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Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

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Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win? - Page 2 Empty Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:53 pm

Here's the most recent i tervirpew Coric gave to Serbian media.
Google translate should do the job, but any question, please ask! smiley

http://www.b92.net/sport/intervjui/intervjui.php?yyyy=2015&mm=03&nav_category=91&nav_id=966707

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:07 pm

noleisthebest wrote:How can a game collapse?
Especially the one as safe as Nadal's?

Good point.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:26 pm

OK, I translated part of that interview, call it The Coric Self-Assessment :

"There are many ways I can play. I have an option of being defensive but also to attack - not completely attacking - but I can attack, especially when I am playing well and when I feel the right way on the court.
I need to continue to play the same way - to keep high tempo,  to "mix" a little. Still, there is no rule, it depends who the opponent is, then I look to do things that don't suit them.
Depending on the rival, I can play with more spin or flatter, higher or lower balls, there are many variations, and there is no basic plan, every match is different.

I must work on many segments in my game, starting with serve which needs to be more solid and consistent. Then, there is my forehand - I need to react better with it, on the so-called "dead balls", after which I should be finishing the point, and I am nit doing it because I don't have enough confidence.
Still, it doesn't happen overnight and I am aware I need to work on it for months, years.
It's a process I need to work on daily in order to annul my weaknesses.

When I am playing well, I can play egal with quality players. I am still troubled by best of 5 format, as I have only played a few of those matches.
It is not easy to keep high level of play for 3-4 sets especially with my style of play - I am defensive, I keep the ball in play a lot, I don't go for winners much, and I don't serve 5 aces per match, I build the points gradually.
So, I have to work a lot on physical strength."


Feel free to highlight your favourite bits Winking

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Post by DEC1M8 on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:32 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:How can a game collapse?
Especially the one as safe as Nadal's?

Good point.
Because he's now past his prime, and is more prone to off days...

Look, we are just going round in circles now; my position on the question in the OP is based on logic and the evidence.
Nadal is miles ahead of what Coric is at 18, and frankly I doubt Coric throughout his career will ever hit the heights Nadal hit when he was 18.
We can see the matches for comparison; in 2005 Nadal won the French Open, and really made Federer struggle when they played in Miami, in both 2004 and 2005.
Federer recently played Coric, and won with the loss of 3 games.

Now I know Tenez you think Federer has improved, from 2005 to 2015, which many disagree with; but the idea he's improved to the extent he loses the first to sets to Nadal in Miami, and then beats a better version of Nadal with the loss of 3 games is so ludicrous it's beyond belief. It's so unreasonable it's indefensible. Federer was at his peak in 2005, not ten fold worse than he is now.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:28 pm

Answering to the OP. Its definitely Nadal and by some distance. Coric has had some upsets but he hasn't strung enough wins together to be a reckoning force on tour. Muarry and Nadal are kind of players who can get beaten by many on tour. But that doesn't mean anyone who beats them is better than them. We can't really know how Coric would have played a 2005-06 Fed. But Fed those days had an aura of invincibility like none ever in history of tennis. Nadal on one surface for sure turned it completely upside down. Coric hasn't even reached close. 

Let's see how he plays the 2015 dominant player Djokovic. That will decide if he was better than Nadal or not. 

Fed 2015 beats Coric easily, but also loses badly to Seppi in a slam 3rd round. Fed 05-06 certainly wouldn't. Is this Fed better? Not in my book.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:11 am

noleisthebest wrote:I must work on many segments in my game, starting with serve which needs to be more solid and consistent. Then, there is my forehand - I need to react better with it, on the so-called "dead balls", after which I should be finishing the point, and I am nit doing it because I don't have enough confidence.
Still, it doesn't happen overnight and I am aware I need to work on it for months, years.
That's so true....and the reason is that he simply chose to be successful first ...but not a great......and also most probably because he does not have the sheer talent to be an aggressive player.

When I am playing well, I can play egal with quality players. I am still troubled by best of 5 format, as I have only played a few of those matches.
It is not easy to keep high level of play for 3-4 sets especially with my style of play - I am defensive, I keep the ball in play a lot, I don't go for winners much, and I don't serve 5 aces per match, I build the points gradually.
So, I have to work a lot on physical strength." [/i]
Well at least he knows his strength.

Good pick NITB.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:23 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Nadal is miles ahead of what Coric is at 18, and frankly I doubt Coric throughout his career will ever hit the heights Nadal hit when he was 18.
You are mixing things again. It is well established that Djoko is a better player than Nadal. Toni acknowledges it. It does not mean that Djoko will have a better career than Nadal. I very much doubt that Djoko will ever get to 14...yet he has over the last 4 years played a better tennis than Nadal. So Coric will never achieve as much as Nadal at 18 either cause though he is far better than nadal was at 18..the tennis has moved so much that no junior can nowadays achieve anything until they are 24. 18yo Nadal would have zero chance to achieve anything today. he woudl be crushed by Djoko, Federer, and 28yo Nadal...so no chance to have a snif at a slam.

We can see the matches for comparison; in 2005 Nadal won the French Open, and really made Federer struggle when they played in Miami, in both 2004 and 2005.
Federer recently played Coric, and won with the loss of 3 game
. Typical non sense comment. Coric did beat Nadal in Basle and beat Murray too. ..yet all are playing in a much more "professional" era according to Djoko who I guess knows better than you.

Now I know Tenez you think Federer has improved, from 2005 to 2015, which many disagree with; but the idea he's improved to the extent he loses the first to sets to Nadal in Miami, and then beats a better version of Nadal with the loss of 3 games is so ludicrous it's beyond belief. It's so unreasonable it's indefensible. Federer was at his peak in 2005, not ten fold worse than he is now.
More non sense I am afraid. Fed has considerably improved since 2005. He simply learnt a new game. His big serve and FH was leading him nowhere versus the new generation...unless he had a good day but those guys improved dramatically since 2005 so fed had to move and evolve with them. .....exactly what nadal can't do nowadays. Stuck with his moonball game...a has been I am afraid.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:31 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Answering to the OP. Its definitely Nadal and by some distance. Coric has had some upsets but he hasn't strung enough wins together to be a reckoning force on tour. Muarry and Nadal are kind of players who can get beaten by many on tour. But that doesn't mean anyone who beats them is better than them. We can't really know how Coric would have played a 2005-06 Fed. But Fed those days had an aura of invincibility like none ever in history of tennis. Nadal on one surface for sure turned it completely upside down. Coric hasn't even reached close. 
Again we are not talking achievements....as we can see to achieve in today era is much harder for teens than it was in 2004 or 5. That is what we have to compare what is comparable. Nadal arrived at 18 fitter than anybody......that was his only strength. However nowadays, everybody is extremely fit. 18yo Nadal would simply have no chance in today's era. Remember when nadal arrived a big serve and a FH was getting you to a slam...nowdays none wins with a serve and a FH. You need lungs too....or Fed's new game.

Let's see how he plays the 2015 dominant player Djokovic. That will decide if he was better than Nadal or not. 
Djoko is now 4 times better than 18yo Nadal. It's not even close.

Fed 2015 beats Coric easily, but also loses badly to Seppi in a slam 3rd round. Fed 05-06 certainly wouldn't. Is this Fed better? Not in my book.
Did he lose to seppi due to his age or his back?

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:53 am

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:I must work on many segments in my game, starting with serve which needs to be more solid and consistent. Then, there is my forehand - I need to react better with it, on the so-called "dead balls", after which I should be finishing the point, and I am nit doing it because I don't have enough confidence.
Still, it doesn't happen overnight and I am aware I need to work on it for months, years.
That's so true....and the reason is that he simply chose to be successful first ...but not a great......and also most probably because he does not have the sheer talent to be an aggressive player.

When I am playing well, I can play egal with quality players. I am still troubled by best of 5 format, as I have only played a few of those matches.
It is not easy to keep high level of play for 3-4 sets especially with my style of play - I am defensive, I keep the ball in play a lot, I don't go for winners much, and I don't serve 5 aces per match, I build the points gradually.
So, I have to work a lot on physical strength." [/i]
Well at least he knows his strength.

Good pick NITB.

Yes, he is a worker, and works pays off more than ever in current era.
Interesting to see how he thinks, the two elements that are definition of talent (serve and FH) are two areas he doesn't have...and has to compensate with muscle.
I am just curious to see if he can play closer to the baseline.
If he can't - he's toast.

What do you think?

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:19 am

noleisthebest wrote:I am just curious to see if he can play closer to the baseline.
If he can't - he's toast.

What do you think?
Nadal won 14 slams from 5m behind the baseline.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:33 am

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:I am just curious to see if he can play closer to the baseline.
If he can't - he's toast.

What do you think?
Nadal won 14 slams from 5m behind the baseline.

Yes, but Nadal had his "element of surprise", and that era is passing by, not many are trying to follow him esp as everyone is fitter now.
Coric will certainly be tough to beat when his stamina improves.
As he is, he is not baby Nole, more baby Nadal.

I think he'd like to play like Nole, though.
Definitely interesting to follow and see what he is going to do. His belief is his big card atm, but that belief is fragile.
It would be good to have a good attacking player of his generation stand up to him.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:44 am

There are quite a few....but another is talked about in this tournament. Taylor Fritz

http://www.bnpparibasopen.com/en/media-and-news/news/2015/03/11/top-seed-coric-fritz-advance-in-qualifying

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:09 am

Tenez wrote:There are quite a few....but another is talked about in this tournament. Taylor  Fritz

http://www.bnpparibasopen.com/en/media-and-news/news/2015/03/11/top-seed-coric-fritz-advance-in-qualifying
Interesting! (what a name btw...)

Funny how they think:
"I feel like I have a fighting spirit" Fritz said. I was so nervous and it’s so tough to pay like that. I wanted to keep playing and keep on it."

Shouldn't he know by now whether he has a fighting spirit or not?
It must be such a shock when they step into the world of pros, a cruel awakening. It surely is not for everyone...

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:57 am

Would be interesting to see whether Coric can qualify and if he does where would he fit in the draw?

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:01 am

Tenez wrote:Again we are not talking achievements....as we can see to achieve in today era is much harder for teens than it was in 2004 or 5. That is what we have to compare what is comparable. Nadal arrived at 18 fitter than anybody......that was his only strength. However nowadays, everybody is extremely fit. 18yo Nadal would simply have no chance in today's era. Remember when nadal arrived a big serve and a FH was getting you to a slam...nowdays none wins with a serve and a FH. You need lungs too....or Fed's new game. 



I'm also not looking at achievements, I'm just saying how is Coric doing in the current field compared to how Nadal was doing in his 18th year. Coric has been brought up playing on slow conditions, new racquets.. everything that is there for him not to feel new on pro tour. Nadal was wiping off every single one on one surface, and also doing not bad at others. He wasn't like losing in 1st rounds of Hard courts or grass.


What is Coric doing in comparison? If fitness alone can win 14 majors, Murray wouldn't been stuck at 2. Nadal was a special player and it showed that time. I can't see Coric there.



Tenez wrote:Djoko is now 4 times better than 18yo Nadal. It's not even close.

Why would you compare an 18 Yo Nadal with 28 Yo Dokovic. 10 years is a long time in tennis. I brought Djokovic just because to refer a dominant player of the current age, which Djokovic is. Fed was far more dominant than Djokovic ever  was or will be. So if 18 yo Coric is even as good as Nadal if not better, he should be able to take the current dominant players at least close in matches.  But is he? No. His wins against Nadaland Murray are good, but as I've said they are kind of players beatable by many on tour.


 But 18 yo Nadal was taking the dominant players on. And not just Fed but other great clay courters like Coria too. Have you seen the 2005 Rome final?

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:55 am

Tenez wrote:Would be interesting to see whether Coric can qualify and if he does where would he fit in the draw?
He's got two matches to play and neither look difficult.
Then in the main draw... he,he that looks tempting for predictions, I'd say probably in the bottom half, either Youzhny or Estella Burgos, or in the top half they could line him up an easy qualifier.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:02 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
I'm also not looking at achievements, I'm just saying how is Coric doing in the current field compared to how Nadal was doing in his 18th year. Coric has been brought up playing on slow conditions, new racquets.. everything that is there for him not to feel new on pro tour. Nadal was wiping off every single one on one surface, and also doing not bad at others. He wasn't like losing in 1st rounds of Hard courts or grass.
But you are looking at achievements as your point is how they do versus their respective opponents. It is certainly one measure but as I said it has to be put in perspective as the game moved so much in 10 years....and certainly not for the benefit of youngsters.


What is Coric doing in comparison? If fitness alone can win 14 majors, Murray wouldn't been stuck at 2. Nadal was a special player and it showed that time. I can't see Coric there.
Of course fitness is what sorted Nadal from the rest and Murray was certainly not built to win long 5 setters so this is why he has regularly lost to guys fitter than him (Djoko and Nadal). I am surprised you still don;t see how the fittest has constantly won those slams over the last 5/6 years. ...bar rare accidental exceptions.

Why would you compare an 18 Yo Nadal with 28 Yo Dokovic. 10 years is a long time in tennis. I brought Djokovic just because to refer a dominant player of the current age, which Djokovic is. Fed was far more dominant than Djokovic ever  was or will be.
I brought that comparison to show how much the game has evolved...as you say 10 years is a long time...and the game has considerably moved since. Federer was far more dominant cause not only he was better but the tour was much less taxing than now. Much less physical, allowing Federer to play week in week out....even though it was exhausting already back then. Now it is absurdely physical.

So if 18 yo Coric is even as good as Nadal if not better, he should be able to take the current dominant players at least close in matches.  But is he? No. His wins against Nadal and Murray are good, but as I've said they are kind of players beatable by many on tour.
you will see how this guy improves from now - if he does not get injured - but achiveing what he does at 18 in this current era shows he is much better than Nadal at the same age. Nadal, like Borg, has benefitted from the fact the competition was not extreme physically and therefore it was much easier for Borg to win everything at his time and it was much harder after his time when everybody caught up with him physically. He suddenly became very beatable. Same applies with Nadal. Coric is raising th ebar yet again....but has simply less margins to make a real difference.

But 18 yo Nadal was taking the dominant players on. And not just Fed but other great clay courters like Coria too. Have you seen the 2005 Rome final?
As said I do not question it was easier for Nadal to do so...so he is probably comparatively better than Nadal, but certainly not on absolute values. That is my point. I am little doubt that Coric would crush 18yo Nadal....despite the fact that technically nothing has really changed in the last 10 years....just that the tour caught up with Nadal's fitness.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:07 pm

in other words, another example,....Bubka raised the bar much higher than any of his peers by beating many pole vault records....this new French record holder is "better" than Bubka as he has jumped higher.....yet he will make less of a gap with his peers as everybody else is catching up.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:34 pm

Tenez wrote:in other words, another example,....Bubka raised the bar much higher than any of his peers by beating many pole vault records....this new French record holder is "better" than Bubka as he has jumped higher.....yet he will make less of a gap with his peers as everybody else is catching up.
That's a great example.

There is only so much a body can be pushed, despite all the medicine etc. before it hits the brick wall.
Coric is a more talented version of Nadal, maybe even fitter than Nadal at 18, and compare their results!

You can't get a better proof/example of how much the game has changed.


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Post by luvsports! on Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:23 am

I will not say that Coric was better than Rafa but it is a great point to acknowledge.

1) Nadal raised the bar higher than ever before fitness wise and took the game by storm. If you swapped places with Coric maybe they would have had a very similar trajectory (I think not quite as Rafa imo was faster, aided by crazy spin, better fh and fitter). 
2) Just looking at someone's results, in this instance, is irrelevant, much like it is comparing era's - a futile task. The bar has been raised but ever so slightly, back then it was like the difference in height between a high jump and a pole vault!

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Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:45 am

Coric saved 3 or 4 MPs yesterday to beat number 170 player!!! won easily the first set then lost the second 61....before winning on his first TB MP 9/7.

So clearly ups and down here.

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Post by luvsports! on Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:52 pm

Tenez wrote:
luvsports! wrote:Nadal did have a fh and a big one at that.
Here he is aged 17 vs Hewitt at Aus 04.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CvCxCnOC7Q

Yes I know that clip...but that is not relevant as this is not the FH Nadal used to conquer the world. On that day, Toni perfectly knew that Nadal had not the stamina to outlast the best doper of the time. So Toni probably told him to go for it at the first occasion. So this clip is just a gathering of Nadal's winners without all the FH UEs that made him lose that match quite tamely.

Flagrant case selective shots clip.
It was 3 tight sets aged 17. I remember Safin destroying djoko at that age in aus 05.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:55 pm

I am surprised you are comparing a 17 year old stick insect Nole with a steroid pumped Nadal.

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Post by luvsports! on Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:04 pm

Nadal 04 was nada compared to 05 when his arms exploded.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:14 pm


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Post by luvsports! on Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:45 pm

That was almost a year later when he was 18 and a half.
Did you see Coric aged 16?

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:08 pm

luvsports! wrote:That was almost a year later when he was 18 and a half.
Did you see Coric aged 16?
Well, same dif compared to Nole when he was 18.5. which is what we were originally talking about when you mentioned Safin trouncng Nole in AO when Nole was 18.

I believe you were trying to say how much better Nadal was at 18 when he "squeezed" past Hewitt in 3 sets, which is why I mentioned their comparative physique.

Even at 18, Nadal had big muscles and in that Hewitt 2004 match clip we see they were not big enough since he could not win by taking the ball early on the baseline.
So...the muscles had to get even bigger or "explode" a year later as you said in order for him to be able to play from 4m behind the baseline which requires a lot more energy, same as Coric.

Tenez explained well why Coric looks less "successful" than Nadal with Bubka analogy, despite having all segments of his game better than 18 year old Nadal.

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Post by luvsports! on Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:23 pm

No.
Because you cannot prove that Coric is better. It's just his opinion and yours.
You cannot prove that Coric is better. I said in my 1),2) post all about my views and that was very clear. But Coric's bh is better than his fh and rafa's fh was and is better than his bh.

Why is Coric better in every asset of his game than rafa then?

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:53 pm

luvsports! wrote:No.
Because you cannot prove that Coric is better. It's just his opinion and yours.
You cannot prove that Coric is better. I said in my 1),2) post all about my views and that was very clear. But Coric's bh is better than his fh and rafa's fh was and is better than his bh.

Why is Coric better in every asset of his game than rafa then?

Coric at 18 compared to Nadal at 18 has better footwork and groundstrokes, a more complete game. He is natural in all parts of the court, actually has quite mature movement compared to Nadal.

It is far more difficult for an 18-year old to play and win in 2015 than in 2004/5.

Coric has completely outplayed Murray two weeks ago and has also beaten Nadal in Basel last year. Nadal couldn't even win a set off Hewitt.

I fail to see what makes you think Nadal is such a great player.



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Post by luvsports! on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:02 pm

In what way does he have better footwork?
In dealing with slice maybe? No. He struggled hugely with the knifing slice of Feds, Rafa has always been able to deal with it brilliantly as his incredible foot-speed and work allows him to hit fh's when most would play a bh. 

Murray hit over 50 errors, Rafa played one of the worst matches I've ever seen him play and had appendicitis. Yes congrats for winning but still. 

Because Coric doesn't have a fh. Nadal could hit winners off of his. 
Nadal was fitter, imo faster and his fh was more difficult to deal with and still is. 

Nadal at 17 beat Feds, ancic on grass and at 16 beat the defending FO champ Costa & Moya. 

You cannot compare era's but you are trying to bring that up so I am responding. 
I feel your disdain for Nadal is clouding your judgement.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:04 pm

Nadal has never beaten Federer with tennis skill, only with his muscles and dope.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:05 pm

luvsports! wrote:
Tenez wrote:
luvsports! wrote:Nadal did have a fh and a big one at that.
Here he is aged 17 vs Hewitt at Aus 04.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CvCxCnOC7Q

Yes I know that clip...but that is not relevant as this is not the FH Nadal used to conquer the world. On that day, Toni perfectly knew that Nadal had not the stamina to outlast the best doper of the time. So Toni probably told him to go for it at the first occasion. So this clip is just a gathering of Nadal's winners without all the FH UEs that made him lose that match quite tamely.

Flagrant case selective shots clip.
It was 3 tight sets aged 17. I remember Safin destroying djoko at that age in aus 05.

Here is a more compiled summary of his 2004 level. Good resuls but quite a few poor ones too. Nonetheless what is important is that at 17 he was already fitter than most guys on tour...so clearly he had an edge from the word go.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Rafael-Nadal.aspx?t=pa&y=2004&m=s&e=0#

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Post by luvsports! on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:11 pm

Well Coric didn't get close to him in their first meeting. Obviously Feds has seen this all now so is better equipped to deal with it but I just cannot see much credence in your view at all.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:17 pm

luvsports! wrote:No.
Because you cannot prove that Coric is better. It's just his opinion and yours.
You cannot prove that Coric is better. I said in my 1),2) post all about my views and that was very clear. But Coric's bh is better than his fh and rafa's fh was and is better than his bh.

Why is Coric better in every asset of his game than rafa then?
I think Federer said he understood why Coric gave trouble to the top players saying his moving on the BH side is excellent. He also said there is so much room for improvement.
At the end of the day Coric 17/18 beat Rafa in Basle. Rafa had won his previous round 61 61. And if he was unwell....then his second set shoudl have got worse than the 1st...however the score ws 62 76....with Nadal again very close to another of his 1000 comeback. He may not have felt too well but in my view, like we saw v Murray, both were surprised to see a young guy bringing everything back. Considering both progressed so much in the last 10 years, I have no doubt Coric is better than Nadal 18...but what really convinces me....is seeing them both comparatively on youtube clips. It's obvious to me Coric is faster...on HC at least (not sure about clay yet).

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Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:28 pm

luvsports! wrote:
Nadal at 17 beat Feds, ancic on grass and at 16 beat the defending FO champ Costa & Moya. 
If Nadal may have had apendicitis in Basle, Fed was certainly off sick in Miami 04...I think this is now well documented. He beat Ancic on "grass" but lost to Paradon 4 4 and 2. Difficult to read in just a few matches...as I said, I simply use my eyes to gauge the 2 players....this is how i found out that Federer post 2009 was actually better than his hey years of 2006/7. I used my eyes to work out that Fed had physical trouble in FO 12, etc... And I don;t think I have been wrong on gauging those things.

Woudl be interesting to use HE to make comparisons.

I am aware however that Coric will not have the "surprise effect" than Nadal had...not only fitness wise but also spinny FHs too.....but still if he carries on improving at this rate, there is huge room for imporvement as Fed said.

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Post by luvsports! on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:31 pm

It isn't obvious to me at all. He's djoko quick at a push.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:31 pm

luvsports! wrote:Well Coric didn't get close to him in their first meeting. Obviously Feds has seen this all now so is better equipped to deal with it but I just cannot see much credence in your view at all.
It makes a big difference playing Federer now who for the last 10 years worked up his game to actually beat those retrievers. Even though it was one sided....I coudl see how Coric would be extremely tough to beat in a couple of years if his improvement carries the same trajectory.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:33 pm

luvsports! wrote:It isn't obvious to me at all. He's djoko quick at a push.

Djoko is a better mover than Nadal. Not style wise but efficiently. Djoko is the only player who is always well placed on the ball allowing him to do something with the ball...unlike Nadal or Murray who have to pull the ball up to get enough time to come back on middle of baseline.

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Post by luvsports! on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:35 pm

Do you think Feds would have been taken to 5 sets by an Coric as he was taken to 5 in Miami 10 years ago?

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Post by luvsports! on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:38 pm

Faster is different to efficient mover though.
In terms of covering ground quicker, especio on clay, Rafa's footspeed is superior but he cannot do the insane lunges that Djoko can. 
I haven't seen the same flexibility or speed from Coric that djoko has.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:07 pm

luvsports! wrote:Do you think Feds would have been taken to 5 sets by an Coric as he was taken to 5 in Miami 10 years ago?
Honestly? Would not have surprised me at all. As I pointed many times.....fed had very close matches versus nobodies back then already. But also because this was typically the kind of game Federer struggled against....not only v Nadal but also young Djoko, young Murray and mature weaponless Hewitt.
Also fed played terribly in that first set of Miami 05...a copter was circling around and I remember him being furious....then he relaxes a bit and his 5/3 in the second before letting it slip....(this is where Nadal was deadly.....always sticking).....and Fed lost that 2nd set and really lost his temper breaking a racquet. He almost lot is in 3 but clearly he was nbot equipped back then to play those kind of games. Had Fed had a good day, I don't think Nadal would have troubled him.

It's a shame that now he knows how to play them, his back is playing up....

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Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:11 pm

luvsports! wrote:Faster is different to efficient mover though.
In terms of covering ground quicker, especio on clay, Rafa's footspeed is superior but he cannot do the insane lunges that Djoko can. 
I haven't seen the same flexibility or speed from Coric that djoko has.

When you watch that nowadays it's not that impressive but by 2005 standards it would have been eerily impressive.

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Post by luvsports! on Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:29 pm

I could send you a lot more clips that imo are more impressive from rafa at that age but I guess neither of us will budge.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:40 pm

luvsports! wrote:I could send you a lot more clips that imo are more impressive from rafa at that age but I guess neither of us will budge.
I am always ready to budge....Please forward..

It's actually when I see Rafa back then that I realise how limited his game was. he pulled great shots...as they all do but his bread butter shots were so short...and woudl be terribly punished nowadays. Look at Wilander game when he won teh FO at 17 and look at Wilander 8 years later.....huge difference......I expect this for all professinal players actually.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:14 pm

luvsports! wrote:I could send you a lot more clips that imo are more impressive from rafa at that age but I guess neither of us will budge.
Clips are useful but rarely representative of the whole match.
We all know how Nadal wins his matches: it's not with shot-making, it's not with attacking.
I'd love to know what's the average number of shots per point for him, especially in sets one and two in a match, regardless of whether it's best of 3 or 5 format.

He doesn't create, he destructs with his tennis.

Those are two different worlds that cannot be compared in terms of quality.
No amount of titles can mask Nadal's lack of game.
Conditions are making him appear successful. But his tennis is pure junk, same as Sara Errani's.

Shotmakers in this era are like swimmers not allowed to use arms in a race. There are so few of them anyway.
Tennis is virtually dead.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:31 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lWghN7-w60

I must say Nadal is quite impressive in that FO 2004 final. He is however nearly 19 there. The funny thing is Puerta was tested positive for that Final...but frankly, it's Nadal doing all the running there...and Puerta who ran out of steam!!!!!. Nadal's fitness is just absurd...even 10 years on!

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Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:20 pm

very interesting.....

2013 Wimbledon 1/4F Junior Coric v Chung...both same age...now Chung is 122 and will really struggle to get up the ranking while Coric considerably pumped up, probably grew up a bit more too and they are probably going to have very different career.

I really can't stand this Coric, very loud, brash and already at 15 insulting the referee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gZo6baHnzA


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Post by noleisthebest on Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:24 am

Yes, physical transformation is everything now...amazing to see how hard they hit the ball at 15!

Chung comes across more as a boy, whereas Coric already seems to know how to wind the opponent up.

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Post by summerblues on Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:41 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:He won't beat another top 10 player this year (unless they are injured or woefully off form)
I don't know about that.  He might, he might not, but I would give him better than even odds.

But I notice you have given yourself an out...

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Post by noleisthebest on Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:36 am

luvsports! wrote:Faster is different to efficient mover though.
In terms of covering ground quicker, especio on clay, Rafa's footspeed is superior but he cannot do the insane lunges that Djoko can. 
I haven't seen the same flexibility or speed from Coric that djoko has.

From what I saw of Coric, he does not scramble and run around to edges of courts/stands to retrieve shots.
His game is an intersting combination of Nadal (stands far behind the baseline), Nole (good allround groundstrokes and baseline variety) and Murray (can irritate the opponent with endless counterpunching).

Compared to Nadal at 18 - Coric already has more game.

And he is at the beginning of his pro career. He can hone his shots, and I'm pretty sure he could move close to the baseline, he does not enjoy being far behind it... though he can play from there for two whole sets, which is pretty crazy for an 18 year old especially consiering how physical tennis is atm.

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