ATP500: Dubai, Acapulco

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:39 am

The field is reasonable. Top seeds to fall off on the opening day, Kachnov and Raonic.

Fed had some troubles but moved to next round.

Title #100 coming by this week.

In Acapulco, Nadal is playing, so is Zverev. I hope Zverev does better.

by Tenez Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:58 pm

Looks like Berankis is hitting form again. A very talented player who lost his focus and probably got injured along the way. He dismissed Medv and Kudla very easily. One to watch this week.

by Tenez Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:42 am

Nadal beaten by Kyrgios again.

Nadal typical difficulty in coping with pace.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:33 am

Tenez wrote:Nadal beaten by Kyrgios again.

Nadal typical difficulty in coping with pace.

Its not just about pace. It's more about Kyrgios. Krygios is a great talent, but he doesn't apply himself in matches except when facing someone big (Nadal/Djko/Fed).

He often lacks the motivation to bring his best game. Typical of a showman. He doesn't do justice to his tennis.

He was injured, played through pain but he was highly motivated only to see Nadal on the opposite side. If there was someone like Schwartzman or Agut, he was definitely going to retire before the end of the match.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:50 am

I like about Kyrgios that he never fails to surprise his opponents. Some of the shots he played, Nadal looked clueless as what's coming up. Krygios even tried an underarm first serve ( it went fault though ). But a lesson to many of those big servers against whom Nadal stands 10m behind the BL.

by Tenez Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:45 am

It's still essentially about pace, otherwise Nadal would have won that easily, and would not need to stand 10m back.

Someone handling pace better will probably beat Nick in the next rounds. Same with Brown, Gilles, or Rosol at Wimby.

Frankly I think Nadal has hugely improved in that department. Back in the day anybody could beat him on fastish courts..until they bigged up the balls across all courts. But still his attritional game is not built to handle consistent pace.

by Slippy Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:59 pm

You seem to be implying only Rafa struggles with “pace”. The fact is Kyrgios is a tough challenge for most players. His serve is brutal.

In sets 2 and 3 Kyrgios saved 9 break points from 9. He didn’t break serve all match and Rafa won 10 more points overall. This is a case of a big server managing a smash and grab win, rather then some evidence that Rafa (as opposed to other top players) has an issue with “pace”.

by Tenez Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:16 pm

Slippy wrote:You seem to be implying only Rafa struggles with “pace”. The fact is Kyrgios is a tough challenge for most players. His serve is brutal.

I am implying it cause it's obvious with him. As he stands further back he is more vunerable to a consistent pace whereas someone skilled enough to stand closer to the baseline will force the pacy player into more errors. This is why Nadal was thriving against old Federer and (all SHBH for that matter) cause they lacked that pace on the BH side. I am pretty sure that someone down the draw will force Kyrgios into errors...while Nadal gave extra time to Kyrgios to aim and pull.

In sets 2 and 3 Kyrgios saved 9 break points from 9. He didn’t break serve all match and Rafa won 10 more points overall. This is a case of a big server managing a smash and grab win, rather then some evidence that Rafa (as opposed to other top players) has an issue with “pace”.

I did not watch so can't comment on the details. But I agree that Nadal handles pace much better than in the past.

by Daniel2 Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:13 pm

Tenez wrote:Nadal beaten by Kyrgios again.

Nadal typical difficulty in coping with pace.

Kyrgios has a much better serve and better ground strokes and better forehand. And Nadal's been lucking out at slams avoiding him, while Fed's been getting him way too often and still managing to pull through.

by Tenez Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:23 pm

Just saw the clip of Fed's today match. He was 4 / 6 down in the TB and won 4 points in a row.

by summerblues Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:23 am

Nadal vs Kyrgios was an odd match. The way the score progressed was like mirror image of some of Nadal's matches when he was younger. Rafa was a set up and had all the break-points in the world (including 0-40 late in the second set and again 0-40 late in the third), but just could not get it done.

Kyrgios was not even playing that well - except when he really had to. Other than that he was making plenty of UEs. Rafa looked ok but not great - somehow they showed a very good winner/UE ratio for him but it did not feel as impressive as that while watching the match.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:25 am

Tenez wrote:Just saw the clip of Fed's today match. He was 4 / 6 down in the TB and won 4 points in a row.

Fuscovics is a tough opponent for Fed, he employs similar tactics as Djokovic/Murray against Fed.

Fed is a lot slow in his reaction times. Title No. 100 seem tough.

And Tsitsi showed he is the definitive new prick on the block. Again using gamesmanship to disrupt the pace of play. In the 3rd set when he was a just breakup, and now serving to consolidate the break. Serving at 15*-0 , HurKacz played great to reach 15*-30. Then suddenly Tsitsi's shoe is not good. He leaves the play suddenly...just runs for his bag, brings out a pair from his kit-bag and changing one shoe. He even takes time to wrap up clean his old shoe, puts it right in his bag, applies the zip clean...make it tidy as he is in NO hurry.

Hurkacz and umpire watching in amazement.

Then comes up and holds. Hurkacz lost the momentum, Tsitsi gets his composure back...

I really didn't want to, but I'm beginning to dislike this guy.

by bogbrush Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:47 am

That's not cool at all. Wanker level behaviour for sure.

Strong Applause

for the "new prick on the block" label, not seen that before.

by noleisthebest Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:23 pm

Wow, what a player Tsits! love

To paraphrase my own self: "He loves the net - she loves him back" (A virtual choice of double drink from me if you can remember which line it was, clue: it's got stg to do with Fed. Big Grin

)

Well, I really didn't think he'd beat Monfils today, as Monfils beat him easily recently.

What a heart the "boy" has. And what talent. He is so natural and fluid. So much game, athleticism, flair, it's a joy to watch.

Can't wait for the final. diva

by noleisthebest Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:37 pm

I would be surprised if Fed beats Coric let alone win his 100th tomorrow. (btw, who cares about that...)

I saw a few games this week, and his FH has been leaking like never before.
Yesterday vs Fukscovic, he looked bored.

He played a few nice BHs and that was it. He is not the player he used to be for sure despite the fact that his hands and shots are quicker and silkier than ever and footwork immaculate and light.

Somehow, his heart is not in it any more. Like the fire has gone out.

by sphairistike Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:29 pm

Glad to see nitb is wrong so far and Fed is toying with Coric, which he should have always done but Coric got lucky to meet Fed when he was recovering from injury last year.

Also, I agree with the majority here and disagree with nitb on this again, Tsitsi is despicable. I'd love to see Fed teaching him a lesson tomorrow and routing him, but I'll settle on a relatively easy straight set win for Fed.

by noleisthebest Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:00 pm

sphairistike wrote:Glad to see nitb is wrong so far and Fed is toying with Coric, which he should have always done but Coric got lucky to meet Fed when he was recovering from injury last year.

Also, I agree with the majority here and disagree with nitb on this again, Tsitsi is despicable. I'd love to see Fed teaching him a lesson tomorrow and routing him, but I'll settle on a relatively easy straight set win for Fed.

Such strong words....is it only because he beat Fed in Oz?
Tsits was better.

As for Fed vs Coric today, I couldn't help but smile when I saw the score...as if Fed heard me and tried to prove me wrong.
I think Coric either sold the match or he is not in good form, not as good as in their last two matches in which he beat Fed.

I can't wait for the final tomorrow. My favourite two match-ups now are Fed-Tsits and Nole-Nadal.

Viva tennis! diva

by Tenez Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:38 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
Tenez wrote:Just saw the clip of Fed's today match. He was 4 / 6 down in the TB and won 4 points in a row.

Fuscovics is a tough opponent for Fed, he employs similar tactics as Djokovic/Murray against Fed.

Fed is a lot slow in his reaction times. Title No. 100 seem tough.

His reaction time is as good as ever or certainly you and I have not got the eye to see the difference. Look at doubles players...Double is all about reaction time and the average age there is 40! It;s Fed's legs that let him down. He is just not as flexible and moving as swiftly as then.

by Tenez Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:41 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Such strong words....is it only because he beat Fed in Oz?
Tsits was better.

Actually that could be argued. Fed had so many BPs...it was rather unlucky it did not convert any of them.

by Daniel2 Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:36 am

Fed's reaction times are not as good as ever. And no one gets better reaction times in late 30s. It's a scientific fact. There's also a reason older people suck hard at driving.

by Daniel2 Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:48 pm

Fed getting very nervy closing this first set out. Has had to save break back points.

by summerblues Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:01 pm

And for no reason too. Was up 40-0 and hit some bad UEs.

by noleisthebest Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:21 pm

So Tsitsipas had to sell the match, too. Pathetic.

That break game for Federer was the biggest tank I’ve ever seen.

Now I really want Nole to break his 20 slam record.

by Daniel2 Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:21 pm

one more game. Hold it together.

One more point.

by summerblues Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:23 pm

Cool

by summerblues Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:25 pm

That was not bad. If he can keep this form for another four months, who knows?

by summerblues Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:28 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Now I really want Nole to break his 20 slam record.

by bogbrush Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:58 pm

noleisthebest wrote:So Tsitsipas had to sell the match, too. Pathetic.

That break game for Federer was the biggest tank I’ve ever seen.

Now I really want Nole to break his 20 slam record.

Like you didn’t before. I don’t know what your thinking process is most of the time.

by sphairistike Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:38 pm

I think she is just enamoured with Tsi and doesn't see him for who he is. He has tailored his style to Federer's but is not that close talent wise.

I agree with Tenez's earlier statement that Tsi's win at AO was lucky, he caught Fed on a bad day where he could not convert any break point... Millman beat Fed in R4 at USO, so really beating Fed in a slam at R4 does not necessarily mean more talent than an average top 50, at least not since Fed has turned 37...

Today Fed showed Tsi that talent wise he is still at least one level higher. Fed did not even need to play his best, just to keep focus long enough, which we know only gets tougher with age...

by Daniel2 Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:15 pm

NITB... A little evidence helps when you make absurd accusations.

Well done, Fed!

And Nole hasn't got the time left to catch Fed. The Open Era stats v age are quite clear about it.

Also, Tsitispas' win over Fed at slam level was not a fluke. You don't get lucky to beat Federer at a slam in the way he did. Another silly assertion.

by bogbrush Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:18 pm

100 tournaments is pretty cool, especially since he didn’t pad it by playing a load of tiny field events like Connors did.

Who knows what will happen in the future, whether Djokovic will pass his records or not, it who eise comes later and goes what, put I really hope that in my lifetime I get to see a player better, more skillful and more virtuous than him. I’ll be lucky if I do because in the 45 years I’ve paid attention since I was a little boy this guy is the best I’ve seen.

by Jahu Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:54 pm

Tsitsipas is a cünt, so young yet loads of spiteful gamesmanship, here, at AO, everywhere.

He has to be a little sad moron to use this crap over and over, when he has the game to beat anyone and not behave like this, even Kyrgios crap moments are cause he is a immature guy doing shit for fun, but TsiTsipas does it to win and seems well trained to distract the opponent when in tight situation.

by Daniel2 Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:15 pm

I agree. Kyrgios is a character and a bit cock sure of himself. But he doesn't cheat. He calls out cheats.

Titsipus is going to be a player I dislike... Sadly. We'll see if he outgrows it. Nadal never did.

by Daniel2 Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:30 pm

Kyrgios maybe learning this is the best way to silence critics.

Makes Zverev look average when he's on form.

by Daniel2 Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:35 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXeroZVBVhc

Just check out all the touch shots.... this guy is one to avoid at Wimbledon. Bet Fed gets him and not Nadal.

by Jahu Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Glad to see Kyrgi beating the crap out of that gold laced fuck.

Hope this year he can stabilise his brain and kick some ass, plays a much more interesting game than most other youngsters.

by bogbrush Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:52 pm

Yeah, Kyrgios skilled him off the court.

Nick can be a complete twat, but he’s an honest twat rather than a scheming one.

by bogbrush Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:53 pm

Jahu wrote:Tsitsipas is a cünt, so young yet loads of spiteful gamesmanship, here, at AO, everywhere.

He has to be a little sad moron to use this crap over and over, when he has the game to beat anyone and not behave like this, even Kyrgios crap moments are cause he is a immature guy doing shit for fun, but TsiTsipas does it to win and seems well trained to distract the opponent when in tight situation.

Did he do something in the final?

by Jahu Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:33 pm

Once at some 15:40 down, he did a missed ball throw on serve pretty fake.

Couldn't watch all points so don't know if there were more, guess he behaved better with Fed.

by Tenez Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:39 pm

Daniel2 wrote:...And Nole hasn't got the time left to catch Fed. The Open Era stats v age are quite clear about it. [/b][/size][/color]

You are so funny.

I am sure you will end up believing in your stats.

So far they contradict you. Fed won 3 slams at 35 plus. Nadal won a few at 34....."your stats are constantly moving!

Also, Tsitispas' win over Fed at slam level was not a fluke. You don't get lucky to beat Federer at a slam in the way he did. Another silly assertion.

With you it is all black and white. Very Manichean...no room for subtleties. Of course luck would not have been enough to beat Federer. Tsi played his part but Fed was still unlucky (or Tsi lucky) he could not convert any of his many BPs. There is noting lucky in creating 20 BPs but it is unlucky not to convert any! You understand?

by Jahu Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:11 pm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/roger-federer-wins-100-titles-greatest-ever-how/

Some good history.

by Daniel2 Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:25 am

Tenez wrote:
Daniel2 wrote:...And Nole hasn't got the time left to catch Fed. The Open Era stats v age are quite clear about it. [/b][/size][/color]

You are so funny.

I am sure you will end up believing in your stats.

So far they contradict you. Fed won 3 slams at 35 plus. Nadal won a few at 34....."your stats are constantly moving!

They contradict my assertion that Nole can't reach 20 slams? I'd love you to show everyone here how. You can't, because you really have no clue what the stats even show. Doh

In your world, Federer won all his slams after 30 and not before. Ding ding. Reality called.

You're more wrong about everything than anyone I've ever seen on any forum. I am sure when Nole fails to reach Slam 20, you will have lots of excuses as to why - but none of them will be that age is the major factor. Big Grin

In order for Nole to reach 20, let alone break it, he has to win more slams in his 30s than has ever been done before. And he has to do it in the power era of tennis. It simply isn't feasible. Common sense alone tells you it.

Do you think Nole will be playing to a slam title standard at age 35? 36? 37? He'll more likely be in a stretcher. Maybe if you played the game, you'd understand why different tennis styles matter to this argument, but you're clueless.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:43 am

Jahu wrote:Glad to see Kyrgi beating the crap out of that gold laced fuck.

Hope this year he can stabilise his brain and kick some ass, plays a much more interesting game than most other youngsters.

He is only moderately interested in tennis. He likes to beat the top guys, but isn't serious enough. Even before the finals he went for jet skiing late evening.

In the times when pro players keep multiple coaches, fitness trainers, dedicated hitting partners, dieticians, sports psychologists, personal egg chambers and donkeys... this guy is living off all alone.

For bigger success, he needs to be way more professional than he is currently. He is the most talented among any of the young players and skill wise should be winning slams.

Zverev is a young version of Murray with a better serve.

by Tenez Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:33 am

Daniel2 wrote:They contradict my assertion that Nole can't reach 20 slams? I'd love you to show everyone here how. You can't, because you really have no clue what the stats even show.

It's not about being right or wrong. Neither you or me knows how many slams Djoko will win. It's about having sensible arguments justifying your predictions. Currently Djokovic could win 5 o5 6 more slams. Not easy but not impossible.

Remember last year you thought he was finished cause too old. Now he he is number 1 in the world and has won the last 3 slams. First you said Federer was exceptional and that is why he was winning slams after 30, then Nadal was , then Djoko, Stan, etc..You have been so wrong about that peak age matter. Just admit it.

Your views are based on 1980s stats. You are not seeing that the sport has changed since and that athletes are much more professional nowadays which gives them a substantial advantage over younger players.

But it is your problem if you don;t want to learn...though I know deep down, you cannot be blind to reality. You are just trying to save your ego.

In your world, Federer won all his slams after 30 and not before. Ding ding. Reality called.

Did I say that? I am just saying that it is likely he would have won none after 30 had he not kept improving!

You're more wrong about everything than anyone I've ever seen on any forum. I am sure when Nole fails to reach Slam 20, you will have lots of excuses as to why - but none of them will be that age is the major factor.

Indeed. Re-read my first paragraph!

In order for Nole to reach 20, let alone break it, he has to win more slams in his 30s than has ever been done before. And he has to do it in the power era of tennis. It simply isn't feasible. Common sense alone tells you it.

Whatever your stats say, he has won the last 3....he roughly has 3 years left in him to win 5. Not easy we agree but not impossible. So why do you say so? Just because you don;t want to? Neither do I but I can distinguish between reality and my wishful thinking.

Do you think Nole will be playing to a slam title standard at age 35? 36? 37? He'll more likely be in a stretcher. Maybe if you played the game, you'd understand why different tennis styles matter to this argument, but you're clueless.

You realise he is still 31....he can still play 4 slams before reaching 33....so why mentioning 35-37?

by Daniel2 Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:53 pm

Yup. You even admit you'll make your own excuse up. Also, you do realize that winning slams in your 30s is harder, right? Every single piece of data we have proves it.

For you to be right, Djok has to dominate and keep dominating in his 30s. Something no other player has done.

Do you remember what happened to Djok not long back? Fell off the radar. You are supposing in that cloud cuckoo land of yours that that can't happen again. Anything can change - and frequently does with age.

In the end, you'll be wrong and I'll be right - and you'll only have excuses.

by bogbrush Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:59 pm

It’s good to see you both making such progress in this debate. Thumbs Up

by Daniel2 Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:31 pm

At the end, I'll be right. And his response will be

If Djok hadn't gotten injured....
The younger players are now faster and better than ever....
The racquet Djok is using is clearly hampering him.....

Not...

"Oh, look, another player in his 30s unable to play at his peak forever and a day. Who'd have thunk it?"

by N2D2L Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:37 am

By the way, even results in a certain direction doesn't prove anyone right definitively.

Eg Even if Djokovic was better aged 24-28 than 32-36, the fact he faced better competition in his 20s compared to the current 'next gen' failures could mean he's even more successful statistically now.
Meanwhile even if Djokovic's success dips after 33 let's say, it could be that Tenez is right to some extent (that the peak is 28-32, rather than 24-28 as traditionally thought), or that a yet unseen star from the next generation trained at such a high level they improved the standards of tennis.

Results don't prove the case in either direction, the only way we could tell is statistical algorithms measuring the pace of play and accuracy of shots, as well as other variables such as how early they've taken the ball, RPMs etc.

Tenez says some things that are clearly baloney (I think he said Thiem 2017 would beat Federer 2007 in straight sets or something), but he also has to be given credit for the fact Federer, Nadal, Djokovic have all competed beyond an age we'd have expected them to retire.

by Tenez Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:07 am

DEC1M7 wrote:By the way, even results in a certain direction doesn't prove anyone right definitively.

Eg Even if Djokovic was better aged 24-28 than 32-36, the fact he faced better competition in his 20s compared to the current 'next gen' failures could mean he's even more successful statistically now.

In theory yes but I do not believe tennis was at a higher level 5 years ago. Unless the very top 2 or 3 players are injured at the same time. The field as a whole is tougher now than 5 years ago and unless tennis popularity drops dramatically, it will be tougher in 5 years.

Meanwhile even if Djokovic's success dips after 33 let's say, it could be that Tenez is right to some extent (that the peak is 28-32, rather than 24-28 as traditionally thought), or that a yet unseen star from the next generation trained at such a high level they improved the standards of tennis.

Indeed. It's not a trend we have seen in the top 3 players....but with the whole field. Experience in tennis counts much more than the slight possible (not proven) physical differential lost from 26 to 32.

Results don't prove the case in either direction, the only way we could tell is statistical algorithms measuring the pace of play and accuracy of shots, as well as other variables such as how early they've taken the ball, RPMs etc.

Disagree. results clearly show that youngsters struggle much more nowadays, especially at winning slams which are more demanding physically. You may want to argue that the next gen is weak....but they will prove you soon that they will be the best around in a few years.

Tenez says some things that are clearly baloney (I think he said Thiem 2017 would beat Federer 2007 in straight sets or something), but he also has to be given credit for the fact Federer, Nadal, Djokovic have all competed beyond an age we'd have expected them to retire.

There are a few egos out there (they know who they are) that would rather persist knowingly in being wrong than to acknowledge the obvious.

by Daniel2 Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:25 pm

If you honestly believe that, Decima, then you're as helpless and hapless as Tenez - though I rather suspect you're just trying to troll. Which is sad. NAdal was winning all his clay titles during the same era - and the bulk of his titles also.

Federer is still winning in his mid to late 30s. So it's nothing to do with a weak era.

But all that nonsense you and Tenez are writing does not change the fact here - Djok is almost certainly not going to reach 20 slams. There's no grey area for either of you. He either will - and you will be right - or he won't - and I'll remind you of it the rest of your lives. Magic

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