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Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 3:54 pm

Aut0Gr4ph wrote:If Djoko's success is so dependent on fitness, how do you explain his particularly dominant best of 3 record over the last few years?
Cause fitness in tennis is not about running for 5 hours. It's about keeping your accuracy of shots after a 4 or 5 shot rally.

Talent + mental strength is what separates the best from the rest. Without those two ingredients, all the fitness in the world won't make a difference. All top level sport has a physical component and tennis is no different, but it is, in my opinion, still predominantly a game of incredible skill. Sure, the sport has become more physical over the last few years, but, for me, the physicality is the icing on the cake. You have to first be able to go toe-to-toe with skill and execution before fitness can even come into play.
Not anymore I am afraid. Professionals of the sport have the duty to rely on fitness more than talent which can come and go. This is why neither Murray, Nadal or Djoko have particularly great shots....but over the distance they go down less than the rest, certainly helped my extremely good footwork.

Do you really believe this great sport has become so demeaned by physicality that arguably the greatest talent the game has ever seen can be dominated simply by superior fitness? If someone like Nadal has really found a talent-free way of winning, where are all the Nadal clones that are simply replicating his approach? I'm not for a second saying that fitness isn't important to Nadal's playing style. It clearly is. All I'm saying is that there must be other ingredients too, ingredients that would normally be described as talents.
We have discussed that before. Gasquet is extremely fit too. But that doesn't mean his fitness is up to scratch with the rest of the field.

The proof talent cannot win you anything nowadays is that teh younger talent are miles away from winning slams, whereas before we had plenty of new "talents" winning slams or getting close to it. Nowadays, they are nowhere to be seen past teh 1/4F.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Aut0Gr4ph on Sat May 30, 2015 3:55 pm

Tenez wrote:The draw might turn out to be in Nadal's advantage. Tough Quarter but will be fresh then and if he gets through then unlikely to be stopped thereafter.
Well, let's face it. From your jaundiced perspective, the draw always turns out to be to Nadal's advantage. There might be some shock upsets that clear the way for Nadal, but, as it currently stands, Nadal's QF onwards draw is horrible. Of course, he might end up surprising us, so good to lay the groundwork for a 'Nadal was lucky' narrative, just in case.....

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 3:56 pm

Coric ran out of gas it seems. Born too late! "You are the weakest link! Good bye".

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by legendkillar on Sat May 30, 2015 4:03 pm

Think Courier made a superb point the other day when talking with Santoro saying that mind games which played a big part in the 80's and 90's has gone and that for some of today's generation could benefit from. I tend to agree.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Aut0Gr4ph on Sat May 30, 2015 4:03 pm

Tenez wrote:
Aut0Gr4ph wrote:
Tenez wrote:Djoko is better....but not by much.

Do people think Djoko was better than Kokki at the same age?

Well they're from different tennis generations, so it's hard to compare, but I think it's clear that Djoko was showing more obvious signs of exceptional talent at the same age, a talent that has been borne out by his ATG career record. Do you think it's likely that Kokki will win a maiden slam by age 20 and, if not, is that an admission that Djoko won his first during a weak era!?
As I said, that's not the point. Djoko woudl not be winning a slam with his 20yo tennis now.
But that is exactly my point. Tennis moves on, but talent is timeless. For Djoko to succeed at the age he did, he must either have had above average talent or below average competition. Of course tennis will evolve over time. That doesn't mean that the newer generation automatically has more talent. Do you disagree?

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 4:05 pm

Aut0Gr4ph wrote:
Tenez wrote:The draw might turn out to be in Nadal's advantage. Tough Quarter but will be fresh then and if he gets through then unlikely to be stopped thereafter.
Well, let's face it. From your jaundiced perspective, the draw always turns out to be to Nadal's advantage. There might be some shock upsets that clear the way for Nadal, but, as it currently stands, Nadal's QF onwards draw is horrible. Of course, he might end up surprising us, so good to lay the groundwork for a 'Nadal was lucky' narrative, just in case.....
This is not v2. We go at every player if and when needed. tennis is our main concern and not those little fan wars.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Aut0Gr4ph on Sat May 30, 2015 4:17 pm

Tenez wrote:
Aut0Gr4ph wrote:If Djoko's success is so dependent on fitness, how do you explain his particularly dominant best of 3 record over the last few years?
Cause fitness in tennis is not about running for 5 hours. It's about keeping your accuracy of shots after a 4 or 5 shot rally.

Talent + mental strength is what separates the best from the rest. Without those two ingredients, all the fitness in the world won't make a difference. All top level sport has a physical component and tennis is no different, but it is, in my opinion, still predominantly a game of incredible skill. Sure, the sport has become more physical over the last few years, but, for me, the physicality is the icing on the cake. You have to first be able to go toe-to-toe with skill and execution before fitness can even come into play.
Not anymore I am afraid. Professionals of the sport have the duty to rely on fitness more than talent which can come and go. This is why neither Murray, Nadal or Djoko have particularly great shots....but over the distance they go down less than the rest, certainly helped my extremely good footwork.

Do you really believe this great sport has become so demeaned by physicality that arguably the greatest talent the game has ever seen can be dominated simply by superior fitness? If someone like Nadal has really found a talent-free way of winning, where are all the Nadal clones that are simply replicating his approach? I'm not for a second saying that fitness isn't important to Nadal's playing style. It clearly is. All I'm saying is that there must be other ingredients too, ingredients that would normally be described as talents.
We have discussed that before. Gasquet is extremely fit too. But that doesn't mean his fitness is up to scratch with the rest of the field.

The proof talent cannot win you anything nowadays is that teh younger talent are miles away from winning slams, whereas before we had plenty of new "talents" winning slams or getting close to it. Nowadays, they are nowhere to be seen past teh 1/4F.
Yes, Nadal and Djoko have raised the bar physically, but they wouldn't have been able to do so without the talent to back it up. I think you're right that the increased physicality has made it harder for players to succeed on talent alone. But, as a result the average fitness of the tour has gone up, so everyone's fitter, but it's still predominantly talent (and, of course, mental strength) that separates the best from the rest.

Let's even take 4 and 5 shot rallys out of the equation. Who are two of the best returners on tour? Djoko and Murray. Why? Talent! Do you disagree?

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Aut0Gr4ph on Sat May 30, 2015 4:29 pm

Tenez wrote:
Aut0Gr4ph wrote:
Tenez wrote:The draw might turn out to be in Nadal's advantage. Tough Quarter but will be fresh then and if he gets through then unlikely to be stopped thereafter.
Well, let's face it. From your jaundiced perspective, the draw always turns out to be to Nadal's advantage. There might be some shock upsets that clear the way for Nadal, but, as it currently stands, Nadal's QF onwards draw is horrible. Of course, he might end up surprising us, so good to lay the groundwork for a 'Nadal was lucky' narrative, just in case.....
This is not v2. We go at every player if and when needed. tennis is our main concern and not those little fan wars.
Look, I respect the fact that this forum doesn't have heavy-handed modding like v2, but let's not pretend there's a wide array of views on show here. You're probably writing me off as a wide-eyed Nadal groupie, but I'm definitely not that. I don't dislike Nadal, but he's far from my favourite player. I'm challenging your views because I genuinely disagree with them. Vive la difference!

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 4:30 pm

Aut0Gr4ph wrote:Let's even take 4 and 5 shot rallys out of the equation. Who are two of the best returners on tour? Djoko and Murray. Why? Talent! Do you disagree?
Returning requires amazing mouvement nowadays. Djoko returns well for the same reasons he is deadly in rallies while outstretched. By being able to get to balls and sends them back while being stretched horizontally parallel to the ground. Try to do that an then you tell me it's nothing to do with fitness!

As Agassi was saying returning is about exoceting yourself right and left. Djoko is so fit that he has even the time to swing his whole body and the racquet in teh process.

Now watch him volley and show me talent!

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 4:33 pm

Aut0Gr4ph wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Aut0Gr4ph wrote:
Tenez wrote:The draw might turn out to be in Nadal's advantage. Tough Quarter but will be fresh then and if he gets through then unlikely to be stopped thereafter.
Well, let's face it. From your jaundiced perspective, the draw always turns out to be to Nadal's advantage. There might be some shock upsets that clear the way for Nadal, but, as it currently stands, Nadal's QF onwards draw is horrible. Of course, he might end up surprising us, so good to lay the groundwork for a 'Nadal was lucky' narrative, just in case.....
This is not v2. We go at every player if and when needed. tennis is our main concern and not those little fan wars.
Look, I respect the fact that this forum doesn't have heavy-handed modding like v2, but let's not pretend there's a wide array of views on show here. You're probably writing me off as a wide-eyed Nadal groupie, but I'm definitely not that. I don't dislike Nadal, but he's far from my favourite player. I'm challenging your views because I genuinely disagree with them. Vive la difference!
Ther is not a wide array of views just because we don't have too. But never did we kick anyone out because he was too much of a fan of X or Y. In fact the most prolific poster here is a Djoko fan while most of us here aren't.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 4:38 pm

btw who are/were you on V2?

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 4:44 pm

Rafa saying his mouvement is very good and he is improving match after match.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by DECIMA on Sat May 30, 2015 4:48 pm

Tenez wrote:The draw might turn out to be in Nadal's advantage. Tough Quarter but will be fresh then and if he gets through then unlikely to be stopped thereafter.
Yeah, just disgraceful, probably the tennis authorities rigging it again to give Nadal a good draw, more evidence towards the draw rigging theory.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 4:56 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
Tenez wrote:The draw might turn out to be in Nadal's advantage. Tough Quarter but will be fresh then and if he gets through then unlikely to be stopped thereafter.
Yeah, just disgraceful, probably the tennis authorities rigging it again to give Nadal a good draw, more evidence towards the draw rigging theory.
Grow up Rafalito!

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Aut0Gr4ph on Sat May 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Tenez wrote:
Aut0Gr4ph wrote:Let's even take 4 and 5 shot rallys out of the equation. Who are two of the best returners on tour? Djoko and Murray. Why? Talent! Do you disagree?
Returning requires amazing mouvement nowadays. Djoko returns well for the same reasons he is deadly in rallies while outstretched. By being able to get to balls and sends them back while being stretched horizontally parallel to the ground. Try to do that an then you tell me it's nothing to do with fitness!

As Agassi was saying returning is about exoceting yourself right and left. Djoko is so fit that he has even the time to swing his whole body and the racquet in teh process.

Now watch him volley and show me talent!
Eh? Really not following now. Isn't all sport essentially movement (or preparation for movement). The reason I put tennis in a high skill category is that all the 'movements' require excellent coordination. Good footwork still counts as skilled movement in my book. Isn't that one of the things that sets Roger apart? The way he glides round the court. You're being very tenacious on this one, but I think it's stretching credibility to suggest a good return game is primarily linked to fitness.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Aut0Gr4ph on Sat May 30, 2015 5:39 pm

Tenez wrote:btw who are/were you on V2?
Same user on v2. I haven't been posting for long.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 5:51 pm

Aut0Gr4ph wrote:Eh? Really not following now. Isn't all sport essentially movement (or preparation for movement). The reason I put tennis in a high skill category is that all the 'movements' require excellent coordination. Good footwork still counts as skilled movement in my book. Isn't that one of the things that sets Roger apart? The way he glides round the court.
Eh..no... Fed's footwork is excellent but that's certainly not what sets him apart. It's his hands that sets him apart. Djoko is on every ball with time to spare. And certainly his mouvement is what sets him apart, despite actually a relatively poor footwork. Now you might say this is "talent", unfortunately nowadays, there many ways to get extremely fit with fast mouvement without being particularly talented to start with.

You're being very tenacious on this one, but I think it's stretching credibility to suggest a good return game is primarily linked to fitness.
I am discussing it as I see it. I don't Djoko more than Nadal or Federer. I pick my players according to what I see and therefore it's very easy to defend what I see.

Ferrer beats Djoko on most returning stats by the way. Is Ferrer known for his talent?

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by paulcz on Sat May 30, 2015 6:05 pm

Tenez wrote:
Aut0Gr4ph wrote:Let's even take 4 and 5 shot rallys out of the equation. Who are two of the best returners on tour? Djoko and Murray. Why? Talent! Do you disagree?
Returning requires amazing mouvement nowadays. Djoko returns well for the same reasons he is deadly in rallies while outstretched. By being able to get to balls and sends them back while being stretched horizontally parallel to the ground. Try to do that an then you tell me it's nothing to do with fitness!

As Agassi was saying returning is about exoceting yourself right and left. Djoko is so fit that he has even the time to swing his whole body and the racquet in teh process.

Now watch him volley and show me talent!

Ten, you mix up always words as movement and fitness in all discussions about the game and it is quite misleading. I think that fitness should be mentioned when it relates to players stamina and power. Movement is a complex activity which comes from legs as it is called footwork. But great returning requires fast players whole body reaction and basically needs  a great reflex and then a great body coordination in particular.

That  coordination is a complex body ability to react well at very precise time on the ball. There is no need of stretching legs or sliding on feet. Returning is not a racket science and movement and fitness play insignificant role in it. Nole has a great body coordination  / talent in his body for fast coordination on return. That is the fact.

Volleying is a more complex activity, which requires a perfect approaching shots and more power in the body when playing in less comfortable  body position. Nole started learning it later, but I can see his progress as great even if he is not build up as a net player.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 6:30 pm

Paul - I actually don;t mix up words at all. Mouvement is not footwork only. You can see I make the difference between them. Mouvement is a general term which regroup many words but I perfectly make the difference between stamina, footwork, and velocity/speed and eye/hand coord.

You are actually the one mixing things here. At this level, returning is very much a mouvement (power on the legs and abs essentially) ...unless like Fed you stand very close and throw your racquet , right and left. Though even him requires mouvement and this is why he lost Wimbledon 2010 when his back went after leading 2 sets to 0 versus Tsonga and thereafter coudl not return Tsonga.

With 2 hands on teh BH, returning is much less a eye/hand coord skill. one or 2 step back and it becomes much easier to return if you have the power in the legs.

Djoko has very powerful legs carrying a rather thin torso but very muscly body with 0 fat.

When he started, he was asthmatic, short sighted, and could not finish a few matches. So when it comes to natural talent and natural eye/hand coord I am a bit sceptical!

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by gallery play on Sat May 30, 2015 6:34 pm

Tenez wrote:
This is not v2. We go at every player if and when needed. tennis is our main concern and not those little fan wars.
Hear hear!!

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by gallery play on Sat May 30, 2015 6:43 pm

Has anyone seen Cilic play? He has yet to lose a set...Can he beat Ferrer? I wouldn't mind

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 6:52 pm

Nope...he went through the radar.....Would be good indeed if he could finally get close to his USO form.....unbelivable to think he is a slam winner now.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Aut0Gr4ph on Sat May 30, 2015 6:55 pm

Tenez wrote:
Aut0Gr4ph wrote:Eh? Really not following now. Isn't all sport essentially movement (or preparation for movement). The reason I put tennis in a high skill category is that all the 'movements' require excellent coordination. Good footwork still counts as skilled movement in my book. Isn't that one of the things that sets Roger apart? The way he glides round the court.
Eh..no... Fed's footwork is excellent but that's certainly not what sets him apart. It's his hands that sets him apart. Djoko is on every ball with time to spare. And certainly his mouvement is what sets him apart, despite actually a relatively poor footwork. Now you might say this is "talent", unfortunately nowadays, there many ways to get extremely fit with fast mouvement without being particularly talented to start with.

You're being very tenacious on this one, but I think it's stretching credibility to suggest a good return game is primarily linked to fitness.
I am discussing it as I see it. I don't Djoko more than Nadal or Federer. I pick my players according to what I see and therefore it's very easy to defend what I see.

Ferrer beats Djoko on most returning stats by the way. Is Ferrer known for his talent?
So does that mean you are only rating hands skills when assessing a player's talent? If so, I think that's almost an admission of defeat. Nothing wrong with favouring hand skills when deciding who your favourite player is, but to discount any other skills as irrelevant to tennis talent seems ludicrous to me.

I know you like to bang on about the road runners of the modern game and if, by that, you mean the ability to move quickly from side to side and maintain this movement over a long match, then I'd agree with you that this shouldn't rank particularly high up on the list of tennis talents (although it is, clearly, important in current conditions). However, if we're talking about the ability to react in a split second to a thunderbolt serve and adjust your position to be ready to strike, then that, for me, has everything to do with tennis talent.

Re your Ferrer point, in my opinion, he is an underrated talent. I think people fall into the classic trap of assuming that because he has no major weapons and plays a more naturally defensive style, he must be lacking in the talent department. It's quite the opposite for me. He doesn't have the reach of many players and he's not even the quickest, so the fact he returns so well is testament to his talent. His ability to pick up the ball and react to it must be way above average.

To be honest, your definition of talent appears so narrow that it seems almost completely pointless to debate with you on this subject. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Aut0Gr4ph on Sat May 30, 2015 7:10 pm

paulcz wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Aut0Gr4ph wrote:Let's even take 4 and 5 shot rallys out of the equation. Who are two of the best returners on tour? Djoko and Murray. Why? Talent! Do you disagree?
Returning requires amazing mouvement nowadays. Djoko returns well for the same reasons he is deadly in rallies while outstretched. By being able to get to balls and sends them back while being stretched horizontally parallel to the ground. Try to do that an then you tell me it's nothing to do with fitness!

As Agassi was saying returning is about exoceting yourself right and left. Djoko is so fit that he has even the time to swing his whole body and the racquet in teh process.

Now watch him volley and show me talent!

Ten, you mix up always words as movement and fitness in all discussions about the game and it is quite misleading. I think that fitness should be mentioned when it relates to players stamina and power. Movement is a complex activity which comes from legs as it is called footwork. But great returning requires fast players whole body reaction and basically needs  a great reflex and then a great body coordination in particular.

That  coordination is a complex body ability to react well at very precise time on the ball. There is no need of stretching legs or sliding on feet. Returning is not a racket science and movement and fitness play insignificant role in it. Nole has a great body coordination  / talent in his body for fast coordination on return. That is the fact.

Volleying is a more complex activity, which requires a perfect approaching shots and more power in the body when playing in less comfortable  body position. Nole started learning it later, but I can see his progress as great even if he is not build up as a net player.
Great post Paul. That's pretty much what I was trying to get at, but you put it much better than I could ever have.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sat May 30, 2015 7:15 pm

Aut0Gr4ph wrote:So does that mean you are only rating hands skills when assessing a player's talent? If so, I think that's almost an admission of defeat. Nothing wrong with favouring hand skills when deciding who your favourite player is, but to discount any other skills as irrelevant to tennis talent seems ludicrous to me.
It is not as simple as that. Today's technology and rather slow court conds certainly favour mouvement. And in that respect it is a "defeat" cause talent has become useless...or a very comparative value which shows only between the fittest of all. This is why since the arrival of nadal, slams have essentially been won by the fittest when Federer did not win. In particular since 2010, it's all about fitness bar those 2 windows with Federer and Stan. And even Stan managed to win cause according to Nadal, he was not himself "fit". You may deny that, but the proof is in the pudding that fitness is everything nowadays. And that fitness has a huge impact on the mental strength. It is no coincidence that federer beat Djoko in Dubai in 2 but lost in 2 in slow IW a couple of weeks later.
So this fitness is for me very suspicious, like all exceptional fitness in sport nowadays. I have enough evidence out there to justify my suspicions. Only a fan (or a fool) can overlook that aspect in sport nowadays.


I know you like to bang on about the road runners of the modern game and if, by that, you mean the ability to move quickly from side to side and maintain this movement over a long match, then I'd agree with you that this shouldn't rank particularly high up on the list of tennis talents (although it is, clearly, important in current conditions). However, if we're talking about the ability to react in a split second to a thunderbolt serve and adjust your position to be ready to strike, then that, for me, has everything to do with tennis talent.
Again, it's very easy to step back and compensate for the loss of pace by moving towards the ball. Helped with 2 hands on the BH, it helps even much more. What is so difficult to understand? Nadal stands in the tribune and by doing so had excellent return stats as well. Give those guys natural gut instead, and you will see how good they are at returning!!!! With nat strings, no choice but stick to the line and block the ball back to hope for a bit of pace.

Re your Ferrer point, in my opinion, he is an underrated talent. I think people fall into the classic trap of assuming that because he has no major weapons and plays a more naturally defensive style, he must be lacking in the talent department. It's quite the opposite for me. He doesn't have the reach of many players and he's not even the quickest, so the fact he returns so well is testament to his talent. His ability to pick up the ball and react to it must be way above average.
Yeah...he has some talent too....like Djoko....like Nadal.....but great talent? compared to really talented players? I call them "crafty"..like Djoko but not talented in relative value.

To be honest, your definition of talent appears so narrow that it seems almost completely pointless to debate with you on this subject. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
So far that eye/hand coord or quick hand seems to be teh only factor that is not affected too much by drugs though I know drugs can also imporve it but at the end of teh day it is easy to see who has talent with a naked eye. Footwork as talent is also quite easy to see as more or less like dancing. whereas mouvement as (pace) has a lot to do with size of your thighs and we know this can be very easily improved.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Aut0Gr4ph on Sat May 30, 2015 7:41 pm

Tenez wrote:
When he started, he was asthmatic, short sighted, and could not finish a few matches. So when it comes to natural talent and natural eye/hand coord I am a bit sceptical!
This last bit really confuses me, as it seems to totally contradict the general thrust of your argument. So Djoko was not a physical beast when he started out and yet still made his mark on the tour from a young age. Where does that leave your Djoko is all about fitness argument? I know you're a very knowledgeable poster on all things tennis, but do think you have a bit of a blind spot on this one.

By the way, I do agree that DHBH is generally an advantage on return, so is a relevant factor when comparing Djoko to Roger, but not particularly significant when assessing Djoko's returning talents versus the rest of the tour.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by paulcz on Sat May 30, 2015 7:43 pm

Tenez wrote:Paul - I actually don;t mix up words at all. Mouvement is not footwork only. You can see I make the difference between them. Mouvement is a general term which regroup many words but I perfectly make the difference between stamina, footwork, and velocity/speed and eye/hand coord.  

You are actually the one mixing things here. At this level, returning is very much a mouvement (power on the legs and abs essentially) ...unless like Fed you stand very close and throw your racquet , right and left. Though even him requires mouvement and this is why he lost Wimbledon 2010 when his back went after leading 2 sets to 0 versus  Tsonga and thereafter coudl not return Tsonga.

With 2 hands on teh BH, returning is much less a eye/hand coord skill. one or 2 step back and it becomes much easier to return if you have the power in the legs.

Djoko has very powerful legs carrying a rather thin torso but very muscly body with 0 fat.

When he started, he was asthmatic, short sighted, and could not finish a few matches. So when it comes to natural talent and natural eye/hand coord I am a bit sceptical!
Ten, be positive about Nole's  eye / hand - body coordination and believe that Nole has an exceptional body coordination and it is not only my idea.

Returning is one of the shots on the court when you use your legs just in very limited area, just for two steps and therefore the most significat role plays fast  body coordination and great reaction. Of course you need legs power and abs, but movement on the court on return is minimal and the difference between Nole and Fed returning positions is marginal.

On this top level every player must have powerful legs and abs, but Nole's returning is due to his body coordination one of the best currently or even the best ever with Agassi.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by ... on Sat May 30, 2015 9:12 pm

Nole is not a born tennis player like McEnroe was.

In fact, not many are in the top 20.

Tennis talent is all to do with hand to eye coordination which results in the consistency of hitting the ball with the sweetspot. Those balls are fast. Shoulders are loose, and the whole body is commited to the shot.
Fed's FH is a testament to it.

Exceptionally talented players make ball-striking look effortless.

That is much easier to establish when watching players live and close up, as the sound of strings is very quiet when the ball is struck like that.

Serve is a good indicator of how talented a player is.

With modern strings technology, diet, use of DBH, fitness coaches, slow playing conditions and all the rest, the role of talent is marginalised.

Modern racquets allow many players to look good these days.
In Nole's case his court coverage (movement) helps a lot.
I also see footwork as a different category and find that Federer's and Nadal's are the best and most natural.

I haven't seen enough to be sure, but I think Coric has very good footwork, too.

Then there are "hands";  Murray for example has good hands but average hand to eye coordination (compared to Fed and Nishi for example).
"Hands" are the ability to feel/tame the ball and react to it well, very useful in volleying, and in Murray's case - retrieving.

Talent is always expressed in creativity: Federer, Fognini, Mannarino...

Unfortunately, conditions in this year's RG have been the worst I've ever seen anywhere, almost completely eradicating the role of talent, the only thing that will make that ball fly fast is hitting is superhard - and that is physically very, very exhausting.

A SBH-er will tire his arm having to spend a lot of energy on FHs, and as a result, serve will fade away as the match goes on.

In short: perfect conditions for Nadal.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by ... on Sat May 30, 2015 10:56 pm

Related to discussion, a statement from a promising young Croatian player, Ana  Konjuh:

"Tennis itself is becoming the least impirtant thing in tennis - fitness is the main thing, how well you are prepared, how long you can last; 10 years ago , different tennis was played compared to today's.

Mental approach is very important, you must have a good "head"'- look at top 10, nobody is "crazy", everyone's thinking "tennis, tennis and only tennis".

You need to be calm and know exactly what you want to do, then work hard to achieve it."

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by luvsports! on Sun May 31, 2015 1:42 am

Great find nitb.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sun May 31, 2015 12:04 pm

paulcz wrote:Ten, be positive about Nole's eye / hand - body coordination and believe that Nole has an exceptional body coordination and it is not only my idea.
I have given Nole as much credit as I could. I feel I owe him quite a bit for stopping Nadal in his track in 2011. Without Nole, Nadal would most likely be at 17 slams like Fed today....Though it is fair to say that had Fed not stopped Djoko in all the 2008-11 slams, Nadal would have struggled to make his 14 slams.
Having said that, he beat Nadal with Nadal's sword. Outlasting him thanks to a bit more talent, allowing him to run with Nadal but making him run just a bit more.

Returning is one of the shots on the court when you use your legs just in very limited area, just for two steps and therefore the most significat role plays fast body coordination and great reaction. Of course you need legs power and abs, but movement on the court on return is minimal and the difference between Nole and Fed returning positions is marginal.
I cannot agree with that. Legs are essential for returning. In fact Legs and abdominal belt is crucial. Watch clips or returning….and you will see how swiftly he gets in position. It’s the very reason why Nadal is good at volleying. Cause he manoeuvres his tennis racquet like you and I manoeuvres a pingpong bat. Swiftly and a bigger sweetspot.
People underestimate the power of “power/muscle” in eye/hand coord sport. In the past the better volleyers or shot makers were those who could anticipate better, read the game earlier. Muscle power has allowed to catch up on those.
Pulling a drop shot with a normal arm is not the same than doing it with a big arm. Much easier.

On this top level every player must have powerful legs and abs
Yes and they all have. . ….however between losing and winning it is all about fractions! Look at a 100m final. They all can extract themselves easily from the starting blocks, however the winner still does it quicker than the rest. Those who can move better quicker are those who win!

It is so obvious that Djoko’s strength is his movement, I am surprised we have to discuss it here.

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Re: Roland Garros 2015: Daily Prediction game Day 7 Saturday 30 - May

Post by Tenez on Sun May 31, 2015 12:20 pm

Good post NITB (9.12pm). Very true.

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