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Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by Tenez on Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:12 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:..Fed perhaps had his last chance to win a slam.
perhaps...but if anything it showed that he was still in with a shot...it's all down to one player. He proved he is the real number 2....and again I am pretty sure it woudl have been much closer had he played Djoko on Friday.

I have always said that the problem when you are getting older is the succession of tough matches. And it proved to be so today.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:18 am

AceofDeath wrote:I thought he had more a chance this year than last year, proven wrong just now.

Kudos to Novak and NITB on a deserved 9th Grandslam Thumbs Up Hug

Well, I really was cheering for Fed today. All the match.

It didn't even feel weird. I suffered every time his BH was bludgeoned...and jumped to my feet with hands in the air every time he won a point with a volley.

And loved all those amazing overheads...


Nole was a like a ball-machine to me in that match. Definitely a new experience.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:45 am

Tenez wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Fed has become slowly a much easier opponent for Djokovic than even someone like Cilic, or Murray or even some other lower ranked double handers.

Ten, nitb, you can keep hailing Fed's BH but its just such a figured out weakness, there is just NO way Fed can get out of it. Can't you see how he has to protect is so much by running around that totally exposed the court on the FH where Fed has always been slower to defend.

What can Fed do here?

Only thing that can save Fed was his serving. The moment it falls anything below 70%, Fed is doomed. No touch, feel or quick hands can save it.

Fed perhaps had his last chance to win a slam.
Well I say the BH was his weakness again....but you are a bit swift dismissing that Fed had the first chance to win teh first set, and if he did not it was not down to his BH, but his serve that was below his whole tournament standard.

Likewise, I coudl tell you that Stan's BH did not even help him v Gasquet.

It's not so much Fed's BH the weakness here as Djoko's mouvement which makes targets so much smaller. Anybody would have been uneasy against fed today.....except Djoko who simply can get to any ball.

Even if Fed had won the 1st set would that guarantee that he would win? I don't give tired excuse as easily as some others. Fed last year was fresh beating Raonic in easy no-running 3 sets and had also won the 1st set in the finals. Then what happened? So how can I say playing Murray on Friday tired Fed and so he lost? How can I say had Fed won the 1st set, he would have won eventually.

Fed's serving is more under pressure against Djokoivc more than anyone else maybe bar Nadal. Djokovic returns good, Djokovic is too solid off both wings and moves too good and more over reads Fed's serving quite well. Serve is the only thing that could keep this Fed in game against Djokovic.


Tenez wrote: Likewise, I coudl tell you that Stan's BH did not even help him v Gasquet. 


Of course it helped. The no. of errors he sprayed from the FH, it could have been over in 3 sets. Stan didn't lose that match due to his BH. But for Fed its just too obvious that its it BH. He is under added pressure to serve better just to protect that BH.

Right now Stan has a better chance than this Fed to beat Djokovic in a slam. Fed can keep saying he is playing the best tennis ever, but he simply isn't.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:01 am

it's very simple rotla, Fed was not moving as well in that final. If you didn't see it, fine but quite a few of us did, including Henman and roddick. and it's no excuse. It's a reason why the match was not nearly as close as it could have been.

Regarding the bh, it's fair to say that it's his BH that gave him the crucial breaks v murray, executing BHs that only him can do thanks to his eye/hand coord and yes this BH is certainly more exposed by djoko who is much quicker on court.

all is all a fresher fed woudl have flaired better. whether he would have won, it's another story....but the first 2 sets were close enough to at least raise the question...and as he tired even more, the match was less and less balanced.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:18 am

Fed's physical fatigue even if it was, it was due to mental fatigue of not being able to do anything to hurt the opponent. How much he struggled to win the 2nd set, saving 7-8 set points. There was no way he could keep his level up then on wards. He was mentally sapped by then, going through the motions.

By the 4th set even his first serves were so readable. 

You say fresher Fed would have flaired better, but I just don't know how much fresh you would want him to be. He was on court for about 10 hrs before the finals. So 6 matches 10 hours. Isn't that fresh enough? What he should get a bye in QF and semis to have any chance to win the final?  

Its simply that Fed's game has been figured out too well by Djokovic and his team. And at this age, Fed can't do anything about it. Fed is clearly the 2nd best player points wise, but Murray has a better chance to win slams now.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:31 am

rotla,
I can assure you Fed was hurting Nole with his attacking game in the first set. He had him on the back foot.

But at 6:5, Nole  did not allow Fed to pounce on his service game like did with Murray.
He started hitting the ball very hard and that threw Fed off.
I think that was the reason he lost the first point in the TB on his serve and the rest of it went pretty quickly.

Fed's superb competitors pride had him throw all he had left into the 2nd set, and the crowd really carried him in that TB.

But he was spent physically as he had to hit the ball hard himself.

Federer is not the muscleman and does not seem to have superhuman reserves of energy.

Nole kept pounding his BH with all his might to totally tire his arm...so as a result the serve went, as well...only Federer's spirit kept going strong while his body kept fading.

Mentally, he was as solid as he has ever been.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:53 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Fed's physical fatigue even if it was, it was due to mental fatigue of not being able to do anything to hurt the opponent. How much he struggled to win the 2nd set, saving 7-8 set points. There was no way he could keep his level up then on wards. He was mentally sapped by then, going through the motions.

I have never seen Fed being mentally tired before being physically tired. Not in the last 12 years. His main losses were systematically against players who drained him physically. So I don’t buy that Rotla. Fed was pump up by his Friday display and entered the court positively as shown by his taking the lead first…as he usually does. However the fact is Djoko gets to every ball and sends it really giving Federer little margin to go for…added with some fatigue, he never was able to play like he could. Djoko’s confidence grew and that made it much harder.

By the 4th set even his first serves were so readable.
....Well yes he was not serving nearly as well by then.

You say fresher Fed would have flaired better, but I just don't know how much fresh you would want him to be. He was on court for about 10 hrs before the finals. So 6 matches 10 hours. Isn't that fresh enough? What he should get a bye in QF and semis to have any chance to win the final?
It's not the hours, it's how much ground you cover and at what pace. Playing Murray requires 15% more running than playing Simon and 20% more than playing Agut. It's those kind of matches that hurt a 34yo. You can see already in 2009 US final that Federer is largely better than Delpo for 2 sets nearly 3 but his fitness when he was only 28 was not nearly as good despite having a "straight" set win v Djoko the day before. Delpo only managed to get back in the match when Fed lost half a step....and by losing half a step, you are forced to run twice as much. Exactly why Federer the attacker ends up running more than Djoko the retriever!

Its simply that Fed's game has been figured out too well by Djokovic and his team. And at this age, Fed can't do anything about it. Fed is clearly the 2nd best player points wise, but Murray has a better chance to win slams now.
It's one thing being figured out, it's another thing to have the legs to get to every ball. So far only Djoko nowadays has that court speed to get to fed's aggressive shots...and it is made even easier at the end of a slam when your opponent is 34. I am not sure Djoko coudl have beaten Federer the first week. Good legs or not.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:15 am

And I also noticed Rotla that you were quite silent on Friday after his Murray win. It was Federer's BH which allowed him to win crucial points at key games....BH I have yet to see Stan pull. It was also the many BH returns which put Murray in trouble and allowed Fed to get through the rounds easily at Wimbledon....against the biggest servers.

So though I recognise that v Djoko Stan's BH hurts more, Fed hold a 20+ wins versus Djoko too so his BH might not be as bad as you think as Stan more often than not struggled v Djoko.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by Autumnleaf on Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:06 pm

@rotla: How do you know that someone is "mentally fatigued"? What exactly do you observe that leads you to that conclusion?

Re. serve: wasn't quite as good placement-wise and consistency-wise as in the tournament so far. There's also a noticeable drop in average first serve speed between the first 2 sets (118 MPH) to 4th set where it dropped to 115 MPH. If that was a tactical decision, it didn't pay off.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:32 pm

If mental stress there is, it is to have lost that first set...knowing that physically the task become more difficult as the match lengthens.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:32 pm

Tenez wrote:I have never seen Fed being mentally tired before being physically tired. Not in the last 12 years. His main losses were systematically against players who drained him physically. So I don’t buy that Rotla. Fed was pump up by his Friday display and entered the court positively as shown by his taking the lead first…as he usually does. However the fact is Djoko gets to every ball and sends it really giving Federer little margin to go for…added with some fatigue, he never was able to play like he could. Djoko’s confidence grew and that made it much harder.

Not seen? Okay what was the 2008 RG final about? What was AO 2012 SF about where just one passing winner from Nadal in the 2nd set turned the whole macth upside down. Why did Fed cry after the AO2009 loss to Nadal. There are many matches where Fed looks mentally fatigued because he just couldn't do a thing about the result of the match. I know you'll not agree.



Tenez wrote:It's not the hours, it's how much ground you cover and at what pace. Playing Murray requires 15% more running than playing Simon and 20% more than playing Agut. It's those kind of matches that hurt a 34yo. You can see already in 2009 US final that Federer is largely better than Delpo for 2 sets nearly 3 but his fitness when he was only 28 was not nearly as good despite having a "straight" set win v Djoko the day before. Delpo only managed to get back in the match when Fed lost half a step....and by losing half a step, you are forced to run twice as much. Exactly why Federer the attacker ends up running more than Djoko the retriever!

You give the tired excuse very easily for Fed, just like the injured excuse Nadal fans bring in. You say as if Slams were best of 1 set, then only he can win it because he will tire out no matter what. And then put a claim for him to be playing better than 2004-07?

USopen 2009 is a not the best example you pick. Delpo is not a retriever. Fed lost that because Delpo just below him off the court.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:35 pm

Autumnleaf wrote:@rotla: How do you know that someone is "mentally fatigued"? What exactly do you observe that leads you to that conclusion?

Re. serve: wasn't quite as good placement-wise and consistency-wise as in the tournament so far. There's also a noticeable drop in average first serve speed between the first 2 sets (118 MPH) to 4th set where it dropped to 115 MPH. If that was a tactical decision, it didn't pay off.
It shows in Fed's reaction after losing a point in the match. He was okay in the first set, but frustrated in the 2nd. Then by 3rd onwards he was just going through the motions, coz nothing was there for him to fall back on, Djokovic was just not getting affected at all. That how it ended with a double break in the 4th.

His mental fatigue is so obvious on his reactions.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by Autumnleaf on Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:42 pm

@rotla: Without a doubt your observations are correct and I believe that there was fatigue (in the sense of no longer believing you can win), but what caused that fatigue?

In the first set Roger was the superior player, no reason to get frustrated over a point. However, he still lost it after a poor tiebreak which he even finished on a doublefault iirc. Good reason to get frustrated there I guess.

The frustration in the 2nd set could shows that he either hadn't given up the match yet or that he at least cared enough to want a respectable score; it was getting harder, he had to fight hard for this set. Novak was the slightly superior player in the 2nd set, but Fed is a highly competitive fighter as seen in many instances. He won that set.

3rd and 4th - had suddenly given up, no point caring anymore. His average first serve speed went down, groundstrokes dropped shorter on average, movement deteriorated, missed every single running FH in those 2 sets.

But the question is why? Nothing for him to fall back on? He had just won the 2nd set and levelled the match! I think, that's something to fall back on. Up to that point there was little separating the 2 players. If there is any moment to believe in your chances, this is it. And truly, everybody was talking about how Djokovic was shaken and that he must be careful to not get lost in negative emotions.

Momentum should have been with Roger, but somehow it didn't matter, same as it didn't matter Wim 08 or AO 09. 

Now you could say that giving up/ not believing you can win is "mental" fatigue and I would agree here, but the "mental" fatigue isn't the reason, it's the consequence. In my experience, "physical" and "mental" fatigue are so interconnected, that it's hard to separate the 2 aspects, I even wonder whether they truly are 2 aspects or just different appearances of the same phenom. The notion that there is a mind, separated from the body is a western cultural construction after all. This idea is completely alien to many other cultures.

http://science.jrank.org/pages/8477/Body-Brief-Tour-Western-Dualism-from-Plato-Plastic-Surgery.html

That concept moreover is challenged by modern science, based on studies involving patients with brain-damaging diseases/ accidents.

Even everyday observations will give an indication that body and mind might not be as distinct as some seem to think. 

Usually when you are feeling fresh, you will fight and there won't be any "mental fatigue"- issues. In that case champions will always believe in their chance and why not? They might not win, but surely they will go down in style.

When you are feeling weary however... the smallest thing will appear incredibly tough to do. You can be so exhausted to not even care anymore about something that's ususally incredibly important to you, you just want to get it over with. In that case, yes, it will be incredibly hard to believe in your chance. You might even hit routine forehands on BP long.

You might feel, that @Tenez gives "tiredness" as an excuse too often, but it is a very valid "excuse". After all outlasting a player and taking his legs away from him is a valid, often-used strategy in tennis. And Fed is susceptible to that strategy, but he certainly not the only one who shows clear signs of fatigue. Look at Murray at the AO 15 final for another example of a player meekly going down in the 3rd/4th set. He also suddenly didn't believe in his chance anymore or didn't care anymore, why? He certainly believed in the first 2 sets.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:17 pm

Autumnleaf wrote: In my experience, "physical" and "mental" fatigue are so interconnected, that it's hard to separate the 2 aspects, I even wonder whether they truly are 2 aspects or just different appearances of the same phenom. The notion that there is a mind, separated from the body is a western cultural construction after all. This idea is completely alien to many other cultures.

...Usually when you are feeling fresh, you will fight and there won't be any "mental fatigue"- issues. In that case champions will always believe in their chance and why not? They might not win, but surely they will go down in style.
True. As I said in the case of federer I can't remember him looking mentally tired before looking phyically tired first. Even in the masters cup in 06 which he lost v Nalby in 5 sets after having an ankle injury, you can see how hard he fights and only exhaustion got the better of him after having fought to the end v Nalby.

But it's quite funny that I am "accused" of finding excuses when I am the one who has always refused age as an excuse in Fed's case. If I wanted to find Fed excuses, I would have said like many that Fed declined since 2007 "as his record shows".

However we know Federer suffered from playing matches in succession since 2008...he even talks about it in one of his interview in 2008, saying that TMS1000 were actually harder than slams because of no day in between. And of course with age his recovery time can only increase…so 7 years on…..at the end of a grand slam he is not going to look too good.

Bottom line, it was obvious. He got very frustrated in that 2nd set cause he felt he could, or certainly needed to win that first set, to get a chance.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by Autumnleaf on Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:32 pm

Becker confirms the use of the wearing-down-strategy.

“Obviously we knew that Roger is going to go all power, he is not going to wait, and go for slow baseline rallies,” Becker said post-match. “He started the way he finished with Murray, very aggressive, not giving Novak any time, any rhythm.”
“There was not much between them in the first two sets, but as the match went on I had a good feeling. I felt that eventually Novak would get hold of Roger’s serve, get him into baseline rallies, take advantage of his younger legs, and that was the difference.

(...) I felt if Novak could get hold of the return, get Roger involved in the baseline rallies, just the extra point all the time, eventually he was going to wear him down.”


Becker quoted in ATP braingame

But yeah, it's all mental.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:46 pm

I saw Federer losing fitness in the second set even....but he certainly did his best to fight as much as possible.

Funny as Becker seems to enjoy that as he was one of the least mobile player of his generation.

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Re: Wimbledon, Day 13, Men's Final

Post by Autumnleaf on Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:08 pm

Tenez wrote:I saw Federer losing fitness in the second set even....but he certainly did his best to fight as much as possible.

Funny as Becker seems to enjoy that as he was one of the least mobile player of his generation.
He certainly likes Roger's style, but he is Djokovic's coach and they will do what maximizes Djokovic's chances of winning. I had a bad feeling when I saw him among the crowd in the SF. Winking

I think I liked him back then as a player, but I was just a child, so memories are hazy. Big Grin After his career I took notice of him from time to time in the tabloids.  Yikes


Last edited by Autumnleaf on Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:16 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : ETA)

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