Other ATP tournaments 2021

Is there a worse player than Coric? he looks so talentless and so steroided!

He actually might be fitter than Nadal! More stamina and as much muscle mass nearly. He is even less talented than Nadal, would you believe it!

I am curious. Question for Naxroy and Amri, When you you watch someone like Coric, do you think he is clean? does it cross your mind that steroids and EPO could be used and abused in tennis? Or do you not allow yourselves to doubt?

Tenez wrote:I am curious. Question for Naxroy and Amri, When you you watch someone like Coric, do you think he is clean? does it cross your mind that steroids and EPO could be used and abused in tennis? Or do you not allow yourselves to doubt?

I don't know if Coric is clean, but I know one could achieve what Coric has achieved without doping due to modern nutrition and fitness techniques.

Can you detail what is modern nutrition and training? Are we talking bionic.carrotts and eggs?

An article about Federer today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/56314453

Cheered me up just to hear he hopes to play well again.

Ridiculous sport though, where an injured 40 year old (just about) can talk about winning big things.

Djoko gets 311 weeks at #1. 2 years ago I was sure this Record of Fed will not be broken. But I think Djoko has a chance to stamp it up to 350+ weeks.

bogbrush wrote:An article about Federer today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/56314453

Cheered me up just to hear he hopes to play well again.

Ridiculous sport though, where an injured 40 year old (just about) can talk about winning big things.

It's not that uncommon nowadays....Ronaldo, 36 still winning big, O'Sullivan, Gebrelassi...etc...

What is particularly bizarre is to see the physical game a la Nadal and Djokovic lasting that long. Wilander, Borg, Hewitt, Chang and all did not last long back then!

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Djoko gets 311 weeks at #1. 2 years ago I was sure this Record of Fed will not be broken. But I think Djoko has a chance to stamp it up to 350+ weeks.

Same here. I never thought this record would be broken.

Here is what Djokovic says: https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/56322760

"Novak Djokovic says it has taken "a lot of blood, sweat and tears" to break Roger Federer's record "....For sure. He is at least aware that talent was no part of it.

Tenez wrote:

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Djoko gets 311 weeks at #1. 2 years ago I was sure this Record of Fed will not be broken. But I think Djoko has a chance to stamp it up to 350+ weeks.

Same here. I never thought this record would be broken.

Here is what Djokovic says: https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/56322760

"Novak Djokovic says it has taken "a lot of blood, sweat and tears" to break Roger Federer's record "....For sure. He is at least aware that talent was no part of it.

Unlike Fedal, he has a very big advantage. He never had,  a younger rival who could consistently challenge him in his dominance. All those younger than him Murray/Nishikori/Delpo/Dimi/Goffin have come and gone. For the last 10+ years his biggest rivals were still Nadal and papa-Fed. The newer ones Zverev/Thiem/Med are still not able to consistently challenge him in Slams. They are buying their time.

So his dominance might have taken a bit of jolt, he can lose some b03 titles, but he isn't going to be dethroned anytime soon unless gets seriously injured. So if anyone is reaping the prizes of a weak era, its Djoko.

Talent? Talent alone has never won anything for anyone.

I see what you mean....but Djokovic managed to reach Nadal and Federer's level due to his willpower. Then both, Nadal and DJokovic, did really benefit from being the first generation to develop their games with the new string technology and "diet" science. That gave them a huge advantage. Even Murray got close to them using the same tools.

Had Federer been born 5 years later...I am pretty sure than neither Djoko or Nadal would have reached a 1/4 of their slams tally. They would have been sorted like all players of Fed's generation.

Starting the game with a 85inch racquet, 100% nat gut and very fast courts completely threw Federer in the wrong direction for the players and conditions changes of the 2000s.

Really impressed by Karatsev! He will kill Nadal if they meet!

Djok hasn't reached Fed's level.  He's prospered from weak era and slow surfaces.

Daniel2 wrote:Djok hasn't reached Fed's level.  He's prospered from weak era and slow surfaces.

Yes but that is difficult to quantify.
Do you still think he cannot reach 20?

Is anyone watching Miami? I find the pace of today's players a couple of notch up than the Djoko/Nadal/Murray era. Have they sped up the courts or are the players going for more?
bit of both?

Very impressive this Sinner. His shots are a few notches up from the previous generation. I think it os the end of the lung busting tennis.

Tenez wrote:Very impressive this Sinner. His shots are a few notches up from the previous generation. I think it os the end of the lung busting tennis.

Nadal beat him in French Open 2020 QF.

yes but we are in 2021! I doubt he will lose again. You know too well that though it was in 3 sets, it was at least 2 very close first sets.

Tenez wrote:yes but we are in 2021! I doubt he will lose again. You know too well that though it was in 3 sets, it was at least 2 very close first sets.

Yes but the match started at like 10pm Paris time in October; it was super cold. Nadal was on verge of hypothermia for first 2 sets but then warmed himself up by set number 3.

Not bad this Hurkasz! Looks like a Djokovic with style. A more aggressive version too.

They all look good playing each other. I'll be impressed when they all take out Nadal/Djoko/Fed is slams forever. Till now they haven't done.

https://www.atptour.com/en/news/toni-nadal-coaching-felix-auger-aliassime-april-2021
Don't you find those pictures ridiculous? 3 healthy gangsters being afraid of a virus ?

pretty good level between Djoko and Sinner. The youngster is not quite there yet but it's a question of months.

I ve got say as well how ridiculously easy is Nadal's draw compared to Djokovic.

same story time and time again!

Tenez, Sinner lost to Djokovic 6-4 6-2. Didn't you say a few days ago that Sinner had overtaken Djokovic already.

Tenez wrote:I ve got say as well how ridiculously easy is Nadal's draw compared to Djokovic.

same story time and time again!

Djokovic has got Tsipas, Zverev, Sinner, Karatsev (the man who was on form), Even Pouille whom Nadal probably fears too, Hurkcasz the man on form.....

And who has Nadal? Rublev only!

When are those hand picking rigged draws going to end?

HIS20RY wrote:Tenez, Sinner lost to Djokovic 6-4 6-2. Didn't you say a few days ago that Sinner had overtaken Djokovic already.

I was talking at equal age.

They are in fact many levels up from Djoko/Nadal 2011 even. They are playing at probably a 50% higher pace.

Look at Rome's final in 2011! 2 hours for a 6/4 6/4. Ridiculous! Completely outside the rules!
You call this peak Djoko and peak Nadal but they are only pushing the ball compared to today's pace.

Tenez wrote:

Tenez wrote:I ve got say as well how ridiculously easy is Nadal's draw compared to Djokovic.

same story time and time again!

Djokovic has got Tsipas, Zverev, Sinner, Karatsev (the man who was on form), Even Pouille whom Nadal probably fears too, Hurkcasz the man on form.....

And who has Nadal? Rublev only!

When are those hand picking rigged draws going to end?

Nice! Whoever was in charge of that draw should get a pay rise.

Tenez wrote:

HIS20RY wrote:Tenez, Sinner lost to Djokovic 6-4 6-2. Didn't you say a few days ago that Sinner had overtaken Djokovic already.

I was talking at equal age.

They are in fact many levels up from Djoko/Nadal 2011 even. They are playing at probably a 50% higher pace.

Any evidence for this 50% higher pace line?

I remember a few years ago you timed a few rallies and found that the the time per shot in the rally was reduced in 2017 compared to 2007. But then I timed a few other rallies, and found exactly the opposite; that 2007 was slightly faster. 
We need to find a data point that is representative and can't be cherry picked.

HIS20RY wrote:

Tenez wrote:

HIS20RY wrote:Tenez, Sinner lost to Djokovic 6-4 6-2. Didn't you say a few days ago that Sinner had overtaken Djokovic already.

I was talking at equal age.

They are in fact many levels up from Djoko/Nadal 2011 even. They are playing at probably a 50% higher pace.

Any evidence for this 50% higher pace line?

I remember a few years ago you timed a few rallies and found that the the time per shot in the rally was reduced in 2017 compared to 2007. But then I timed a few other rallies, and found exactly the opposite; that 2007 was slightly faster. 
We need to find a data point that is representative and can't be cherry picked.

Yes but you are famous for having denied real facts many times. The last one I have in mind is your "Sweden has a worse Covid result than most of Europe!" which of course is even more wrong now than then.

Tenez wrote:

HIS20RY wrote:But then I timed a few other rallies, and found exactly the opposite; that 2007 was slightly faster. 
We need to find a data point that is representative and can't be cherry picked.

Yes but you are famous for having denied real facts many times.

I timed the rallies and posted the timings, along with the videos, as an OP on this forum. Surely if I made any errors you would have just pointed it out given you had access to the same videos? Is there any data which shows shots are faster now, beyond anecdotes?

Tenez wrote:The last one I have in mind is your "Sweden has a worse Covid result than most of Europe!" which of course is even more wrong now than then.

Well, Sweden has more covid deaths than the average in Europe.

But regardless, that's not an argument which proves lockdowns increase covid spread. Covid spreads by human to human transmission, especially indoors. Any government policy which ensures there's less human to human contact will reduce spread. So therefore lockdown will reduce covid rates.

There are loads of reasons why countries may differ in terms of COVID mortality other than lockdown policy. Full of confounding factors. For example; rate of international travel, effectiveness of test and trace, compliance with test and trace, population density, hygiene norms etc. To isolate one variable in any cross country comparison and assume it means anything isn't rational analysis.

HIS20RY wrote:I timed the rallies and posted the timings, along with the videos, as an OP on this forum. Surely if I made any errors you would have just pointed it out given you had access to the same videos?

Oui oui! Bien sure!

HIS20RY wrote:Well, Sweden has more covid deaths than the average in Europe.

oui oui! Bien sure!

Tenez wrote:

HIS20RY wrote:I timed the rallies and posted the timings, along with the videos, as an OP on this forum. Surely if I made any errors you would have just pointed it out given you had access to the same videos?

Oui oui! Bien sure!

HIS20RY wrote:Well, Sweden has more covid deaths than the average in Europe.

oui oui! Bien sure!

I did French GCSE, we could have these debates in your native language and I would still win

@Tenez

Dan Evans just beat Djokovic 6-4 7-5. 
Do you think it’s because he’s evolved his game beyond Djokovic?

Who would win? Djokovic 2011 or Dan Evans 2021?

2 things as I watched a bit of it. I noticed that Djko was struggling with slow pace (Evans BH slice) as he has been v Simon in the past. He is a counter-puncher so Djoko likes a pacy ball on which he base his play he shots.

But I also think he is injured, has a niggle or something. He played much better v Sinner and by the end of his match yesterday he was struggling with his arm. Not sure what it was. But today he certainly did not try tp over hit balls.

HIS20RY wrote:

Tenez wrote:

HIS20RY wrote:I timed the rallies and posted the timings, along with the videos, as an OP on this forum. Surely if I made any errors you would have just pointed it out given you had access to the same videos?

Oui oui! Bien sure!

HIS20RY wrote:Well, Sweden has more covid deaths than the average in Europe.

oui oui! Bien sure!

I did French GCSE, we could have these debates in your native language and I would still win

Try to win them in English first!

Tenez wrote:2 things as I watched a bit of it. I noticed that Djko was struggling with slow pace (Evans BH slice) as he has been v Simon in the past. He is a counter-puncher so Djoko likes a pacy ball on which he base his  play he shots.

Yeah, that's a good observation.
Also not sure if you watched the Djokovic vs Medvedev AO match in 2019 but it was quite similar. Med wasn't as good back then, but kept it simple by hitting slow central balls. Djokovic took 4 sets and 4 hours to finish him off.

Tenez wrote:
But I also think he is injured, has a niggle or something. He played much better v Sinner and by the end of his match yesterday he was struggling with his arm. Not sure what it was. But today he certainly did not try tp over hit balls.

He didn't mention any injury in press conferences, or call for a trainer. He's also playing ATP Belgrade next week, which he would withdraw from if he had an injury presumably.
I think he may have tanked today because he clay season is more gruelling than normal because of the extra tournament in Belgrade. By losing today he basically has a normal clay schedule.

Tenez wrote:
Try to win them in  English first!

Have I ever lost a debate to you in English? C'est possible, main je ne peux pas penser à un exemple. Si nos débats étaient en français, ce serait plus égal.

HIS20RY wrote:...Also not sure if you watched the Djokovic vs Medvedev AO match in 2019 but it was quite similar. Med wasn't as good back then, but kept it simple by hitting slow central balls. Djokovic took 4 sets and 4 hours to finish him off.

That's why I have always said, it is tougher to attack than to defend. You simply take more risk and only skills and guts allows you to win big. Whereas you can win win big with sweat and not much guts....as long as you can sweat a lot.
But you know that now don't you?

He didn't mention any injury in press conferences, or call for a trainer. He's also playing ATP Belgrade next week, which he would withdraw from if he had an injury presumably.

He would not. Playing Belgrade is not telling us much. It is his home tournaments and may have some duties to play there.

I think he may have tanked today because he clay season is more gruelling than normal because of the extra tournament in Belgrade. By losing today he basically has a normal clay schedule.  

Maybe. But the fact he had not played since AO meant to me he was not 100% even before.

Davidovich Fokina...another Spanish player who made the most of the Spanish training "diet".

21 and has legs of a bull!

Tenez wrote:
Maybe. But the fact he had not played since AO meant to me he was not 100% even before.

He had a grade 1 abdominal muscle tear in Melbourne. I suspect that it's fully healed. Why would he play Monte Carlo if it isn't, and risk exacerbation? That would be pure stupidity on his part.

Tenez wrote:Davidovich Fokina...another Spanish player who made the most of the Spanish training "diet".

21 and has legs of a bull!

I see you love spain and its people. You are welcome to enjoy our country.

As Federer was saying: "Do not underestimate the physical side of Nadal's game". Rublev would have easily won by now if Nadal was a normal player. But as we have seen so many times before...Evenethough Rub is a break up in the second...the match is far from over.

naxroy wrote:

Tenez wrote:Davidovich Fokina...another Spanish player who made the most of the Spanish training "diet".

21 and has legs of a bull!

I see you love spain and its people. You are welcome to enjoy our country.

I have 3 sisters living in Spain. I love it....but sportwise it is a joke...though to be fair the UK is also the new DDR!

Nadal's mistiming a few FHs...had no problem v Dimi but we know he does not like pace....and Rub has plenty of it.

No one congratulating Rublev here?

I am not a fan of his game but he has pace and clearly deserved to win. He is simply a much better player than Nadal and will become much much better like most of his generation....does not mean he will will 23 FOs....just that his era will be populated with players which simply will have beaten the roadrunners, like Agassi and Courier who terminated the moonballing reign of Wilander.

Rublev played well. Big forehands, so deserves credit.

Nadal was awful though. Made tonnes of double faults in key moments, I think probably his record number of DFs in a best of 3. And when you are making that many DFs, it probably mentally affects the rest of your game too.

7 DFs in 3 sets might be a bit much  for Nadal but that's not the reason for his loss. He made more FHs due to Rublev's pace. Unlike Djoko, Nadal hates pace. You know that.

Had Nadal played another player....we could have had another 61 61 like the day before versus an in form Dimi. That what Nadal does when the player has no killing weapons.
So no excuse there, Nadal lost to a simply better version of Soderling or Murray.

Congrats to Rublev, no doubt a huge feature.