Worst Losses/Best Wins

Djokovic: RG final 2015/RG final 2016

Nadal: AO final 2012/Wimbledon final 2008

Federer: Wimbledon Final 2014/AO final 2017

Murray: Wimbledon final 2012/Wimbledon final 2013

It was tough to work out Fed’s worst loss as I haven’t seen most Fedal mathces before 2017.
Also wasn’t sure anout Murray’s best win...as I still think Nole tanked in that Wimbledon final.

Djokovic: I'd agree

Nadal: AO Final 2017 for me would be the worst loss. Because that hoodoo held over Federer had now gone and results since for me show that. I agree on the best.

Federer: FO 2008 for me the worst loss. The score line was unflattering and that wasn't his best day. Agree with the best win.

Murray: I'd say the 2015 AO Final was his worst defeat. He lost his concentration despite actually being in a position to win it. Make what you will of Djokovic's MTO, Murray lost the plot! Agree with best win.

Tanked a Wimbledon final??? Why?!

Pressure from Spectre

Loss/Win

Djoko: RG SF 2013/RG F 2016

Nadal: AO Final 2017/W Final 2008

Murray:  one of AO Final 2013, AO Final 2015, W Final 2012/USO Final 2012

Fed: one of AO or USO Final 2009/AO Final 2017

Fed: it has to be that USO 2011 semi! Wimbledon 2008 was hurting too as he felt robbed having to play in the dark....but losing to Djoko again in the same tournament after having MPs like the year before. Very painful!

Tenez wrote:Fed: it has to be that USO 2011 semi! Wimbledon 2008 was hurting too as he felt robbed having to play in the dark....but losing to Djoko again in the same tournament after having MPs like the year before. Very painful!

Yes - but I always thought that losing those two SF's at the USO to Djoko might have been a bit of a blessing in disguise, because I was not confident that Fed would avoid being chewed up by Nadal in the final - perhaps less so in 2011 than in 2010.

noleisthebest wrote:I still think Nole tanked in that Wimbledon final.

Well of course you do

Federer:  W08 (Fed failed to contain Rafa outside RG) / AO17 (kind of the opposite of W08:  Fed finally overcame Rafa)

Rafa:  AO12 (He gave it his all trying to stop Nole's dominance over him, even came close, yet failed) / W08

Nole:  RG13 SF (So close to beating Rafa at RG and then messed up big time) / RG16 (as HE would say, Nole's holy grail)

Andy:  not sure, probably W12, or maybe one of his AO losses to Nole / W13

With Nadal I'm torn between AO 2017 and AO 2012, not least because he made a couple of crucial errors at important points in the 2012.  I still go for the former because it signaled such a change in the Fedal matchup, and, with hindsight, looks to have been the start of Fed pulling away decisively on the slam tally list from looking distinctly catchable.

The 2012 match was nothing like so significant in the Nadal/Djoko matchup given that Nadal restored 'order' by winning 6 of their next 7 matches including finals at RG and USO.

barrystar wrote:With Nadal I'm torn between AO 2017 and AO 2012, not least because he made a couple of crucial errors at important points in the 2012.  I still go for the former because it signaled such a change in the Fedal matchup, and, with hindsight, looks to have been the start of Fed pulling away decisively on the slam tally list from looking distinctly catchable.

I had the same dilemma.

In ‘12 AO final Nadal knew he was physically beaten once and for all.
In ‘17 final, it was a final nail in the coffin. Something he never expected or could dream of.
He thought he owned Federer.
He was the “shadow” goat.

So the pain of that loss was probably sharper for Nadal...esp as Fed cemented it in IW and Miami.

Hence his fans pulling out H2H.

I think Fed taking no 1 from him finally broke his heart.

I think if Nole somehow manages to overtake him in slam count that would be as bad for him as getting caught doped.

barrystar wrote:

The 2012 match was nothing like so significant in the Nadal/Djoko matchup given that Nadal restored 'order' by winning 6 of their next 7 matches including finals at RG and USO.

Agree, still, I think AO’12 took a lot out of Nadal, he hasn't been the same player since.

Just imagine if Nadal won that one!

Djokovic: 
RG final 2015: so unlucky he had to deal with Stan's once in a lifetime performance, and at that very moment
AO 2012: He was supposed to lose that cruel dogfight, but simply he refused to. 

Nadal: 
AO final 2017: this was -even for team Nadal- the definite confirmation he'll never be the greatest.
Wimbledon final 2008: I'm sure still smiles satanically thinking about that one

Federer: Wimbledon Final 2008: Not fit, never looking good and that the great fightback (all in vain), which made the loss even worse 
AO final 2017:  been written off; slam final; Nadal; break down fifth set; 5 majestic games... It can't get any better than that. It wiped out so many bad losses.

Murray: AO final 2010: "i can cry like Roger, unfortunatly i can't play like him", great reflection, but boy that must have hurt
Olympic final 2012: Finally he beat Federer in a big final, and he did it at Wimbledon

gallery play wrote:Djokovic: 
RG final 2015: so unlucky he had to deal with Stan's once in a lifetime performance, and at that very moment
AO 2012: He was supposed to lose that cruel dogfight, but simply he refused to. 

Nadal: 
AO final 2017: this was -even for team Nadal- the definite confirmation he'll never be the greatest.
Wimbledon final 2008: I'm sure still smiles satanically thinking about that one

Federer: Wimbledon Final 2008: Not fit, never looking good and that the great fightback (all in vain), which made the loss even worse 
AO final 2017:  been written off; slam final; Nadal; break down fifth set; 5 majestic games... It can't get any better than that. It wiped out so many bad losses.

Murray: AO final 2010: "i can cry like Roger, unfortunatly i can't play like him", great reflection, but boy that must have hurt
Olympic final 2012: Finally he beat Federer in a big final, and he did it at Wimbledon

I think it was Wimbledon’12 final.

I was so moved at the time I wrote this on JA606 (the exile in between getting kicked out of v2 and OTF. Did you know I actually got kicked off from there because I sent you an answer to your PM to tell you we were on JA606...those mods on v2 were really over the top)

====================================================
What do I say when the inside is sinking with emotion weighing words down.

Can you watch a tennis match backwards?

Well, that's how it feels for me right now: I have actually seen a match backwards.


For, the end of yesterday's final provided the key to unlock the beginning:

the bright sunshine, the glorious Centre Court, the "important" people looking fragile: wanting something so badly, yet not being able to buy it.

The young man who his box was terribly concerned about: you could see it on their weary faces, like never before, even his normally tough fist-pumping fitness trainer was reduced to his 5 year old helplessness.

The mum was overwhelmed, too. The one who hugged him from day one, needed a hug she could not get.

But the young man was brave for them all, he was brave and was not going to be denied.

And he wasn't denied.

He left absolutely everything he had on that court. Even the stuff he borrowed for the day: the fearlessness, the smile, the buried fear, the cast-off old comfort blanket.
He was light.

And then he had to pack it all up in his heart and go back to those same walls he has to look at every day.
His hands will have been shaky, he may have left a piece or two behind.
It doesn't matter now.

Nothing matters now.

Nothing will matter for a very long time.

Walk tall in those dark woods, Andy and come back when you're ready.

The sun always comes after the clouds.

It's got to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb4VY8gYZt4

==================================================

noleisthebest wrote:Did you know I actually got kicked off from there because I sent you an answer to your PM to tell you we were on JA606.

Weird, i believe it sent SB en BB pm's to tell about JA. They (the moderators) didn't read my pm's obviously
Glad the moderating nonsense is not an issue here.

Nice post there!

Anyway, it was actually AO 2010 when he said that:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/i-can-cry-like-roger-federer-but-not-play-like-him/news-story/3b13bd82bcb0e8021e1a8c802b88c539?sv=5ade49e17c6bb36014ef223d6256e9f

gallery play wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Did you know I actually got kicked off from there because I sent you an answer to your PM to tell you we were on JA606.

Weird, i believe it sent SB en BB pm's to tell about JA. They (the moderators) didn't read my pm's obviously

Glad the moderating nonsense is not an issue here.

I think I must have been hunted by Nadal fans...they couldn’t rest untill they got us all out of there.
So silly.

Anyway, it led to OTF eventually which is more relaxed and truth-friendly.

Apparently it was you who gave Tenez the idea!

gallery play wrote:
Nice post there!

Anyway, it was actually AO 2010 when he said that:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/i-can-cry-like-roger-federer-but-not-play-like-him/news-story/3b13bd82bcb0e8021e1a8c802b88c539?sv=5ade49e17c6bb36014ef223d6256e9f

Thanks.

As for that quote...you do have a good memory!

I could’ve put my house down he said it that Wimbledon.

Funny thing is, I never see W 2008 as such a bad loss for Federer.  He was having a bad year for an understandable reason.  He had been absolutely mashed at RG and had only won two tiddler tournaments that season thus far.

Nadal had gotten closer to him on grass over 2006-2007, and I expected a clear win for Nadal, perhaps 3 or 4 sets.  I remember listening to the third and fourth sets in the car (we had to stop since my son was sick all over the back!), and I was desperate for Fed to take it to a 5th set.  Once he did I did not expect him to win, but I was relieved that he had shown the heart to force Nadal all the way from 2-0 down - he had gained respectability and shown that to beat him at W needed an epic.

Aus Open was far worse in my view; not the same excuses this time.  HC was really Fed's domain, as he'd shown at USO 2008 to tidy up his 'bad' year.  Nadal had never made any HC final before, he had struggled through the epic SF vs. Verdasco on Friday compared to Fed's extra day off - after a very sloppy 1st set the b/h pummeling eventually got to him leading to the final set collapse.  Rightly or wrongly, I always see that as a bigger pivot in their rivalry than W 2008.

legendkillar wrote:Pressure from Spectre

Correct!
I am happy to be humoured for my conspiracist streak.

I think Fed could have won that 5th set at Wimbledon 08. But once again darkness disadvantaged him as he was the one flirting with the thin margins.

Tenez wrote:I think Fed could have won that 5th set at Wimbledon 08. But once again darkness disadvantaged him as he was the one flirting with the thin margins.

I'm not so sure - Fed broke Nadal only once in that match, at the beginning of the 2nd set, but he still lost it.  He won his two sets in tie-breaks.  I remember thinking that he'd have had a much better chance if Wimbledon had final set tie-breakers, or if he'd hung onto that 2nd set lead, but I never thought he'd do in the 5th what he'd managed only once in the whole match previously.

Facts are such that if you take the ball early while while it is speedier and try to aim for lines hitting flatter darkness become a real problem.

Federer is mentally stronger than Nadal and I could have seen Nadal collapse at some stage.

Fed had bp at 4-3 in the fifth...That's very close to the finish line isn't it?

And i remember Federer coming back very strong after the rain delay in the fifth: at 2-2 deuce he served 2 aces. Ice cold.

After 5-5 Federer's momentum started to fall apart, when the darkness kicked in

If Fed had not been broken to 7-8, and at the next end the games had continued to go with serve to 9:8, do we think they would have been called off at that point?  It must have been very close to a decision.

barrystar wrote:

Tenez wrote:I think Fed could have won that 5th set at Wimbledon 08. But once again darkness disadvantaged him as he was the one flirting with the thin margins.

I'm not so sure - Fed broke Nadal only once in that match, at the beginning of the 2nd set, but he still lost it.  He won his two sets in tie-breaks.  I remember thinking that he'd have had a much better chance if Wimbledon had final set tie-breakers, or if he'd hung onto that 2nd set lead, but I never thought he'd do in the 5th what he'd managed only once in the whole match previously.

Funnily enough into the 5th I felt Federer would win. He was getting closer probably as Nadal became ever more nervous. It was only a year later that Federer on a W final by getting a single break in the final after the equivalent of 7 or 8 sets!

The darkness thing was very annoying, it's great that now that could never happen.

bogbrush wrote:

barrystar wrote:

Tenez wrote:I think Fed could have won that 5th set at Wimbledon 08. But once again darkness disadvantaged him as he was the one flirting with the thin margins.

I'm not so sure - Fed broke Nadal only once in that match, at the beginning of the 2nd set, but he still lost it.  He won his two sets in tie-breaks.  I remember thinking that he'd have had a much better chance if Wimbledon had final set tie-breakers, or if he'd hung onto that 2nd set lead, but I never thought he'd do in the 5th what he'd managed only once in the whole match previously.

Funnily enough into the 5th I felt Federer would win. He was getting closer probably as Nadal became ever more nervous.

The darkness thing was very annoying, it's great that now that could never happen.

but surely BB, you weren't even watching, how could you withstand the tension?

I was watching, I think I am cracking up worse as I get older. It's completely bonkers.

bogbrush wrote:I was watching, I think I am cracking up worse as I get older. It's completely bonkers.

I mean, does it matter if you watch or not...it's sheer suffering eitherway!!!!

Sure it must be worse when you are "behind the sofa" checking scores...

My worst ever non-watch was AO 12 final.

I spent most of it sprawled across the dining table listening to Stayin' Alive I programmed to go on...

I actually convinced myself if I kept playing it Nole would stay alive in that match!

I only dared play the stream when Nole had MPs.

Yes, I often wonder if the Road Traffic Acts should be amended to make it an offence to listen to Fedal finals whilst you are driving.  Touch wood I have not had an accident whilst so doing, and I've listened to a few on the roads.

I'd advise you to avoid the M3 and other routes between West London and Stockbridge during Fedal matches....

I don’t hide behind the sofa, I distract myself entirely either by going out or whatever. It all began in earnest when Liverpool were playing Chelsea in the Champions League semi in 2005 and I couldn’t handle the second leg. 

Oddly I watched the Istanbul final easy enough, even from 3-0 down and I watched Wimbledon 08 all the way. I guess it might be the frame of mind I’m in at the time.

bogbrush wrote:I don’t hide behind the sofa, I distract myself entirely either by going out or whatever. It all began in earnest when Liverpool were playing Chelsea in the Champions League semi in 2005 and I couldn’t handle the second leg. 

Oddly I watched the Istanbul final easy enough, even from 3-0 down and I watched Wimbledon 08 all the way. I guess it might be the frame of mind I’m in at the time.

You Liverpool fan too? Good call. When we were kids I was always rooting for Liverpool, my friend was ManU. I had the better of him back in those years, but much less so more recently.

barrystar wrote:Funny thing is, I never see W 2008 as such a bad loss for Federer.  He was having a bad year for an understandable reason.  He had been absolutely mashed at RG and had only won two tiddler tournaments that season thus far.

For similar reasons I do not see Rafa's AO17 as being so bad.  Prior to then he had not been past slam QF in what - a couple of years?  Just making the final looked great at the time.

bogbrush wrote:

barrystar wrote:

Tenez wrote:I think Fed could have won that 5th set at Wimbledon 08. But once again darkness disadvantaged him as he was the one flirting with the thin margins.

I'm not so sure - Fed broke Nadal only once in that match, at the beginning of the 2nd set, but he still lost it.  He won his two sets in tie-breaks.  I remember thinking that he'd have had a much better chance if Wimbledon had final set tie-breakers, or if he'd hung onto that 2nd set lead, but I never thought he'd do in the 5th what he'd managed only once in the whole match previously.

Funnily enough into the 5th I felt Federer would win. He was getting closer probably as Nadal became ever more nervous. It was only a year later that Federer on a W final by getting a single break in the final after the equivalent of 7 or 8 sets!

The darkness thing was very annoying, it's great that now that could never happen.

He had a break chance in the 5th but missed a sitting volley at the net. The point changed the fate of the match. Fed was serving ahead in the 5th and I don't think he would have lost from then on given the momentum he had for the last 2 sets.

Federer didn't play his best all year in 2008.  Mono had an effect, but blaming light isn't right... since both had to play under those conditions.  Fact is, the biggest problem of all was that Fed had lost too many matches on clay and at the FO at this point, and Nadal was in his head because of it - even though this wasn't clay.  It didn't matter. Nadal had a massive advantage in the mental stakes with the FO being before Wimb too.

Nadal - worst loss AO 2012 - he had the opportunities to win and missed a shot that he would normally make 9/10. That was probably the match. 
At that point the difference between him and Screech was razor thin.

In contrast, at the AO 2017, Rafa played solid in the fifth set (probably his highest level of tennis since mid 2014) but Roger just took it to another level. He didn't lose it, Fed won it - the better man won. 

Federer - worst loss USO 2009 - should never have lost that match. Mind you he's had quite a few bad losses. AO '09 was also bad - the way he capitulated half way through the fifth set. FO '08, whilst bad on paper, was tempered by the fact that he had very little chance of winning anyway going in to the match - so getting drubbed or losing in 5 - same result. 

W'08 was also a bad loss - he was pathetic and tentative for the first 2 sets. When you assess their respective skillsets on grass it's hard not to conclude that Roger should dominate Rafa on grass as thoroughly as he himself is dominated by the same opponent on clay.

barrystar wrote:
Aus Open was far worse in my view; not the same excuses this time.  HC was really Fed's domain, as he'd shown at USO 2008 to tidy up his 'bad' year.  Nadal had never made any HC final before, he had struggled through the epic SF vs. Verdasco on Friday compared to Fed's extra day off - after a very sloppy 1st set the b/h pummeling eventually got to him leading to the final set collapse.  Rightly or wrongly, I always see that as a bigger pivot in their rivalry than W 2008.

Agree.

By winning against all odds in AO 2009 Nadal demonstrated that he had Fed's number on all surfaces. As a Fed fan it was truly galling - not least because it felt like the rivalry had taken a decisive turn in favour of Nadal. It was hard to imagine Federer besting Nadal in best of five again outside W and perhaps the USO - and he would probably start as underdog everywhere from now on. The future looked ugly; and so it proved - until AO '17

Daniel wrote:Federer didn't play his best all year in 2008.  Mono had an effect, but blaming light isn't right... since both had to play under those conditions.  Fact is, the biggest problem of all was that Fed had lost too many matches on clay and at the FO at this point, and Nadal was in his head because of it - even though this wasn't clay.  It didn't matter. Nadal had a massive advantage in the mental stakes with the FO being before Wimb too.

Why would you be allowed to claim Mono as an excuse and we could not blame light? If you knew a bit more about tennis, you'd know that some factors affect some more than others. they both play on clay for instance but clay favours one player over the other. Grass would have the opposite effect. Wind, light, fast or slow conds affect players chances of success. Fed has an excellent record indoors for instance cause wind plays no role for instance. The thinner the margins a player plays with, the more he is going to be affected by external factors.

Not rocket science.

Emancipator wrote:

barrystar wrote:
Aus Open was far worse in my view; not the same excuses this time.  HC was really Fed's domain, as he'd shown at USO 2008 to tidy up his 'bad' year.  Nadal had never made any HC final before, he had struggled through the epic SF vs. Verdasco on Friday compared to Fed's extra day off - after a very sloppy 1st set the b/h pummeling eventually got to him leading to the final set collapse.  Rightly or wrongly, I always see that as a bigger pivot in their rivalry than W 2008.

Agree.

By winning against all odds in AO 2009 Nadal demonstrated that he had Fed's number on all surfaces. As a Fed fan it was truly galling - not least because it felt like the rivalry had taken a decisive turn in favour of Nadal. It was hard to imagine Federer besting Nadal in best of five again outside W and perhaps the USO - and he would probably start as underdog everywhere from now on. The future looked ugly; and so it proved - until AO '17

I disagree. It showed that once again, the AO had slowed down the conds ridiculously to allow Nadal in, no different than the USO introducing the bigger ball in 2010.

Tenez wrote:

Daniel wrote:Federer didn't play his best all year in 2008.  Mono had an effect, but blaming light isn't right... since both had to play under those conditions.  Fact is, the biggest problem of all was that Fed had lost too many matches on clay and at the FO at this point, and Nadal was in his head because of it - even though this wasn't clay.  It didn't matter. Nadal had a massive advantage in the mental stakes with the FO being before Wimb too.

Why would you be allowed to claim Mono as an excuse and we could not blame light? 

First, I said mono had an effect, but not the be all and end all. Second, do you understand the concept of "both had to play under the same conditions".  They both played under low light.  Did nadal have mono? 

Daniel wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Daniel wrote:Federer didn't play his best all year in 2008.  Mono had an effect, but blaming light isn't right... since both had to play under those conditions.  Fact is, the biggest problem of all was that Fed had lost too many matches on clay and at the FO at this point, and Nadal was in his head because of it - even though this wasn't clay.  It didn't matter. Nadal had a massive advantage in the mental stakes with the FO being before Wimb too.

Why would you be allowed to claim Mono as an excuse and we could not blame light? 

First, I said mono had an effect, but not the be all and end all. Second, do you understand the concept of "both had to play under the same conditions".  They both played under low light.  Did nadal have mono? 

So you evade the point once again and ignore the fact that some conds affect some players more than others? You know bugger all about tennis. Nothing wrong with that but please don;t pretend you do.

If Nadal had also had Mono in 2008, he would not even have bothered entering the draws as he needs to be 110% to have a chance to win as his tennis is based so much on fitness compared to federer....that's how certain conds affect some players more than others.

When the discussion is about Fed's doubting himself when facing Nadal its laughed off 

Daniel wrote:Lol... Old Fed full of doubts.  Dear god, do you honestly believe that?  You honestly believe a man full of doubts would break Sampras' record of Slams?  What planet are you inhabiting?  It almost sounds like Tenez Land!   

And when the discussion is about why Fed couldn't play his game even on Grass in W2008 to beat Nadal...

Daniel wrote: Fact is, the biggest problem of all was that Fed had lost too many matches on clay and at the FO at this point, and Nadal was in his head because of it - even though this wasn't clay.  It didn't matter. Nadal had a massive advantage in the mental stakes with the FO being before Wimb too.

( man who allows an opponent to get into his head)  !=  ( man doubts his abilities to face the opponent )..

Tenez wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Daniel wrote:Federer didn't play his best all year in 2008.  Mono had an effect, but blaming light isn't right... since both had to play under those conditions.  Fact is, the biggest problem of all was that Fed had lost too many matches on clay and at the FO at this point, and Nadal was in his head because of it - even though this wasn't clay.  It didn't matter. Nadal had a massive advantage in the mental stakes with the FO being before Wimb too.

Why would you be allowed to claim Mono as an excuse and we could not blame light? 

First, I said mono had an effect, but not the be all and end all. Second, do you understand the concept of "both had to play under the same conditions".  They both played under low light.  Did nadal have mono? 

So you evade the point once again and ignore the fact that some conds affect some players more than others? ct some players more than others.  

So, what you are in effect saying is that Nadal is a better player in the darker conditions.  You have no proof of that, but if so...  what is your point?  Nadal still played better.  Will you be here whinging when Fed excels in wind v some players?  Or perhaps under the roof?  Conditions are a part of tennis.  It's you who knows bugger all.  Federer didn't whine about the light, because, guess what?  He isn't a lousy excuse maker.

( man who allows an opponent to get into his head)  !=  ( man doubts his abilities to face the opponent )..

There is no contradiction of having poor mental blocks v a certain opponent who is also a bad match up.  That doesn't stop a player like Federer dominating.  It does stop him winning as much v that one player.  Logic. Life can't be reduced to a dopy equation you'd expect to see a primary school kid come up with in the playground.