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Who and why have some players more stamina than others?  Empty Who and why have some players more stamina than others?

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:09 pm

I find it really frustrating that Federer has to risk it all on every point while others, 3 players in particular, can safely outlast any brio from their opponents to arrive systematically at the business end of TMS and Slams.

We take this for granted but is this really normal? Why is Federer,  the 17 times GS champion, holding an unprecedented  23 consecutive semi-final record in slams only ranked 123 below the British player Bunny Austin and just better than Stefan  Koubek in 5th sets record? Just winning over 50% of those 5 setters going to the 5th? Nadal, Murray and Djoko being all ranked in the top 20 of that same list versus past and current champions?

Is this a mental flaw from Federer? Strangely he is number 1 of all time in TB W/L ratio so he must be doing well under pressure, on important points? No?

At first we were told Nadal was an exceptional fit natural player. One in a billion. At the time Murray had a very poor record on 5 setters, and Djoko was thought to be  an asthmatic or a quitter depending on whether you were a fan or not. Yet nowadays Murray and Djoko can easily outlast Nadal and are even happy to throw the long rallies to asphyxiate him.

Remember Federer said he worked very hard to be able to rally with Hewitt. Hewitt was the benchmark then. Federer was thought to be extremely fit. But it is clear he never reached that fitness conditions shared by his other 3 rivals.

I wish journalists were asking those very questions to the top players. Why is Murray collapsing on the court v Simon, in his DC match but yet 25s of O2 refill can get get him going like he had run?

We have discussed this before here but I am just surprised everybody out there accepts those weird facts and simply get on with it. Why can federer only win in conditions fast enough where that fitness plays a lesser role? Why is the tour persisting with those gruelling conditions favouring 3 players amongst which 2 of them no-one cares about?

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:50 pm

Yes, we (OTF - and that's not many people) discussed this point to death, but I think it is the right time now to raise it again.

Although three players have benefitted from attrition tennis, the conditions were originally created for Nadal, not Djokovic or Murray.

In 2006, young Djokovic famously said: "You don't have to play anything special to beat Nadal."

And he was right.

I am sure many other players thought the same as they were losing close matches to him.

Of course what Djokovic was not fully aware in 2006 (that was his forst match against Nadal) was the importance of fitness.

He lost many very close matches to him in the coming years.

Then, penny must have dropped (helped by Federer's "you need to get fitter" advice after Djokovic retired as a defending AO champion in 2009 to Roddick)
and he did get fitter.

I don't remember him retiring any more.

At the time, when Federer had no problem openly criticising and despising Djokovic, he never said a word agains the obvious, ridiculous fitness of his main opponent.

On the contrary, because of money, (not for love of sport), he kept being best buddies with him.

I am not saying Federer needed to do WADA's job, but he didn't have to go out of his way to be nice to and about Nadal.

Wilander "no ba**s" comment comes to mind.

As a result of that stony silence, Nadal is now owner of 14 slams, Djokovic 9, Murray 2.

I don't know what goes on in ATP players' council meetings, whether the topic of doping and slow conditions is mentioned.
I suspect not.

Why does it not?

We can all remember how Nadal resigned from his role there 4 years ago - in a huff, because he couldn't have his way and push 2 year protected ranking through.

I believe Federer stood up to him then.

That was one big victory, but at that same meeting Ljubicic did not get voted into Players representative office (Federer nominated him), instead, some anonymous Spanish character was elected - yes he was Nadal's nominee.

I wonder what he's been doing and fighting for there since.

From memory, this is the only little insight we as fans had of what goes on there...but imagine how much more we don't know about.

When I spoke to Kaethevong in Roehampton this summer, he listened very keenly and agreed with everything I said.
He was particularly moved with my last argument that current conditions will very soon kill SBH tennis.

He looked like he never thought about it.

Sorry, this is a bit longer than I normally post (thoughts came to me randomly as I was typing),  but just think there are more angles to the problem than the black and white scenario.

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Post by Daniel on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:09 pm

Genetics, diet, training, environmental factors, miles on the clock (how many matches have they played in career and how do they manage the tour).

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Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:14 pm

FedererKing wrote:Genetics
told you that Djoko and Murray did not have that genetics!

diet
which one? How come Murray and Djoko have a good one and no other tennis player can have something as efficient?
training
Not sure what training would make a player last longer? They all train very hard!

environmental factors
Euuhhh?

miles on the clock (how many matches have they played in career and how do they manage the tour)
Fed did not wait to be 34 to lose 5 setters. He was already losing 5th sets right and left v Hewiitt, Nalby, and others....when he was 25/7

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Post by Daniel on Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:38 am

All of those things are literally the answer to your question.  They explain almost every single occurrence of everything a human does or ever will do.  Unless they are also drugging, something to which there is literally no proof.  With Nadal, there is.


Even so, Murray and Djokovic aren't exactly performing miracles out there.  They won't be challenging for slam titles in 2 or 3 years time.  Nadal, on the other hand, runs like a lunatic and has "injuries" that suddenly make him play better and last longer.

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Post by legendkillar on Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:59 am

Depends on what your real belief is. Across sport as a whole. I was watching a piece on fast bowling in cricket and some of the injuries these bowlers accumulated was astonishing and they were burnt out by their late 20's early 30's. They spoke with some of the older bowlers of yesteryear and they said that today's cricketeers spent too long in the gym! I kinda feel that's a problem across all sports. Not enough time on the skill of the sport itself.

In terms of tennis. I have to say I raise eyebrows. With Federer we hear the back and even a case of mono and yet generates success. Nadal who by all accounts shouldn't walk let alone run about! Who again has achieved a high level of success. Djokovic with respiratory issues and achieved a high level of success. Murray who ripped 2 of the 3 ligaments in his ankle clean off and again has had a high level of success. You play tennis Tenbo and as does others here or other sports too. I played football for the best part of 12 years. Being 6'3 and carrying a lot of muscle, especially in the legs and playing for hours a week it was only a matter of time before my body gave up the ghost. I racked up a few injuries and by 26 I was done! When one has a job and the future to think about, you have to take the best advice and a doctor told me that my back and knees would be no more by the time I hit 40. So I quite football and played tennis (casually) I might add. Even now after say 1-2 hours, the morning after can be a drag. Getting out of bed. It's more I fall out!

I do think "Where would I be if I was a professional athlete with 'diets' and 'sports science'?"

I know I am not the metric to go by when comparing levels of professional athleticism. However, if my body was spent back then which was 8 years ago, how the hell do these guys do it??

Sports themselves have a lot to answer for. The conditions and environments. They want super human like standards and I don't think 'naturally' that is possible.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:01 am

Yes LK..though at 25-35 I expect our bodies to be able to recover swiftly from injury.....and in fact get tougher with age. Fed did his ankle end of 2006 (or was it 2005?) and yet managed to play the Masters a couple of weeks later in Shanghai and lost closely a 5 setter in final v Nalby.

My question relates to the difference in stamina level between Nadal, Djoko, Murray and the rest. It is really weird, especially in Murray's case who is like you 6'3 but built like a tank!

If you look at all athletes race nowadays, they all come close to a finishing race. I am not sure what tennis comes close in athletics as it is made of 100s of short sprints. It probably comes to a 5000m race equivalent but there is no such difference between the top racers there and the rest...same in all other racing sports. The exception woudl be probably Bolt but at least we know Bolt was an exception.....whereas in tennis we thought we had an exception (Nadal), now we have 2 more like him, and those 2 certainly did not look particularly fit when they started.

Why is the rest not catching up physically? Or is the fact that the rest do not which to run more and play safe like those 3? If so why? as the rewards are huge!

Yes we have guys like Coric who have clearly chosen that physical route....so we know it is possible. But what I find weird is that there is currently a huge gap between the 3 mentioned and the rest....and that no one seems to find it weird.

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Post by legendkillar on Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:41 am

I sort of see it as more of a mental thing. I think Cinncy proved that to a large extent. Look at the positions Dimitrov and Goffin put themselves in. Dimitrov is much more fitter than Goffin, yet between them they managed to blow a match winning position. I wouldn't attribute that to their stamina levels, just a massive weakness and gap in the mindset of these players. You look at how Federer played Murray and Djokovic and it was 'controlled' he got into those positions playing his tennis. To me Goffin and Dimitrov un-necessarily deviated from their plans when there was no need to.

As for the stamina levels. Nadal looks to have fallen off a cliff. Murray and Djokovic, apart from when playing each other haven't had many in the war of attrition matches.

It's a case of managing one's season. Federer has done this immaculately over the years and the rest have clued in. Murray for example, his scheduling has been pants this year. Playing Rome, which was a waste and playing Cinncy too. Both on the back of previous success. That keen to make no.2 in the world. It's a good ploy if you can secure points to cover the ones he has to defend close season and that is not counting the impending DC tie! I expect Murray to flounder at the US Open.

Djokovic continues to amaze me in how he stays fit without a major injury as such. I know he has had niggles, but on the whole seems healthy.

Do I believe they a miles ahead of the field in the fitness stakes? I'd say yes and no. I say with Murray he burns out much quickly than the other 2. It's contrasts though. When looking at say the players above 6'3. Does their frames allow them to push the boundaries of stamina when their game is probably more based on their shots? Look at Monfils. That man is fit. Yet is so un-economical with his tank. Players of the fitness ilk tend to be like cars and try and not to over-stretch their mileage.

I don't find it weird. I just find it frustrating that the field (some of it very talented) can make even Djokovic and Murray look ordinary and totally screw it up.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:52 am

I think in tennis it depends on how much a player wants to train on a given aspect of the game. Tennis needs physical strength, tennis skills with the racquet which would include hand-eye coordination , footwork etc. So depending on what a player considers his best chance to win, he chooses to spend time-resources to train for it.

Nadal and his coach in his early days itself would have known that his playing technique is not very good for shot making and hitting winners. To impact that kind of spin and pace, its not even a very efficient game. But defending, running chasing and outlasting was always giving him more success than hitting shots. So he totally worked in that direction.

Fed needed fitness and stamina so as to counter Hewitt's outlasting game. He always had his shotmaking skills and believed that's what gives him the best chance to win. He did work on his fitness but nothing even close like what Nadal did. So if Nadal is so much fitter to outlast, this is what he trained for. Fed wasn't ready to spend 5 hours in gym, instead he would on the tennis court practicing shots.

Can just about anyone on tour get the strength and stamina like Nadal? I think yes, in fact even more. We have 2 living proofs in Djokoivc and Murray. But not all players have those kind of resources or even interest to go that route. 

Yes, they are all pros, they all know the success it has brought to Nadal, Murray and Djokovic. But even then may not be ready to go the same route. 

Example: I don't think Wawrinka would trade his current game  and start to start training like Murray/Djokovic even though he knows that will get him much more success than he will with his current tennis. He likes his current game and would rather try to build on that.

Pors also have emotional attachment to some aspects of their game. They don't like to give it off easily.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:13 am

legendkillar wrote:I sort of see it as more of a mental thing.
You must be kidding. Being able to run fast and forever has not much to do with mental strength. However knowing you can run and outlast anybody sure can give you mental strength. You know the paralell I make with boxing. Jump on the ring versus Mike Tyson and let me know how you feel about your mental strength. However if you ump on the ring with as powerful a body as Tyson, then I am sure you will feel a bit better.

I think Cinncy proved that to a large extent. Look at the positions Dimitrov and Goffin put themselves in. Dimitrov is much more fitter than Goffin, yet between them they managed to blow a match winning position. I wouldn't attribute that to their stamina levels, just a massive weakness and gap in the mindset of these players. You look at how Federer played Murray and Djokovic and it was 'controlled' he got into those positions playing his tennis. To me Goffin and Dimitrov un-necessarily deviated from their plans when there was no need to.
But again, you know too well that Federer was being beaten systematically by Hewitt and Nalby young. It's only when he felt he was not pressurised to to go for risky shots that he reversed the H2H. It's only by becoming fitter that he was able to play "smart" shots as opposed to kamikaze ones. Same thing with Goffin and Dimi, Dolgo . When fresh they can handle Djoko and Murray but down 2 sets later, under fatigue, the risky shot, becomes riskier, especially under heavier pressure. This is exactly why Djoko and Murray chose to become very physical cause they know too well themselves how tough it is to pull winners under pressure. So their game is based on banking on their opponents being nervous. However to do that you need to be super fit. Nadal and Murray find themselves in the same situation when playing Djoko. They have to pull winners earlier or they are asphyxiated. We see then how mentally weak is Murray and nadal when they have to play Djoko. And Djoko woudl be as poor mentally if he were to play a fitter player.

As for the stamina levels. Nadal looks to have fallen off a cliff. Murray and Djokovic, apart from when playing each other haven't had many in the war of attrition matches.
Exactly...and have you noticed how his mental strength collapsed in the process? wasn't he labelled the "mentally strongest" player ever? Frankly he looks like he has the mental of a shrimp now that his fitness dropped.

It's a case of managing one's season. Federer has done this immaculately over the years and the rest have clued in. Murray for example, his scheduling has been pants this year. Playing Rome, which was a waste and playing Cinncy too. Both on the back of previous success. That keen to make no.2 in the world. It's a good ploy if you can secure points to cover the ones he has to defend close season and that is not counting the impending DC tie! I expect Murray to flounder at the US Open.
Federer has the luxury to be absurdly talented..But Goffin, Dimi, Dolgo are at least as talented as Djoko and co, considerably more if you ask me even, yet that talent falls apart as teh match goes on and the pressure increases. It's normal.

Djokovic continues to amaze me in how he stays fit without a major injury as such.
yes, he is built to run. Ugly tennis but ridiculously fit and flexible.

Do I believe they a miles ahead of the field in the fitness stakes? I'd say yes and no. I say with Murray he burns out much quickly than the other 2. It's contrasts though. When looking at say the players above 6'3. Does their frames allow them to push the boundaries of stamina when their game is probably more based on their shots? Look at Monfils. That man is fit. Yet is so un-economical with his tank. Players of the fitness ilk tend to be like cars and try and not to over-stretch their mileage.
But that's what amazing with Murray, he is 6'3 yet runs faster and longer than Ferrer. That would have been impossible 10 years ago.

I don't find it weird. I just find it frustrating that the field (some of it very talented) can make even Djokovic and Murray look ordinary and totally screw it up.
It would be completely reversed if the conds were even faster than in Cincy.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:22 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:I think in tennis it depends on how much a player wants to train on a given aspect of the game. Tennis needs physical strength, tennis skills with the racquet which would include hand-eye coordination , footwork etc. So depending on what a player considers his best chance to win, he chooses to spend time-resources to train for it.
But like in a 100m or marathon, they all work hard. we don't have in other sports such a fitness gap between the top contenders.

Nadal and his coach in his early days itself would have known that his playing technique is not very good for shot making and hitting winners. To impact that kind of spin and pace, its not even a very efficient game. But defending, running chasing and outlasting was always giving him more success than hitting shots. So he totally worked in that direction.
yes though I think the plan was drawn from the beginning, regardless of Nadal's strength or weaknesses. Hence chose to play with his LH!

Fed needed fitness and stamina so as to counter Hewitt's outlasting game. He always had his shotmaking skills and believed that's what gives him the best chance to win. He did work on his fitness but nothing even close like what Nadal did. So if Nadal is so much fitter to outlast, this is what he trained for. Fed wasn't ready to spend 5 hours in gym, instead he would on the tennis court practicing shots.
But Fed worked a lot too. He says that in every every interview he is asked. Why can Murray, Nadal and Djoko outlast him in such clear fashion! Really weird actually.

Can just about anyone on tour get the strength and stamina like Nadal? I think yes, in fact even more. We have 2 living proofs in Djokoivc and Murray. But not all players have those kind of resources or even interest to go that route. 
I agree with that. But knowing how much more millions those players woudl make by being as fit, why don't they?


Example: I don't think Wawrinka would trade his current game  and start to start training like Murray/Djokovic even though he knows that will get him much more success than he will with his current tennis. He likes his current game and would rather try to build on that.

Pors also have emotional attachment to some aspects of their game. They don't like to give it off easily.
You are right. But they must be gutted to be beaten by those guys...knowing that over a set, on a quick pace court, they are better. unfortunately tennis is played on slow courts over best of 3 or 5.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:27 am

Tenez wrote:
As for the stamina levels. Nadal looks to have fallen off a cliff. Murray and Djokovic, apart from when playing each other haven't had many in the war of attrition matches.
Exactly...and have you noticed how his mental strength collapsed in the process? wasn't he labelled the "mentally strongest" player ever? Frankly he looks like he has the mental of a shrimp now that his fitness dropped. 

Nadal is not losing now due to weaker mental strength, he is losing just because he has been figured out by the tour and slowly more and more players believe they can beat him. He has no aura of invincibility, that is now with Djokovic. He himself is lacking confidence and confidence is a big thing.

I don't think Nadal's fitness has now dropped any bit from 2006.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:35 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
Tenez wrote:
As for the stamina levels. Nadal looks to have fallen off a cliff. Murray and Djokovic, apart from when playing each other haven't had many in the war of attrition matches.
Exactly...and have you noticed how his mental strength collapsed in the process? wasn't he labelled the "mentally strongest" player ever? Frankly he looks like he has the mental of a shrimp now that his fitness dropped. 

Nadal is not losing now due to weaker mental strength, he is losing just because he has been figured out by the tour and slowly more and more players believe they can beat him. He has no aura of invincibility, that is now with Djokovic. He himself is lacking confidence and confidence is a big thing.

I don't think Nadal's fitness has now dropped any bit from 2006.
Maybe not from 2006, but certainly from 2011 or 13. There is not the same whip and zip in his strokes. It's pretty obvious to me. And that has seriously affected his mental strength. But I agree that the rest of the field also caught up...but wait and see if his 110% fitness returns!!!

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Post by legendkillar on Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:41 am

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:I sort of see it as more of a mental thing.
You must be kidding. Being able to run fast and forever has not much to do with mental strength. However knowing you can run and outlast anybody sure can give you mental strength. You know the paralell I make with boxing. Jump on the ring versus Mike Tyson and let me know how you feel about your mental strength. However if you ump on the ring with as powerful a body as Tyson, then I am sure you will feel a bit better.

I think Cinncy proved that to a large extent. Look at the positions Dimitrov and Goffin put themselves in. Dimitrov is much more fitter than Goffin, yet between them they managed to blow a match winning position. I wouldn't attribute that to their stamina levels, just a massive weakness and gap in the mindset of these players. You look at how Federer played Murray and Djokovic and it was 'controlled' he got into those positions playing his tennis. To me Goffin and Dimitrov un-necessarily deviated from their plans when there was no need to.
But again, you know too well that Federer was being beaten systematically by Hewitt and Nalby young. It's only when he felt he was not pressurised to to go for risky shots that he reversed the H2H. It's only by becoming fitter that he was able to play "smart" shots as opposed to kamikaze ones.  Same thing with Goffin and Dimi, Dolgo . When fresh they can handle Djoko and Murray but down 2 sets later, under fatigue, the risky shot, becomes riskier, especially under heavier pressure. This is exactly why Djoko and Murray chose to become very physical cause they know too well themselves how tough it is to pull winners under pressure. So their game is based on banking on their opponents being nervous. However to do that you need to be super fit. Nadal and Murray find themselves in the same situation when playing Djoko. They have to pull winners earlier or they are asphyxiated. We see then how mentally weak is Murray and nadal when they have to play Djoko. And Djoko woudl be as poor mentally if he were to play a fitter player.

As for the stamina levels. Nadal looks to have fallen off a cliff. Murray and Djokovic, apart from when playing each other haven't had many in the war of attrition matches.
Exactly...and have you noticed how his mental strength collapsed in the process? wasn't he labelled the "mentally strongest" player ever? Frankly he looks like he has the mental of a shrimp now that his fitness dropped.

It's a case of managing one's season. Federer has done this immaculately over the years and the rest have clued in. Murray for example, his scheduling has been pants this year. Playing Rome, which was a waste and playing Cinncy too. Both on the back of previous success. That keen to make no.2 in the world. It's a good ploy if you can secure points to cover the ones he has to defend close season and that is not counting the impending DC tie! I expect Murray to flounder at the US Open.
Federer has the luxury to be absurdly talented..But Goffin, Dimi, Dolgo are at least as talented as Djoko and co, considerably more if you ask me even, yet that talent falls apart as teh match goes on and the pressure increases. It's normal.

Djokovic continues to amaze me in how he stays fit without a major injury as such.
yes, he is built to run. Ugly tennis but ridiculously fit and flexible.

Do I believe they a miles ahead of the field in the fitness stakes? I'd say yes and no. I say with Murray he burns out much quickly than the other 2. It's contrasts though. When looking at say the players above 6'3. Does their frames allow them to push the boundaries of stamina when their game is probably more based on their shots? Look at Monfils. That man is fit. Yet is so un-economical with his tank. Players of the fitness ilk tend to be like cars and try and not to over-stretch their mileage.
But that's what amazing with Murray, he is 6'3 yet runs faster and longer than Ferrer. That would have been impossible 10 years ago.

I don't find it weird. I just find it frustrating that the field (some of it very talented) can make even Djokovic and Murray look ordinary and totally screw it up.
It would be completely reversed if the conds were even faster than in Cincy.

For the boxing Ten, you ask anyone who has stepped into the ring. It's not how hard you hit it's how you hit! Tyson in his pomp had power and speed. To top it off he had an insane level of aggression. He got done over by Buster Douglas for Christ's sake and he wasn't a poor mans Holyfield either! The point about the mental side Ten is that these players give in too easily. You may point to the fitness element, but there is baggage that comes with it. If I was playing say Djokovic my mindset wouldn't just be "This guy is not going to stop running" but also "This guy is a multi slam winner" so there is an element of prestige. Dolgo/Dimi/Goffin. I'll tell you now it wasn't fitness that let them down in those matches.

In those matches I don't believe for a second Djokovic and Murray were totally reliant on fitness. There wasn't high levels of scrambling like I have seen from them in previous matches. That was Dolgo/Dimi/Goffin capitulating on the final stretch. Look at the final. Did Djokovic show any intent like he did at Wimbledon? Not at all. That's not taking away from Federer. The point is that Federer 'knows' how to get the job done whereas Dimi/Dolgo/Goffin undid themselves spectacularly. Djokovic and Murray were both mentally poor at Cinncy and yet made the later stages. If they can't be beaten when dead on their feet, what hope is there? I blame the field and not them.

Yes Federer is insanely talented, but also extremely smart. Plays within himself. That is so key. He knows he can't beat Djokovic, Murray or Nadal from the baseline. It's like Petchey said. Federer's ability to re-invent himself as a player speaks level of the greatness he has. Take the Gasquet/Murray match. How many times have they met? Yet Gasquet did nothing different. Everything was a length ball. Chop and change it up. Yes it might not yield positive results all the time, but disrupting the rhythm can bring reward.

In terms of Murray/Ferrer. I believe Ferrer out-runs him all day. Look on Clay where I think best represents speed and stamina and Ferrer does him every time. I think that is more ballbashing wins out on the other surfaces.

It would be great if the conds would speed up! smiley

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Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:10 pm

legendkillar wrote:For the boxing Ten, you ask anyone who has stepped into the ring. It's not how hard you hit it's how you hit! Tyson in his pomp had power and speed. To top it off he had an insane level of aggression. He got done over by Buster Douglas for Christ's sake and he wasn't a poor mans Holyfield either! The point about the mental side Ten is that these players give in too easily. You may point to the fitness element, but there is baggage that comes with it. If I was playing say Djokovic my mindset wouldn't just be "This guy is not going to stop running" but also "This guy is a multi slam winner" so there is an element of prestige. Dolgo/Dimi/Goffin. I'll tell you now it wasn't fitness that let them down in those matches.
If it was not mental as you say, why is it they start actually stronger than Murray and Djoko? Do they realise those guys are slams winners only when it comes to finishing the match? I know it is mental when it comes to crossing the line, but it is always tougher to cross the lines when you are facing a physical player, and a physical player can cross the line with ease when he knows he is facing a shot maker as opposed to a physical player. Look at Djoko's display at the FO over the years. He simply could not do it v Nadal and had to wait for the 4th time though he was beating Nadal on clay before on B03. This rushed smash where he ended up touching the net in 2013 is the perfect example of the difficulty of crossing the line versus a physical player (there Nadal on clay in Bo5). Yet, Djoko was a multiple slam winner by then but made a schoolboy error that day cause it was very important point for him as he saw that finishing line. So you see here Djoko mentally weak v a fit player, but mentally string when facing a shotmaker. Multiple similar example with Murray.

In those matches I don't believe for a second Djokovic and Murray were totally reliant on fitness. There wasn't high levels of scrambling like I have seen from them in previous matches. That was Dolgo/Dimi/Goffin capitulating on the final stretch. Look at the final. Did Djokovic show any intent like he did at Wimbledon? Not at all. That's not taking away from Federer. The point is that Federer 'knows' how to get the job done whereas Dimi/Dolgo/Goffin undid themselves spectacularly. Djokovic and Murray were both mentally poor at Cinncy and yet made the later stages. If they can't be beaten when dead on their feet, what hope is there? I blame the field and not them.
Fed was a shadow of himself that day....cause again he was tired from his Murray match in the semi. That's the very point of this thread. Fed has been poor lining up matches since 2008. In fact since the game became much more physcal. hence his poor record in 5th sets.

Yes Federer is insanely talented, but also extremely smart. Plays within himself. That is so key. He knows he can't beat Djokovic, Murray or Nadal from the baseline. It's like Petchey said. Federer's ability to re-invent himself as a player speaks level of the greatness he has. Take the Gasquet/Murray match. How many times have they met? Yet Gasquet did nothing different. Everything was a length ball. Chop and change it up. Yes it might not yield positive results all the time, but disrupting the rhythm can bring reward.
Frankly there is no but here. You are either talented and therefore have the possibility to cut the points short or you don't. If Fed was fitter than Murray and Djoko, he woudl be smarter if he was banking on fitness rather than shotmaking...cause it woudl guarantee him the win, whereas going for shots is simply riskier...

In terms of Murray/Ferrer. I believe Ferrer out-runs him all day. Look on Clay where I think best represents speed and stamina and Ferrer does him every time. I think that is more ballbashing wins out on the other surfaces.
Not in that 2014 (or was it 2013?) IW or Miami final. Murray ran more than ferrer and outlasted him. In fact since 2012 Murray won all the tough gruelling matches. So I certainly do not think Ferrer can outlast Murray.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:21 pm

This 'hard work' for fitness is an abstract, it totally depends on the individual what he thinks is 'hard work' on fitness. I every year do 3-4 10KM competitive open runs and try to improve my time and I do work hard for it. But that not even 5% of what the pros need to put. Different people have different bench marks.


Fed might have worked hard by his own standards and that bencj-mark would mostly likely been Hewitt. But Nadal has definitely put many many more hours and resource in his fitness. Simply because that gave him the best chance to win. Fed could also put more into fitness and and gain more stamina. He certainly can, but at the cost of time he would train on court practicing shots? Is he ready to make that trade-off? Definitely not, he totally believes his best chance it when he gets his shots in.  

Similarly there are other players out there too, they may not have the success of Fed but the feeling is similar. 

Tenez wrote:I agree with that. But knowing how much more millions those players woudl make by being as fit, why don't they? 



smiley even at pro level everyone won't do everything that takes one to the top, we all have our boundaries. I am a professional in life and I work in NetApp Inc. and it may not be the highest paying Company out there. I clearly know that and and I also know that I can get into a bigger pay  if I put some extra effort to change to let's say Google Inc. But I'm  doing it? No

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Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:48 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:This 'hard work' for fitness is an abstract, it totally depends on the individual what he thinks is 'hard work' on fitness. I every year do 3-4 10KM competitive open runs and try to improve my time and I do work hard for it. But that not even 5% of what the pros need to put. Different people have different bench marks.
But the difference in training are pretty thin nowadays. Even Ljubici was spending 30h a week in the gym. There is a limit to what training one can do without affecting form in tournaments. This is why in other sports we do not have such gaps between top players and the rest.


Fed might have worked hard by his own standards and that bencj-mark would mostly likely been Hewitt. But Nadal has definitely put many many more hours and resource in his fitness.  
We have no proof of that. In fact when asked Nadal was saying he hardly trained. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1200180/Rafael-Nadal-talks-fashion-avoids-gym.html

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Post by legendkillar on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:00 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:For the boxing Ten, you ask anyone who has stepped into the ring. It's not how hard you hit it's how you hit! Tyson in his pomp had power and speed. To top it off he had an insane level of aggression. He got done over by Buster Douglas for Christ's sake and he wasn't a poor mans Holyfield either! The point about the mental side Ten is that these players give in too easily. You may point to the fitness element, but there is baggage that comes with it. If I was playing say Djokovic my mindset wouldn't just be "This guy is not going to stop running" but also "This guy is a multi slam winner" so there is an element of prestige. Dolgo/Dimi/Goffin. I'll tell you now it wasn't fitness that let them down in those matches.
If it was not mental as you say, why is it they start actually stronger than Murray and Djoko? Do they realise those guys are slams winners only when it comes to finishing the match? I know it is mental when it comes to crossing the line, but it is always tougher to cross the lines when you are facing a physical player, and a physical player can cross the line with ease when he knows he is facing a shot maker as opposed to a physical player. Look at Djoko's display at the FO over the years. He simply could not do it v Nadal and had to wait for the 4th time though he was beating Nadal on clay before on B03. This rushed smash where he ended up touching the net in 2013 is the perfect example of the difficulty of crossing the line versus a physical player (there Nadal on clay in Bo5). Yet, Djoko was a multiple slam winner by then but made a schoolboy error that day cause it was very important point for him as he saw that finishing line. So you see here Djoko mentally weak v a fit player, but mentally string when facing a shotmaker. Multiple similar example with Murray.

In those matches I don't believe for a second Djokovic and Murray were totally reliant on fitness. There wasn't high levels of scrambling like I have seen from them in previous matches. That was Dolgo/Dimi/Goffin capitulating on the final stretch. Look at the final. Did Djokovic show any intent like he did at Wimbledon? Not at all. That's not taking away from Federer. The point is that Federer 'knows' how to get the job done whereas Dimi/Dolgo/Goffin undid themselves spectacularly. Djokovic and Murray were both mentally poor at Cinncy and yet made the later stages. If they can't be beaten when dead on their feet, what hope is there? I blame the field and not them.
Fed was a shadow of himself that day....cause again he was tired from his Murray match in the semi. That's the very point of this thread. Fed has been poor lining up matches since 2008. In fact since the game became much more physcal. hence his poor record in 5th sets.

Yes Federer is insanely talented, but also extremely smart. Plays within himself. That is so key. He knows he can't beat Djokovic, Murray or Nadal from the baseline. It's like Petchey said. Federer's ability to re-invent himself as a player speaks level of the greatness he has. Take the Gasquet/Murray match. How many times have they met? Yet Gasquet did nothing different. Everything was a length ball. Chop and change it up. Yes it might not yield positive results all the time, but disrupting the rhythm can bring reward.
Frankly there is no but here. You are either talented and therefore have the possibility to cut the points short or you don't. If Fed was fitter than Murray and Djoko, he woudl be smarter if he was banking on fitness rather than shotmaking...cause it woudl guarantee him the win, whereas going for shots is simply riskier...

In terms of Murray/Ferrer. I believe Ferrer out-runs him all day. Look on Clay where I think best represents speed and stamina and Ferrer does him every time. I think that is more ballbashing wins out on the other surfaces.
Not in that 2014 (or was it 2013?) IW or Miami final. Murray ran more than ferrer and outlasted him. In fact since 2012 Murray won all the tough gruelling matches. So I certainly do not think Ferrer can outlast Murray.

Well IMO they started stronger because their game was clearly clicking into place and couple that with Djokovic/Murray playing so poorly. I would be 100% with you if Djokovic/Murray had finished the stronger in those matches. To me they didn't. In regards to Djokovic at the FO. Is it the fact he is playing a 'physical' player or guy who had only lost once there? Like I say there are other factors a player would consider an obstacle other than the style of play. I can't say for certain what a player thinks Ten, but I think they cloud themselves with a lot of doubt if they can't convert a 2 breaks of serve advantage.

Federer was below par, but his serving stats which I felt were key were less in Cinncy than in Wimbledon. At no point in that Cinncy match did Djokovic take the incentive. He tried the rallying ploy, but at that point the match was lost. Still, Federer had the job to do and done it. That is my point. Dolgo/Dimi/Goffin had a far greater advantage in their matches and still lost it. That speaks more of their mental frailty than physical one.

When I said but, I wasn't taking a caveat out of the talent side. I was saying he has the talent and the smarts. Like I said, playing within yourself. There are players who are talented make no question, but their application and shot selection comes into question. It happens to most players who are having a bad day. It's not even restricted to the roadrunners. Most who play Federer go big on their shots to avoid him taking the ball off their racquet!

It was Miami 2013 IIRC. An ugly day in tennis. Both went to pot mentally in that match and frankly it was a match won on the other losing it. Makes me shudder remembering it!

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Post by luvsports! on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:10 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:I sort of see it as more of a mental thing.
You must be kidding. Being able to run fast and forever has not much to do with mental strength. However knowing you can run and outlast anybody sure can give you mental strength. You know the paralell I make with boxing. Jump on the ring versus Mike Tyson and let me know how you feel about your mental strength. However if you ump on the ring with as powerful a body as Tyson, then I am sure you will feel a bit better.

I think Cinncy proved that to a large extent. Look at the positions Dimitrov and Goffin put themselves in. Dimitrov is much more fitter than Goffin, yet between them they managed to blow a match winning position. I wouldn't attribute that to their stamina levels, just a massive weakness and gap in the mindset of these players. You look at how Federer played Murray and Djokovic and it was 'controlled' he got into those positions playing his tennis. To me Goffin and Dimitrov un-necessarily deviated from their plans when there was no need to.
But again, you know too well that Federer was being beaten systematically by Hewitt and Nalby young. It's only when he felt he was not pressurised to to go for risky shots that he reversed the H2H. It's only by becoming fitter that he was able to play "smart" shots as opposed to kamikaze ones.  Same thing with Goffin and Dimi, Dolgo . When fresh they can handle Djoko and Murray but down 2 sets later, under fatigue, the risky shot, becomes riskier, especially under heavier pressure. This is exactly why Djoko and Murray chose to become very physical cause they know too well themselves how tough it is to pull winners under pressure. So their game is based on banking on their opponents being nervous. However to do that you need to be super fit. Nadal and Murray find themselves in the same situation when playing Djoko. They have to pull winners earlier or they are asphyxiated. We see then how mentally weak is Murray and nadal when they have to play Djoko. And Djoko woudl be as poor mentally if he were to play a fitter player.

As for the stamina levels. Nadal looks to have fallen off a cliff. Murray and Djokovic, apart from when playing each other haven't had many in the war of attrition matches.
Exactly...and have you noticed how his mental strength collapsed in the process? wasn't he labelled the "mentally strongest" player ever? Frankly he looks like he has the mental of a shrimp now that his fitness dropped.

It's a case of managing one's season. Federer has done this immaculately over the years and the rest have clued in. Murray for example, his scheduling has been pants this year. Playing Rome, which was a waste and playing Cinncy too. Both on the back of previous success. That keen to make no.2 in the world. It's a good ploy if you can secure points to cover the ones he has to defend close season and that is not counting the impending DC tie! I expect Murray to flounder at the US Open.
Federer has the luxury to be absurdly talented..But Goffin, Dimi, Dolgo are at least as talented as Djoko and co, considerably more if you ask me even, yet that talent falls apart as teh match goes on and the pressure increases. It's normal.

Djokovic continues to amaze me in how he stays fit without a major injury as such.
yes, he is built to run. Ugly tennis but ridiculously fit and flexible.

Do I believe they a miles ahead of the field in the fitness stakes? I'd say yes and no. I say with Murray he burns out much quickly than the other 2. It's contrasts though. When looking at say the players above 6'3. Does their frames allow them to push the boundaries of stamina when their game is probably more based on their shots? Look at Monfils. That man is fit. Yet is so un-economical with his tank. Players of the fitness ilk tend to be like cars and try and not to over-stretch their mileage.
But that's what amazing with Murray, he is 6'3 yet runs faster and longer than Ferrer. That would have been impossible 10 years ago.

I don't find it weird. I just find it frustrating that the field (some of it very talented) can make even Djokovic and Murray look ordinary and totally screw it up.
It would be completely reversed if the conds were even faster than in Cincy.

For the boxing Ten, you ask anyone who has stepped into the ring. It's not how hard you hit it's how you hit! Tyson in his pomp had power and speed. To top it off he had an insane level of aggression. He got done over by Buster Douglas for Christ's sake and he wasn't a poor mans Holyfield either! The point about the mental side Ten is that these players give in too easily. You may point to the fitness element, but there is baggage that comes with it. If I was playing say Djokovic my mindset wouldn't just be "This guy is not going to stop running" but also "This guy is a multi slam winner" so there is an element of prestige. Dolgo/Dimi/Goffin. I'll tell you now it wasn't fitness that let them down in those matches.

In those matches I don't believe for a second Djokovic and Murray were totally reliant on fitness. There wasn't high levels of scrambling like I have seen from them in previous matches. That was Dolgo/Dimi/Goffin capitulating on the final stretch. Look at the final. Did Djokovic show any intent like he did at Wimbledon? Not at all. That's not taking away from Federer. The point is that Federer 'knows' how to get the job done whereas Dimi/Dolgo/Goffin undid themselves spectacularly. Djokovic and Murray were both mentally poor at Cinncy and yet made the later stages. If they can't be beaten when dead on their feet, what hope is there? I blame the field and not them.

Yes Federer is insanely talented, but also extremely smart. Plays within himself. That is so key. He knows he can't beat Djokovic, Murray or Nadal from the baseline. It's like Petchey said. Federer's ability to re-invent himself as a player speaks level of the greatness he has. Take the Gasquet/Murray match. How many times have they met? Yet Gasquet did nothing different. Everything was a length ball. Chop and change it up. Yes it might not yield positive results all the time, but disrupting the rhythm can bring reward.

In terms of Murray/Ferrer. I believe Ferrer out-runs him all day. Look on Clay where I think best represents speed and stamina and Ferrer does him every time. I think that is more ballbashing wins out on the other surfaces.

It would be great if the conds would speed up! smiley

Ferrer looked dead vs Murray this year in the 4th set at the FO. Murray is definitely fitter than him now.

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Post by legendkillar on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:14 pm

If we are talking at this point in time, yes Murray would be. Only on the basis for me because of the age factor.

Did Ten mean fitter as in now or prior?

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Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:22 pm

legendkillar wrote:...Is it the fact he is playing a 'physical' player or guy who had only lost once there? Like I say there are other factors a player would consider an obstacle other than the style of play. I can't say for certain what a player thinks Ten, but I think they cloud themselves with a lot of doubt if they can't convert a 2 breaks of serve advantage.
Surely you don;t think that Djoko waited to be 4/1 up in the 5th to remember that Nadal had won 7FOs? No the reason he messed that smash is simply cause he rushed over the finishing line.....knowing that if he doesn't finish the point and game now, it will be harder a few games later.....and he was right. But the point is that those mental lapses are not down as much to mental strength as you suggest as who you play...knowing that things can only get tougher if you miss your opportunities. This has happened to all players, even the greatest...cause at the end it's down to fitness. Fitness gives you composure...even a mental edge knowing your opponent is getting tired.

Federer was below par, but his serving stats which I felt were key were less in Cinncy than in Wimbledon. At no point in that Cinncy match did Djokovic take the incentive. He tried the rallying ploy, but at that point the match was lost. Still, Federer had the job to do and done it. That is my point. Dolgo/Dimi/Goffin had a far greater advantage in their matches and still lost it. That speaks more of their mental frailty than physical one.
Well federer is certainly more sereine and experienced in that matter....but how many slams and TMS has he lost being MP up? 2 at the USO, 1 AO, a few TMS (Rome05).....he has probably one of the worst record of wasted titles.

It was Miami 2013 IIRC. An ugly day in tennis. Both went to pot mentally in that match and frankly it was a match won on the other losing it. Makes me shudder remembering it!
But Murray still had to cover a ridiculous amount of ground as Ferrer was actually the aggressor most of the match. This is what is abnormal....but those abnormalities have only been seen over the last 10 years. Before a tall guy could not outrun a small guy at pro level.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:24 pm

legendkillar wrote:If we are talking at this point in time, yes Murray would be. Only on the basis for me because of the age factor.

Did Ten mean fitter as in now or prior?

Seems pretty clear from 2012. I also believe Stamina seems to increase with age as TDF winners seem to prove.

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Post by legendkillar on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:37 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:...Is it the fact he is playing a 'physical' player or guy who had only lost once there? Like I say there are other factors a player would consider an obstacle other than the style of play. I can't say for certain what a player thinks Ten, but I think they cloud themselves with a lot of doubt if they can't convert a 2 breaks of serve advantage.
Surely you don;t think that Djoko waited to be 4/1 up in the 5th to remember that Nadal had won 7FOs? No the reason he messed that smash is simply cause he rushed over the finishing line.....knowing that if he doesn't finish the point and game now, it will be harder a few games later.....and he was right. But the point is that those mental lapses are not down as much to mental strength as you suggest as who you play...knowing that things can only get tougher if you miss your opportunities. This has happened to all players, even the greatest...cause at the end it's down to fitness. Fitness gives you composure...even a mental edge knowing your opponent is getting tired.

Federer was below par, but his serving stats which I felt were key were less in Cinncy than in Wimbledon. At no point in that Cinncy match did Djokovic take the incentive. He tried the rallying ploy, but at that point the match was lost. Still, Federer had the job to do and done it. That is my point. Dolgo/Dimi/Goffin had a far greater advantage in their matches and still lost it. That speaks more of their mental frailty than physical one.
Well federer is certainly more sereine and experienced in that matter....but how many slams and TMS has he lost being MP up? 2 at the USO, 1 AO, a few TMS (Rome05).....he has probably one of the worst record of wasted titles.

It was Miami 2013 IIRC. An ugly day in tennis. Both went to pot mentally in that match and frankly it was a match won on the other losing it. Makes me shudder remembering it!
But Murray still had to cover a ridiculous amount of ground as Ferrer was actually the aggressor most of the match. This is what is abnormal....but those abnormalities have only been seen over the last 10 years. Before a tall guy could not outrun a small guy at pro level.

Who knows Ten. I can say honestly when I have chucked in matches/performances I can honestly say the most trivial things un-nerved me. I remember a doubles match 2 years ago I played and we were 1 set up and a break up in the 2nd and I remembered when sitting down at the change of ends that I forgot my phone at the office and it bugged me so much I became a DF machine! It happens. I've played many a time in the zone and had a relatively clear mind. You'd be surprised at the most basic train of thought can de-stabilise an athlete. I can't speak for Djokovic. What I will say is if given the choice, wouldn't you rather face him at the USO than the FO? I am sure something like that might be a fleeting thought for anyone facing him.

Federer may have wasted titles, but by god he has won a few too! However, he didn't start off as a winning machine and like the others has to forge his own way in the game. It helps having god like talent, but it's not like the guy just shows up and plays. Everything he does off court in terms of prep is spot on the money. Making the most of your talent is a talent itself and I think the majority of players lack that edge. My point remains if you take the fitness element out of the game. How far in a match do you need to be ahead to win? Take Dimi. He lost 5 games in a row which included 3 service games in that final set and yet a year ago was going the distance with Murray at Acapulco and winning and ripping him a new one at Wimbledon. It was a proper bottle job in Cinncy!

I think that Miami match was more Ferrer just not converting the advantage. Murray's mobility is certainly better now he has shifted some of that bulk.

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