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Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

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Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:28 am

I am intrigued to compare the evolution of those 2 players. To me they are very similar now and I think after seeing a bit of the DC match v Troicki I think Coric is actually closer to Nadal at the same age than Djokovic. Both stand very far back, both have a poor winners/FH ratio and both have a relatively poor serve.

I however believe that Coric is simply much better at 18 than Nadal was at the same age. It;s a bit normal as Nadal was the first to raise the physical bar by such margins over his peers and doing this nowadays for an 18yo woudl be much more difficult since everybody else improved considerably since 2004. However I find Coric footwork and covering of the court extremely impressive for his age. Though he seems have burst his lungs in that 5 setter v Troicki, he still had run like a rabbit for 2 sets and a half. It reminded me of Nadal losing the last 3 sets v Federer at Miami 2005. Coric however has a much better BH at the same age, moves at least as well as Nadal too but seems to have better hands as well.

Looking at SB's table Nadal so far wins the stats (And I am pretty sure that Coric will never win 14 slams) but I think he will be a tougher opponents of the other non clay slams than Nadal ever was. I woudl not be surprised if he were to be a longer number 1 as well...even if he is by far my least favourite youngster.

However looking at Coric now and Nadal then is a good way to see how the game has changed in the last 10 years. Nadal's ground shots were really poor 10 years ago.....but his mouvement, stamina and spin were enough weapons to trouble the players then. Coric will have a much tougher challenge ahead of him...but I am pretty sure that within a couple of years max he will be a far better version of Nadal, Djoko and Murray.


Coric
Federer
Nadal
Djokovic
Murray
Ranking at Coric's age
61*
66
48
97
122
First top 10 win
17y11m
17y5m
16y10m
18y5m
18y9m
First top 3 win
17y11m
19y8m
17y9m
19y9m
18y9m
First tournament win
?
19y4m
18y2m
19y1m
18y9m

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:26 am

Coric, no brainer.
Better mover, better everything else.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by luvsports! on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:50 am

Nadal.
Better fh and movement.

Fitness wise it's hard to tell because in 05 Feds was fitter at Miami. Going by that I would have to say he was fitter than Coric is (dead after 2-3 sets) but he will improve there. 
So the fitness of the tour has deffo improved, meaning that the insane fitness and strength of rafa deffo caught everyone out but maybe coric would have as well if they swapped round.

Goi

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:17 pm

I am not sure the 18 year old Nadal was fitter than Coric.
He may have looked it at the time compared with everyone else, but the game has moved on since.
Everyone is fitter and more complete now than 10 years ago.

18 year old Nadal would've not beaten either his 28-year old self or 27 year old Murray.


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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by luvsports! on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:32 pm

Yes but Rafa managed a good 3-4 sets against feds in 05 miami.
Coric managed 2 tops 3 against Troicki!

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by luvsports! on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:39 pm

And the Miami match was almost an hour longer.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:59 pm

luvsports! wrote:And the Miami match was almost an hour longer.
That might be why Nadal lasted longer. Though this is the last match Nadal played within the rules...he was still taking his time every now and then.

On the mouvement and FH side I am not convinced Nadal was better either. Nadal's FH in 2004/5 was really bad with most shots falling on the T line however I agree it was a more difficult shot to time due to the spin.....maybe. As NITB says it woudl take a lot more to surprise us today.

It looks to me that it is harder to get a winner past Coric now than Nadal then. If Federer had not got to the net to shorten the points he may have had to rally like crazy to win a point. That is the funny thing when watching the match v Murray the day before, one felt that Murray simply knew he had to be very aggressive cause there was no way he was going to win the long rallies...something that Murray never felt v Nadal...as Murray could choose when to attack with Nadal.....not the case it seems v Coric.


We will need to see more of it....obviously.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:21 pm

luvsports! wrote:Yes but Rafa managed a good 3-4 sets against feds in 05 miami.
Coric managed 2 tops 3 against Troicki!
Troicki is obviously no Federer but strikes a heavy pacy ball off both wings, and has a good serve.
To win two sets off him on Serbia, first match after the ban for DCs's no small feat.

Coric was playing from 4-5m behind the baseline, and that was very, very physically taxing.
He'll soon realise there is no hope for him in slams with that style at least for the the next 2-3 years.

Nole never played his tennis like that at 18, he always stood on the baseline.

Can Coric do the same is the big question.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:29 pm

This is what Coric said after losing to Federer:

"He was just way too good for me, was feeling so rushed. I didn’t have any time to play my game plan. I was just trying to hold in the rally as long as I can, and it was basically the only thing what I could do.

I was serving very badly. But I was serving badly all week. When you’re playing against a guy who is No 1 or No 2 in the world, you need to be serving much better if you’re going to even compete with him.

Like I said yesterday,I need to be on 100 per cent mentally, tennis wise and also physically, and today I just wasn’t good enough."

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:36 pm

...and this is what he said after his defeat to Troicki:

"Poceo je Viktor da igra malo agresivnije još u drugom setu, ali to mu se nije isplatilo, imao sam osećaj da ne može da me probije. Možda grešim, ali mislim da je moj pad uzorkovao poraz, nije to imalo mnogo veze sa iskustvom. Bio sam umoran – mali grčevi, noge mi nisu bile na nivou. On je to iskoristio na pravi način, osetio je trenutak momentalno, preuzeo je inicijativu i pobedio"

"Viktor started to play more aggressively in the 2nd set, but it didn't pay off for him, I had a feeling he couldn't hit through me.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think my "drop" caused the loss, it didn't have to do much with experience. I was tired - small cramps, my legs weren't at their best. He used it the right way, he felt the moment mentally, took the initiative and won."

http://www.b92.net/sport/tenis/vesti.php?yyyy=2015&mm=03&dd=06&nav_id=965616

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:00 pm

This is a good clip to remind us of the 2005 level...even if it seems to have been compiled by a Nadal fan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jur1hp7Xng

Even Fed looks slower than now and the key here is that it seems Federer simply has no BH power to actually move Nadal around. Relying solely on his FH to push Nadal in the corners.

Nadal's FH just about crosses the net...

I also noticed Coric's big guns v Troicki....he looks taller than Nadal and this is why they don't look as impressive as nadal same age....also Nadal's shirt really amplified them.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:08 pm

Tenez wrote:This is a good clip to remind us of the 2005 level...even if it seems to have been compiled by a Nadal fan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jur1hp7Xng

Even Fed looks slower than now and the key here is that it seems Federer simply has no BH power to actually move Nadal around. Relying solely on his FH to push Nadal in the corners.

Nadal's FH just about crosses the net...

I also noticed Coric's big guns v Troicki ....he looks taller than Nadal and this is why they don't look as impressive as nadal same age....also Nadal's shirt really amplified them.

You noticed well Winking


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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:14 pm

Tenez wrote:This his is a good clip to remind us of the 2005 level...even if it seems to have been compiled by a Nadal fan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jur1hp7Xng

Even Fed looks slower than now and the key here is that it seems Federer simply has no BH power to actually move Nadal around. Relying solely on his FH to push Nadal in the corners.

Nadal's FH just about crosses the net...
It certainly is!
Don't they both look slow compared to today.
A must watch for everyone who claims Fed was better then than now...
Nadal has improved so much since then as well. Coric would've beaten him in 2 sets.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:16 pm

funny picture of Coric...good find...he even has the zits of steroids users.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by luvsports! on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:16 pm

Wow! Coric is ripped. Scary. Just like Tipsy's roidy thighs.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by luvsports! on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:25 pm

It says that was taken in 2013! He would have been just 16 maybe!

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:28 pm

luvsports! wrote:Wow! Coric is ripped. Scary. Just like Tipsy's roidy thighs.
You remember those.....Incredible...looked like disproportionate.

Just shows that nowadays we see a Coric....we are not impressed cause we are so used to seeing those pumped up athletes.

However Federer seemed quite impressed by Coric's frame and I think he knows perfectly what's going on.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:31 pm

luvsports! wrote:It says that was taken in 2013! He would have been just 16 maybe!

yeah...you can see on his face he looks quite younger. I believe this is the best age to get steroids cause they are not tested yet at this age (or probably very rarely) while the steroid effect can last for a decade as mentioned in the article we posted a few weeks earlier.

When you think about it....At 16 already making a deal with the devil.....how sad!

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:35 pm

Tenez wrote:
luvsports! wrote:Wow! Coric is ripped. Scary. Just like Tipsy's roidy thighs.
You remember those.....Incredible...looked like disproportionate.

Just shows that nowadays we see a Coric....we are not impressed cause we are so used to seeing those pumped up athletes.

However Federer seemed quite impressed by Coric's frame and I think he knows perfectly what's going on.
Even I remember those, it was a disgusting photo, and what's worse he posted it himself as a show-off!

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:36 pm

Tenez wrote:funny picture of Coric...good find...he even has the zits of steroids users.
And a lot more hair, as well.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by DECIMA on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:37 pm

Is this a serious question ?? 
Nadal was a top notch player by age 18 (he won RG  literally just after he turned 19 I believe), meanwhile Coric won't be beating another top 10 player for the rest of the year. 
Tenez thanks for your video of Nadal vs Federer Miami 2005, good to see peak Federer in flow against a young pre-peak Nadal.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:38 pm

And let's not kid ourselves, a kid of that age having big guns, overpowering and outlasting many of his opponents is going to have a huge effect on his mental strength as well. He is going to forget quickly that this fitness is down to a few injections and start to believe that everything he does is thanks to his talent and hard work.

This is how nadal started to believe he coudl beat Federer, knowing that he would be able to break Federer's sharp game by sending him very powerful balls for as long as needed. Whereas when Nadal realise he had no energy left in Miami 05, he returned in his shell and lost the last 6 games in a row in the 5th set. Something he of course fixed by taking those 50s between points.

When one thinks about it, it is very sad the way tennis has been going since the open era....but certainly more so since Nadal's arrival.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:40 pm

luvsports! wrote:It says that was taken in 2013! He would have been just 16 maybe!
That is ridiculous for a 16 year old.
He seems to be very smug about his style of play although he knows what's involved. As if he's cracked a magic formula that can't fail.
It will be very interesting to see how far he goes and how much all "the work" pays off if conditions get faster.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by DECIMA on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:44 pm

What exactly has he done which is so great ? Beat Nadal with appendicitis ? Beat Murray when he's on a his pre-AO menstrual ??

He won't beat another top 10 player this year (unless they are injured or woefully off form), and I bet even Fognini will finish above him.
In 4-5 years time perhaps he will start knocking on the door of top 5 and get in the hunt for Grand Slam titles.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:45 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Tenez thanks for your video of Nadal vs Federer Miami 2005, good to see peak Federer in flow against a young pre-peak Nadal.

Did you post that clip? It is only showing Nadal's winning shots....it even cuts down before the end of the match as there is a 6 games on the trott for Fed.

Regarding your comment on Nadal v Coric, you clearly has no clue....as usual. You are as blind as the guy who compiled that clip above if you cannot see how much the game has moved in 10 years!

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:49 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:What exactly has he done which is so great ? Beat Nadal with appendicitis ? Beat Murray when he's on a his pre-AO menstrual ??

He won't beat another top 10 player this year (unless they are injured or woefully off form), and I bet even Fognini will finish above him.
In 4-5 years time perhaps he will start knocking on the door of top 5 and get in the hunt for Grand Slam titles.

What has he done? Being in the top 100 at his age has not been since a decade or so...because the game has gone so much more physical now. haven't read Djoko's interview again saying how much more physical and professional the game is since he joined the tour? Take you fan galsses and see it by yourself. Even your peak nadal is struggling nowadays as his 1D game becomes useless.

oh...and I forgot...he beat your man at 17 while your man was good enough to win the FO still!


Last edited by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:49 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Is this a serious question ?? 
Nadal was a top notch player by age 18 (he won RG  literally just after he turned 19 I believe), meanwhile Coric won't be beating another top 10 player for the rest of the year. 
Tenez thanks for your video of Nadal vs Federer Miami 2005, good to see peak Federer in flow against a young pre-peak Nadal.
Nadal, just like many "lucky" people happened to be in the right place at the right time.

You know he won his slams not because of tennis skill, but his exceptional fitness.
Now that others have caught up, even though he is in his peak physical years he can't even last a whole season.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by DECIMA on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:50 pm

Tenez wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:Tenez thanks for your video of Nadal vs Federer Miami 2005, good to see peak Federer in flow against a young pre-peak Nadal.

Did you post that clip? It is only showing Nadal's winning shots....it even cuts down before the end of the match as there is a 6 games on the trott for Fed.

Regarding your comment on Nadal v Coric, you clearly has no clue....as usual. You are as blind as the guy who compiled that clip above if you cannot see how much the game has moved in 10 years!
Hahah, no I didn't make the clip, I don't make Youtube videos and if I did, it wouldn't be on a match Nadal lost.
Nadal played great, considering he was a youngster up against Federer at his peak prime on hard court. How many games did Coric win off Federer the other week ? It was something pathetic wasn't it, like 2 or 3 games ??
I know you think Federer had improved, but surely even you can't think he's improved so much that he struggles against Nadal in the first 2 sets in 2005, but beats a better version of Nadal with the loss of 3 games.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by luvsports! on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:52 pm

Nadal did have a fh and a big one at that.
Here he is aged 17 vs Hewitt at Aus 04.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CvCxCnOC7Q

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by DECIMA on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:53 pm

Tenez wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:What exactly has he done which is so great ? Beat Nadal with appendicitis ? Beat Murray when he's on a his pre-AO menstrual ??

He won't beat another top 10 player this year (unless they are injured or woefully off form), and I bet even Fognini will finish above him.
In 4-5 years time perhaps he will start knocking on the door of top 5 and get in the hunt for Grand Slam titles.

What has he done? Being in the top 100 at his age has not been since a decade or so...because the game has gone so much more physical now. haven't read Djoko's interview again saying how much more physical and professional the game is since he joined the tour? Take you fan galsses and see it by yourself. Even your peak nadal is struggling nowadays as his 1D game becomes useless.

oh...and I forgot...he beat your man at 17  while your man was good enough to win the FO still!
OK, he's done well compared to other players of his generation, still not much though is it. Give him 4-5 years and perhaps we can see him really start to threaten.
Also I don't know why you keep talking about peak Nadal etc., I'm still not sure if this is a joke. You really think Nadal double faulting and hitting forehand halfway up the net and backhands into the crowd against Berlocq is peak ??

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:10 pm

luvsports! wrote:Nadal did have a fh and a big one at that.
Here he is aged 17 vs Hewitt at Aus 04.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CvCxCnOC7Q
That's an interesting clip that is again skewed.
Nadal stands on the baseline, muscles the FH and still loses in 3 sets to Hewitt.
If you didn't know the score you'd think it was Nadal that won.

If Nadal really had a good FH he wouldn't be playing so far behind the baseline.


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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:20 pm

luvsports! wrote:Nadal did have a fh and a big one at that.
Here he is aged 17 vs Hewitt at Aus 04.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CvCxCnOC7Q

Yes I know that clip...but that is not relevant as this is not the FH Nadal used to conquer the world. On that day, Toni perfectly knew that Nadal had not the stamina to outlast the best doper of the time. So Toni probably told him to go for it at the first occasion. So this clip is just a gathering of Nadal's winners without all the FH UEs that made him lose that match quite tamely.

Flagrant case selective shots clip.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:29 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
I know you think Federer had improved, but surely even you can't think he's improved so much that he struggles against Nadal in the first 2 sets in 2005, but beats a better version of Nadal with the loss of 3 games.

I am pretty convinced that Federer woudl beat Nadal 05 as easily as he beat Coric, especially with his new racquet.

10 years is a huge time.......look at tennis in 1994....you will see a world difference in fitness and baseline game game as well.

This Coric beat your man a few months after Nadal's "peak" year. What does that tell you?

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by DECIMA on Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:30 pm

Tenez wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:
I know you think Federer had improved, but surely even you can't think he's improved so much that he struggles against Nadal in the first 2 sets in 2005, but beats a better version of Nadal with the loss of 3 games.

I am pretty convinced that Federer woudl beat Nadal 05 as easily as he beat Coric, especially with his new racquet.

10 years is a huge time.......look at tennis in 1994....you will see a world difference in fitness and baseline game game as well.

This Coric beat your man a few months after Nadal's "peak" year. What does that tell you?
It tells me that appendicitis and playing tennis is not a good mix.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by DECIMA on Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:33 pm

And Tenez, even if you think Federer has improved since 2005, this is beyond ridiculous

If Coric at 18 is better than Nadal at 17/18, and Federer struggled twice in the first two sets of Miami 2004 and 2005- but beat Coric who's better than Nadal when he's 33 losing only 3 games??
Surely even you realise that Federer could not have improved that much. I actually think Federer was better in 2005 than he is now. But even if you think differently, surely you have some perspective to see his improvement could not have been so great ?

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:35 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:OK, he's done well compared to other players of his generation, still not much though is it. Give him 4-5 years and perhaps we can see him really start to threaten.
Also I don't know why you keep talking about peak Nadal etc., I'm still not sure if this is a joke. You really think Nadal double faulting and hitting forehand halfway up the net and backhands into the crowd against Berlocq is peak ??

You are always talking about the bad match as a reference. It;s like when nadal played Berrer earlier this year....Even Nadal's coach was saying that in the first set Nadal was playing as well as ever.....until he got tat physical slump in set 2 and 3.

Now don;t tell me that Nadal's team doesn;t know as well as you. It's not because nadal has a physical slump suddenly that his footwork and game is gone. Your reference about the DF is more of a joke.....no serve is declining at 28. That is one of the most ridiculous comment from you....ever.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:39 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:And Tenez, even if you think Federer has improved since 2005, this is beyond ridiculous

If Coric at 18 is better than Nadal at 17/18, and Federer struggled twice in the first two sets of Miami 2004 and 2005- but beat Coric who's better than Nadal when he's 33 losing only 3 games??
Surely even you realise that Federer could not have improved that much. I actually think Federer was better in 2005 than he is now. But even if you think differently, surely you have some perspective to see his improvement could not have been so great ?

Is this as ridiculous as "peak" Federer being beaten by 20yo Murray multiple times whereas "past" Federer almost double bagelled "peak" Murray just 4 months ago?

Think!

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:22 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:And Tenez, even if you think Federer has improved since 2005, this is beyond ridiculous

If Coric at 18 is better than Nadal at 17/18, and Federer struggled twice in the first two sets of Miami 2004 and 2005- but beat Coric who's better than Nadal when he's 33 losing only 3 games??
Surely even you realise that Federer could not have improved that much. I actually think Federer was better in 2005 than he is now. But even if you think differently, surely you have some perspective to see his improvement could not have been so great ?

What makes you say that?
Talk tennis.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by sphairistike on Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:54 pm

Tenez wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:And Tenez, even if you think Federer has improved since 2005, this is beyond ridiculous

If Coric at 18 is better than Nadal at 17/18, and Federer struggled twice in the first two sets of Miami 2004 and 2005- but beat Coric who's better than Nadal when he's 33 losing only 3 games??
Surely even you realise that Federer could not have improved that much. I actually think Federer was better in 2005 than he is now. But even if you think differently, surely you have some perspective to see his improvement could not have been so great ?

Is this as ridiculous as "peak" Federer being beaten by 20yo Murray multiple times whereas "past" Federer almost double bagelled "peak" Murray just 4 months ago?

Think!
This is asking a lot. Clearly all his comments on this thread shows he will always put his blind fan glasses on and not use his thinking brain instead...

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:09 am

Yes Sphair....not that I expected him to actually think objectively.....just cornering him once again....Each time I do he disappears. That's how I know he lost another battle. Winking

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by DECIMA on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:08 am

Who disappears ? *ahem* *cough*

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by DECIMA on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:11 am

Tenez wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:And Tenez, even if you think Federer has improved since 2005, this is beyond ridiculous

If Coric at 18 is better than Nadal at 17/18, and Federer struggled twice in the first two sets of Miami 2004 and 2005- but beat Coric who's better than Nadal when he's 33 losing only 3 games??
Surely even you realise that Federer could not have improved that much. I actually think Federer was better in 2005 than he is now. But even if you think differently, surely you have some perspective to see his improvement could not have been so great ?

Is this as ridiculous as "peak" Federer being beaten by 20yo Murray multiple times whereas "past" Federer almost double bagelled "peak" Murray just 4 months ago?

Think!
I think in general Federer has always dominated the biggest matches against Murray. Murray in 2014 was coming back from back surgery, and played really poorly against Federer in the WTF, while Roger was on fire.
Federer at his best is pretty close to his prime, but he plays his best less often, is more susceptible to awful performances, and also gets tired when made to play many days in a row.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by DECIMA on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:14 am

sphairistike wrote:
This is asking a lot. Clearly all his comments on this thread shows he will always put his blind fan glasses on and not use his thinking brain instead...
Oh I'm sorry, did I almost spot you actually making an argument there ?
Actually no worries, I can put my microscope away, there was no prospect of such a thing. Winking

I'm not thinking and not using my brain ? Are you kidding ?
For saying what, that Federer isn't miles better now aged 33 than he was in 2005 (as Tenez thinks) ? For saying that Nadal was better at 18 (basically Grand Slam champion at that age, entered French Open 2005 aged 18) than Coric, a world number 60 who gets beaten down by Chardy and rolled over by Troicki ?

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by DECIMA on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:20 am

Tenez wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:OK, he's done well compared to other players of his generation, still not much though is it. Give him 4-5 years and perhaps we can see him really start to threaten.
Also I don't know why you keep talking about peak Nadal etc., I'm still not sure if this is a joke. You really think Nadal double faulting and hitting forehand halfway up the net and backhands into the crowd against Berlocq is peak ??

You are always talking about the bad match as a reference. It;s like when nadal played Berrer earlier this year....Even Nadal's coach was saying that in the first set Nadal was playing as well as ever.....until he got tat physical slump in set 2 and 3.

Now don;t tell me that Nadal's team doesn;t know as well as you. It's not because nadal has a physical slump suddenly that his footwork and game is gone. Your reference about the DF is more of a joke.....no serve is declining at 28. That is one of the most ridiculous comment from you....ever.
You think Nadal physically lost it after playing a first set of 25 minutes with Michael Berrer (a set which had basically no long rallies) ?
I sometimes wonder if you actually watch these matches or just make up wacky theories to see how others respond as a prank.
Nadal after that first set, 2 games into the second saw his game collapse. It will happen more often as he gets older, he will get slightly worse and more prone to off-days.
Against Berrer, when his game collapsed, he was an unforced error machine, the crowd nearly had to get their umbrellas up because Nadal was targeting them with his wild shanks (even in rallies where he was under absolutely no pressure).

And his second serve has got a lot worse, what do you mean 'no serve is declining at 28'? Not all players fit your pre-held patterns. Since 2014 and this year, he double faults far more often, and his second serve is a lot lighter and weaker, with not much bite. He's clearly lost confidence on it, hence the Murray-style dolly 2nd serves and double faults.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:31 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
You think Nadal physically lost it after playing a first set of 25 minutes with Michael Berrer (a set which had basically no long rallies) ?
I sometimes wonder if you actually watch these matches or just make up wacky theories to see how others respond as a prank.
Nadal after that first set, 2 games into the second saw his game collapse. It will happen more often as he gets older, he will get slightly worse and more prone to off-days.
Against Berrer, when his game collapsed, he was an unforced error machine, the crowd nearly had to get their umbrellas up because Nadal was targeting them with his wild shanks (even in rallies where he was under absolutely no pressure).

And his second serve has got a lot worse, what do you mean 'no serve is declining at 28'? Not all players fit your pre-held patterns. Since 2014 and this year, he double faults far more often, and his second serve is a lot lighter and weaker, with not much bite. He's clearly lost confidence on it, hence the Murray-style dolly 2nd serves and double faults.  
Of course they do. It's universal knowledge timing gets better with age. Can't you tell the difference in Nadal's ball striking, how much better it is now compared to 10 years ago?

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:28 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:I think in general Federer has always dominated the biggest matches against Murray. Murray in 2014 was coming back from back surgery, and played really poorly against Federer in the WTF, while Roger was on fire.
Federer at his best is pretty close to his prime, but he plays his best less often, is more susceptible to awful performances, and also gets tired when made to play many days in a row.
The fact Kim is that in 10 years, Federer who was only used to play shot makers on fast surface in 2005 learnt how to play the moonballers and road runners. He has changed his FH, improved his BH and volleys and therefore times the ball much better now than then. This is what Murray, Djoko and Coric have found out recently.

Completely agree however that Federer is much more erratic in his results nowadays due to a bad back....but that is another problem.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:20 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
You think Nadal physically lost it after playing a first set of 25 minutes with Michael Berrer (a set which had basically no long rallies) ?
I sometimes wonder if you actually watch these matches or just make up wacky theories to see how others respond as a prank.
Nadal after that first set, 2 games into the second saw his game collapse. It will happen more often as he gets older, he will get slightly worse and more prone to off-days.
Against Berrer, when his game collapsed, he was an unforced error machine, the crowd nearly had to get their umbrellas up because Nadal was targeting them with his wild shanks (even in rallies where he was under absolutely no pressure).
who said otherwise? You are the one saying he declined...I am just saying something is going on with his fitness....nothing to do with age. Bad blood manip or else, I don't know but a bad match or or a poor start of the season is too early to draw conclusion. What I say however is that even if his fitness gets fixed, more people can adapt to his now than then.....and those very close matches he managed to pull through then will turn into losses now.

And his second serve has got a lot worse, what do you mean 'no serve is declining at 28'? Not all players fit your pre-held patterns. Since 2014 and this year, he double faults far more often, and his second serve is a lot lighter and weaker, with not much bite. He's clearly lost confidence on it, hence the Murray-style dolly 2nd serves and double faults.
More non-sense. Especially the second serve.....that's just a confidence issue.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:31 am

Nadal is in the state of mild panic, i.e. all over the place at the moment.
A man of routines, he needs time to settle (the more often he loses in the meantime the better.)
Once he gets his heels dug in clay, that's it.


I don't think he's far from his RG form now, however there are a lot of fit players that can sense his vulnerability and are able to take advantage if it, esp on hard courts.
Miami and IW will be very interesting (minus his draws, of course).

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by DECIMA on Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:40 pm

Tenez wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:
You think Nadal physically lost it after playing a first set of 25 minutes with Michael Berrer (a set which had basically no long rallies) ?
I sometimes wonder if you actually watch these matches or just make up wacky theories to see how others respond as a prank.
Nadal after that first set, 2 games into the second saw his game collapse. It will happen more often as he gets older, he will get slightly worse and more prone to off-days.
Against Berrer, when his game collapsed, he was an unforced error machine, the crowd nearly had to get their umbrellas up because Nadal was targeting them with his wild shanks (even in rallies where he was under absolutely no pressure).
who said otherwise? You are the one saying he declined...I am just saying something is going on with his fitness....nothing to do with age. Bad blood manip or else, I don't know but a bad match or or a poor start of the season is too early to draw conclusion. What I say however is that even if his fitness gets fixed, more people can adapt to his now than then.....and those very close matches he managed to pull through then will turn into losses now.
Nadal did not get tired after 25 minutes of a match with no long rallies against Berrer...
He did not lose because of stamina, but his game simply collapsed, he's getting older so as I said it will become more and more frequent.

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

Post by ... on Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:47 pm

How can a game collapse?
Especially the one as safe as Nadal's?

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Re: Coric 18 versus Nadal 18...who would win?

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