Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» Some humour for this forum
Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 EmptyFri Nov 29, 2019 6:51 pm by naxroy

» Generation Worthless
Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 EmptySun Nov 24, 2019 10:43 pm by BEL19VE

» World Tour Final - London 2019
Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 EmptySun Nov 24, 2019 12:23 am by naxroy

» Will Nadal ever win a Tour Finals title?
Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 EmptySat Nov 16, 2019 2:34 am by summerblues

» When cupcake draws can't save you
Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2019 10:16 pm by Daniel2

» General Election 2019: Advice
Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2019 7:01 pm by bogbrush

» Fall 2019 tournaments
Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2019 2:16 pm by legendkillar

» Has Rafa asked Fed to his nuptials, and would Fed go if asked?
Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 EmptyFri Oct 18, 2019 6:11 pm by barrystar

» FIFA World Cup, Russia 2018
Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 EmptyThu Oct 17, 2019 7:47 pm by hariprakesh321

December 2019
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
      1
2345678
9101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
3031     

Calendar Calendar

Affiliates
free forum


Nadal out for another 2 months

Page 5 of 13 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 11, 12, 13  Next

Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:48 am

.


Last edited by noleisthebest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total

noleisthebest

Posts : 27760
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:48 am

laverfan wrote:

A V2 moderator does not like clones on a forum. Diverse opinions make the discussions interesting, as do fans of different players. If Mikey wants to be on V2, he does not need my approval or references from me. Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 1071211947

OTOH, monotony and repetition do not promote healthy and civil debate.

Is that why Tenez and I were banned from there?

noleisthebest

Posts : 27760
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by SayonaRa on Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:59 am

Veejay wrote:Very good comment Tenez,I dont understand why everything has to be turned into some kind of conspiracy theory about conspiracy theories with LF
Is it not possible to make a comment about anything without the conspiracy theory card being played?
My comment had absolutely nothing to do with conspiracy of any sort,all I said was that it was been a wonderful 6 months without Nadal,I dont think its possible to read into that anymore then the literal meaning ( unless youre a conspiracy theorist Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 364988687 )

Veejay, un saluto!

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 4052418255 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 4052418255 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363


Last edited by SR on Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total

SayonaRa

Posts : 616
Join date : 2012-07-26

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by SayonaRa on Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:07 am

laverfan wrote:
SR wrote:
Oh, so my main point is ok but the language is not? You've lost me. But that's ok. At least I've figured out one thing: one set of rules for LF and another set for everyone else. I like you brand of objectivity. Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 3157886161

There is no such thing as a 'silent' ban which keeps moving and the player facing this so-called ban can make statements to the press of when he/she is coming back. How are the rules different for you and I?

E.g.,
1) you said: “monotony, repetition do not promote healthy and civil
debate,” yet you’re quite ok with yourself repeating and preaching endlessly your
favorite “conspiracy theory”, until Veejay, temporarily for now, put you in your place, no? (see post above)

2) you said “I have always been opposed to war and suspicion”,
but you see nothing wrong suspecting me as a “religious fanatic” no?

3) You’d frown upon others name-calling, but it is somehow
ok for you to call me a “religious fanatic”, no?

Yeah, I’m such a no-good religious fanatic and yet you won’t
leave me and my tainted “language” alone. BWHAHAHAHAHAHA
Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363

Finally, rich language, LF, similar to you-know-who’s usual scams,
oh, so humble, innocent and phoney. But still, an admirable effort! Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 3157886161 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 3157886161

SayonaRa

Posts : 616
Join date : 2012-07-26

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Veejay on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:56 am

laverfan wrote:
Veejay wrote:When have I ever equated Saddam Hussain and a war to sport?

Why is there a reference to Saddam on a Tennis discussion? You may want to ask Tenez. Winking

Veejay wrote:I have never linked the two together

Neither have I.

Veejay wrote:As for the rest,I take it you havent watched the movie yet..I suggest you do,you may actually learn something
I dont expect you to believe everything word for word,but its a pretty good insight into how the modern world's ruling class operates

I will take a look when I get a chance. When you reference a ruling class, you are falling into a ruling and ruled class distinction. It also indicates one is inferior to another, no matter which one is higher.

This reminds me of One Ring to Rule Them All mind-set. You can also be part of a ruling class, I am not sure when one can transition from ruled to ruling. It probably depends on your local politics and if you consider such a transition possible. Some of the seeds of WWI and WWII are based on similar concepts.

If you are into such things, perhaps some Freemasons and related literature would be worth reading. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_conspiracy_theories



Here,this should give you a better understanding of who/what the ruling class is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj0cuc559tA&feature=related

Veejay

Posts : 3377
Join date : 2012-06-19

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by legendkillar on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:15 pm

Not sure how war and all got onto this thread. If there is a difference of opinion can we not keep to that instead of attempted ridicule of opinion? I read most of the posts and then I get quite disheartened when interesting points get turned into everything un-related to the subject at hand. Your all making valuable contributions.

I feel laverfan deserves some respect on here instead of the relentless ridicule. She does take the time to address the points raised on her opinions and also contributes her opinions to others points/opinions.

legendkillar

Posts : 3192
Join date : 2012-10-02

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:23 pm

legendkillar wrote:Not sure how war and all got onto this thread. If there is a difference of opinion can we not keep to that instead of attempted ridicule of opinion? I read most of the posts and then I get quite disheartened when interesting points get turned into everything un-related to the subject at hand. Your all making valuable contributions.

I feel laverfan deserves some respect on here instead of the relentless ridicule. She does take the time to address the points raised on her opinions and also contributes her opinions to others points/opinions.

LK,
no ofence, but I am yet to see LF have opinion on anything. All she comes up with is ridiculing others' opinions in a bored and dogged way.
Even on 606v2, I don't remember her ever writing an interesting article and express a point of view, rather just produce various graphs, charts and tables to glaze over after two or three lines.
One of those posters that loves everybody and everything, where in fact just herself.

Her forte is telling how wrong we all are.
That may do it for you, but not me Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 1071211947

noleisthebest

Posts : 27760
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Tenez on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:27 pm

legendkillar wrote:Not sure how war and all got onto this thread. If there is a difference of opinion can we not keep to that instead of attempted ridicule of opinion? I read most of the posts and then I get quite disheartened when interesting points get turned into everything un-related to the subject at hand. Your all making valuable contributions.

I feel laverfan deserves some respect on here instead of the relentless ridicule. She does take the time to address the points raised on her opinions and also contributes her opinions to others points/opinions.

LK - Good comment...but it has to work both ways. We have the Mrs Hide side of LF here (maybe you have the Dr Jekil one on the other forum?) where she constantly ridicules a thread and the good points made by the posters.

You might for instance disagree with draw rigging or doping in tennis but there are bloody good arguments to support a case and therefore entertain a reasonable discussion, yet she mocks us as conspirationists without even providing sound counter arguments.

Tenez

Posts : 20362
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by legendkillar on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:28 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Not sure how war and all got onto this thread. If there is a difference of opinion can we not keep to that instead of attempted ridicule of opinion? I read most of the posts and then I get quite disheartened when interesting points get turned into everything un-related to the subject at hand. Your all making valuable contributions.

I feel laverfan deserves some respect on here instead of the relentless ridicule. She does take the time to address the points raised on her opinions and also contributes her opinions to others points/opinions.

LK,
no ofence, but I am yet to see LF have opinion on anything. All she comes up with is ridiculing others' opinions in a bored and dogged way.
Even on 606v2, I don't remember her ever writing an interesting article and express a point of view, rather just produce various graphs, charts and tables to glaze over after two or three lines.
One of those posters that loves everybody and everything, where in fact just herself.

Her forte is telling how wrong we all are.
That may do it for you, but not me Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 1071211947

To me she is not one to speculate on 'conspiracy'

I feel she does add opinion. If anything I would use the term she puts a different spin on certain viewpoints. If people can think one way, why can't they think the other type of thing. I know many posters on here to drill a variation of thinking into Amri, when maybe they could just do the same even if it is a little bit. Little steps lead to great things and all.

LF is a very knowledgable poster. I think all the time articles may not be to her favoured area, I am sure in time once tennis subjects branch out we might see different sides and views to posters smiley

legendkillar

Posts : 3192
Join date : 2012-10-02

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Tenez on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:30 pm

noleisthebest wrote:LK,
no ofence, but I am yet to see LF have opinion on anything. All she comes up with is ridiculing others' opinions in a bored and dogged way.
Even on 606v2, I don't remember her ever writing an interesting article and express a point of view, rather just produce various graphs, charts and tables to glaze over after two or three lines.
One of those posters that loves everybody and everything, where in fact just herself.

Her forte is telling how wrong we all are.
That may do it for you, but not me Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 1071211947

I agree with that. Her main effort was to agree (as well disagreeing ) with all by providing the vaguest stats.

She knows how to use google...I give you that.

Tenez

Posts : 20362
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by legendkillar on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:37 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Not sure how war and all got onto this thread. If there is a difference of opinion can we not keep to that instead of attempted ridicule of opinion? I read most of the posts and then I get quite disheartened when interesting points get turned into everything un-related to the subject at hand. Your all making valuable contributions.

I feel laverfan deserves some respect on here instead of the relentless ridicule. She does take the time to address the points raised on her opinions and also contributes her opinions to others points/opinions.

LK - Good comment...but it has to work both ways. We have the Mrs Hide side of LF here (maybe you have the Dr Jekil one on the other forum?) where she constantly ridicules a thread and the good points made by the posters.

You might for instance disagree with draw rigging or doping in tennis but there are bloody good arguments to support a case and therefore entertain a reasonable discussion, yet she mocks us as conspirationists without even providing sound counter arguments.

This is just my observation. I think sometimes when posters put forward some consistancies to support a view that maybe there is some foul play somewhere that they do so in a way to keep a closed view of what we see. To some, even me sometimes I find it confusing that posters may hang onto 'alternative' thinking as actual reality.

Yes there are some bloody good points and little facts that can point in the direction of negative going's on. Yes LF may be stubborn not so much to discuss than accept opinions offered. For me when we do reach un-chartered waters, it does get a bit silly.

Say for example with the LA. It was like blood to flurry of hungry piranhas. Like it was the breakthrough needed to prove doping exists in all sports and mroe so tennis. For me if we are looking for a breakthrough, the Fuentes case is where for me it lies. Something needs to come from that to prove that it has been going on and to what extent.

legendkillar

Posts : 3192
Join date : 2012-10-02

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:39 pm

LK,

what makes you think LF is a knowledgeable poster, because she's old enough to have seen Laver play?
C'mon...
I am the first to take my hat off to anyone who is knowledgeable, I love reading people's opinions esp strong ones however much I may disagree with them.
I wish I could agree with you on that one, but just because a few people say somebody is knowledgeable and that kind of turns into an unfounded myth means absolutely nothing.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27760
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by legendkillar on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:48 pm

noleisthebest wrote:LK,

what makes you think LF is a knowledgeable poster, because she's old enough to have seen Laver play?
C'mon...
I am the first to take my hat off to anyone who is knowledgeable, I love reading people's opinions esp strong ones however much I may disagree with them.
I wish I could agree with you on that one, but just because a few people say somebody is knowledgeable and that kind of turns into an unfounded myth means absolutely nothing.

No not entirely.

I take a wider view. Some people have technical knowledge aka Tenez/lydian/barrystar. They can talk about technical sides of the game and in such a way is refreshing. Others have a historical knowledge laverfan/HM Murdoch/bogbrush.

Some are lucky enough to have both like Tenez and laverfan for example. I don't agree with some of what Tenez says or even laverfan sometimes. I won't renounce their knowledge because I don't agree with it.

legendkillar

Posts : 3192
Join date : 2012-10-02

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Tenez on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:51 pm

legendkillar wrote:Say for example with the LA. It was like blood to flurry of hungry piranhas. Like it was the breakthrough needed to prove doping exists in all sports and mroe so tennis. For me if we are looking for a breakthrough, the Fuentes case is where for me it lies. Something needs to come from that to prove that it has been going on and to what extent.

But there is no point discussing the LA case now. It was interesting to do so when when we did not have the tangible proof. What you call piranhas are people wanting a good clean sport who finally come from the "conspirationists" corner and say how credulous some where to have believe the LA story in teh first place.

I do not need to wait for Fuentes/Puerto trial to draw conclusions.

1 - The fact a list was concealed is good enough for me to prove the point that other sports were affected

2 - Basic evidence of where the tennis has gone recently with 3 outstanding athletes happy to rally for ever when everybody else on tour is desperate to shorten those rallies against those 3.

Whatever comes of this trial in January is unlikely to change those 2 points.

Tenez

Posts : 20362
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by legendkillar on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:58 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Say for example with the LA. It was like blood to flurry of hungry piranhas. Like it was the breakthrough needed to prove doping exists in all sports and mroe so tennis. For me if we are looking for a breakthrough, the Fuentes case is where for me it lies. Something needs to come from that to prove that it has been going on and to what extent.

But there is no point discussing the LA case now. It was interesting to do so when when we did not have the tangible proof. What you call piranhas are people wanting a good clean sport who finally come from the "conspirationists" corner and say how credulous some where to have believe the LA story in teh first place.

I do not need to wait for Fuentes/Puerto trial to draw conclusions.

1 - The fact a list was concealed is good enough for me to prove the point that other sports were affected

2 - Basic evidence of where the tennis has gone recently with 3 outstanding athletes happy to rally for ever when everybody else on tour is desperate to shorten those rallies against those 3.

Whatever comes of this trial in January is unlikely to change those 2 points.

I disagree because if players are named it changes everything.

This is the whole thing. We suspect which isn't 'proof' in itself, but the Fuentes case will name players I hope. This is the thing. The LA case for me proved how deep corruption can go, but also highlights the persistent work the USDA did. That was what it was all about. The USDA making a stand.

If for example Nadal was on that list and made public. I think if he was named, Spain would out the others. Nadal will not stand alone if he is named. Other reputations will fall. I know this is what we seek for the sport to be clean. In all of this Nadal might not be the biggest scalp.

legendkillar

Posts : 3192
Join date : 2012-10-02

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:07 pm

legendkillar wrote:

No not entirely.

I take a wider view. Some people have technical knowledge aka Tenez/lydian/barrystar. They can talk about technical sides of the game and in such a way is refreshing. Others have a historical knowledge laverfan/HM Murdoch/bogbrush.

Some are lucky enough to have both like Tenez and laverfan for example. I don't agree with some of what Tenez says or even laverfan sometimes. I won't renounce their knowledge because I don't agree with it.

LK,

Let's not forget that most of the people from your knowledgeable list (HM Murdoch being an honourable exception) demanded that Tenez got banned from v2 behind his back via PMs.
Now they come here under the same of changed poster names and still can't help having a go.

I personally find it hilarious.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27760
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by legendkillar on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:16 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
legendkillar wrote:

No not entirely.

I take a wider view. Some people have technical knowledge aka Tenez/lydian/barrystar. They can talk about technical sides of the game and in such a way is refreshing. Others have a historical knowledge laverfan/HM Murdoch/bogbrush.

Some are lucky enough to have both like Tenez and laverfan for example. I don't agree with some of what Tenez says or even laverfan sometimes. I won't renounce their knowledge because I don't agree with it.

LK,

Let's not forget that most of the people from your knowledgeable list (HM Murdoch being an honourable exception) demanded that Tenez got banned from v2 behind his back via PMs.
Now they come here under the same of changed poster names and still can't help having a go.

I personally find it hilarious.

I don't recall bogbrush or barrystar for that matter asked for Tenez to be banned. As for LF and lydian, I don't know to the extent of their involvement.

Can Tenez confirm that this was the case?

legendkillar

Posts : 3192
Join date : 2012-10-02

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:19 pm

Gav, the mod at the time confirmed it himself when we went to JA. As I said, it was all behind closed doors, via PMs.
Feel free to ask Gav if he's still around.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27760
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by legendkillar on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:25 pm

Think Gav no longer resides on 606V2.

Not sure if the moderators have been approached about a pardon.

legendkillar

Posts : 3192
Join date : 2012-10-02

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:25 pm

legendkillar wrote:Think Gav no longer resides on 606V2.

Not sure if the moderators have been approached about a pardon.
In that case, feast your eyes on this:

http://www.ja606.co.uk/articles/viewArticle/109189

noleisthebest

Posts : 27760
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by legendkillar on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:39 pm

Cor I read through all 101 comments.

No idea why CC tried to 'inflame' the situation.

Quite ironic to see Tenez's comment on Lance Winking I shall call him the prophet of doom Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363

legendkillar

Posts : 3192
Join date : 2012-10-02

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Tenez on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:41 pm

legendkillar wrote:I disagree because if players are named it changes everything.

This is the whole thing. We suspect which isn't 'proof' in itself, but the Fuentes case will name players I hope. This is the thing. The LA case for me proved how deep corruption can go, but also highlights the persistent work the USDA did. That was what it was all about. The USDA making a stand.

If for example Nadal was on that list and made public. I think if he was named, Spain would out the others. Nadal will not stand alone if he is named. Other reputations will fall. I know this is what we seek for the sport to be clean. In all of this Nadal might not be the biggest scalp.

Having USADA coming with a complete dossier was great but frankly I did not need it. And what if UCI had blocked the trial as they tried? Would that have made LA clean?

The proof is simply in today's performance. Only fans are willing to believe it's possible with drugs but as Lendl and Courier were saying " I woudl have liked to have access to whatever they have nowadays". Like Santoro was saying "we know who dopes and who doesn;t when we play against our opponents". The physiology is very much teh same for all at that level. When you see someone playing with more energy than everybody else but for strange reasons can last longer and that day in day out, it's a big telling fact. When you just think it could be a freak of nature, a year later you have 3 freaks of nature, I rest my case.

The question is are those PEDs legal or illegal....but that question to me is irrelevant....it's simply PED, end of!

Blood doping legal in Spain till early 2007...therefore innocent....in Spain. Do we feel any better about it?

Tenez

Posts : 20362
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by legendkillar on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:48 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:I disagree because if players are named it changes everything.

This is the whole thing. We suspect which isn't 'proof' in itself, but the Fuentes case will name players I hope. This is the thing. The LA case for me proved how deep corruption can go, but also highlights the persistent work the USDA did. That was what it was all about. The USDA making a stand.

If for example Nadal was on that list and made public. I think if he was named, Spain would out the others. Nadal will not stand alone if he is named. Other reputations will fall. I know this is what we seek for the sport to be clean. In all of this Nadal might not be the biggest scalp.

Having USADA coming with a complete dossier was great but frankly I did not need it. And what if UCI had blocked the trial as they tried? Would that have made LA clean?

The proof is simply in today's performance. Only fans are willing to believe it's possible with drugs but as Lendl and Courier were saying " I woudl have liked to have access to whatever they have nowadays". Like Santoro was saying "we know who dopes and who doesn;t when we play against our opponents". The physiology is very much teh same for all at that level. When you see someone playing with more energy than everybody else but for strange reasons can last longer and that day in day out, it's a big telling fact. When you just think it could be a freak of nature, a year later you have 3 freaks of nature, I rest my case.

The question is are those PEDs legal or illegal....but that question to me is irrelevant....it's simply PED, end of!

Blood doping legal in Spain till early 2007...therefore innocent....in Spain. Do we feel any better about it?

This is whole issue I have. Why don't Courier and Lendl come clean about the susbtances used and the players who used them. It seems empty to say such things and not feel at least a little responsibility to well by the sport.

PED's should be illegal. In no way should they legislate some. Defies the logic of banning some.

The blood doping. I am still out on that one and it's use. What about players/athletes with bloodborn conditions/syndromes such as Dolgo that require transfusions? I am against blood transfusions if they are not being used for 'treatment' purposes.

legendkillar

Posts : 3192
Join date : 2012-10-02

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Tenez on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:49 pm

legendkillar wrote:
I don't recall bogbrush or barrystar for that matter asked for Tenez to be banned. As for LF and lydian, I don't know to the extent of their involvement.

Can Tenez confirm that this was the case?

No I woudl be surprised if BB and Barry did as they wrote a post complaining of my banning. Many complained actually which is a good thing.

The bottom line LK, I always found arguing with LF not very fruitful and I am glad that many here think alike. From what I remember LF was a respected member for being nice to everyone but I do not remember her as making good points shared by many unless it was common knowledge.

But anyway I don;t mind her posting here but I feel a lot of the points she makes are without interest. A typical example is when we say SHBH is dying once Federer retires she says what about GAsquet, Wawrinka, Kholi and Almagro? 5 to 10 players in the top 100, none in the top 10? what kind of argument is that?

Tenez

Posts : 20362
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:50 pm

legendkillar wrote:Cor I read through all 101 comments.

No idea why CC tried to 'inflame' the situation.

Quite ironic to see Tenez's comment on Lance Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 1071211947 I shall call him the prophet of doom Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363

This one is better than the previous one, it's the first one I set up on leaving v2 (I think Gav hides under "smeddaz" here):
http://www.ja606.co.uk/comments/viewAllComments/109014

Just had a look myself....unbelieavable!
Anway, enough about that, I'm happy as can be here Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 650269930

noleisthebest

Posts : 27760
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by legendkillar on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:54 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
I don't recall bogbrush or barrystar for that matter asked for Tenez to be banned. As for LF and lydian, I don't know to the extent of their involvement.

Can Tenez confirm that this was the case?

No I woudl be surprised if BB and Barry did as they wrote a post complaining of my banning. Many complained actually which is a good thing.

The bottom line LK, I always found arguing with LF not very fruitful and I am glad that many here think alike. From what I remember LF was a respected member for being nice to everyone but I do not remember her as making good points shared by many unless it was common knowledge.

But anyway I don;t mind her posting here but I feel a lot of the points she makes are without interest. A typical example is when we say SHBH is dying once Federer retires she says what about GAsquet, Wawrinka, Kholi and Almagro? 5 to 10 players in the top 100, none in the top 10? what kind of argument is that?

Gasquet and Wawrinka for sure have the potential to be 'top 10ers' I think Gasquet's time may have passed. Just hasn't looked like the player he was becoming 2007/08. I think Federer by any yardstick is impossible to match. The only player I can recall with a BH to nearly match was Ljubicic and he is no longer playing Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 3391208243

legendkillar

Posts : 3192
Join date : 2012-10-02

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Tenez on Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:00 pm

legendkillar wrote:This is whole issue I have. Why don't Courier and Lendl come clean about the susbtances used and the players who used them. It seems empty to say such things and not feel at least a little responsibility to well by the sport.

They were making fun of that AO final cause that final was comically ridiculous from a physical standpoint. Yes there was drugs before Nadal and there will be after but It comes a stage where it's so obvious it really affects the game and those who understand what behind to an extend where it's not tolerable anyloinger. This is what happened in cycling. It became too much of a farce...and this is where tennis is nowadays....regardless of what comes up in January. If anything bad was going to come up in January you can be sure that all the powers of tennis would prevent it to be released....like they managed till now.

PED's should be illegal. In no way should they legislate some. Defies the logic of banning some.

Well that we agree...but everything is done to make it legal (PRP, TUE, etc...) cause they do not want to catch the suspects. It's a concerted effort not to catch them. Isn;t it bizarre that everytime we get a name it;s through customs and police who themselves are not reallly trying to catch dopers.

The blood doping. I am still out on that one and it's use. What about players/athletes with bloodborn conditions/syndromes such as Dolgo that require transfusions? I am against blood transfusions if they are not being used for 'treatment' purposes.

I love Dolgo's game but if he is not fit enough he is not fit enough. What can we do? One of my favourite player was Ramesh Krishnan. He was chubby and loved his curry too much, and that was it. What about me? I am a bit chubby and on the late 40s, can I have something that makes me feel and play like a 20yo? No!

You are what you are and you do with what you have. Other will take the space vacated.

Tenez

Posts : 20362
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by legendkillar on Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:07 pm

I think it is harsh in Dolgo's case. If he is not having the transfusion near tournaments I think at least a concession can be made. It would cause a massive inbalance for people being treated with conditions and illnesses are allowed to play and others might not. A tricky one for the human rights brigade Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 563610107

It seems more is spent by pharmaceutical companies to produce masking/drugs for all to use than devising those that can detect cheats. No suprising that pharmaceutical companies thinking about the profit lines. Dealt with them before. Not pleasant people I can assure you.

Yes the AO was ridiculous, still I think ex-pro's owe to at least provide info of what to look out for in the locker room.

legendkillar

Posts : 3192
Join date : 2012-10-02

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Tenez on Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:10 pm

legendkillar wrote:Gasquet and Wawrinka for sure have the potential to be 'top 10ers' I think Gasquet's time may have passed. Just hasn't looked like the player he was becoming 2007/08. I think Federer by any yardstick is impossible to match. The only player I can recall with a BH to nearly match was Ljubicic and he is no longer playing Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 3391208243


Well yes but regardless SHBH a disapearing shot and the idea of having one winning a slam is laughable nowadays and there throwing a few names is not a counter argument, if anything as SB said it proves it's dying if not dead already.

Tenez

Posts : 20362
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by SayonaRa on Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:06 pm

legendkillar wrote:
I feel laverfan deserves some respect on here instead of the relentless ridicule. She does take the time to address the points raised on her opinions and also contributes her opinions to others points/opinions.

I agree. Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 3157886161

SayonaRa

Posts : 616
Join date : 2012-07-26

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:43 pm

noleisthebest wrote:LK,

what makes you think LF is a knowledgeable poster, because she's old enough to have seen Laver play?
C'mon...
I am the first to take my hat off to anyone who is knowledgeable, I love reading people's opinions esp strong ones however much I may disagree with them.
I wish I could agree with you on that one, but just because a few people say somebody is knowledgeable and that kind of turns into an unfounded myth means absolutely nothing.
Yeah...

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:23 pm

legendkillar wrote: I know many posters on here to drill a variation of thinking into Amri, when maybe they could just do the same even if it is a little bit.

Yeah...

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:27 pm

legendkillar wrote:Cor I read through all 101 comments.

No idea why CC tried to 'inflame' the situation.
He wasn't trying to inflame anything, Caledonian Craig was talking sense.
I have great respect for CC, he is a brilliant poster.

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:37 pm

legendkillar wrote:

I don't recall bogbrush or barrystar for that matter asked for Tenez to be banned. As for LF and lydian, I don't know to the extent of their involvement.

Can Tenez confirm that this was the case?
Lydian's not to blame, some people have used him as some sort of scape-goat, which always was entirely unfair. This is what Gav said: Actually Tenez it had nothing to do with 'my' ego.
All the admins and mods were in agreement to give you the boot, it was not just my call.


Now look at v2, a balance of posters; Nadal fans are there (HN, HE, Lydian etc.); Djokovic fans (Slasher, Socal, HM etc.); Murray fans (Danny, SL, CC, Carrieg etc.); Federer fans (Barrystar, BB, Julius, LM and many more).

Overall now there is a great variety of posters, and that's my opinion. Thumbs Up
There was a thread in doping, which had some mature and interesting comments, no insults and no one calling LF a 'old lady' just because they didn't agree with her.

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Veejay on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:30 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
legendkillar wrote:

I don't recall bogbrush or barrystar for that matter asked for Tenez to be banned. As for LF and lydian, I don't know to the extent of their involvement.

Can Tenez confirm that this was the case?
Lydian's not to blame, some people have used him as some sort of scape-goat, which always was entirely unfair. This is what Gav said: Actually Tenez it had nothing to do with 'my' ego.
All the admins and mods were in agreement to give you the boot, it was not just my call.


Now look at v2, a balance of posters; Nadal fans are there (HN, HE, Lydian etc.); Djokovic fans (Slasher, Socal, HM etc.); Murray fans (Danny, SL, CC, Carrieg etc.); Federer fans (Barrystar, BB, Julius, LM and many more).

Overall now there is a great variety of posters, and that's my opinion. Thumbs Up
There was a thread in doping, which had some mature and interesting comments, no insults and no one calling LF a 'old lady' just because they didn't agree with her.

If v2 is such a wonderful heaven filled with moderate fans of all sorts,why are you here commenting among the demon possessed extremist tennis fan,instead of over there Amritia?
In fact,youre on here more then anyone else,one could even suggest that you like to comment here far more then you seem to on v2


Last edited by Veejay on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

Veejay

Posts : 3377
Join date : 2012-06-19

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Veejay on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:31 pm

SR wrote:
Veejay wrote:Very good comment Tenez,I dont understand why everything has to be turned into some kind of conspiracy theory about conspiracy theories with LF
Is it not possible to make a comment about anything without the conspiracy theory card being played?
My comment had absolutely nothing to do with conspiracy of any sort,all I said was that it was been a wonderful 6 months without Nadal,I dont think its possible to read into that anymore then the literal meaning ( unless youre a conspiracy theorist Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 364988687 )

Veejay, un saluto!

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 4052418255 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 4052418255 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363

saludos SR,k tal estas?

Veejay

Posts : 3377
Join date : 2012-06-19

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:33 pm

I post more on v2 than I do on here VJ Thumbs Up

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Veejay on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:36 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:I post more on v2 than I do on here VJ Thumbs Up

Doesnt look that way to me,but thats not the point,if its so horrible here on ourforum then why are you here?

Veejay

Posts : 3377
Join date : 2012-06-19

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:37 pm

Veejay wrote:

If v2 is such a wonderful heaven filled with moderate fans of all sorts,why are you here commenting among the demon possessed extremist tennis fan,instead of over there Amritia?
In fact,youre on here more then anyone else,one could even suggest that you like to comment here far more then you seem to on v2

Veejay,
Amri has been sitting here all evening waiting for someone to pick a fight with... I think that's how he earns his browny points on v2 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 1071211947

noleisthebest

Posts : 27760
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:39 pm

Veejay wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:I post more on v2 than I do on here VJ Thumbs Up

Doesnt look that way to me,but thats not the point,if its so horrible here on ourforum then why are you here?
When did I say that?

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:39 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Veejay wrote:

If v2 is such a wonderful heaven filled with moderate fans of all sorts,why are you here commenting among the demon possessed extremist tennis fan,instead of over there Amritia?
In fact,youre on here more then anyone else,one could even suggest that you like to comment here far more then you seem to on v2

Veejay,
Amri has been sitting here all evening waiting for someone to pick a fight with... I think that's how he earns his browny points on v2 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 1071211947
Yeah...

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Veejay on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:46 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
Veejay wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:I post more on v2 than I do on here VJ Thumbs Up

Doesnt look that way to me,but thats not the point,if its so horrible here on ourforum then why are you here?
When did I say that?

You didnt say it,you implied it by saying that v2 is a better place since Tenez was given the boot and I assume you include NITB too
You implied that since they left v2 is a better more moderate place where no "cyber bullying" takes place,which suggests that you along with others thinks Tenez should be fully blamed for all the horrible unfair things that happened there before cause once he left it all stopped
You also claimed all the mods on v2 were behind the idea of banning Tenez,but yet you followed Tenez here,why?

Veejay

Posts : 3377
Join date : 2012-06-19

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:51 pm

Edit: Message edited out.
Veejay, I've sent you a PM, we can continue this debate there.


Last edited by Amritia3ee on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edited out)

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:54 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:No I don't think Tenez was all to blame Veejay.
He wasn't actually aggressive towards other posters, although he did have a narrow minded agenda.
There were actually many other aggressive posters that stopped posting once Tenez left. I don't want to name anyone.
Anyway we continue this conversation by PM if you want to continue this Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 3157886161

scroll down a few comments on this page and find one you need to apologise for if you have the guts to...since you seem to be haunting people to do the same all the time....

http://mytennislounge.com/comments/index.php?shell=4467&pageno=247&view=1

Just because we put up with you , doesn't mean we are stupid, Amri...

noleisthebest

Posts : 27760
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Veejay on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:59 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:Edit: Message edited out.
Veejay, I've sent you a PM, we can continue this debate there.


Thanks to NITB for quoting the part you edited out Amritia Laugh
Yes I saw you sent me a pm,no need to continue this "debate"any further....everyone ( except you) already knows how much you love being here Big Grin

Veejay

Posts : 3377
Join date : 2012-06-19

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by laverfan on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:11 am

@Veejay... six wonderful months without Nadal.

Do you want him to recover (or cycle-up as you call it) and come back to the sport, despite your steroid use 100% certainty?

@SR... non-believers is a phrase used to denigrate religions.

SR wrote:Day by day, seems to me like the silent ban is the new truth and the injury issue has been THE conspiracy all along.

Repetition like the silent-ban theory, which other posters echo on OTF, just because ITF under article 14.x gives you privacy. B samples are tested with or without player representation. Please see http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_61472_original.PDF Sections 7, 8 and 1413.

The ITF will not comment publicly on the specific facts of a pending case (as opposed to general description of process and science) except in response to public comments attributed to the Participant or his/her representatives.
(Article 13.3 - also see strong opinion #5).

@Tenez/@NITB... 12v12 and my article on v2 where I analysed all draws (not just slams and masters and non-masters) lead to a 35-29 (Federer-Djokovic v Federer v ??). The whole 1/4096 discussion was an arbitrary series to come up with a non-existent theory. 'Tom___' has done a 5-sigma and 2-sigma analysis. This is the 35-29 analysis. (Caveat: It is a table and Google did not build it for me Winking - http://www.606v2.com/t33610-names-numbers-and-nole#1468719)

@NITB... I have strong opinions (and you are welcome to search other forums I frequent - MTL, 606 and 606v2 - I use the same nick Winking )

1. Top 4 do not use PEDs.
2. ITF/WADA can do more - Biological Passports across all sports.
3. Spain must publish Fuentes' lists. If Nadal is shown to be on that list based on public information. Nadal (and perhaps Spain for DC) should be stripped of every single penny and every single trophy he has from Tennis and be banned for life from every sport, not just Tennis, at every level.
4. Variety in Tennis is necessary for the survival of the sport. SHBH and DHBH both must be allowed as a player's choice.
5. If a B sample is confirmed, WADA must announce results publicly, irrespective of an individual sport's policy.

There are others, but we can discuss it further, if you so desire.

@LK/@IMBL... Rose


Last edited by laverfan on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:19 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edited for quote and article reference.)

laverfan

Posts : 1070
Join date : 2012-08-14

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by SayonaRa on Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:55 am

The ITF will not comment publicly on the specific facts of a pending case (as opposed to general description of process and science) except in response to public comments attributed to the Participant or his/her representatives.



Oh, LF, here I was concerned about your safety in NY and it turns out you were busy
the whole day researching silent ban. Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 2033450363 Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 3157886161


Thanks, I’ll take a look at all the info you provided and reply in due course. But sorry to disappoint at the moment, but I'll go with historical evidence, as exemplified below, which proves that it is possible for an athlete to dope AND get away with it:

ARMSTRONG was NOT being exposed and stripped of
his 7 titles until he was safely ensconced in retirement. That’s almost a
decade after his initial doping history.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/22/sport/lance-armstrong-profile-cycling-usada/index.html?iid=article_sidebar


American track and field star MARION JONES won 5
medals at the 2000 Sydney Olympics and claimed to have passed over 150 tests in
the prime of her career. Seven years later, she confessed that she had been
using PEDs the whole time.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/04/AR2007100401666.html


“AGASSI's revelation that he failed a dope test but then lied his way out of
a possible three-month ban will be seen as further evidence that tennis was and
continues to be soft on drugs.” Agassi did served a 3-month silent ban. But his
failed drug test was NEVER made public. We only learned about his doping
history from his biography years later.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/oct/28/andre-agassi-wada-doping


So here is what I think LJ. I do admire your tireless efforts in defending the indefensible (as far as I'm concerned Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 1071211947), I truly do, as I'm also in the research business. I appreciate how important it is to accept or refute a hypothesis with the appropriate supportive evidence.

However, based on past sports history and nadal's current tennis history, I believe that a true champion does not pull highly
QUESTIONABLE vanishing acts in self-exile. Funny, a true tennis champ does not
avoid the tennis court just to turn around committing himself to playing GOLF
TOURNAMENTS. Fishy, no? The stench is sickening.

In the on-going Nadal saga, the only thing true and honest is Nadal fans’ LOVE for him, REGARDLESS. Elsewhere, are we supposed to believe in the usual wishy-washy stories of the most fraudulent and notorious king of gamesmanship
in tennis history? Not me, thank you very much.


Last edited by SR on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:38 pm; edited 2 times in total

SayonaRa

Posts : 616
Join date : 2012-07-26

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by SayonaRa on Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:06 am

"@SR... non-believers is a phrase used to denigrate religions."

LF, says who? What’s the basis of this random statement?
Can you clarify what you’re trying to say?

SayonaRa

Posts : 616
Join date : 2012-07-26

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Veejay on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:06 am

@Veejay... six wonderful months without Nadal.

Do you want him to recover (or cycle-up as you call it) and come back to the sport, despite your steroid use 100% certainty?


No,I think the sport is better off without all his cheating tactics,bullying intimidation and other shenanigans,thats why I say its been a wonderful 6 months without him

Veejay

Posts : 3377
Join date : 2012-06-19

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Tenez on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:19 am

I differ slightly with Vee. I woudl not have minded his cheating as much had they not also make it easier for him to reach finals by slowing conds and tricking draws. Though there is still a slim chance it was down to luck I woudl have liked to see a bit more Nadal v Djoko and as 2011 revealed, like 2007 and 2008 actually, it may have been tricky for Nadal.

However, There is no denial that without super-fit Nadal Federer would have nearly 30 slams by now but we woudl have had rather lame finals between Federer winning anybody else like he did before Nadal arrived. SO Nadal has made the game a bit more exciting...just a shame they have really balanced teh conds too much in his favour. I am 100% sure that with faster balls at Wimby for instance Nadal woudl not even have reached the finals and may have gone out early to guys like Querrey, Youzhny and so on with every year less experience on grass and less hope of winning it. Same woudl have applied at the USO in fact.

Tenez

Posts : 20362
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

Nadal out for another 2 months - Page 5 Empty Re: Nadal out for another 2 months

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 5 of 13 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 11, 12, 13  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum