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USO 2015: The Finale

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Who Is Going To Win?

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Total Votes : 3

USO 2015: The Finale - Page 7 Empty Re: USO 2015: The Finale

Post by Tenez on Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:32 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Once Nole's energy level dropped - the match looked completely different.
Yes but I expected that. Djoko certainly arrived very fit having rested since Tuesday roughly (As Djoko's semi was nothing more than a training session). Considering how close the match was yesterday it certainly helped tipped the balance. I doubt Djoko would have had that form in that first set had he played a gruelling match on Friday.
I didn't.
I have never seen him so physical before, the continuous heavy ball thumping. It was a clear tactic to win the first set and tire Federer.

I am amazed Fed survived it and kept fighting. Just annoyed he missed some of those sitters. That is very unlike him.

If you look at any USO final before Murray/Djoko and co, you will notice how much more relax, less exhausting finals were. Fed v Hewitt USO04 just shows how less physical it was then. fed coudl hit through Hewitt who was extremely impressive for the time. Hewitt is a joke compared to Djoko.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:29 pm

I must admit, I find it difficult to relate to these new physical abilities.

I know they all work and train hard etc but it's gone to the level where it just doesn"t look human any more if you know what I mean.

It was like watching members of two different races play last night.

Especially in that first set.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:46 pm

Djoko is so light on his feet. He was very impressive in 2011 but as he says he is much better now even.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:44 pm

But he has always been light in his feet.
What makes you think he is better in that respect?
He even put on weight since.

To me the main difference was in the ball striking.
I read today he said that he just closed his eyes and hit as hard as he could.
And that goes with how I saw it.

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Post by Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:22 pm

Novak didn't save 20 of those 24 break points because he was faster.  He saved them because Federer had no belief on the bigger points and squandered so many of them.  There were a few times where Federer had Novak under the cosh and could wait for a better opportunity, but after the 4th rally, he'd power a forehand wide, removing all the stress from Djokovic (or he'd just net an easy winner).  The Fed from yesteryear would make those forehands, but this Federer should have chosen his shots better.  He just went out there thinking he had to play like god when he didn't.  Novak did not play a great game, he was decent.  Federer collapsed.  He was a bag of nerves from the first set, which the 1st serve in clearly indicates. He was netting forehands and serves like he was a rank 100 in the world.

It was sad to see , because he had the chance to win and had he turned up with some real belief, would have won.  I was impressed with Novak managing the crowd, but he didn't play at his 2011 standard for sure.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:35 pm

So according to you Fed lost mentally and not physically? Interesting coming from you.

Glad to hear that nearly 10 years past your so called "peak", it's the mind and not the legs that let federer down.

Ask yourself whether Roddick's retrieving skills woudl have stressed Federer as much.

Bottom line is had Fed converted those 2 or 3 of those BPs, the score would be reversed and you and Rotla would be very short of arguments.

Why Fed felt more pressure during those BPs? very easy to understand, Anything great woudl have been retrieved by Djoko (if fact even great shots were retrieved by Djoko) and that adds incredible pressure. The same reasons why Fed was wasting all those BPs v Nadal in Fed's heydays.

But clearly you two don't want to see it.


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Post by Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:29 pm

Yes, he definitely lost mentally A LOT more than physically THIS TIME.  But his mental weakness has been caused over many years of losing big leads and having battle scars (directly due to age and decline, like Nadal is now suffering).  He would not have played that way in 2004 or even 2008 at the US Open.  He was a shadow of his former self and beaten before he even got on court.  There's no other reason to lose 20 of 24 break points other than mental breakdown (and poor shot selection caused by mental fragility).

There's no contradiction here, it's just you see the world as flat.  You fail miserably at looking at so many different facets of human nature.  You see one or two variables, or one or two anomalies, and construct an entire theory or argument behind them.  It' largely why you believe most players on tour are dopers despite any credible evidence.

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Post by luvsports! on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:02 pm

I've interviewed the ITF anti doping chief FK. I know they are useless.

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Post by Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:29 pm

luvsports! wrote:I've interviewed the ITF anti doping chief FK. I know they are useless.

And that's proof that players on tour (even ones named specifically) are doping because?

We also only have your word that you HAVE interviewed them or that they are "useless".  That simply isn't evidence.


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Post by luvsports! on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:40 pm

When is there ever proof in other sports until a police raid, huge investigation happens?
Do you know the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio allowed in tennis?

Serena panic room? Other players' word? Greg Rusedski back in 04 saying if he was on nandrolone, everyone was. 

Tennis is not clean./

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Post by Tenez on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:44 pm

I don;t think we can convince FK of anything. He doesn't see what is "obvious", let alone what's happening behind curtains.

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Post by Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:47 pm

Tenez wrote:I don;t think we can convince FK of anything. He doesn't see what is "obvious", let alone what's happening behind curtains.

I have asked for proof, and received none.  If you said what you said in the media, you'd probably be charged with libel/slander. The onus is on you to provide concrete evidence, not hearsay.

As for what is "obvious", you don't even concede that age is the greatest factor in decline.


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Post by luvsports! on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:51 pm

I am guessing you believed in Lance then. He passed 500 tests right? Marion Jones too.

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Post by Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:53 pm

luvsports! wrote:I am guessing you believed in Lance then. He passed 500 tests right? Marion Jones too.

I had no opinion on Lance.  I did not go around saying he was a doper.  People had their suspicions of him and eventually he admitted it. But that does not make another person guilty.  You cannot seriously expect me to agree that because A did it, B must be doing it? Surely?  Also, cycling is another sport.

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Post by Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:05 pm

If you ask me likelihoods, that's a different question.  Imho the likelihood that Federer or  Murray are doping (or ever have) is 0.  Novak, perhaps VERY slightly more chance.  Nadal, it's 50/50.  The reason I say that is because he fits the profile of someone who would do anything to win and has an obnoxious attitude.

But if it came out that he didn't, I would not be shocked. Either way, I wouldn't be shocked.  But let's make this clear: I will never call him a doper or state things as a fact.  Not because I am afraid of the law, but because that's not how a civilized society operates.  We work on proof, not assumptions and hearsay.  If he turns out to be totally innocent, you guys have been demonizing someone for nothing.  I'll have no part in that!

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:10 pm

FK,
have you heard of Dr Fuentes case?
Do you know that the court judge ordered 200 positively tested blood samples of Spanish athletes TO BE DESTROYED.
Pure, undisputed proof your conscience is looking for.

Now why do you think that is?

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Post by Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:13 pm

noleisthebest wrote:FK,
have you heard of Dr Fuentes case?
Do you know that the court judge ordered 200 positively tested blood samples of Spanish athletes TO BE DESTROYED.
Pure, undisputed proof your conscience is looking for.

Now why do you think that is?

I certainly have.  But that does not prove that any of those happened to be Mr Nadal. Or any of the players you state are doping.  I never thought I'd be defending Nadal... but really I'm not.  I'm defending the rule of law and the way we conduct ourselves in a civilized society.  This kind of thinking leads only to conspiracies and witch hunts.

X is true so Y is true doesn't even work in mathematics.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:23 pm

Regardless of whether Nadal's name is or os not on that list, don't you think it's odd a judge ordered evidence to be destroyed and that the key witness in the case (Fuentes) received death threats?

=====================================================

Dr Eufemiano Fuentes, 57, told the Madrid court he worked on a private basis with athletes outside of cycling, the sport which was heavily implicated in the Operation Puerto investigation by Spanish police.
I worked with cyclists but also footballers, boxers, tennis players and athletes,” said Fuentes, whose case has taken seven years to reach court. But Fuentes told the court he was helping athletes deal with anaemia issues rather than performance-enhancing doping and at one stage said the EPO hormone-boosting supplement police found when they raided his premises in 2006 was part of his daughter’s cancer treatment.

======================================================

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/9835576/Cyclings-Doping-Doctor-Eufemiano-Fuentes-says-he-worked-with-football-boxing-tennis-and-athletics.html

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Post by legendkillar on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:27 pm

The thing about the whole doping argument, is if you keep coming back to Lance which I see on this forum a lot, it gets tired. As FK says, different sport. The worst case is that Lance was top of the sport and by all accounts the face of it too. 

If I was making the case for doping in tennis, the basis of my argument wouldn't be "look at Lance" it would be "look at Agassi" if the ATP was willing to accept a letter to clear someone, has the way it has tackled drug use in tennis improved? Looking at the cases of Canas, Gasquet and Cillic I'd say no.Winking

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Post by Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:31 pm

I do think it's odd, yes (although I have not done enough research into their reasoning).  But I don't start naming names of the players I personally believe to be doping.  No-one can do that because there is no proof and it's not even legal to do so. A judge destroying blood samples does not equal "omg X Y Z are doping".

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Post by Autumnleaf on Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:33 am

Good effort from Fed @USO, but no cup to show for it. This one feels like one that got away. Djokovic was very beatable in that final. It came down to lacking execution on the important points, both - on serve and return. He was broken several times when he was up 40-15. He reverted to rather passive play on the BPs, he only converted 1 out of 11 chances on Djokovic 2nd serve; this is terrible and way below expectation on "normal" return points where he did generally very well.

It's sad because he failed to take his chances, it's great he got those chances in the first place. So it's Djokovic with his first 3 slam year since 2011, largely untroubled by the opposition that is some levels below him with no challenger(s) on the horizon. Thanks again to Stan the Man for his impeccable performance at the FO. He single-handedly saved this year in the sport.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:15 am

Autumnleaf wrote:Good effort from Fed @USO, but no cup to show for it. This one feels like one that got away. Djokovic was very beatable in that final. It came down to lacking execution on the important points, both - on serve and return. He was broken several times when he was up 40-15. He reverted to rather passive play on the BPs, he only converted 1 out of 11 chances on Djokovic 2nd serve; this is terrible and way below expectation on "normal" return points where he did generally very well.

It's sad because he failed to take his chances, it's great he got those chances in the first place. So it's Djokovic with his first 3 slam year since 2011, largely untroubled by the opposition that is some levels below him with no challenger(s) on the horizon. Thanks again to Stan the Man for his impeccable performance at the FO. He single-handedly saved this year in the sport.
I actually don't think Djoko was very beatable. Fed played extremely well at times to give himself the opportunities for sure...but only Fed coudl have produced those shots to get there. The last time Djoko played like that was in my view at WTF last year when he creamed everybody to the final, including 3 and 0 inflicted to Stan.

I agree however about Fed BPs %age being poor. But let's not ignore the extra pressure he has on those. Had he served better, he  woudl have been more relaxed on Djoko's serve but even his first serve were returned with some purpose at first.

He is playing against someone who has double ATP points of the number 3 player (Murray). That says a lot about the difficulty of beating Djoko. However Fed coulda/shoulda won that match and yes in that respect it is very sad. I certainly think that had Djoko got a more difficult draw, more difficult semi, it coudl have easily shifted the balance. Fed again very unlucky. He works hard to make his run easy to the final but is dead unlucky to meet someone who has been resting the last 5 days before the final! Bloody unfair.

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Post by Autumnleaf on Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:21 am

As if the unlucky draw was not enough, the weather was unlucky too with the final being the coldest day in the whole tournament at only 22 degrees. This further advantaged Djokovic's defensive skills over Federer's sublime attacking game.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:20 am

I thought this was a nice little USO summary from S. Tignor:

==================================
NEW YORK—Sizzling heat, a crashing drone, debilitating cramps, a new roof, an arrest gone wrong, a frightening fall in the locker room, a rattling SABR, a gala sister act, a stunning upset, an even more stunning retirement: These were some of the headlines that made the 2015 U.S. Open such incident-filled entertainment over the last two weeks. Maybe in 30 years we’ll look back on it the way we look back on those free-for-all Opens from the 1970s...
==================================

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Post by Autumnleaf on Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:09 pm

Yeah, on the women's side it was an amazing tournament. Pity, the same can't be said about the men.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:57 pm

Yes, women certainly delivered this time!


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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:51 pm

Lovely! love

USO 2015: The Finale - Page 7 Flavia-pennetta-fabio-fognini

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:52 pm

Funnyini!!! jester

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Post by Tenez on Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:56 pm

Is Foginini Pennetta's boyfriend?

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:06 pm

Tenez wrote:Is Foginini Pennetta's boyfriend?
Fiance.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:15 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:Is Foginini Pennetta's boyfriend?
Fiance.
Wow! Glad to hear.

Two talented players.....they could produce a genius.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:17 am

Just read that Nadal didn't watch the final.
Was it because:

a) Nole was going to be one slam closer to overtaking him?
b) Fed was going to be one slam further away of catching up with?
c) Toni locked him in the panic room?
d) Something else?

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Post by Tenez on Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:23 am

I think the reason is that those champs would want to be there in the first place. Watching it reminds them there are not where they (think they) should be...and that hurts.

We have no choice so we watch. Winking

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:36 am

Tenez wrote:I think the reason is that those champs would want to be there in the first place. Watching it reminds them there are not where they (think they) should be...and that hurts.

We have no choice so we watch. Winking

Oh yes...it takes one to know one... Winking

I am painfully competitive!

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Post by Autumnleaf on Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:49 am

d) because it's not "real tennis" Winking

Seriously it's probably because he didn't care who'd win. We know Federer watched RG final, but that was probably only because of Wawrinka. I doubt he'd have watched it with any other player involved.

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Post by DEC1M8 on Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:02 pm

Tenez wrote:I think the reason is that those champs would want to be there in the first place. Watching it reminds them there are not where they (think they) should be...and that hurts.

We have no choice so we watch. Winking
Yes, that's probably why Rafa didn't watch.

I bet he would have been supporting Federer still though, you can tell from press conferences that Nadal respects Djokovic, but he's much more positive about Federer, gushing about him.

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Post by luvsports! on Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:09 pm

I guess because Djoko is a bigger threat to him. Djoko gatecrashing.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:29 pm

luvsports! wrote:I guess because Djoko is a bigger threat to him. Djoko gatecrashing.
Indeed..

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