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ATP 500: Queens, Halle

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ATP 500: Queens, Halle Empty ATP 500: Queens, Halle

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:56 pm

Week two of the new, prolonged grass season.

Queens and Halle are now 500 tournaments and with all players except Djokovic (Raonic returning back from injury) taking part, it feels like we finally have proper grass tournaments before Wimbledon.

Let's hope we can get a Masters 1000 on grass soon.

ATP 500 QUEENS, grass

ATP 500: Queens, Halle Mds

Order of Play:
http://www.atpworldtour.com/posting/2015/311/op.pdf

ATP 500: Queens, Halle Tennis-ball-on-grass-with-daisies-shutterstock_1426075331

ATP 500 HALLE, grass

ATP 500: Queens, Halle Mds

Order of Play:
http://www.atpworldtour.com/posting/2015/500/op.pdf


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECVGUM3QMRU


Last edited by noleisthebest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:00 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:03 pm

Some very nice matches straight away:

Gasquet-Bolleli
Federer-Kohlschreiber

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Post by Tenez on Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:40 pm

Yes some great draws here...especially in Queens.

can you see the link to the draws you post NITB? I see a picture ikon but not the draw.....Was meant to ask you before as this is not something new...but just wondered whether anyone else could view the draw in your OP.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:40 pm

Yes some great draws here...especially in Queens.

can you see the link to the draws you post NITB? I see a picture ikon but not the draw.....Was meant to ask you before as this is not something new...but just wondered whether anyone else could view the draw in your OP.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:03 pm

I checked, and I can see the draws on the ipad, but not on desktop for some reason although I did this thread on the desktop.
I am pretty sure it was like that even before this new ATP website. No idea why, though.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:08 pm

Yes it was like that before the new site. I may not have authorised pictures in the settings. nevermind.

The ATP site is a bit better today than yesterday.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:08 pm

yes, there are some great first round matches:

Wawrinka-Kyrguos, Nadal-Dolgopolov, Cilic-Mannarino, Kokkinakis-Chardy

I can't believe Hewitt is still going!

And this is just Queens

In Halle we have: Gulbis-Stakhovsky, Thie-Nishikori, JJ-Cuevas (I wonder how he'll play on grass) Robredo-Berankis....

And although Haas is older than Hewitt, I kind of can't say the same for him as I did for Hewitt - "I can't believe he's still going".

You were right when you said Hewitt started it all...in some way he has many similarities with Nadal, esp in spirit, except that Hewitt is more obvious.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:55 pm

Anyone watching Fed-Kholi?

What a treat to see Federer flashing around the court like a cat.
And what a contrast to that slugging torture at RG.

It's all on display: soft hands, incredible footwork and movement, all the variety....
Just beautiful!

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:58 pm

Fed could play another 5 years if it was all on grass...

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:00 pm

Kholi also looking good.
Both getting used to fast conditions, just lovely to see two SBH-ers allowed to enjoy their tennis.

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Post by legendkillar on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:08 pm

I am watching it.

I am like a pig in shit (pardon the language)

I got Halle on Sky and Queens on BBC!

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:10 pm

I know what you mean Big Grin

Some sublime shots from Federer, he is enjoying himself almost as we are!

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:13 pm

They could make grass season longer by 2-3 weeks and scrap useless Indian Wells/Miami...who needs 4 masters 1000 on hard courts!

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Post by legendkillar on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:14 pm

It's always good to catch the great man. Hewitt is taking his final bow at Queens, but he isn't anywhere near the force he once was which is sad to see.

Nothing like tennis on the grass. How it should be smiley

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Post by legendkillar on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:17 pm

noleisthebest wrote:They  could make grass season longer by 2-3 weeks and scrap useless Indian Wells/Miami...who needs 4 masters 1000 on hard courts!
I always felt get rid of Cinncy. Offers nothing at all. A Grass Masters is a must.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:20 pm

Yes, tennis really shines on grass, footwork needs to be perfect, yet we've had players win Wimbledon without even having soft hands.
So I am enjoying matches like this doubly these days as they are rare.

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Post by legendkillar on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:21 pm

I like how Federer shifts into re-positioning compared with the scampering others do.

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Post by legendkillar on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:24 pm

It's a crime Grass doesn't play the way it should at Wimbledon. Those days are gone when outfoxing one's opponent was the way to win. Some played it with elegance and others a raw unrefined style. Nothing like contrasting styles. Now we have a conveyer belt of baseliners!

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:24 pm

legendkillar wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:They  could make grass season longer by 2-3 weeks and scrap useless Indian Wells/Miami...who needs 4 masters 1000 on hard courts!
I always felt get rid of Cinncy. Offers nothing at all. A Grass Masters is a must.

The calendar could definitely look better...a masters 1000 before, not after AO to start with...
And why not play Paris Bercy & Asian swing on carpet?
Have the first half of the year slow, and the second fast.

That would be interesting to see...how "the stars" would adjust...and I am sure ATP would still be making lots of money.

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Post by legendkillar on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:30 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:They  could make grass season longer by 2-3 weeks and scrap useless Indian Wells/Miami...who needs 4 masters 1000 on hard courts!
I always felt get rid of Cinncy. Offers nothing at all. A Grass Masters is a must.

The calendar could definitely look better...a masters 1000 before, not after AO to start with...
And why not play Paris Bercy & Asian swing on carpet?
Have the first half of the year slow, and the second fast.

That would be interesting to see...how "the stars" would adjust...and I am sure ATP would still be making lots of money.
Agreed.

I would like to see each Slam have a Masters before it and a return of carpet events. Not the mud pits we get pamper with smiley

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:32 pm

legendkillar wrote:It's a crime Grass doesn't play the way it should at Wimbledon. Those days are gone when outfoxing one's opponent was the way to win. Some played it with elegance and others a raw unrefined style. Nothing like contrasting styles. Now we have a conveyer belt of baseliners

Yes...and what's worse young players are following the trend.
I blame double backhand.

It's so easy to hide lack of talent with it and modern strings.

Set point Kholi! Yikes



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Post by legendkillar on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:35 pm

Federer manages to snag the first set.

Kohli would like that return off the second serve back again!

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:04 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Anyone watching Fed-Kholi?

What a treat to see Federer flashing around the court like a cat.
And what a contrast to that slugging torture at RG.

It's all on display: soft hands, incredible footwork and movement, all the variety....
Just beautiful!
I did watch the last set.

But Fed was not happy. That was a close match. I think it was slippery and it seemed Fed was worried to injure himself.

He did well to get through. Kholi was playing with more power again.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:10 pm

Fed has had many close calls in Halle's first round. I remember him being MPs down a couple of times in first round, one was even 40/0 but each time he went on to win the tournament.

Kholi played well....but Federer felt very hesitant.

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Post by summerblues on Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:25 pm

It was quite slippery. Fed slipped a couple of times and that is quite unusual for him. Kohli also slipped a few times.

But even outside of that, Fed looked so-so. He will need to play much better if he wants decent result at Wimbledon. It was pretty disappointing seeing him come up second best in FH-vs-FH exchanges.

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Post by summerblues on Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:28 pm

No way should DHBH be banned. DHBH is not the cause but a symptom.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:04 pm

summerblues wrote:No way should DHBH be banned.  DHBH is not the cause but a symptom.

It's actually a cause in itself. No player would look to extend rallies if they were forced to play with a SHBH. It's no coincidence that those who do have a DHBH.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:08 pm

Tenez wrote:
summerblues wrote:No way should DHBH be banned.  DHBH is not the cause but a symptom.

It's actually a cause in itself. No player would  look to extend rallies if they were forced to play with a SHBH. It's no coincidence that those who do have a DHBH.
At least someone understands! Hug

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:13 pm

Tenez wrote:Fed has had many close calls in Halle's first round. I remember him being MPs down a couple of times in first round, one was even 40/0 but each time he went on to win the tournament.

Kholi played well....but Federer felt very hesitant.
I thought Fed was very happy in the first set and played well...Kholi not so well, Fed kind of took to grass straight away.
Then stg  happened in the second set (missed that game) some wrong calls and he got rattled...which should not have affected him, but it did...and on grass everything goes so fast, doesn't it?

So he played worse rather than better as the match progressed.
But the first set was good.
I liked how he saved quite a few BPs with aces or service winners, even with 2nd serves... like in the old times...

What saddened me was to see him be so vulnerable and shaky with confidence allowing it to affect his play.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:17 pm

I think the court was really slippery and he was not confident moving. It's on this court that he injured himself twice and compromised his chances at Wimbledon. So I think he was cautious.

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Post by summerblues on Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:19 am

Tenez wrote:
summerblues wrote:No way should DHBH be banned.  DHBH is not the cause but a symptom.

It's actually a cause in itself. No player would  look to extend rallies if they were forced to play with a SHBH. It's no coincidence that those who do have a DHBH.
Of course those who rally use DHBH - because that one is better for rallying. But if you banned DHBH you would be surprised how many SHBHs would be rallying too. The main problem is that rallying has become more advantageous - DHBH is just a consequence, not the other way around.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:31 am

summerblues wrote:
Tenez wrote:
summerblues wrote:No way should DHBH be banned.  DHBH is not the cause but a symptom.

It's actually a cause in itself. No player would  look to extend rallies if they were forced to play with a SHBH. It's no coincidence that those who do have a DHBH.
Of course those who rally use DHBH - because that one is better for rallying.  But if you banned DHBH you would be surprised how many SHBHs would be rallying too.  The main problem is that rallying has become more advantageous - DHBH is just a consequence, not the other way around.

I think you would be surprised how few if any would be.

Name a single SHBH retriever slam champion.

Borg, Wilander, Chang, Bruguera, Hewitt, Nadal, Djoko and Murray were all happy to rally.

Muster might be the exception. And even him was more known for trying to dictate than retrieve.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:52 am

I would love to know what commentators were saying first time they saw DBH in a match.
Were they told to ignore it, were they allowed to be honest, were they at all aware of the potential consequences (probably not at the time...),  or did they just see it as a new fashion statement in a way, "lovely practical acrylic material that washes and irons so much better than cotton"...70s were quite odd historically anyway.

Some may have even viewed it as "progress" Yikes

It must have at least looked weird.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:03 am

We have some good matches today. At 11.30

Stan-Kyrg
Cilic-Mannarino
Kokki-Chardy
Nadal-Dolgo
Murray playing, too.

In Halle at 11:

Thiem-Nishikori (neither play well on grass for some reason)
Rosol-Monfils
Cuevas-JJ

Such a shame Kholi was drawn to play Fed in round one...no draw privileges  for local players there...

And isn't it interesting Nadal chose the 40% tax bracket Queens over Halle this year...

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Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:14 am

I am not in theory against a DHBH....the disadvantage it had back then on faster surface was the reach and then the time it took to swing to generate power.  The only thing you coudl do to compensate the loss of time was taking the ball early (shortening the swing a la Agassi)...but nowadays on those slow conds and extra fit atheletes, it's become ridiculously advantageous.

So in that respect SB is kind of right to say it is the symptom and not the cause. But on the other side, without a DHBH, there is no point trying to outlast someone who is more talented than you, cause if they choose to go BH to BH, the more talented will win. Hence why Federer virtually never loses to a SHBHer.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:23 am

Still, why did they have to start using it in the first place, game was polluted straight away, visually if nothing else...

For me it's simply wrong, inherently wrong.

I got used to DBH, but the game is soulless with it now.

Fognini, Dolgo, Paire all make it look bearable.
It's a different sport with two hands and it really should be played as a different category, like doubles tennis as opposed to singles, but of course it's not going to happen.

What petrifies me is that soon SBH will become extinct.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:38 am

Tenez wrote:
summerblues wrote:
Tenez wrote:
summerblues wrote:No way should DHBH be banned.  DHBH is not the cause but a symptom.

It's actually a cause in itself. No player would  look to extend rallies if they were forced to play with a SHBH. It's no coincidence that those who do have a DHBH.
Of course those who rally use DHBH - because that one is better for rallying.  But if you banned DHBH you would be surprised how many SHBHs would be rallying too.  The main problem is that rallying has become more advantageous - DHBH is just a consequence, not the other way around.

I think you would be surprised how few if any would be.

Name a single SHBH retriever slam champion.

Borg, Wilander, Chang, Bruguera, Hewitt,  Nadal, Djoko and Murray were all happy to rally.

Muster might be the exception. And even him was more known for trying to dictate than retrieve.

Good points Tenez. Its almost impossible to keep rallying with the SHBH, the arm just will tire-out and there is just no choice but to go for a risky make-or-break shot..

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:51 am

Thiem really is a baby Stan: strong, aggressive, robust, he could survive in these conditions, whereas Dimi with all his hands and variety lacks power and is forced to play a DBH game.

But like Nole, nothing stopping him from taking his FH early.

I suppose grass is the least forgiving surface for a DBH, that's where players look most unnatural with it.
Even Nishi with all his superquick hands and feet looks artificial.
But if he was raised in an earlier era, he would've learnt to play a much nicer game.

That's why watching Fed-Khili was a treat yesterday.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:10 pm

There are actually many good players around now, just that conditions are strangling them.

Hopefully the road-running era won't last much longer.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:26 pm

Just checked Thiem Stan H2H, 1:2, all close matches.

I find Thiem more promising than Stan, he's only 22.

He has improved since last year, nice, exciting game in the making, a bit looser and more relaxed than before.

He needs to improve serve asap! that will allow him to dictate play more.

Maybe SBH won't die after all! smiley

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Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:06 pm

noleisthebest wrote:There are actually many good players around now, just that conditions are strangling them.

Hopefully the road-running era won't last much longer.
Yep. There will always be some and we need them. We just don't want them to be deadly consistent thanks to poor pace conditions.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:10 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Just checked Thiem Stan H2H, 1:2, all close matches.

I find Thiem more promising than Stan, he's only 22.

He has improved since last year, nice, exciting game in the making, a bit looser and more relaxed than before.

He needs to improve serve asap! that will allow him to dictate play more.

Maybe SBH won't die after all! smiley

He stands a bit too far back. But on the other hand when you receive a bullet on your BH by Nishi, it's very difficult for a SHBH to bring it back, and then bring it back with a purpose....more so even on those faster courts. This is how Agassi made a lot of damage in the 90s.

So even on faster surface, SHBH won't have it too easy.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:16 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Just checked Thiem Stan H2H, 1:2, all close matches.
I find Thiem more promising than Stan, he's only 22.
He has improved since last year, nice, exciting game in the making, a bit looser and more relaxed than before.
He needs to improve serve asap! that will allow him to dictate play more.
Maybe SBH won't die after all! smiley
He stands a bit too far back. But on the other hand when you receive a bullet on your BH by Nishi, it's very difficult for a SHBH to bring it back, and then bring it back with a purpose....more so even on those faster courts. This is how Agassi made a lot of damage in the 90s.
So even on faster surface, SHBH won't have it too easy.

Yes, that sums it up perfectly.
Still, it was a very close match.
Thiem has come a long way on grass since last year. Much smoother now, yet still a bit stiff.

Needs to make his swings a bit more economical, esp FH and esp on grass. But modern SBH-ers like Stan and him  just have to rely in those big swings for power...that's why clay and slower HC suits them better.

He should hang around Fed a bit more.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:20 pm

FEDERER: ....Mind you, today I may have slipped as much as I probably will throughout the entire grass court season. It takes you by surprise. You hope nobody injures themselves. And it nags at you’re confidence a little bit while trying to play good tennis. >You suddenly think footwork rather than ball. But it was the same for Philipp and nothing in the line of injuries happened. So for sure it’s going to get only better as the week progresses.
=================
That's what I thought.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:29 pm

Tennistv just showed a bit of Fed-Kholi, including the first slip at 4:2 Fed.
It is always shocking to see him on the ground!

Up to then I was savouring his footwork, it was superb. It's a real beauty in its own right.
Why is grass slippery so much this year?

Is it humidity?

They'd better delay start then...like in Wimbledon.
Play begins at 1 PM on show courts, obviously to protect star players.

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ATP 500: Queens, Halle Empty Re: ATP 500: Queens, Halle

Post by luvsports! on Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:50 pm

Dolgo had a chance for a double break!
Making Rafa look v limited.

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Post by summerblues on Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:00 pm

Tenez wrote:Name a single SHBH retriever slam champion.

Borg, Wilander, Chang, Bruguera, Hewitt,  Nadal, Djoko and Murray were all happy to rally.
Of course the players who want to retrieve are using DHBH - DHBH is far better for retrieving. But the conditions that made retrieving a viable option are there regardless and by banning DHBH one would only get rid of some of the most extreme manifestations but not of the problematic conditions.

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Post by summerblues on Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:04 pm

Tenez wrote:the disadvantage it had back then on faster surface was the reach and then the time it took to swing to generate power......

........but nowadays on those slow conds and extra fit atheletes, it's become ridiculously advantageous.
Exactly, the real problem is the conditions that made DHBH so potent, not the shot itself. At the end of the day, as much as I like Stan and his BH, his game is to some extent also product of the new conditions. He has power but he does not have the same level of variety that would have been needed in the old days.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:07 pm

I actually that clay can be very entertaining as it can allow for good battles ..if it was not for Nadal's extreme retrieving skills. I am virtually 100% certain that Nadal woudl not have won a single FO with a SHBH....as good at retrieving as he is.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:08 pm

Does Nadal want to go far at Queens? Or does he wish to rest for the big one? A set down, he does not look too concerned.

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