Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Keywords

GOAT  

Latest topics
» One of the best match ever?
Today at 9:06 pm by luvsports!

» Basel 2017
Today at 8:33 pm by Jahu

» The doping program joke of the ITF!!!
Today at 5:31 pm by Jahu

» The Ultimate GOAT List
Today at 2:48 pm by noleisthebest

» Race to London
Today at 10:59 am by Tenez

» Fight for #1
Yesterday at 10:54 pm by naxroy

» Women's (WTA) WTF 2017
Yesterday at 7:43 am by noleisthebest

» Stefanos Tsitsipas
Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:04 pm by noleisthebest

» This Is What A Feminist Looks Like
Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:56 pm by bogbrush

October 2017
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
      1
2345678
9101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
3031     

Calendar Calendar

Affiliates
free forum


Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:55 pm

Let's compare Nadal vs Djokovic Hamburg 2008, and Nadal vs Djokovic French Open 2013
I'll take the five 15+ shot rallies I find, and measure the time it takes from the serve to the 15th shot.

If there's such a huge difference in pace annually, let's see it with a whole 5 year margin

Links:
Hamburg 2008- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMHKG8fh_BQ
French Open 2013- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKM19zYZX24

French Open 2013:
1/ 2:15-2:34 so 19 seconds
2/ 5:06-5:26 so 20 seconds
3/ 5:59-6:17 so 18 seconds
4/ 7:03-7:21 so 18 seconds
5/ 8:18-8:35 so 17 seconds
Average- 18.4 seconds

Hamburg 2008:
1/ 0:42-1:01 so 19 seconds
2/ 2:54-3:12 so 18 seconds
3/ 8:07-8:26 so 19 seconds
4/ 9:56-10:14 so 18 seconds
5/ 14:33-14:51 so 18 seconds
Average- 18.4 seconds

All the rallies until the 15th shot were between 17 to 20 seconds, I noticed no speed difference, and you can basically see that in the stats.

So in 5 years, there has basically been no big change in pace.
I made great effort to ensure this comparison is a fair test: I chose the two same players for both matches, and made sure both the matches were on the same surface.
Everyone can check the rallies I timed with the links I provided, or even watch the whole highlights to get a feel for the match.

I hope Tenez, this puts your theory to rest, and perhaps you give it up for good...

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:18 pm

And this is for Djokovic vs Murray, with a 4 year gap:


Kim Jong-Un wrote:
I'll take the first 3 15+ shot rallies I find, and measure the time it takes from the serve to the 15th shot.

Highlights I'll use:
Djokovic Murray 2011 Aus Open: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAMJ8vsvLUk
Djokovic Murray 2015 Miami:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Noudv3vM5ZQ (Set 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueHdBwolSG0 (Set 1 TB)

Miami 2015 15+ shot rallies:
1/ 0:37-0:55 so 18 seconds
2/ 4:01-4:19 so 18 seconds
3/ 0:00-0:18 so 18 seconds again... (this one is from the TB btw)

Aus Open 2011 15+ shot rallies:
1/ 0:53-1:12 so 19 seconds
2/ 1:44-2:02 so 18 seconds
3/ 3:01-3:19 so 18 seconds again...

OK so this shows that they were all basically the same pace. I've provided the links and exact timings, so you can double check all of these.
There was basically no difference at all, and even if you nit-pick at the fact one of the AO 2011 was 19 seconds, that one had a few slices which took the pace off, if not for that it probably would have been 18 seconds as well.

There just hasn't been such a big chance in the pace of play as you falsely think. Djokovic in early 2011 was playing with huge confidence, and now he's still playing well in early 2015- except a bit edgy with lapses of focus from time to time.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:03 pm

Tenez, on the other thread, you said you had some criticism of the data ?
I double checked the one you saw (AO 2011 from 0:53), and it was absolutely right.
I stopped counting as soon as the 15th shot is hit, if you count more than that then the analysis becomes unfair (as one rally could be 17 shots, and the other could be 30... and the 30 shot rally may slow down as players get tired after 20 shots or so).
It's fair to have a single cut-off point.

I am also aware that my Miami videos were taken down, which is annoying, I guess it's due to copyright.
Perhaps we can stick with the Nadal vs Djokovic comparison, or if you want find another highlights clip of the Miami final too.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:01 am

OK now let me compare two with a 7 year gap !

Tenez, reading what you said on the other thread, it seems you did not read what I said carefully at all. I stop counting at the 15th shot, for reasons explained in the above post.
I will record 3 from each

Nadal vs Djokovic 2007 compared to Nadal vs Djokovic Miami 2014

Links:
Nadal Djokovic IW/Miami 2007- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrkfBRKJZcE
Nadal Djokovic Miami 2014- http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x286t79_miami-2014-final-novak-djokovic-vs-rafael-nadal-highlights-hd_sport

Miami 2014:
1/ 0:38-0:57 so 19 seconds
2/ 1:55-2:14 so 19 seconds
3/ 5:21-5:39 so 18 seconds

2007 IW/Miami fixtures
1/ 0:08-0:27 so 19 seconds
2/ 1:58-2:17 so 19 seconds
3/ 4:23-4:41 so 18 seconds


OK, this will be the last set I do, because I have proven my point. Here we have a 7 year gap, and there is no difference in speed whatsoever.
All the ones I have used is with flat hitting, I did not use any where there was excessive slicing, drop-shots, volleys etc. as this makes the comparison unfair.
Edit: Actually checking again, the second 2014 Miami has its 15th shot at 2:14, not 2:13. This means that one is 19 seconds too, so overall NO difference at all in the 3 compared.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:17 am

Kimmy,
sorry, but you have proven nothing. All that typing...one big waste of time.

As I said earlier, until you are able to see the difference in ball-striking, you don't know what you are talking about.

There is no shame in not knowing something...but it's silly to pretend to know something when you don't.

noleisthebest

Posts : 24967
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:38 am

noleisthebest wrote:
There is no shame in not knowing something...but it's silly to pretend to know something when you don't.


Unfortunately not being able to defend your opinion, posting vague clichés, making absolutely nonsensical statements such as 'Djokovic 2015 would double bagel Djokovic 2011', repeating what Tenez says from time to time, and then being really arrogant about your supposed understanding of 'ball striking' does not constitute tennis knowledge NITB.

That reminds me, this was your comment on the Miami thread, comparing Miami 2015 to AO 2011:
noleisthebest wrote:You can see tennis there looks slo-motion compared to today's.
The contrast is striking.

You said the tennis was 'slo-mo', yet I've checked the speeds and there is basically no difference. So you judged something of the same speed as 'slo-mo', correct ?

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:35 pm

Tenez wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:
Btw Tenez, there is a thread where I measured some timings and showed no change in pace between 2007 and 2015 basically, perhaps you haven't seen it or maybe you ignore evidence that doesn't fit your pre-held theories.
I have already discussed that with you. You are working it wrong. I said to take 15 +shots rallies cause 15is too short to make up for one or 2 sec precision loss due to the fact we are only accounting to the second. Therefore you need to account a mimimum of 15 length but account for 18, 20 will gove you more precision. And if you do that you will see that 2015 is faster than 2009 or 2010 at the AO. 2007 is the wrong year cause I agree that at the USO for instance it was pretty fast and top players then where usually shot makers (Blake, Gonzo, Nalby), hence used to play pace as opposed to lungbusting rallies.

So you have to compare what is comparable.

Don;t do like Nadal, cheat at every opportunity.
Cheat at every opportunity ?

Tenez, I have used the same players in my comparisons (who you claim have improved so much in 8 years).
And I specifically went out of my way to choose court speeds of the similar speed: Hamburg 2008 clay vs French Open 2013 clay, AO 2011 vs Miami 2015; I've chosen the same surfaces.

So I have compared what is comparable, it's pathetic you say I 'cheat' when I've gone out of my way to make sure the players are the same and the courts are similar.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:38 pm

As for going to more than 15 shots in a rally, I chose 15 to make sure that the number of shots in a rally were consistent for both... obviously the calculation is unfair if you are measuring a 30 shot rally on the one hand and a 18 shot on the other, as the 30 shot rally could slow down.
If you want you can choose a number greater than 15 (20?), and you still aren't going to see a difference.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:11 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:As for going to more than 15 shots in a rally, I chose 15 to make sure that the number of shots in a rally were consistent for both... obviously the calculation is unfair if you are measuring a 30 shot rally on the one hand and a 18 shot on the other, as the 30 shot rally could slow down.
If you want you can choose a number greater than 15 (20?), and you still aren't going to see a difference.
I have no time now to work it out.

But you cannot take 15shots only as I explained that you may have as much as 2sec inaccuracy by using Youtube..which will not reflect enough precision.

Taking 18 or 20 shots is perfectly fair as you take those for both matches and divide by the number of ball crossing the net.

Nothing that difficult....do it....and if you are honest you will find th esame results I found. AO 2015 played faster than AO 2010 with the same players. More so if you do USO Djoko Murray 2014 v Djoko Murray 2012.

Be honest for once!


Tenez

Posts : 17175
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:14 pm

Tenez wrote:
Be honest for once!

How could I have been more honest, I laid out the methodology, and literally showed the links with the exact timings; so anyone could double check.
I also chose the same players, with similar surfaces. Your claims of dishonesty don't make any sense when I've been so transparent.

Tenez wrote:Taking 18 or 20 shots is perfectly fair as you take those for both matches and divide by the number of ball crossing the net. Nothing that difficult....do it....and if you are honest you will find th esame results I found.
Why don't you show the evidence as I have done then ?
I did it for 15 shots, which is the barometer I thought you were using, if that's not enough then do it for 18 shots and show me ?
I've even provided you with the links, and the timings of the long rallies !

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:15 pm

The problem you have with my evidence is not that I've not been honest/transparent enough (I clearly have); but that it makes a big hole in the conclusion of yours which you reached earlier than you kept going on about.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:24 pm

Stop repeating things in loop. It won;t make you more credible. I have already shown some evidence in the past.

You can't "lay out the methodology" based on what I advise, while twisting what I advise.

Discussing with you is becoming a pain.

I have already shown with links and data how AO 09 Verdy v Nadal was played slower than same players in Miami 15...are you denying that as well?

Tenez

Posts : 17175
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:26 pm

Tenez wrote:
I have already shown with links and data how AO 09 Verdy v Nadal was played slower than same players in Miami 15...are you denying that as well?
Can you repost those statistics here, as I cannot remember them.

You can't "lay out the methodology" based on what I advise, while twisting what I advise.
My methodology is consistent, so I pick a equal number of shots in a rally. If you use rallies over varying amounts of shots, then that influences the result (as I guess rallies may slow down as it goes on), so it becomes an unfair comparison.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:37 pm

Posted during Miami....


I used the so called "amazing 2009 AO TB" LS is referring to above and compared it with yesterday's match between Nadal and Verdasco :

To work out pace I had to use the 2 long rallies we have in that TB (plus another long rally of that match in another clip to consolidate the numbers as 2 rallies are not enough. In fact the other long rally I chose was faster than in that TB) and compared it with long rallies of yesterday match.

First the first conclusion is that it is harder to find long rallies (14 shots plus) in yesterday match. The game is played faster, taking more risk and more importantly, so much faster between points. You can see Nadal taking 56s between the first 2 points of that AO09 TB. Woudl not be tolerated today!

Second taking an average of 3 rallies of 14 + shots the game yesterday was played 12 percent faster. you can check by yourself:

AO09 TB
21 30 1.428571429
14 20 1.428571429
20 28 1.4
average 1.419047619


Miami 2015
14 18 1.285714286
10 12.5 1.25
16 20 1.25
average 1.261904762

So playing faster is of course going to produce more UEs, and is simply more difficult to sustain.
Kim, it also shows that though you don;t see the game as being faster now comapred to then...it is! in effect your analog vision is biased!

Tenez

Posts : 17175
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:52 pm

Wait Tenez, can you give links and timings as you have done ?


Last edited by Kim Jong-Un on Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by luvsports! on Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:55 pm

Tenez wrote:Posted during Miami....


I used the so called "amazing 2009 AO TB" LS is referring to above and compared it with yesterday's match between  Nadal and Verdasco :

To work out pace I had to use the 2 long rallies we have in that TB (plus another long rally of that match in another clip to consolidate the numbers as 2 rallies are not enough. In fact the other long rally I chose was faster than in that TB) and compared it with long rallies of yesterday match.

First the first conclusion is that it is harder to find long rallies (14 shots plus) in yesterday match. The game is played faster, taking more risk and more importantly, so much faster between points. You can see Nadal taking 56s between the first 2 points of that AO09 TB. Woudl not be tolerated today!

Second taking an average of 3 rallies of 14 + shots the game yesterday was played 12 percent faster. you can check by yourself:

AO09 TB
21 30 1.428571429
14 20 1.428571429
20 28 1.4
average 1.419047619


Miami 2015
14 18 1.285714286
10 12.5 1.25
16 20 1.25
average 1.261904762

So playing faster is of course going to produce more UEs, and is simply more difficult to sustain.
Kim, it also shows that though you don;t see the game as being faster now comapred to then...it is! in effect your analog vision is biased!
Don't misquote me. I said it was the best tiebreak i've ever seen in terms of a player hitting so many winners and against Nadal of all people.

luvsports!

Posts : 4022
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:08 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVrnOFXof7A

That is what I used for Miami I believe...the problem is that there weren't any long rallies (longest was 16 shots ..most likely due to less time allowed between points so players have to hit the ball harder.

Tenez

Posts : 17175
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:13 pm

Can you give timings ?

Also link for AO TB, are your 3 points for those in order ?

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:38 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Can you give timings ?

Also link for AO TB, are your 3 points for those in order ?

Don't have time....but it shoudl be easy to work it out.

AO09 TB
21 30 1.428571429 means 21 lengths in 30sec.
14 20 1.428571429
20 28 1.4
average 1.419047619


Miami 2015
14 18 1.285714286 this one starts at 39s and ends at 57 when the ball crosses the baseline before Nadal send the ball back. (I don't count the last (15th shot) as the ball doesn't crosses the whole court. So it is 14 lengths in 18sec.
10 12.5 1.25
16 20 1.25
average 1.261904762

Tenez

Posts : 17175
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:40 pm

luvsports! wrote:
Don't misquote me. I said it was the best tiebreak i've ever seen in terms of a player hitting so many winners and against Nadal of all people.
And what's the difference?

Tenez

Posts : 17175
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:41 pm

I need the timings Tenez

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:48 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:I need the timings Tenez

pick yours....we should get to the same results.

Tenez

Posts : 17175
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by luvsports! on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:50 pm

Tenez wrote:
luvsports! wrote:
Don't misquote me. I said it was the best tiebreak i've ever seen in terms of a player hitting so many winners and against Nadal of all people.
And what's the difference?

Best tiebreak has to be great from both players, but in this one verdasco just obliterated Rafa. A great one would be say feds vs rafa 2008 wimby set 4.

luvsports!

Posts : 4022
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:23 am

AO 2009 TB:

1/ 21 lengths for 30 seconds- however I must note that at the end there was quite a slow very angled shot for Verdasco, and then Nadal lobbed it up very slow back into play. It's unfair to count the last 3 shots, as anyone watching can see it's no longer normal rallying. (In the examples I used, I was very careful not to use any rallies where something strange like that happened)
If we don't count the weird last few points: 17 shots for 23 seconds- 1.35 average

2/ I'm sorry, using this rally is a joke. Nadal slices it 3 times even before the 15th shot, and one of them was one of his floaty slow slices.
If I had wanted to, I could have shown 2015 was slower than 2007 or vice versa by picking rallies where there was slicing; but I made sure I didn't.
Slicing always slow down play- careless example to use.

3/ I have no idea which one you chose for this


Miami 2014:

1/ Yep, your calculations are fine here
2/ No, you've made a mistake here in your calculations.
For 10 lengths, it does from 3:08-3:23
That is 15 seconds, not 12.5 seconds as you said. So the average here is 1.5.
3/ This point does not even appear in the highlights you gave. It seems to be the right highlights, because the timings for your first one were correct, but there is no third one of 16 lengths ?

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:31 am

luvsports! wrote:
Tenez wrote:
luvsports! wrote:
Don't misquote me. I said it was the best tiebreak i've ever seen in terms of a player hitting so many winners and against Nadal of all people.
And what's the difference?

Best tiebreak has to be great from both players, but in this one verdasco just obliterated Rafa. A great one would be say feds vs rafa 2008 wimby set 4.

Nole-Dolgo USO 2011 was pretty good .
I know it wasn't Fedal....

noleisthebest

Posts : 24967
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by luvsports! on Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:33 am

That was a goody. It was just that one came to mind because that is the most emotionally invested I think I have ever been in for one.

luvsports!

Posts : 4022
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Tenez on Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:48 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:AO 2009 TB:

1/ 21 lengths for 30 seconds- however I must note that at the end there was quite a slow very angled shot for Verdasco, and then Nadal lobbed it up very slow back into play. It's unfair to count the last 3 shots, as anyone watching can see it's no longer normal rallying. (In the examples I used, I was very careful not to use any rallies where something strange like that happened)
If we don't count the weird last few points: 17 shots for 23 seconds- 1.35 average
You are funny.....

2/ I'm sorry, using this rally is a joke. Nadal slices it 3 times even before the 15th shot, and one of them was one of his floaty slow slices.
If I had wanted to, I could have shown 2015 was slower than 2007 or vice versa by picking rallies where there was slicing; but I made sure I didn't.
Slicing always slow down play- careless example to use.
You are even funnier!

Remember i did not choose the rallies. I was told that Verdy played amazing in AO09 and I just hilighted how the game was simply different there, with simply a 12% slower tempo...and an even more ridiculous dead slower tempo between points! Nowadays points are played more agressively with less time between points. You don;t have as nearly sliced BH from Nadal. He himself is much more aggressive from that side. he has no choice in fact if he doesn;t want to do too much rallying.

As a fan you should have noticed. but you only notice the fact he loses more often nowadays and blame his decline. You are not serious.


Miami 2014:

1/ Yep, your calculations are fine here
2/ No, you've made a mistake here in your calculations.
For 10 lengths, it does from 3:08-3:23
That is 15 seconds, not 12.5 seconds as you said. So the average here is 1.5.
3/ This point does not even appear in the highlights you gave. It seems to be the right highlights, because the timings for your first one were correct, but there is no third one of 16 lengths ?
1.5s per rally...once again you are not serious. My other points were calculated exactly as my first one and that are the results I found out. Find your own,,,

Tenez

Posts : 17175
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Tenez on Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:03 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ailpiAzXqM&spfreload=10

That's the clip I actually used for Miami.

the second point starts at 2.01 and ends at 2.13.I coudl have done 13-1=12sec....but am honest so added an extra half sec for accuracy.

You will find the third point somewhere.

But that the fact is that Miami was played faster....and all my other calculation are simply correct.

Tenez

Posts : 17175
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:11 am

I am genuinely amazed that people can't see the huge difference in tennis between 2009 and 2015, and Nadal-Verdasco matches are a perfect illustration in every way.


noleisthebest

Posts : 24967
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by luvsports! on Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:42 am

I'm not sure if they have but even if it is a lot faster, that doesn't mean comparatively it was a lot better quality.

luvsports!

Posts : 4022
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:43 am

I think you are mixing drama with quality.

noleisthebest

Posts : 24967
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by luvsports! on Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:52 am

So if they hit the ball harder, that makes it better?

luvsports!

Posts : 4022
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Tenez on Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:04 am

luvsports! wrote:So if they hit the ball harder, that makes it better?
For similar type of players it does.

If you look at tennis show done by the senior tour, they make things more impressively than what we see on the main tour. The difference is that they have all the time in the world to keep the ball in court.

Pace is everything in tennis. You can slow down the pace of the rallies (like Nadal and Djoko did it in 2010 as compared to Fed v Blake for instance) but then you have to compensate with longer rallies and more importantly, faster footwork.

If Nadal had played as slow as 2009, Verdasco woudl have been able to hit harder and more precisely.

Tenez

Posts : 17175
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by luvsports! on Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:15 am

It's just when I see a match where over 150 winners are hit in 5 sets compared to less than 50 in 3 - you can see why I am inclined to think that it's not better, despite the fact it may be faster now.

luvsports!

Posts : 4022
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Tenez on Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:58 am

Sure but Nadal's slice really helped Verdy pull all those winners in 2009. This is what I noticed in 2010 and more so in 2013 how Nadal improved his BH considerably by cutting his slices and being more aggressive on that side.

Tenez

Posts : 17175
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:49 pm

luvsports! wrote:So if they hit the ball harder, that makes it better?


What's easier to do: hit the ball as hard as you can and not miss or with half the energy?

And then consider the amount of energy now spent on one point, one game...

I watched a game of Zverev yesterday, he was a set up and 2:2 in the second.
Then there was a long point in which he tried to run down every ball, he was better than NoleNadal and Murray put together, it was quite incredible...
He lost that point. He lost that set and got bagelled in the third.


Best thing to do is to try it out yourself, you'll see it straight away.

noleisthebest

Posts : 24967
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:52 pm

Tenez wrote:You don;t have as nearly sliced BH from Nadal. He himself is much more aggressive from that side. he has no choice in fact if he doesn;t want to do too much rallying.
I personally haven't noticed that Nadal is slicing less, from time to time Nadal still does slice it slow and deep to frustrate his opponent.
I do think there's a distinction though when measuring the pace of these rallies between the pace of normal rallies going up (i.e. they're hitting the ball faster), and the decision of whether to slice or not.
As I said Nadal when he feels like it still does do his slow slices, and they can be quite effective and frustrating the opponent, I don't think that's changed over the last 7 years.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:53 pm

Tenez wrote:This is what I noticed in 2010 and more so in 2013 how Nadal improved his BH considerably by cutting his slices and being more aggressive on that side.  
Nadal's backhand now is a lot worse than it was in 2010-2013, in my opinion.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:56 pm

luvsports! wrote:I'm not sure if they have but even if it is a lot faster, that doesn't mean comparatively it was a lot better quality.
On this count, Tenez is right I think.
IF (and it is a big if) tennis has sped up; then what Tenez's saying makes a lot more sense.

You don't even have to phrase it as 'quality' if you don't want to- but if Nadal in 2007 is used to playing the game at 50mph, but then in 2014 can play the game at 80mph- his 2007 game would not have coped at all in 2014.
Tenez's problem is the data simply doesn't show it. We have lots of data on this thread, and there's no clear trend either way.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:06 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
Tenez wrote:This is what I noticed in 2010 and more so in 2013 how Nadal improved his BH considerably by cutting his slices and being more aggressive on that side.  
Nadal's backhand now is a lot worse than it was in 2010-2013, in my opinion.

And what do you mean by "worse"?

Why don't you for once in your life stop and consider the opposition.
Why does suddenly Nadal's BH look "worse" although it's technically faster and better.

Consider Nadal's new racquet...more spin less control...what does it tell you about him as a player?
He is slow and does not have talent to take the ball early.
So when the ball is coming to him faster he has less time now to deal with it, is pressured and misses more.
His only other solutuion has always been to hit the ball harder and safer...can't you see how limited he is?

Tennis is not a game against the wall.

noleisthebest

Posts : 24967
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:08 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:
Tenez wrote:This is what I noticed in 2010 and more so in 2013 how Nadal improved his BH considerably by cutting his slices and being more aggressive on that side.  
Nadal's backhand now is a lot worse than it was in 2010-2013, in my opinion.

And what do you mean by "worse"?
From what I can observe, he doesn't hit it faster, he doesn't create as many angles as he used to, he doesn't get the same depth he used to, and it is more prone to errors than it used to be.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:11 pm

He is hitting it faster.
The reason it's shorter (if it is shorter, I haven't watched much of him lately) it's because he is losing confidence and playing as safely as possible.

When a fast deep ball comes to him which is now considerably faster and harder to deal with - he simply has less time.

Nadal's tennis is all about needing time to hit the ball...that's why he stands so far back.

noleisthebest

Posts : 24967
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:13 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
When a fast deep ball comes to him which is now considerably faster and harder to deal with - he simply has less time.
Well is it faster ?
Just look at the plethora of data on this thread, there is absolutely nothing to suggest the play has got faster.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by DECIMA on Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:20 pm

Tenez wrote:

2/ No, you've made a mistake here in your calculations.
For 10 lengths, it does from 3:08-3:23
That is 15 seconds, not 12.5 seconds as you said. So the average here is 1.5.
1.5s per rally...once again you are not serious.
What do you mean I'm not serious ?
Check from your earlier link, between 3:08-3:23... it is very clearly 15 seconds for those 10 lengths.
Just because it's not one you found, or it doesn't fit your pre-held view, doesn't mean it doesn't count.

DECIMA

Posts : 4429
Join date : 2013-05-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:20 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
When a fast deep ball comes to him which is now considerably faster and harder to deal with - he simply has less time.
Well is it faster ?
Just look at the plethora of data on this thread, there is absolutely nothing to suggest the play has got faster.
Kim,

seriously, myself and especially Tenez have done our utmost best to show the ball is hit consoderably faster now...that's the way tennis has been evolving in the last few years.

Nadal took it to physical level, making rallies longer.

Then the opposition worked the way to beat that style is to simply hit the ball harder (automatically faster), it takes a lot of practice and hard work to improve ball-striking that way, esp under match-playing pressure circumstances.

It also required the tour catching up with fitness as it is very exhausting to hit the ball hard for a long time...and not just hit it hard but have fast legs and great anticipation to get to the same fast hard hit ball your opponent sends you back.

To is it's easy to see with bare eyes, to you it seems difficult.
Those two clips of Nadal-Verdasco matches from AO and Miami are brilliant examples.

noleisthebest

Posts : 24967
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by luvsports! on Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:24 pm

You are misconstruing my point Kim. 
For example the 2005 wtf final between nalby and feds. Some of the shotmaking was outrageous. Just because the game may be faster today, doesn't make it better or possess more "quality".

luvsports!

Posts : 4022
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum