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ATP Masters 1000: Miami

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Post by luvsports! on Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:54 am

That was the match of his life. Yes I get it people improve but sometimes there is one match that stands out in your career that you will never play better in.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:57 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
I don't think me or LS are saying Verdasco played well all throughout 2009, however he played incredible in the Aus Open.

No but I can give you a 100 matches where Nadal's opponents played great in the past cause Nadal often feeds with a short ball so on a good day many players have looked great versus Nadal. Woudl you deny that?

Nadal made teh weirdest players look great at times...PHM, 18yo Dimi, retiring Hewitt, Isner, Youzhny, Querrey, the list is very long.....


Last edited by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:57 am

luvsports! wrote:That was the match of his life. Yes I get it people improve but sometimes there is one match that stands out in your career that you will never play better in.

I don't think so.

That was the best match of 2009 for him. Watch the clip of 2009 and today's match with your eyes closed, even the sound of ball should tell you the difference.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:01 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg1zgLWo6nI

I only saw the first point but it says it all....despite Verdy winning it!

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Post by luvsports! on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:02 am

You won't convince me otherwise.
This is imo the best tiebreak of attacking play i've ever seen. 
Take a bow 2009 aus nando. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjnvvzmX6MY

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:03 am

Tenez wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg1zgLWo6nI

I only saw the first point but it says it all....despite Verdy winning it!
I challenge you LS and Kim to tell me that the level of this tennis was better than today.

Frankly that looks slo mo to me.

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Post by luvsports! on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:06 am

Twain & Nietzsche come to mind in this discussion :P

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:07 am

luvsports! wrote:You won't convince me otherwise.
This is imo the best tiebreak of attacking play i've ever seen. 
Take a bow 2009 aus nando. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjnvvzmX6MY

but honestly can't you see how the ball is hit more violently today? Can't you see how far is Nadal behind the baseline, how weaker was his BH? Verdy today woudl not engage onto those long rallies. He woudl whack the ball..end of!

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:08 am

luvsports! wrote:Twain & Nietzsche come to mind in this discussion :P

I am afraid LS, you have got to see the difference in pace. It's bloody obvious!

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:09 am

When I have time I'll work out a rally/per sec and show it to you with numbers.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:11 am

Tenez wrote:
luvsports! wrote:Twain & Nietzsche come to mind in this discussion :P

I am afraid LS, you have got to see the difference in pace. It's bloody obvious!
And once people see the difference in pace, they'll understand how physical tennis is atm, why Nadal is "declining", why Federer is playing the best tennis of his career and why there are no teenagers in top 20.

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Post by luvsports! on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:14 am

Say if the game has got faster.
Does that mean that they are both better? Was the task of beating rafa back then still as daunting and difficult if not more in a bo5? 
SOmetimes it seems you can never admit that a player can have an off day and not play as well as they did in the past. 
Winners is a very good barometer and in these clips in 09 rafa looks like he covers the ground quicker, making a winner even ahrder.

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Post by DEC1M8 on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:15 am

Tenez wrote:
Tenez wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg1zgLWo6nI

I only saw the first point but it says it all....despite Verdy winning it!
I challenge you LS and Kim to tell me that the level of this tennis was better than today.

Frankly that looks slo mo to me.
Not to me...

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:18 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Tenez wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg1zgLWo6nI

I only saw the first point but it says it all....despite Verdy winning it!
I challenge you LS and Kim to tell me that the level of this tennis was better than today.

Frankly that looks slo mo to me.
Not to me...

That's the problem.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:20 am

Live ATP ranking:

1 Novak Djokovic SRB 12250 - Miami R32 - 12295 13205
2 Roger Federer SUI 9025 - - - - -
3 Andy Murray GBR 5605 +1 Miami R16 - 5695 6515
4 Rafael Nadal ESP 5255 -1 - Lost in Miami R32 - -
5 Kei Nishikori JPN 5145 - Miami R32 - 5190 6100
6 Milos Raonic CAN 5025 - Miami R32 - 5070 5980

Both Nishi and Raonic can overtake Nadal after Miami!
Clay season is going to be very interesting.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:22 am

luvsports! wrote:Say if the game has got faster.
Does that mean that they are both better? Was the task of beating rafa back then still as daunting and difficult if not more in a bo5? 
SOmetimes it seems you can never admit that a player can have an off day and not play as well as they did in the past. 
Winners is a very good barometer and in these clips in 09 rafa looks like he covers the ground quicker, making a winner even ahrder.

But just look at that TB you posted....can't you see Nadal is essentially slicing on teh BH and his FH is bloody short, allowing Verdy to look much better than he was? Nadal is only scrapping right and left...like in so many matches of that era. It was usually enough to beat most players....including Federer at that game. In 2011 and onwards Nadal is simply so much better.

I am not trying to be right as much as really pointing the difference in tennis. Glad you refered to that match cause it is so clear how teh game evolved since. Winners coudl be a good barometers, but if yuo have a dramatic match with lots of deuces you may have more winners than it deserves....probably more UEs as well.

Ad no...I think the game moves too quick to think that a top player was better 5 years ago. If that was the case he woudl not be a top player anymore.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:33 am

luvsports! wrote:Say if the game has got faster.
Does that mean that they are both better? Was the task of beating rafa back then still as daunting and difficult if not more in a bo5? 
SOmetimes it seems you can never admit that a player can have an off day and not play as well as they did in the past. 
Winners is a very good barometer and in these clips in 09 rafa looks like he covers the ground quicker, making a winner even ahrder.

Nadal is having a year off not a day off.
He is losing confidence because what he's got isn't enough any more. Back to my Klizan post, so many players can hit the ball hard now AND KEEP IT IN PLAY ( i.e. play low-risk percentage tennis).

And Nadal is not even 29.

Can you imagine him play at 34?

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Post by DEC1M8 on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:48 am

noleisthebest wrote:
And Nadal is not even 29.

Can you imagine him play at 34?
That's the point, he's declining. Only you and Tenez can't see it.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:52 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
And Nadal is not even 29.

Can you imagine him play at 34?
That's the point, he's declining. Only you and Tenez can't see it.
Who federer? I think not a single ATP player see him declining either....as he is still ahead of them all..bar one!! Laugh

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Post by DEC1M8 on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:55 am

Nadal was better back in 2005:


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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:56 am

Nadal could be number 5 or even number 6 next week if Nishi and Rao do well here.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:56 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Nadal was better back in 2005:


he won...he was better....yep...I think I grasped your logic!

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:01 am

Main thing is - Nadal's H2Hs are safe Winking

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:09 am

Funny thing, with all yesterday's excitement, I keep thinking it's Monday - as if the final was played yesterday...but we're not even in QFs!

Match of the Day:

Nishikori-Troicki
Dolgopolov-Bellucci

& the "rest"

Goffin-Janowicz
Dimitrov-Isner
Chardy-Raonic
Ferrer-Rosol
Simon-Falla


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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:30 pm

Dolgo-Bellucci starting! diva

Saw a little of Nishi-Troicki, quite dull, Nishi was too quick, btw, looks super hot in Miami.

Has Dolgo ever won any decent tournaments?

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:49 pm

“He played well the third, so he deserved to win more than me without any doubt tonight,” said Nadal. “Today, my game in general improved since a month and a half [ago]. But at the same time, [I’m] still playing with too many nerves in a lot of moments, in important moments.

“I was anxious on court… I wanted to be there. I tried in every point, but I was not able to relax myself, calm myself.”
====================
A pretty fair account by Nadal. In particular the bold one. I also thought he was playing very well but only in set 2...and nervous on the other big points.

Whereas in teh past I labelled him the luckiest player on earth cause he also had those Bps, SPs and Mps against him but back then it was his opponents who were nervous.....now it's him.....cause he knows his opponents are less nervous. But I honestly don;t think his game is any worse than 2010 or 11. Just that people forget that though he was winning a lot tons of his matches were actually down to a point there and then.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:00 pm

I definitely remember some of those lucky close matches: Hamburg 2008 final, Queens 2008 final, Madrid 2009 SF...those were painful!
I suppose also RG 2012,13 F/SF...(and that's just against Nole)

The number of times his opponent would net an overhead after having 5 winners retrieved...

Now, the aura is fading.

I still think most players don't want to face him as they know how physical and tough it is to put the ball past him.
Look what kind of crazy FHs Verdasco had to hit over and over again last night!

That is no small feat.

People just dismiss him : ah it's only Verdasco, but he played better than Stan in that AO final in order to win.

Nadal is still the one to beat in RG.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:18 pm

Crowd managed to ressurect half-dead Dolgo.
I've never seen him so fired up!

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:57 pm

Wimbledon, Great Britain; 21.06.2010; GS; Outdoor: Grass; Draw: 128
Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Kei Nishikori (JPN) 189 W 6-2, 6-4, 6-4 Stats
R64 Robin Haase (NED) 151 W 5-7, 6-2, 3-6, 6-0, 6-3 Stats
R32 Philipp Petzschner (GER) 41 W 6-4, 4-6, 6-7(5), 6-2, 6-3 Stats
R16 Paul-Henri Mathieu (FRA) 66 W 6-4, 6-2, 6-2 Stats
Q Robin Soderling (SWE) 6 W 3-6, 6-3, 7-6(4), 6-1 Stats
S Andy Murray (GBR) 4 W 6-4, 7-6(6), 6-4 Stats
W Tomas Berdych (CZE) 13 W 6-3, 7-5, 6-4 Stats

This to me sums up Nadal's career...he finished very strong in that tournament and people will remember that...but forget how close he was to get out earlier.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:09 pm

Nothing exciting to watch thus far.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:10 pm

wow just realised Rao just lost teh second set....what happened? he was a break up?

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:14 pm

I saw the last game in which he got broken.

I first noticed his painful haircut.
Then that his tennis was matching it.


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Post by DEC1M8 on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:51 pm

Raonic is really not playing well.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:14 pm

I used the so called "amazing 2009 AO TB" LS is referring to above and compared it with yesterday's match between  Nadal and Verdasco :

To work out pace I had to use the 2 long rallies we have in that TB (plus another long rally of that match in another clip to consolidate the numbers as 2 rallies are not enough. In fact the other long rally I chose was faster than in that TB) and compared it with long rallies of yesterday match.

First the first conclusion is that it is harder to find long rallies (14 shots plus) in yesterday match. The game is played faster, taking more risk and more importantly, so much faster between points. You can see Nadal taking 56s between the first 2 points of that AO09 TB. Woudl not be tolerated today!

Second taking an average of 3 rallies of 14 + shots the game yesterday was played 12 percent faster. you can check by yourself:

AO09 TB
21 30 1.428571429
14 20 1.428571429
20 28 1.4
average 1.419047619


Miami 2015
14 18 1.285714286
10 12.5 1.25
16 20 1.25
average 1.261904762

So playing faster is of course going to produce more UEs, and is simply more difficult to sustain.
Kim, it also shows that though you don;t see the game as being faster now comapred to then...it is! in effect your analog vision is biased!

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Post by DEC1M8 on Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:21 pm

Can you give me the links you used and timings.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:27 pm

Excellent work, T.

Imprtant to state what the extra speed means to a player: shorter reaction time, less time for spin, requires quicker footwork, tires the arm faster (esp the SBH-er), harder to focus, encourages safer reactive ball-striking...

Those who can time the ball better can benefit like Verdasco did last night.

Those who retrieve behind the base-line need more energy for their shots than 5 years ago.

What struck me was how much Nadal actually panicked, you were so right to question his "mental strength" all these years!

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:20 pm

As mentioned I took the TB link sent by LS.

and I can't remember which 3rd point I chose but take the 7mn04 point below. 5/6 15/30. Only 12 shots but good enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9nWyXdk-dU

Then yesterday's match
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybz8rrrk7ps

I took the second point and a couple others of 10 and 16 shots rallies....and strangely they are all of the same pace roughly.

You have to pick baseline rallies with no net play involved.


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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:23 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Excellent work, T.

Imprtant to state what the extra speed means to a player: shorter reaction time, less time for spin, requires quicker footwork, tires the arm faster (esp the SBH-er), harder to focus, encourages safer reactive ball-striking...

Those who can time the ball better can benefit like Verdasco did last night.

Those who retrieve behind the base-line need more energy for their shots than 5 years ago.

What struck me was how much Nadal actually panicked, you were so right to question his "mental strength" all these years!

Yes what you see is that back in 2009 you had Nadal (and Verdasco) play a lot more sliced BH to give himself time and it is also a safe shot. Nowadays a sliced BH can too easily be attacked. Especially with Nandos shots.

DHBH make more damage, pacier but they are riskier.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:31 pm

just catching up with Djoko v Darcis. Djoko much quicker on his feet, better serves....but shots for shots, Darcis is probably better....a much better BH slice too.

Djoko trying to be aggresive on BP.....and lost it with a poor volley.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:34 pm

Yes, saw that.

At least he tried the right play.
He could've easily kept bludgeoing Darcis' BH.

Nole's sliced BH is very basic.
Darcis' is full-bodied and versatile.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:39 pm

Djoko's shots are ok...but really nothing special...the luxury he has is that besides being really quick on his feet, being consistent allow him to throw a good risky shots every now and then which makes him look a better shot maker than he really is.

His bread and butter points are the consistent, not flashy BH and FH cross court.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Excellent work, T.

Imprtant to state what the extra speed means to a player: shorter reaction time, less time for spin, requires quicker footwork, tires the arm faster (esp the SBH-er), harder to focus, encourages safer reactive ball-striking...

Those who can time the ball better can benefit like Verdasco did last night.

Those who retrieve behind the base-line need more energy for their shots than 5 years ago.

What struck me was how much Nadal actually panicked, you were so right to question his "mental strength" all these years!

Yes what you see is that back in 2009 you had Nadal (and Verdasco) play a lot more sliced BH to give himself time and it is also a safe shot. Nowadays a sliced BH can too easily be attacked. Especially with Nandos shots.

DHBH make more damage, pacier but they are riskier.

Interesting you think it's riskier. I suppose it is riskier but not risky.
Both Nadal and Verdasco don't go down the line with their BHs.

I find with DBH-ers, their FHs are far riskier as they are often average, at least with percentage players.

Which why fitness is so important.

Fernando's FH last night was first class, he was belting it so hard I thought the court was going to crack at one point.

2009 and yesterday - two very different matches.

Faster tennis really exposes Nadal. Even on slow courts now.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:46 pm

Tenez wrote:Djoko's shots are ok...but really nothing special...the luxury he has is that besides being really quick on his feet, being consistent allow him to throw a good risky shots every now and then which makes him look a better shot maker than he really is.

His bread and butter points are the consistent, not flashy BH and FH cross court.

His BH looks much better in real life than in TV.
Nishi's is quicker but Nole can send it anywhere he likes from any position.


For me, DBH looks like a torture to play, I know I keep going on about it, but why or why was it ever allowed...
It makes me want to scream!

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:49 pm

I didn't realise Darcis was serving for the set while I was typing here...at least he made it interesting for the crowd.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:52 pm

the BH is more or less the equivalent of the top spin FH. You keep the ball longer in your racquet, more spin and therefore safer.

The DHBH is safer than a SHBH of course due to its bigger sweetspot but there is not as much spin in it....though Djoko can certainly put a fair share into it but because they are usually hit flatter and faster they are riskier than the BH slice.

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ATP Masters 1000: Miami - Page 5 Empty Re: ATP Masters 1000: Miami

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:53 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:Djoko's shots are ok...but really nothing special...the luxury he has is that besides being really quick on his feet, being consistent allow him to throw a good risky shots every now and then which makes him look a better shot maker than he really is.

His bread and butter points are the consistent, not flashy BH and FH cross court.

His BH looks much better in real life than in TV.
Nishi's is quicker but Nole can send it anywhere he likes from any position.


For me, DBH looks like a torture to play, I know I keep going on about it, but why or why was it ever allowed...
It makes me want to scream!

He hits so many BH that of course he has developed a good one but I think his DTL BH is very over rated...a bit like Nadal's volleys. They hardly use those shots.

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ATP Masters 1000: Miami - Page 5 Empty Re: ATP Masters 1000: Miami

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:58 pm

Tenez wrote:the BH is more or less the equivalent of the top spin FH. You keep the ball longer in your racquet, more spin and therefore safer.

The DHBH is safer than a SHBH of course due to its bigger sweetspot but there is not as much spin in it....though Djoko can certainly put a fair share into it but because they are usually hit flatter and faster they are riskier than the BH slice.
Yes, especially Dolgo's BH.
He hit a few phenomenal ones the other day. But it's quite rare among other players...maybe Paire a few years ago.

Though, Mannarino's BH is super, too.

The rest are just drilled shots.
Drilled to the point they make the rest of game mechanical.

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ATP Masters 1000: Miami - Page 5 Empty Re: ATP Masters 1000: Miami

Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:00 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:the BH "SLICE" is more or less the equivalent of the top spin FH. You keep the ball longer in your racquet, more spin and therefore safer.

The DHBH is safer than a SHBH of course due to its bigger sweetspot but there is not as much spin in it....though Djoko can certainly put a fair share into it but because they are usually hit flatter and faster they are riskier than the BH slice.
Yes, especially Dolgo's BH.
He hit a few phenomenal ones the other day. But it's quite rare among other players...maybe Paire a few years ago.

Though, Mannarino's BH is super, too.

The rest are just drilled shots.
Drilled to the point they make the rest of game mechanical.
....meant to say.

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ATP Masters 1000: Miami - Page 5 Empty Re: ATP Masters 1000: Miami

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:01 am

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:Djoko's shots are ok...but really nothing special...the luxury he has is that besides being really quick on his feet, being consistent allow him to throw a good risky shots every now and then which makes him look a better shot maker than he really is.
His bread and butter points are the consistent, not flashy BH and FH cross court.
His BH looks much better in real life than in TV.
Nishi's is quicker but Nole can send it anywhere he likes from any position.
For me, DBH looks like a torture to play, I know I keep going on about it, but why or why was it ever allowed...
It makes me want to scream!
He hits so many BH that of course he has developed a good one but I think his DTL BH is very over rated...a bit like Nadal's volleys. They hardly use those shots.
Yes, just said that in the previous post.
I find the same case with Stan's BH.

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ATP Masters 1000: Miami - Page 5 Empty Re: ATP Masters 1000: Miami

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:13 am

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:the BH "SLICE" is more or less the equivalent of the top spin FH. You keep the ball longer in your racquet, more spin and therefore safer.
Drilled to the point they make the rest of game mechanical.
....meant to say.

Yes, BH slice is often used as a moonball by DBH-ers, and did you notice how they are uncomfortable with it the longer it goes...it often gets netted.

SBH-ers are a lot more natural and at ease with it.

But to me top-spin FH and sliced BH don't have the same safe effect, I think with DBH-ers, they are actually safer with their FHs, esp as they are usually hit with big margins and drilled to death.

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