Re: NOVAK DJOKOVIC: The Fan Club

by noleisthebest Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:48 pm

Tenez wrote:Looks I just picked a clip on youtube meant to show how good he is:

Look at his shots.....ugly! but helped by amazing footwork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehfNra5K90I

Just saw the clip. Even I can now smile at it and see it as a fan's effort! smiley

The guy who made it clearly does not have a clue what good tennis is.

by Tenez Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:24 pm

Yep...but this fan is certainly showing Djoko's amazing court speed.

by noleisthebest Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:29 pm

Tenez wrote:Yep...but this fan is certainly showing Djoko's amazing court speed.

He is...and the speed is deceptive.
When I watched him in O2 a few years ago, he moved forward like the wind, almost not touching the ground, it was quite amazing.

The movement along the baseline - stretching for the ball is useful, but really ugly.

by Tenez Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:37 pm

Yep. I think he has very powerful legs but a tiny, though muscly, torso, a bit like Froome. His torso can swing around any direction, looks like it moves with a mind of its own like during serve where his upper body suddenly folds down (happens in some other weird shots as well).

But is everywhere and can certainly sends the ball back. The perfect anti-Nadal.....anti everybody I guess nowadays.

by noleisthebest Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:53 pm

Tenez wrote:Yep. I think he has very powerful legs but a tiny, though muscly, torso, a bit like Froome. His torso can swing around any direction, looks like it moves with a mind of its own like during serve where his upper body suddenly folds down (happens in some other weird shots as well).

But is everywhere and can certainly sends the ball back. The perfect anti-Nadal.....anti everybody I guess nowadays.

Yes, and that torso was part of his problem against Nadal for years.
But!

This year at Boodles when he did his customary shirt take-off for the crowd I noticed he has filled out and is not as weak as before, which to me explains the increased power of his shots these days.

He is pretty close to hs perfect/peak physical self right now and will be hard to beat this and next year.

Also agree about the torso mobility. He is quite an athletic specimen in some ways, agility of a gymnast almost.

by paulcz Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:18 pm

Tenez wrote:Paul...it's all about mouvement. Djoko's shots are actually not nice. If he was so amazing as you say he'd have the crowd behind him but the crowd is not buying it, despite loving number 1s.

Take a step out of Djoko....and you will see how mortal he is. However having great mouvement is certainly to his merit. But it's no different praying Nadal for a lot of things like his fans do but take 5% off nadal's power and again he is a poor player.

Ten, I did the comparison of some game aspects between Nole and Murray, your general statement about mouvement is known well.

The crowd doesn't go always behind the better player as it was in Lendl case and when appears somebody coming from Serbia that definitely doesn't help. But I am sure that after this final he will get much more positive crowd responses.
After the final I can see a break of views from many tennis experts as they praise Nole's game at the moment. E.g. John Mac raises Nole's game to heaven and he is not the kind of who would praise BB's job. Even I could hear positive words about Nole's game from Fed after the final.
Current Nole is just a superior player also on grass and he just outplayed Fed by his game. Some half volleys from Nole made Fed stare in awe and that is quite something.

The movement was more important for Fed in the final, as he run more distance and his legs are much more exposed when running around his BH side. Actually there is no top player who runs around his BH more than Fed.

by Tenez Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:34 pm

I did not see Nole outplaying Fed. Fed got the first break and the first 2 set points. And despite being tired and 34 Fed managed to take the second set. So I woudl not call that "outplayed"...but as usual against roadrunners...the word is "outlast", not outplayed!

Yes Fed ran more cause he is being sent to corners by Djoko's DHBH.

Djoko was lucky to play Fed at the end of the slam and not at the beginning....this where the age difference is huge. We will talk about that again when Djoko is 34!

by paulcz Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:06 am

As I have said many times, Fed plays unbelievable tennis at this age, but the way Nole won that match with Fed, there was nothing with outlasting. He clearly won with a help of great serve and superb returning, playing balls close to the BL as possible and got Fed out of his zone. It is known that rushing Fed gradually make more mistakes and shanks more, but that one was forced by Nole’s great game and especially on big points. There was a big risk from playing contra strokes from Nole. Extra low above the net and with precise length. I would appreciate an analysis what was players court positioning on the ball in rallies, but couldn’t find it. It is always academic discussion how much was beaten player affected by wearing down factor or a great game of his opponent. Autumleaf wrote a nice article about mental and physical fatigue and I agree that they go both alongside. But it is also known fact that nearly in all such big competitive matches a first reason for getting an edge is well playing opponent and then the grinding effect follows.

by Tenez Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:29 am

So you saw Djoko tired in the FO final but did not see Fed tired in that Wimbledon final?

I saw Fed tired in that 3rd set v Murray....and say it then despite Fed winning the 3rd set and match.

I am surprised you did not see Fed tired. It was dead obvious....and mentioned by commentators even though they do ther best not to find excuses.

by noleisthebest Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:34 am

paulcz wrote: As I have said many times, Fed plays unbelievable tennis at this age, but the way Nole won that match with Fed, there was nothing with outlasting. He clearly won with a help of great serve and superb returning, playing balls close to the BL as possible and got Fed out of his zone. It is known that rushing Fed gradually make more mistakes and shanks more, but that one was forced by Nole’s great game and especially on big points. There was a big risk from playing contra strokes from Nole. Extra low above the net and with precise length. I would appreciate an analysis what was players court positioning on the ball in rallies, but couldn’t find it. It is always academic discussion how much was beaten player affected by wearing down factor or a great game of his opponent. Autumleaf wrote a nice article about mental and physical fatigue and I agree that they go both alongside. But it is also known fact that nearly in all such big competitive matches a first reason for getting an edge is well playing opponent and then the grinding effect follows.

Yes, Nole played well in the final, better than last year.

However, Fed was better in the first set. The play was on his racquet and Nole was lucky to win it.

As the match went on, Nole kept hammering Fed's BH almost exclusively with the clear intent of wearing him out, like Nadal does.
Two hands on one in these conditions are a huge advantage.

That's why Fed's serve went and he started missing relatively easy FHs.

He was also exhausted from the previous match against Murray and his legs could not keep up any more.

He did well to fight till the end.

So, Nole did not outplay Fed, he outlasted him. Very few players have been able to outplay Fed.

When Nole starts attacking from the first point, then he'll outplay him. He has done it in the past on hard courts when he was younger.

Even he said that they are all baseline players and don't have Fed's talent to win playing at the net.

If he is humble enough to say it in public, no reason why we can't accept it.

by paulcz Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:52 am

I don’t say that Nole won the final by his attacking game, but by his great active allcourt performance. It would be great to read an analysis from former players about players positioning and placing the balls. I see as a quite contrast between winning a match by outlasting and knowing the facts as running shorter distance than his opponent, to win more shorter rallies between 0-4 shots, putting extra risk on the return and highly risky placing when rallying. I thought that winning a match by outlasting is keeping the ball in the court as much as possible and playing a percentage tennis, but I didn't see that in the final.

by Tenez Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:06 am

But Paul...when you say "great active allcourt" performance....you mean in effect Nole was all-over-the-court.

This is what makes Nole so difficult to play. Nothing else. Everythng else (volleys, BH, FHs, serve etc..) can be done better by other players. That's what you don't realise...when it is actually obvious.

You might well want to say how good he is at everything else.....but the key again is his mouvement. Do you remember that 1st point in that 1set TB? That is what put pressure on his opponent. Giving them smaller margins. However if you have power from both wings like STan.....then even Djoko's great mouvement is not enough.

by paulcz Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:24 am

Ten, I put some arguments of Nole's win, why I see his win in the final was not by outlasting as you and Nitb see it. It is funny to read your comments about mouvement again and again.

If anything should be mentioned more often, then it is timing on the ball, that is the core of tennis. You can have legs as Bolt, but if you are not able to hit it, it doesn't help. I am convinced that Murray is faster on the ball as Nole (especially on grass), but look how average his FH is and very the same it is with the Fed's BH. His timing on that side is a bit delayed and plays it a bit more after the ball, therefore it is not so heavily hit against Stan and must use more spin in it. If Fed had Stan's BH, then he would be probably too much for Nole and Nadal as well. But these ifs.

by noleisthebest Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:49 am

paulcz wrote:Ten, I put some arguments of Nole's win, why I see his win in the final was not by outlasting as you and Nitb see it. It is funny to read your comments about mouvement again and again.

If anything should be mentioned more often, then it is timing on the ball, that is the core of tennis. You can have legs as Bolt, but if you are not able to hit it, it doesn't help. I am convinced that Murray is faster on the ball as Nole (especially on grass), but look how average his FH is and very the same it is with the Fed's BH. His timing on that side is a bit delayed and plays it a bit more after the ball, therefore it is not so heavily hit against Stan and must use more spin in it. If Fed had Stan's BH, then he would be probably too much for Nole and Nadal as well. But these ifs.

But if you hammer you opponents SINGLE backhand with your double backhand continually, you are doing it not to outplay them but to tire them out.

Yes, Nole's timing this year has improved considerably and as he filled out his upper body he is hitting the ball harder than ever.
Imagine getting your SBH pounded with those shots....

How would the ONLY arm you play with start feeling after one set?

And what are the consequences of that feeling of weakness and increasing numbness?
In addition, Fed was tired from Murray's match...he needed all the freshness he could get against Nole in the final.

Would it not have been a better match to have both players fresh?
Playing conditions are killing SBH tennis.

DBH is a different sport.

by Tenez Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:51 am

paulcz wrote:Ten, I put some arguments of Nole's win, why I see his win in the final was not by outlasting as you and Nitb see it. It is funny to read your comments about mouvement again and again.

I think that's what everybody says. No different to when people were talking about nadal's power and mouvement.

If anything should be mentioned more often, then it is timing on the ball, that is the core of tennis. You can have legs as Bolt, but if you are not able to hit it, it doesn't help.

But how is timing is different from Garcia Lopez? GL can time the ball beautifully with one hand. Imagine if he had 2 with a bigger sweetspot? Besides Djoko spins the ball a lot..it's all in the wrist with him with a 100inch racquet. I am afraid but you might be the only one who sees that "special timing from Djoko".

I am convinced that Murray is faster on the ball as Nole (especially on grass), but look how average his FH is and very the same it is with the Fed's BH.

I am afraid you that's is pure non-sense. One reason why Fed is successful v Murray is that Fed's BH pace on grass is fast enough to trouble Murray whereas Djoko has time to get to it and more often than not turn it into his FH. Murray moves like a tank in comparison to Djoko....otherwise Murray woudl most likely win.

If Fed had Stan's BH, then he would be probably too much for Nole and Nadal as well. But these ifs.

Yes agree with that. I said it before...v people who can run as much and as fast. Fed's guile on the BH is a bit of a wasted skill. It's like when all McEnroe's touch and guile was destroyed by the new generation which had learnt to play the game with bigger frames. They were hitting harder and McEnroe's game (learnt with a wooden racquet) became obsolete.

fed doesn't belong to the Nadal/Djoko generation but the Pete Sampras one. This is what makes his success at 34 even more outstanding. Had he learnt the game 5 years later...it woudl be a completely different story. He would have adopted the larger frame 15 years ago to start with...his BH would be probably very different.

by paulcz Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:10 am

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:Ten, I put some arguments of Nole's win, why I see his win in the final was not by outlasting as you and Nitb see it. It is funny to read your comments about mouvement again and again.
I think that's what everybody says. No different to when people were talking about nadal's power and mouvement.

If anything should be mentioned more often, then it is timing on the ball, that is the core of tennis. You can have legs as Bolt, but if you are not able to hit it, it doesn't help.
But how is timing is different from Garcia Lopez? GL can time the ball beautifully with one hand. Imagine if he had 2 with a bigger sweetspot? Besides Djoko spins the ball a lot..it's all in the wrist with him with a 100inch racquet. I am afraid but you might be the only one who sees that "special timing from Djoko".

I am convinced that Murray is faster on the ball as Nole (especially on grass), but look how average his FH is and very the same it is with the Fed's BH.
I am afraid you that's is pure non-sense. One reason why Fed is successful v Murray is that Fed's BH pace on grass is fast enough to trouble Murray whereas Djoko has time to get to it and more often than not turn it into his FH. Murray moves like a tank in comparison to Djoko....otherwise Murray woudl most likely win.

If Fed had Stan's BH, then he would be probably too much for Nole and Nadal as well. But these ifs.
Yes agree with that. I said it before...v people who can run as much and as fast. Fed's guile on the BH is a bit of a wasted skill. It's like when all McEnroe's touch and guile was destroyed by the new generation which had learnt to play the game with bigger frames. They were hitting harder and McEnroe's game (learnt with a wooden racquet) became obsolete.

fed doesn't belong to the Nadal/Djoko generation but the Pete Sampras one. This is what makes his success at 34 even more outstanding. Had he learnt the game 5 years later...it woudl be a completely different story. He would have adopted the larger frame 15 years ago to start with...his BH would be probably very different.

Just going for the lunch and then for swiming, so just quick reaction to some points. But still can't see no arguments for outlasting and our discussion moved to different topics.

I see your big turnaround about your view on Stan's BH as I remember that you said that Fed's is much better. But that is ok.

Fed vs. Murray, game wise Murray can absorb Fed's fast balls nicely and take out the serve from Fed and Murray must be a favorite. The reason why Murray lost his match is Murray's poor mentality, especially on key points and his poor second serve.

You didnt get my view on Murrays speed right. I mentioned his absolute speed on the court as it is faster than Nole's, but as I said it is not only prerequisition for better hitting / timing of the ball.

Re the best timing of hitting my view is that the best timing on BH side have Nishi and Nole, on FH side Fed and not playing Delpo. Tbh I cant classify Garcia now, I would need to look at him.

Sorry for not commenting in the proper order. I will look at our discussion in the evening.

by Tenez Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:20 am

This is one comment I made during Fed's semi v Murray. I also said that day that Fed will struggle to be on form in the final after a gruelling semi v Murray.

Re: Day 11 - Wimbledon
Post by Tenez on Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:03 pm

fed is now tired. That's where I guess age shows.....but also the kind of tennis he is asked to play...which was not the case in the past.

So the "excuse" about Fed being tired was noted while Fed played one of his best match.....as I simply saw that Fed looked tired.

by Tenez Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:40 am

paulcz wrote:[

I see your big turnaround about your view on Stan's BH as I remember that you said that Fed's is much better. But that is ok.

I change my mind when I see the obvious...unlike many here. But There is no turn around here. On grass I'd take Fed's BH over Stan cause simply Fed has got much quicker hands and that was very helpful to get through the rounds versus the toughest servers, especially on the return. I am not sure Stan woudl have beaten Murray or Djoko. Far from it actually. I cannot see Fed losing to Gasquet on grass either. And finally, despite having less power I am pretty convinced that Fed woudl have beaten Djoko in teh semi or at an earlier round. He did beat him in Dubai on a fast surface just 4 months ago. Problem is that fed was a shadow of his Friday's performance. It seems only you and Djoko's fan can't see it. At 34 you don't recover from tough matches. Having said that, If Fed had Stan powerful BH then completely agree it woudl help hugely....but only v Djoko..against everybody else, Fed's BH and variety is actually better.

Fed vs. Murray, game wise Murray can absorb Fed's fast balls nicely and take out the serve from Fed and Murray must be a favorite. The reason why Murray lost his match is Murray's poor mentality, especially on key points and his poor second serve.

I am afraid you are losing a bit of objectivity....And what about Djoko's mentality to lose his serve in that first set to love? what about Djoko's poor "mentality" to lose that 2nd set from having 7 or 8 SPs?

You didnt get my view on Murrays speed right. I mentioned his absolute speed on the court as it is faster than Nole's, but as I said it is not only prerequisition for better hitting / timing of the ball.

No and I still don't get it. Djoko is much quicker off the blocks and quicker in general. There is no comparison. Not close.

Re the best timing of hitting my view is that the best timing on BH side have Nishi and Nole, on FH side Fed and not playing Delpo. Tbh I cant classify Garcia now, I would need to look at him.

Timing is timing. Stan has a bigger sweetspot than Fed due to the way his racquet moves through the ball and Stan has probably a much tighter grip. Fed throws his racquet so is more likely to mistime..while Djoko plays with big margins but more importantly he is there with time to spare, hence much easier to time.....and thank god for that cause his shots are actually pretty average.

Sorry for not commenting in the proper order. I will look at our discussion in the evening

.

Enjoy...my time away starts tomorrow.

by noleisthebest Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:14 pm

Tenez wrote:But Paul...when you say "great active allcourt" performance....you mean in effect Nole was all-over-the-court.

This is what makes Nole so difficult to play. Nothing else. Everythng else (volleys, BH, FHs, serve etc..) can be done better by other players. That's what you don't realise...when it is actually obvious.

You might well want to say how good he is at everything else.....but the key again is his mouvement. Do you remember that 1st point in that 1set TB? That is what put pressure on his opponent. Giving them smaller margins. However if you have power from both wings like STan.....then even Djoko's great mouvement is not enough.

His returning is quite good, in the Bolletieri/Agassi kind of way.

by noleisthebest Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:20 pm

Tenez wrote:Enjoy...my time away starts tomorrow.

Ou allez-vous cet ete?

by Tenez Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:30 pm

a week in deauville, chamonix and Cassis.

by noleisthebest Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:46 pm

Lovely...lucky you!

by Tenez Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:49 pm

Yes, Thanks. I might stop by the pine a couple of days too. next week.

by noleisthebest Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:03 pm

Sigh a big hello from me!
...and have a super time.

I assume you are going to Chamonix to add red blood cells. Winking

by Tenez Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:23 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Sigh a big hello from me!
...and have a super time.

I assume you are going to Chamonix to add red blood cells.

More for the food and wine actually. I'd give my blood and a wimbledon title for a good meal!

by noleisthebest Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:24 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Sigh a big hello from me!
...and have a super time.

I assume you are going to Chamonix to add red blood cells.
More for the food and wine actually. I'd give my blood and a wimbledon title for a good meal!

A true Frenchman! chef

Enjoy and think of us here..... Wah

by paulcz Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:32 pm

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:[

I see your big turnaround about your view on Stan's BH as I remember that you said that Fed's is much better. But that is ok.
I change my mind when I see the obvious...unlike many here. But There is no turn around here. On grass I'd take Fed's BH over Stan cause simply Fed has got much quicker hands and that was very helpful to get through the rounds versus the toughest servers, especially on the return. I am not sure Stan woudl have beaten Murray or Djoko. Far from it actually. I cannot see Fed losing to Gasquet on grass either. And finally, despite having less power I am pretty convinced that Fed woudl have beaten Djoko in teh semi or at an earlier round. He did beat him in Dubai on a fast surface just 4 months ago. Problem is that fed was a shadow of his Friday's performance. It seems only you and Djoko's fan can't see it. At 34 you don't recover from tough matches. Having said that, If Fed had Stan powerful BH then completely agree it woudl help hugely....but only v Djoko..against everybody else, Fed's BH and variety is actually better.

Fed vs. Murray, game wise Murray can absorb Fed's fast balls nicely and take out the serve from Fed and Murray must be a favorite. The reason why Murray lost his match is Murray's poor mentality, especially on key points and his poor second serve.
I am afraid you are losing a bit of objectivity....And what about Djoko's mentality to lose his serve in that first set to love? what about Djoko's poor "mentality" to lose that 2nd set from having 7 or 8 SPs?

You didnt get my view on Murrays speed right. I mentioned his absolute speed on the court as it is faster than Nole's, but as I said it is not only prerequisition for better hitting / timing of the ball.
No and I still don't get it. Djoko is much quicker off the blocks and quicker in general. There is no comparison. Not close.

Re the best timing of hitting my view is that the best timing on BH side have Nishi and Nole, on FH side Fed and not playing Delpo. Tbh I cant classify Garcia now, I would need to look at him.
Timing is timing. Stan has a bigger sweetspot than Fed due to the way his racquet moves through the ball and Stan has probably a much tighter grip. Fed throws his racquet so is more likely to mistime..while Djoko plays with big margins but more importantly he is there with time to spare, hence much easier to time.....and thank god for that cause his shots are actually pretty average.

Sorry for not commenting in the proper order. I will look at our discussion in the evening
.

Enjoy...my time away starts tomorrow.

Just some my comments and enjoy Tour de France!

Fed vs. Stan re BH - good for you to recognize it. There is a huge difference in timing. Stan hits the ball early, although his position is further behind the BL, but more from closed stance and definitely more flat than Fed. Current Fed's racket has size 97 inches, which is equal to Stan's Yonex VCore. Just check that.

Murray's chance to win against Fed - no lost objectivity from my side. There are a lot of experts views, which point out the brilliant serve from Fed. Look at the statistics, compare their aces and difference at winning 2nd serve and their total winning balls are the same. Murray's rallying just can get Fed out of his comfort zone easily.

The quality of the wing can be easily confirmed by winners. Nole excells in that area. Fed's BH is nice, but definitely it produces much more errors against all top players. That is the reality.

Re speed: who has the edge in absolute speed Nole or Murray. I see Murray's forward move as fastest against Nole. I remember Lendl's view on Murray athleticism as he said that Murray has amazingly fast legs for sprints and he has very good predispositions for it. My tennis friends who saw Murray on the court on live also said that he is incredibly fast forward and that it is only his problem, that he doesn't go to the net more often. Nole's forward move is visibly slower and less dynamic. Fed has also much better forward move than Nole and his body explosivness still edges Nole and even Murray. Just juiced Nadal was competitive in that area, but he played instead on the net 5 meters behind the BL.
Your comment about Nole is valid also for Fed as any other top player. Without such a great move he would be a normal average player. Going to the net requires much better and more explosive movement than for baseliners, that is the fact.

Enjoy french wine and Chardoney especially Bubbly

by Tenez Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:49 pm

paulcz wrote:

Fed vs. Stan re BH - good for you to recognize it. There is a huge difference in timing. Stan hits the ball early, although his position is further behind the BL, but more from closed stance and definitely more flat than Fed. Current Fed's racket has size 97 inches, which is equal to Stan's Yonex VCore. Just check that.

takes the ball earlier from further back the BL???
The Yonex has a bigger sweetspot ( I played with both) but above all it's essentially that Stan has a firmer writ. Doesn't whip the ball like Fed. As I said depends on who and where you play but Fed is the only one whose BH allowed him to win slams for the last 12 years. Now Stan has done better but only in long gruelling slams....Fed still does better than Stan on teh rest of the tour...including Wimbledon.

Murray's chance to win against Fed - no lost objectivity from my side. There are a lot of experts views, which point out the brilliant serve from Fed. Look at the statistics, compare their aces and difference at winning 2nd serve and their total winning balls are the same. Murray's rallying just can get Fed out of his comfort zone easily.

Right...and...vice versa. As far as I can see Fed has been regularly lessoning Murray over the last 5 years!

The quality of the wing can be easily confirmed by winners. Nole excells in that area. Fed's BH is nice, but definitely it produces much more errors against all top players. That is the reality.

But he still goes further and is ranked higher than any other SHBH.....that is the reality. Djoko with a SHBH would not make the top 10....if 20! Nor would he make the top 20 in the 90s where SVing was everything.

Re speed: who has the edge in absolute speed Nole or Murray. I see Murray's forward move as fastest against Nole. I remember Lendl's view on Murray athleticism as he said that Murray has amazingly fast legs for sprints and he has very good predispositions for it. My tennis friends who saw Murray on the court on live also said that he is incredibly fast forward and that it is only his problem, that he doesn't go to the net more often. Nole's forward move is visibly slower and less dynamic. Fed has also much better forward move than Nole and his body explosivness still edges Nole and even Murray. Just juiced Nadal was competitive in that area, but he played instead on the net 5 meters behind the BL.
Your comment about Nole is valid also for Fed as any other top player. Without such a great move he would be a normal average player. Going to the net requires much better and more explosive movement than for baseliners, that is the fact.

No. DIsagree. Djoko is faster....it's not close. No need to watch them both live ( I saw them). On TV when they are playing against each other, it's so easy to see who is the fastest...in particular off the starting blocks...which is essential in tennis.

Enjoy french wine and Chardoney especially

Thanks my friend. I'll log every now and then though I suspect nothing will happen before Canada..

by paulcz Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:09 am

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:

Fed vs. Stan re BH - good for you to recognize it. There is a huge difference in timing. Stan hits the ball early, although his position is further behind the BL, but more from closed stance and definitely more flat than Fed. Current Fed's racket has size 97 inches, which is equal to Stan's Yonex VCore. Just check that.
takes the ball earlier from further back the BL???
The Yonex has a bigger sweetspot ( I played with both) but above all it's essentially that Stan has a firmer writ. Doesn't whip the ball like Fed. As I said depends on who and where you play but Fed is the only one whose BH allowed him to win slams for the last 12 years. Now Stan has done better but only in long gruelling slams....Fed still does better than Stan on teh rest of the tour...including Wimbledon.

Murray's chance to win against Fed - no lost objectivity from my side. There are a lot of experts views, which point out the brilliant serve from Fed. Look at the statistics, compare their aces and difference at winning 2nd serve and their total winning balls are the same. Murray's rallying just can get Fed out of his comfort zone easily.
Right...and...vice versa. As far as I can see Fed has been regularly lessoning Murray over the last 5 years!

The quality of the wing can be easily confirmed by winners. Nole excells in that area. Fed's BH is nice, but definitely it produces much more errors against all top players. That is the reality.
But he still goes further and is ranked higher than any other SHBH.....that is the reality. Djoko with a SHBH would not make the top 10....if 20! Nor would he make the top 20 in the 90s where SVing was everything.

Re speed: who has the edge in absolute speed Nole or Murray. I see Murray's forward move as fastest against Nole. I remember Lendl's view on Murray athleticism as he said that Murray has amazingly fast legs for sprints and he has very good predispositions for it. My tennis friends who saw Murray on the court on live also said that he is incredibly fast forward and that it is only his problem, that he doesn't go to the net more often. Nole's forward move is visibly slower and less dynamic. Fed has also much better forward move than Nole and his body explosivness still edges Nole and even Murray. Just juiced Nadal was competitive in that area, but he played instead on the net 5 meters behind the BL.
Your comment about Nole is valid also for Fed as any other top player. Without such a great move he would be a normal average player. Going to the net requires much better and more explosive movement than for baseliners, that is the fact.
No. DIsagree. Djoko is faster....it's not close. No need to watch them both live ( I saw them). On TV when they are playing against each other, it's so easy to see who is the fastest...in particular off the starting blocks...which is essential in tennis.

Enjoy french wine and Chardoney especially
Thanks my friend. I'll log every now and then though I suspect nothing will happen before Canada..

Just to wide out more info about BH side>
Stan leans more toward the ball and plays more often from closed stance with a support his strong body, so that the ball is hit more in front of his body. But there is one thing very visible and important and that is that Stan likes hitting BH. Fed has often problem with his timing on BH side, because he also thinks about running around it if it is possible, which takes his time and gradually he hits later and later as his body is more worn out. When Fed plays higher balls he can't get on the ball with a power of Stan and plays is with a high spin, which generates a lot of shanks. In addition to his not 100% healthy back, that is the achilles heel of his game. But Feds body positioning is more fore court against Stan.

Back to my best active tennis times, once I tried to play with Richard Krajicek Yonex racket, I needed to sell early, because it demolished my elbow. I did not play with more stiff racket, maybe Dunlop Revelation was also made from titanium.
I tried to play with some Wilsons, but they did not give me such a control for my game, so I stays with my Dunlops for good 25 years.
I thought that Fed's new racket was 96inches but looking at the website there is even 97 inches in the racket name, which is ProStaffPro Staff RF97. When looking at the Stan's racket, VCORE Tour G, there is officially stated 97 inches as well, but exact 625.81 sq. cm and Feds racket states 626 sq. cm, which is practically the same. Federer's racket should be about 10-15 grams lighter against Stan's.

I like that you also see that Murray's game is competitive with Fed's.

So, we have practically just one different view on current points and it is absolute forward speed between Nole and Murray, but that one stays with us, unless somebody is able to give some exact measure. We need somebody to get them both in starting blocks and a starting pistol. Not easy one. I start being quite curious. My bet on 100m/200m/400m is on Murray, but everything else except sprints is on Nole.

by paulcz Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:57 am

Congratulations to both fantastic players for their performance. Not sure if we, fans, will experience another a rivalry such players. I couldnt watch it onlive, but having seen match statistics and telerecording, watching this was not anything for weaker nature. Thanks to both great players and hat off to Nole, he has become a phenomen of tennis drama Bubbly

by paulcz Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:51 am

Having watched most of the match I must say that one was one of the toughest match for a player facing such a hostile atmosphere. I have never seen so many idiots in the crowd cheering for double faults and player's mistakes except Davis cup matches, where national spirit completely rules. Therefore his win is more deserved and tastes much more Bubbly

The biggest credit to Novak how he kept his nerves during the whole match.

I must say that my initial view on Boris was wrong. Now I am convinced that Boris has become a big help for Nole and his trace on Novak's performance is pretty much visible.

Many cheers for Novak, Boris Winking

. all members his team and his true fans Magic

by Tenez Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:09 am

Told you about the crowd. But is essentially down to the fact it is a big stadium and therefore everyone feels very anonymous there and can let his/her excitement out.

But it is also sickening for a Fed fan to see that the guy has no choice but to paint 3 lines to win a point against such athleticism. Clearly this is not what tennis fans chose to play or watch tennis in the first place.

by paulcz Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:58 am

Tenez wrote:Told you about the crowd. But is essentially down to the fact it is a big stadium and therefore everyone feels very anonymous there and can let his/her excitement out.

But it is also sickening for a Fed fan to see that the guy has no choice but to paint 3 lines to win a point against such athleticism. Clearly this is not what tennis fans chose to play or watch tennis in the first place.

This crowd was nearly unplayable for anybody else, except Nole. Wimbledon finals atmospheres are against it like forest harmony even there is 5k less . It is a sheer disaster what kind of fans came there for the final. Idiots it is not the word for them.

Fed lost this match in his head, that is sure. Painting lines didn't play a substantial role in it.

Re movement, Nole knew that he must make Fed running, which requires to play also into his FH. It is a heavy task for Fed do a running around his BH and play FH and then to scamper to FH side. Therefore Fed played BH quite well, but did more mistakes on his FH on his usual standard. So that making a lot of mistakes on FH side is not a sign that his FH works badly, but it is due to Nole's active game. For sure.
Anyway Fed's footwork at this UO was one of the best I have ever seen.

Tbh I find Nole's matches as the most interisting and revealing the tennis games patterns,, of course when playing against attackers. I admire his strong mentality, how he takes challenges, how he gets ready for the biggest rivals, how he has improved in all areas, which haven't been his strongest. He has already become a phenomen.

by Tenez Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:36 pm

Djoko is the new nadal. It's as simple as that. Sure he takes the ball earlier than Nadal but he can only do that because his pace on teh court is even much better.

With a DHBH Djoko woudl have struggled to score a game. It's not so much an age/fitness difference than a generation difference. Djoko learnt the game like someone who is not very good at shot making and thankfully this is an era where fitness is everything.

by paulcz Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:11 pm

Tenez wrote:Djoko is the new nadal. It's as simple as that. Sure he takes the ball earlier than Nadal but he can only do that because his pace on teh court is even much better.

With a DHBH Djoko woudl have struggled to score a game. It's not so much an age/fitness difference than a generation difference. Djoko learnt the game like someone who is not very good at shot making and thankfully this is an era where fitness is everything.

It is funny to read your view on players. I thought that you think Nole is a kind of new Hewit Winking

Novak is made from different material and he has raised his game to the level, which Nadal or anybody else just can't reach it.

Fed is only player who can keep up on the court with Nole on fast surfaces, but it is just due to his brilliant serve. Of course he can slip due to lack of concentration or poor mental focus on the match, but when he is really challenged, he is awesome. . As I have always said players body speed is for nothing, when they lack timing. Nole is very quick not only on his legs, but just can time his shots superbly, as it also shows his amazing returning ....I know that your idea is due to movement, what is behind.

Come back to the main match reason, Fed suffered mentally heavy loss, because he was not succesful in crucial points of the match. That has nothing to do with legs or timing. That was a clear key. Just to open eyes.

by Tenez Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:24 pm

paulcz wrote:It is funny to read your view on players. I thought that you think Nole is a kind of new Hewit

Novak is made from different material and he has raised his game to the level, which Nadal or anybody else just can't reach it

I don't deny that. But maybe you were too young to remember but Hewitt was successful thanks to his retrieving skills. All I am saying is that Djoko brought that to a new level.

Fed is only player who can keep up on the court with Nole on fast surfaces, but it is just due to his brilliant serve. Of course he can slip due to lack of concentration or poor mental focus on the match, but when he is really challenged, he is awesome. . As I have always said players body speed is for nothing, when they lack timing. Nole is very quick not only on his legs, but just can time his shots superbly, as it also shows his amazing returning ....I know that your idea is due to movement, what is behind.

But you fail to note that Djoko's timing is based in his mouvement...not timing alone. Despite being twice as fast as Fed and able to rely on a secure DHBH, the match was ridiculously close. So imagine if Djoko was a step slower and had a SHBH. It woudl be extremely one sided in Fed's favour...or simply imagine a 34yo Fed v a 34yo Djoko. or again who will Djoko be facing when he is 34. Fed only relies on his genius to be there fighting a close match versus a modern road runners.
I guess 99% were behind Federer cause they know it was fed trying to break that consistency and monotony from Djoko. Can you at least see that Djoko's shots are pretty ugly?

Come back to the main match reason, Fed suffered mentally heavy loss, because he was not succesful in crucial points of the match. That has nothing to do with legs or timing. That was a clear key. Just to open eyes.

Right but have you already shut your eyes about Djoko losing to Stan at teh FO? or even Djoko losing to 34yo Federer in Cincy 3 weeks ago?

by paulcz Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:06 pm

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:It is funny to read your view on players. I thought that you think Nole is a kind of new Hewit

Novak is made from different material and he has raised his game to the level, which Nadal or anybody else just can't reach it
I don't deny that. But maybe you were too young to remember but Hewitt was successful thanks to his retrieving skills. All I am saying is that Djoko brought that to a new level.

Fed is only player who can keep up on the court with Nole on fast surfaces, but it is just due to his brilliant serve. Of course he can slip due to lack of concentration or poor mental focus on the match, but when he is really challenged, he is awesome. . As I have always said players body speed is for nothing, when they lack timing. Nole is very quick not only on his legs, but just can time his shots superbly, as it also shows his amazing returning ....I know that your idea is due to movement, what is behind.
But you fail to note that Djoko's timing is based in his mouvement...not timing alone. Despite being twice as fast as Fed and able to rely on a secure DHBH, the match was ridiculously close. So imagine if Djoko was a step slower and had a SHBH. It woudl be extremely one sided in Fed's favour...or simply imagine a 34yo Fed v a 34yo Djoko. or again who will Djoko be facing when he is 34. Fed only relies on his genius to be there fighting a close match versus a modern road runners.
I guess 99% were behind Federer cause they know it was fed trying to break that consistency and monotony from Djoko. Can you at least see that Djoko's shots are pretty ugly?

Come back to the main match reason, Fed suffered mentally heavy loss, because he was not succesful in crucial points of the match. That has nothing to do with legs or timing. That was a clear key. Just to open eyes.
Right but have you already shut your eyes about Djoko losing to Stan at teh FO? or even Djoko losing to 34yo Federer in Cincy 3 weeks ago?

Ten, not too young, a couple over 4X Big Grin

I remember Hewit well, he was a great fighter as well. But current Nole is better in all areas and think Nole has leveled his volleying as well. Novak creates the game, he tries new patterns, he can do what he wants on the court, whereas Hewit just hanged in his matches on the rope and run and fought. There is a difference as Grand Canyon.

Re Ugly shots. His body frame is just not well bulit as Stan's, Tsonga's bodies, and he had played mostly shots from open stance a year before, which didn't give him enough weight. This year he just started playing winners, especially on his FH from closed stance, which gives him more power. He hasn't just fully transformed this kind of shots. I see here a big improvement and notice already at Wimbledon that Fed had full hands with Nole's FH crossed balls.
Yes, Fed's body swing looks the best, no doubt, but it has nothing to do that he is often too late on his BH side.

Nole plays exactly what he and his team thinks will be enough. This year RG he went through Nadal and Murray and all members his team thought that Nole's standard game would be enough with Stan. But Stan likes the careful game and he hits heavily. Nole was mentally drained and just was not ready to switch to another mode. Tbh, I must say that his loss at RG, helped a lot to Nole so that he started playing much more active both finals against Fed and his overal approach was much better.

I can't get why Nole played doubles in Cincy, when he suffered a loss with Murray, when he looked quite tired. Just he wanted to help his fellow Tipsy, which is really nice. Nole did not look the whole week and had no energy to fight it out. Tbh Cincy trophy is the most ugly from all and Nole doesn't feel good there.

We had a couple of discussion about IFs. I think I can add some ideas later, but it is not worthy in post USO discussion at this moment. Fed really playes his best tennis currently and his serve is the best ever. Therefore every true tennis fan should give a credit to Novak, how he handled the final in front of idiots in AA stadium.

Now, one IF. If Fed played against Murray in front of these assholes, then Fed would take it in 80 minutes, Murray would win about 8 games at max. Once again, if somebody has won a GS title deservedly then it is Novak Djokovic Thumbs Up

by Tenez Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:59 pm

paulcz wrote:Ten, not too young, a couple over 4X I remember Hewit well, he was a great fighter as well. But current Nole is better in all areas and think Nole has leveled his volleying as well. Novak creates the game, he tries new patterns, he can do what he wants on the court, whereas Hewit just hanged in his matches on the rope and run and fought. There is a difference as Grand Canyon.

What I am saying. A Grand Canyon difference in fitness. BTW, are you kidding about Djoko's vollleying skills?

Re Ugly shots. His body frame is just not well bulit as Stan's, Tsonga's bodies, and he had played mostly shots from open stance a year before, which didn't give him enough weight. This year he just started playing winners, especially on his FH from closed stance, which gives him more power. He hasn't just fully transformed this kind of shots. I see here a big improvement and notice already at Wimbledon that Fed had full hands with Nole's FH crossed balls.
Yes, Fed's body swing looks the best, no doubt, but it has nothing to do that he is often too late on his BH side.

Nah...I cannpt buy that sorry Paul. Nothing explains such weird serving motion, breaking in body in half for pulling a slice, or this weird wrist rotation for pulling a FH. It's efficient don't get me wrong.....but not inspiring. I maintain that without his foot speed, all those weird shots would be badly exposed.

Nole plays exactly what he and his team thinks will be enough. This year RG he went through Nadal and Murray and all members his team thought that Nole's standard game would be enough with Stan. But Stan likes the careful game and he hits heavily. Nole was mentally drained and just was not ready to switch to another mode. Tbh, I must say that his loss at RG, helped a lot to Nole so that he started playing much more active both finals against Fed and his overal approach was much better.

yes but again had Fed executed a little bit better yesterday he woudl have lost. In a way he was lucky Fed struggled with his first serve in that first set. The match was clearly in fed's racquet yesterday...though I agree Djoko's speed made the targets much smaller for Fed and that added its fair share of pressure.

Now, one IF. If Fed played against Murray in front of these assholes, then Fed would take it in 80 minutes, Murray would win about 8 games at max. Once again, if somebody has won a GS title deservedly then it is Novak Djokovic

The only reason why Fed woudl have been more relaxed v Murray is that Murray moves like a tank in comparison to Djko..making targets bigger, hence more relaxed on the mind.

by paulcz Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:27 pm

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:Ten, not too young, a couple over 4X I remember Hewit well, he was a great fighter as well. But current Nole is better in all areas and think Nole has leveled his volleying as well. Novak creates the game, he tries new patterns, he can do what he wants on the court, whereas Hewit just hanged in his matches on the rope and run and fought. There is a difference as Grand Canyon.
What I am saying. A Grand Canyon difference in fitness. BTW, are you kidding about Djoko's vollleying skills?

Re Ugly shots. His body frame is just not well bulit as Stan's, Tsonga's bodies, and he had played mostly shots from open stance a year before, which didn't give him enough weight. This year he just started playing winners, especially on his FH from closed stance, which gives him more power. He hasn't just fully transformed this kind of shots. I see here a big improvement and notice already at Wimbledon that Fed had full hands with Nole's FH crossed balls.
Yes, Fed's body swing looks the best, no doubt, but it has nothing to do that he is often too late on his BH side.
Nah...I cannpt buy that sorry Paul. Nothing explains such weird serving motion, breaking in body in half for pulling a slice, or this weird wrist rotation for pulling a FH. It's efficient don't get me wrong.....but not inspiring. I maintain that without his foot speed, all those weird shots would be badly exposed.

Nole plays exactly what he and his team thinks will be enough. This year RG he went through Nadal and Murray and all members his team thought that Nole's standard game would be enough with Stan. But Stan likes the careful game and he hits heavily. Nole was mentally drained and just was not ready to switch to another mode. Tbh, I must say that his loss at RG, helped a lot to Nole so that he started playing much more active both finals against Fed and his overal approach was much better.
yes but again had Fed executed a little bit better yesterday he woudl have lost. In a way he was lucky Fed struggled with his first serve in that first set. The match was clearly in fed's racquet yesterday...though I agree Djoko's speed made the targets much smaller for Fed and that added its fair share of pressure.

Now, one IF. If Fed played against Murray in front of these assholes, then Fed would take it in 80 minutes, Murray would win about 8 games at max. Once again, if somebody has won a GS title deservedly then it is Novak Djokovic
The only reason why Fed woudl have been more relaxed v Murray is that Murray moves like a tank in comparison to Djko..making targets bigger, hence more relaxed on the mind.

You write the same ideas about movement, it is useless. I see that you say Nole is so good only due to his movement and his returns are so good cause of his movement as well. I dont agree and see him as a great complete player without a real weakness, much mentally tougher than Fed.
And here my contra question, do you think that Fed without such a brilliant footwork could play such brilliant volleys? I will answer it by myself, no way. Sorry for that. It is round and round again. So, we can end up a discussion about movement here.

Novak has improved his overhead smashing to very good level and can play decent volleys as well. I see that you appreciate Lleyton volleying skill, which is good Winking

Nole's serve motion is very smooth, his loop is done superbly well. Once we analyzed on video and his elbow backward range is the best on circuit, so his serve is currently one of the best as Wimbledon final showed as well. Here you need to look better. Only thins he could add to his serve is bigger hip swing, but he protects his body in his favor here.

His FH grip is bit extreme, between SW or W earlier, but his improvent at stance and swing belongs to the best on the circuit. Look at some slow motion of his forehand at youtube. He uses his wrist more just due his grip and it is ok. Players who use more East grip holding can't use their wrist so much and their swing then look cleaner. But no problem.

Re slides, he is DHBHer, so for him is not playing slides as natural against Lopez or Fed. He uses more stretched elbow and finishes his sliding move a bit with it, so it doesnt look as elegant and is not so fast swing, but he also improved that a lot.

Murray has still problem with footwork on his FH side where he loses time. The biggest problem is his poor mentality, which reflects his passive approach. We also had a discussion about a comparison with Nole.

Not that I would not continue and repeat some ideas again, but there are many other more interisting questions. The question of the day should be how is it is possible that Fed, who looked through all USO so relaxed and cool started the final so rushed and irritated. It reminded me his matches against Nadal in period a couple years ago. His BP conversion was the worst I could see for a long time, which is very similar to Nadal's matches. On top of it, Nadal had much bigger fans support than Novak, so here it was quite understandable. But why relaxed Fed could choke 20 out of 23 BP with 90% support of the crowds. Doesn't it show a difference in mental toughness?

by Tenez Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:55 pm

paulcz wrote:You write the same ideas about movement, it is useless. I see that you say Nole is so good only due to his movement and his returns are so good cause of his movement as well. I dont agree and see him as a great complete player without a real weakness, much mentally tougher than Fed.
And here my contra question, do you think that Fed without such a brilliant footwork could play such brilliant volleys? I will answer it by myself, no way. Sorry for that. It is round and round again. So, we can end up a discussion about movement here.

Of course footwork is essential. I am talking about the extend of fitness. So don't you agree that Nadal was also very complete when he was winning everything? Like nadal, Djoko will never be remembered for his talent...and certainly not for his shots makings.

Nole's serve motion is very smooth, his loop is done superbly well. Once we analyzed on video and his elbow backward range is the best on circuit, so his serve is currently one of the best as Wimbledon final showed as well. Here you need to look better. Only thins he could add to his serve is bigger hip swing, but he protects his body in his favor here.

With a bit more talent, Djoko, 6'2 shoudl have a much better serve. Again Djoko will never be remembered for his serve.

His FH grip is bit extreme, between SW or W earlier, but his improvent at stance and swing belongs to the best on the circuit. Look at some slow motion of his forehand at youtube. He uses his wrist more just due his grip and it is ok. Players who use more East grip holding can't use their wrist so much and their swing then look cleaner. But no problem.

Agut and many more have a better FH.

Not that I would not continue and repeat some ideas again, but there are many other more interisting questions. The question of the day should be how is it is possible that Fed, who looked through all USO so relaxed and cool started the final so rushed and irritated. It reminded me his matches against Nadal in period a couple years ago. His BP conversion was the worst I could see for a long time, which is very similar to Nadal's matches. On top of it, Nadal had much bigger fans support than Novak, so here it was quite understandable. But why relaxed Fed could choke 20 out of 23 BP with 90% support of the crowds. Doesn't it show a difference in mental toughness?

Exactly same as with Nadal....cause it is the same challenge. If you don't close it now you will down teh line. It's a fitness thing. Everything tends to show that but only fans don't want to see it. They are happy, like Kim was, to stress on all the other factors and dismiss the real weapon of their champion.

by paulcz Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:02 pm

Novak Djokovic Clinches Year-end No. 1 Emirates ATP Ranking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTQxtUUJAN4

by paulcz Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:20 pm

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:You write the same ideas about movement, it is useless. I see that you say Nole is so good only due to his movement and his returns are so good cause of his movement as well. I dont agree and see him as a great complete player without a real weakness, much mentally tougher than Fed.
And here my contra question, do you think that Fed without such a brilliant footwork could play such brilliant volleys? I will answer it by myself, no way. Sorry for that. It is round and round again. So, we can end up a discussion about movement here.
Of course footwork is essential. I am talking about the extend of fitness. So don't you agree that Nadal was also very complete when he was winning everything? Like nadal, Djoko will never be remembered for his talent...and certainly not for his shots makings.

Nole's serve motion is very smooth, his loop is done superbly well. Once we analyzed on video and his elbow backward range is the best on circuit, so his serve is currently one of the best as Wimbledon final showed as well. Here you need to look better. Only thins he could add to his serve is bigger hip swing, but he protects his body in his favor here.
With a bit more talent, Djoko, 6'2 shoudl have a much better serve. Again Djoko will never be remembered for his serve.

His FH grip is bit extreme, between SW or W earlier, but his improvent at stance and swing belongs to the best on the circuit. Look at some slow motion of his forehand at youtube. He uses his wrist more just due his grip and it is ok. Players who use more East grip holding can't use their wrist so much and their swing then look cleaner. But no problem.
Agut and many more have a better FH.

Not that I would not continue and repeat some ideas again, but there are many other more interisting questions. The question of the day should be how is it is possible that Fed, who looked through all USO so relaxed and cool started the final so rushed and irritated. It reminded me his matches against Nadal in period a couple years ago. His BP conversion was the worst I could see for a long time, which is very similar to Nadal's matches. On top of it, Nadal had much bigger fans support than Novak, so here it was quite understandable. But why relaxed Fed could choke 20 out of 23 BP with 90% support of the crowds. Doesn't it show a difference in mental toughness?
Exactly same as with Nadal....cause it is the same challenge. If you don't close it now you will down teh line. It's a fitness thing. Everything tends to show that but only fans don't want to see it. They are happy, like Kim was, to stress on all the other factors and dismiss the real weapon of their champion.

Ten, buddy, cheer up, you are not that young, aren't you Bubbly

Everybody choose their favorite based on his preference and fans will adore and remember their players for many things. I think that Novak will surely get much bigger credit later.

Re mental tougness. It is up to every player if he wants to go for a higher risk or stay in a rally when having BP. BP conversion has nothing to do with legs or stamina. If a player has 23 BPs and gets just 3, which represents 13%, it is just misery. In addition to that Nole didn't serve particularly well on these BP and plus crowd effect in Fed's favor. Fed was just mentally poor.

by Daniel Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:15 am

I'm going to make a prediction that Novak wins either 0 or 1 Slam next year. Everyone thinks it will be 2 or 3, but I don't. I think this was his last great year and if the overwhelming stats are to be believed, it will fit in with the usual trend. I am not sure if he has secured ye#1 but next year is going to be a very very bad time for Novak.

He ain't defending those 16000 points. Believe me Winking

You're going to see the start of Djokovic's slide into the abyss.

by noleisthebest Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:11 am

FedererKing wrote:I'm going to make a prediction that Novak wins either 0 or 1 Slam next year. Everyone thinks it will be 2 or 3, but I don't. I think this was his last great year and if the overwhelming stats are to be believed, it will fit in with the usual trend. I am not sure if he has secured ye#1 but next year is going to be a very very bad time for Novak.

He ain't defending those 16000 points. Believe me You're going to see the start of Djokovic's slide into the abyss.

Is that because he only won one slam in 2012 post his super 2011?

Don't forget, he had Nadal to physically challenge him then, and since Nadal looks done now, Murray is the next most physical test if he can get through QFs and SFs.

Right now, only Federer can challenge (rested) Djokovic in slams. Not in RG if they keep those awful balls, though.

by paulcz Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:26 am

FedererKing wrote:I'm going to make a prediction that Novak wins either 0 or 1 Slam next year. Everyone thinks it will be 2 or 3, but I don't. I think this was his last great year and if the overwhelming stats are to be believed, it will fit in with the usual trend. I am not sure if he has secured ye#1 but next year is going to be a very very bad time for Novak.

He ain't defending those 16000 points. Believe me You're going to see the start of Djokovic's slide into the abyss.

Right, the chance to defend 16000 points is hardly feasible.

To predict the amount of won GS is not easy task. It depends on many things, i.e. competition, healthy, surface conditions, draw and also luck plays a big role in it.

Winning of GS is an incredible achievement nowadays. We still have 4 top players, who can do it nearly on all surfaces, Stan definitely replaced Nadal. Fed will be at his 35, Stan 31, Nole & Murray 29, so still ageing should be in Nole & Murray favour.

Tbh I dont see anybody from the youth who could sneak in top 5 currently. Both young aussies are crazy, Rao's body frame is a hamper, Vesely lacks stronger mentality. The best from them look Coric and Thiem. As Nitb rightly pointed out there is a certain Rublev with a huge talent, but his Russian mentality will be a problem.

I can predict that current top players will be the force to conquer GS next year and will be glad if Nole & Stan could add another GS win.

by Daniel Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:16 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
FedererKing wrote:I'm going to make a prediction that Novak wins either 0 or 1 Slam next year. Everyone thinks it will be 2 or 3, but I don't. I think this was his last great year and if the overwhelming stats are to be believed, it will fit in with the usual trend. I am not sure if he has secured ye#1 but next year is going to be a very very bad time for Novak.

He ain't defending those 16000 points. Believe me You're going to see the start of Djokovic's slide into the abyss.

Is that because he only won one slam in 2012 post his super 2011?

Don't forget, he had Nadal to physically challenge him then, and since Nadal looks done now, Murray is the next most physical test if he can get through QFs and SFs.

Right now, only Federer can challenge (rested) Djokovic in slams. Not in RG if they keep those awful balls, though.

No. I believe decline is swift (with a player like Novak) and about to start setting in (physically, it already has - it's just that it's not noticeable at the moment). I don't think for a second that Novak can keep up the level needed. Certainly not for 2 more years, but imho not the next one either.

by noleisthebest Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:13 pm

paulcz wrote:
Right, the chance to defend 16000 points is hardly feasible.
To predict the amount of won GS is not easy task. It depends on many things, i.e. competition, healthy, surface conditions, draw and also luck plays a big role in it.
Winning of GS is an incredible achievement nowadays. We still have 4 top players, who can do it nearly on all surfaces, Stan definitely replaced Nadal. Fed will be at his 35, Stan 31, Nole & Murray 29, so still ageing should be in Nole & Murray favour.
Tbh I dont see anybody from the youth who could sneak in top 5 currently. Both young aussies are crazy, Rao's body frame is a hamper, Vesely lacks stronger mentality. The best from them look Coric and Thiem. As Nitb rightly pointed out there is a certain Rublev with a huge talent, but his Russian mentality will be a problem.
I can predict that current top players will be the force to conquer GS next year and will be glad if Nole & Stan could add another GS win.

Why a problem?
He looks very dedicated. Not a Safin boheme, and more talented than Davydenko.

He has a long way to go and develop his all-court game. Still very young for all the right reasons.

by paulcz Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:33 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
paulcz wrote:
Right, the chance to defend 16000 points is hardly feasible.
To predict the amount of won GS is not easy task. It depends on many things, i.e. competition, healthy, surface conditions, draw and also luck plays a big role in it.
Winning of GS is an incredible achievement nowadays. We still have 4 top players, who can do it nearly on all surfaces, Stan definitely replaced Nadal. Fed will be at his 35, Stan 31, Nole & Murray 29, so still ageing should be in Nole & Murray favour.
Tbh I dont see anybody from the youth who could sneak in top 5 currently. Both young aussies are crazy, Rao's body frame is a hamper, Vesely lacks stronger mentality. The best from them look Coric and Thiem. As Nitb rightly pointed out there is a certain Rublev with a huge talent, but his Russian mentality will be a problem.
I can predict that current top players will be the force to conquer GS next year and will be glad if Nole & Stan could add another GS win.
Why a problem?
He looks very dedicated. Not a Safin boheme, and more talented than Davydenko.

He has a long way to go and develop his all-court game. Still very young for all the right reasons.

If he is going to work hard and get more muscles and will play with a cool head, then he can be no. 1. in 7-8 years. He can play really fast and go for it. I rather see him as a top player of comet type, who will shine and fall down. Let's see, he is not a kind of my cup of tea though.

by noleisthebest Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:42 pm

paulcz wrote:
If he is going to work hard and get more muscles and will play with a cool head, then he can be no. 1. in 7-8 years. He can play really fast and go for it. I rather see him as a top player of comet type, who will shine and fall down. Let's see, he is not a kind of my cup of tea though.

Paul,
did you know I met Rubi in Roehampton in June when he was qualifying for Wimbledon?
This was what I wrote then:

noleisthebest wrote:And what to say of Andreii Rublev...
You know...all those players I saw there there were good (Melzer, Sijsling, Brown, PHM, Vasselin etc, etc..) some vere very good - Herbert;
But one of them - Rublev, stood out and made the day special for me.
A boy and a man at the same time.

A boy: impatient, happy, cheerful, showy.

A man: ferocious, single-minded, brave.

I met him and spoke to him before his warm up: he and his coach were very friendly and genuinely nice.

The coach joked with me he didn't know who Andreii was, so I joked back and said: well...that's a famous player - Andreii....Djokovic!
Future number one.

I said how wrong and bad it was he was not given a wild card either in RG (last year's junior champion) or Wimbledon (doubles champion), and you could see that upset him.

I said how I liked he was skinny and natural and his coach kept repeating how he'll have lot of muscle next year ()

Andreii was so relaxed and smiled all the time, a really lovely young lad.

Then when the match started I sat next to his mum (you are right T, she is a pro smiler!) who politely thanked me for all my compliments and good wishes.
In between sets I suggested they teach Rubi to volley and move inside the court more to which she gave me a confused look.
But however talented he is, it has to be said - he does not know what to do at the net and plays very cautious shots.

She talked a lot in Russian to a man sat on the other side of her and I understood some of it.
Her diagnosis of her son was that he can't keep his concentration.

She tried to encourage him, but he didn't like it and signalled for her to be quiet, which she did.
But of course she being his mum couldn't so kept going and eventually left the court at 3:3 in the 3rd when his coach appeared on the opposite side of the court.

I thought that was quite interesting how they felt he needed this support, though he never looked at anyone much.

As for the perceived "grumpy" image, he had a few little dialogues with himself, but as they were in Russian, I understood them - he is basically (like all of us!!!) just berating himself, being upset with lost points, not even any rude language!

That's where he is a boy, and I thought it was quite cute as he is so, so tiny and thin - Dodig looked like Schwartzeneger compared to him.

And finally: his tennis.

At the moment he cannot do much, but what he can do - he is doing very, very well: his serve and FH are excellent, better than most top players.
His BH is pretty good, too.

But both shots are basic groundstrokes which is expected for his age in terms of variety.
The quality is way above his age - and that only means one thing - he is very talented.

His volleying is almost not non-existant, though he had 6-7, but it is clear he needs to work on it and I am convinced he'll be very good.

His BH slice was so rare, I though was a big hole in his grass game, as it would have saved him so much energy today.

Every time he used it (3-4) he won a point.

It is obvious he's a product of some tennis factory, but he has so much heart and passion in the game, I am pretty sure it will naturally find its way into his game as time goes by.

He has lovely big clever eyes and seems to be a good learner.
Today he lost on inexperience - had a set and a break and Dodig on the ropes...

Although his loss felt like a mini heartbreak for me, I can confidently say we have a future number on in Andreii.

He is an unpolished gem that will shine brightly one day!

Davai Andreii!

by paulcz Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:02 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
paulcz wrote:
If he is going to work hard and get more muscles and will play with a cool head, then he can be no. 1. in 7-8 years. He can play really fast and go for it. I rather see him as a top player of comet type, who will shine and fall down. Let's see, he is not a kind of my cup of tea though.
Paul,
did you know I met Rubi in Roehampton in June when he was qualifying for Wimbledon?
This was what I wrote then:
noleisthebest wrote:And what to say of Andreii Rublev...
You know...all those players I saw there there were good (Melzer, Sijsling, Brown, PHM, Vasselin etc, etc..) some vere very good - Herbert;
But one of them - Rublev, stood out and made the day special for me.
A boy and a man at the same time.

A boy: impatient, happy, cheerful, showy.

A man: ferocious, single-minded, brave.

I met him and spoke to him before his warm up: he and his coach were very friendly and genuinely nice.

The coach joked with me he didn't know who Andreii was, so I joked back and said: well...that's a famous player - Andreii....Djokovic!
Future number one.

I said how wrong and bad it was he was not given a wild card either in RG (last year's junior champion) or Wimbledon (doubles champion), and you could see that upset him.

I said how I liked he was skinny and natural and his coach kept repeating how he'll have lot of muscle next year ()

Andreii was so relaxed and smiled all the time, a really lovely young lad.

Then when the match started I sat next to his mum (you are right T, she is a pro smiler!) who politely thanked me for all my compliments and good wishes.
In between sets I suggested they teach Rubi to volley and move inside the court more to which she gave me a confused look.
But however talented he is, it has to be said - he does not know what to do at the net and plays very cautious shots.

She talked a lot in Russian to a man sat on the other side of her and I understood some of it.
Her diagnosis of her son was that he can't keep his concentration.

She tried to encourage him, but he didn't like it and signalled for her to be quiet, which she did.
But of course she being his mum couldn't so kept going and eventually left the court at 3:3 in the 3rd when his coach appeared on the opposite side of the court.

I thought that was quite interesting how they felt he needed this support, though he never looked at anyone much.

As for the perceived "grumpy" image, he had a few little dialogues with himself, but as they were in Russian, I understood them - he is basically (like all of us!!!) just berating himself, being upset with lost points, not even any rude language!

That's where he is a boy, and I thought it was quite cute as he is so, so tiny and thin - Dodig looked like Schwartzeneger compared to him.

And finally: his tennis.

At the moment he cannot do much, but what he can do - he is doing very, very well: his serve and FH are excellent, better than most top players.
His BH is pretty good, too.

But both shots are basic groundstrokes which is expected for his age in terms of variety.
The quality is way above his age - and that only means one thing - he is very talented.

His volleying is almost not non-existant, though he had 6-7, but it is clear he needs to work on it and I am convinced he'll be very good.

His BH slice was so rare, I though was a big hole in his grass game, as it would have saved him so much energy today.

Every time he used it (3-4) he won a point.

It is obvious he's a product of some tennis factory, but he has so much heart and passion in the game, I am pretty sure it will naturally find its way into his game as time goes by.

He has lovely big clever eyes and seems to be a good learner.
Today he lost on inexperience - had a set and a break and Dodig on the ropes...

Although his loss today felt like a mini heartbreak for me today, I can confidently say we have a future number on in Andreii.

He is an unpolished gem that will shine brightly one day!

Davai Andreii!

Thanks for the nice interno of Andrei. His game hit me as well. But as you know from my preference, the game is not everything for me. I need to see coolness, emotions, a great team behind a player, jokes and heart of spartan Big Grin

One thing is sure, if you say it, you nitb, then it is nearly sure Winking

he will become no 1 one day. Tbh I didnt see anybody better from youth either. You, and I dont say it first time, have a really good eye for tennis.

I think it is about time to have a new top Russian player. We have so many Russian women at the top, but I am not a fan of neither of them. They are not just my cup of tea.

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