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OTF's GOAT Debate

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by DEC1M7 on Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:21 am

Tenez wrote:

Of course I disagree. I am even certain that injured Nadal was still fitter than fit Federer.
What ?
By 'fit' I am talking about not being injured.

Tenez wrote:
I am not aware of Nadal looking injured winning matches.
He has won many matches when injured, obviously when he is so injured he can't move or play you can't expect to him.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by BlueClay on Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:46 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Nadal has no chance of even reaching 15 Slams.

LOL. Is that some kind of jinx effort by a Nadal fan? You can't be serious with that statement. 100% he will reach 15 slams unless he is hit by lightning in a freak accident. I mean it is not even a discussion.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:25 am

Courier joins OTF's views Cool

"The amount of energy that Roger uses to hit a shot is way less than what used by Nadal when hitting his strokes. Federer interprets tennis as if it was a dance, a ballet on the court. Nadal instead, when he is playing, it looks as if he is battling. That sort of explains why the Spaniard will not enjoy the same longevity as Roger, even though we would all love to see Rafael competing when he is 33. Credit must be given to those who taught Roger to play that way. Currently Federer is fighting against time, and even though time has never been beaten, he is putting up quite a fight."

The only thing I disagree is the "Credit must be given who taught Roger to play that way"

No amount of teaching can produce Federer's level of coordination. It's a gift which I am very glad he looked after so well for us all to enjoy, though.
And yes, he is putting up quite some fight!

Also, just like his tennis, Courier not that elegant with words. I would never describe Federer's tennis as a dance or ballet. It's a flight.

It's good that a big tennis name finally mentioned the word "energy" to explain the difference in ball striking.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by DEC1M7 on Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:21 am

Courier also talking about 'fight against time'- which shows he agrees with the point of view you get worse as you get older. Anyway that is another debate.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by truffin1 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:11 pm




David Nalbandian on Roger Federer: ´He is the Greatest in Tennis´ History´

Tennis - David Nalbandian decides to make a write-up telling Roger Federer and how it feels like to play against the Swiss Maestro on a tennis court...

Roger Federer 27 Dec 2014 - 15:40 / by Ivan Pasquariello
Source: Canchallena.Com - tennisworlditalia.com

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Editor/Img/David-Nalbandian-Roger-Federer-img24818_668.jpg

David Nalbdandian sure knows what it must feel like playing against Roger Federer on a tennis court for bigger occasions. David and Roger became opponents officially in 2002, when the Argentine humiliated the Swiss on the red clay of Monte Carlo. Nalbiandian won that match losing just three games, but he already knew that he had beaten someone special, a champion in the making, possibly someone who was going to go far in tennis, knocking on the doors of the sport's history.

More than three years after playing the last official match against Federer on the tour, losing in straight sets at Wimbledon, David decided to gather his thoughts and put down on a paper what he thought about Roger and his tennis, what it felt like to share a court with the Swiss.

"He is a true champion. He is the best in history, no doubts about that. He demonstrated it on all surfaces. He has won everything. He only missed one thing, and now his name is written down on the Davis Cup as well. That really was one of the very few things Roger was missing in tennis. He keeps on playing incredible tennis, especially considering his age. Only now, that he is 33 years old, he is starting to face minor physical issues, but it's nothing too serious. That make him even more a great champion. It is very hard to compare him with other major sports' celebrities and champions, such as Maradona or Michael Jordan. I believe the confrontation to be impossible. Roger is the only one who played an individual sport, unlike the others. How can you compare them? Through talent, through results? You can't!"

"Some people got surprised by Roger's year, but I am not among those. To me, he keeps on playing basically the same way. The only difference is that before he used to succeed almost all the time, very easily, everything was just ordinary. Now he is slightly less consistent, but that's linked with the time passing by. I played against him for a long time, when we were younger. The match played in Shanghai's Masters in 2005, when I won, I remember it with pride because it led me to win the most prestigious title of my career. Regardless of the result, I had an incredible feeling. I shared the stage with the best of all time. Play against Roger always has an effect, it's unforgettable. What I lived and shared with him in tennis has been spectacular" finished David.

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/David-Nalbandian-on-Roger-Federer-He-is-the-Greatest-in-Tennis-History-articolo21708.html.1
QuoteReport

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by DEC1M7 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:46 pm


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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by truffin1 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:56 pm

Tony Roche predicting Fed can compete another 4-5 years and is most talented player ever

:“I think he can play as long as he wants to on the mental side. Physically, I think he can play for another four-five years without any problem,” said Roche who has coached the likes of Federer, Ivan Lendl, Lleyton Hewitt and Patrick Rafter.

“Another Slam definitely,” he added. “Obviously, Wimbledon is his best chance but he’s knocking on the door in last few Slams. As long as the guys still respect Roger, he is always going to be a threat.

“Roger is the most talented player to ever play the game. Working with Roger was a little bit different. I introduced Roger to harder practice sessions to not only rely on his talent but to put in the hard work. We worked a lot on his second serves and volleys.




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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by DEC1M7 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:06 pm

I don't think he'll be challenging for slams in 4-5 years, he may be playing though who knows.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by Tenez on Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:10 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

I am stunned by some of the answers.

Murray: Nadal's best FH!!!!??? It would not make the top 20! If he had a great FH he would be unbeatable.

Djoko has certainly not the best BH either. Murray for one is better but Nishi has by far a better BH than both nowadays.


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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:17 pm

Having seen most of current EBHs live, I'd definitely choose Nole's one as it's got most versatility.

Nishi is a wonderful, natural ball-striker, and that's unfortunately about it.
His game is good but quite mechanical and not that creative, a top end of Boletieri range kind of thing. It comes in waves he is not able to sustain for long periods like Federer.
Watching him in WTF against Nole, you could see he'd be deadly in fast conditions.
Fognini's DBH is very similar, a real beauty!

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:30 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

From memory this was Kimmy's response to Truffin's GOAT claiming post that cited some former top players.

The above clip was probably from 2013.
The question was also not who is the best player , but the toughest one to beat.

We (as well as the players interviewed in that clip) all know why Nadal is tough to beat - sheer physicality.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by Tenez on Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:41 pm

Even Berrer has a better FH than Nadal!

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:14 pm

Tenez wrote:Even Berrer has a better FH than Nadal!

You're right!
Just saw the scores, Berrer a set and a break up, got to find the stream asap!

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by DEC1M7 on Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:17 pm

Nadal is still a tier 1 GOAT, yes his career is basically over now; but what he's achieved already given his injury issues is remarkable.

Also Berrer's forehand is not better than Nadal's, please.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:05 am

How can you explain a 34yo being half as fit as Nadal beating a peak Nadal?

Nadal is a one trick poney with no plan B. Must be tough to be his fan.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by DEC1M7 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:08 am

Tenez wrote:
Must be tough to be his fan.
Its been incredible being a Nadal fan; tough at times yes... but that has made the good times more special.


Tenez wrote:
How can you explain a 34yo being half as fit as Nadal beating a peak Nadal?
Nadal is at the end of his career, not peaking, injuries have taken their toll.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:05 pm

no - injuries are not the reason. he was still moving faster and hitting the ball harder than Berrer.

Problem is Nadal is a poor ball striker and needs to be twice as strong and fast than the opposition. berrer looked like a slug compared to nadal yet his shots were simply better.

And what do you make of nadal poorly cheating again in that last game?

He was a point away from winning that match thanks to his usual gamesmanship.

That's what you can't see! too much of a fan.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by DEC1M7 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:23 pm

Just because Nadal at the end of his career lost one match to Berrer does not make Berrer a better ball striker.
All the other matches they have played, Nadal has won easily.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:33 pm

Just because Nadal won his previous two matches against Berrer doesn't mean he is a better ball-striker.
He is simply physically superior.
Good ball-strikers take the ball early and use minimal physical strength.
That's why Nole is better than Nadal.

On the other hand, Nole beat Nishi many times, but Nishi is a superior ball-striker.


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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:00 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Just because Nadal at the end of his career lost one match to Berrer does not make Berrer a better ball striker.
All the other matches they have played, Nadal has won easily.
I woudl agree in principle. Except that Nadal lost still being fitter than a 34yo Berrer. Those kind of losses have to be explained. And as his coach said, Nadal was moving very well.

Tennis is a very physical sport nowadays, if you cannot win despite being much fitter than the opposition, it shows a clear difference in talent and skills. I cannot see a 34yo Nadal beating a world number one or 3 in 2021!!!

Those are facts and questions you cannot face.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by DEC1M7 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:09 pm

But this sort of match is not the norm, in the context of Nadal's whole career defeats like these are rare.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by DEC1M7 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:10 pm

You always ask 'what can we learn from this' straight after Nadal loses, but never ask the same question after Nadal wins.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:58 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:But this sort of match is not the norm, in the context of Nadal's whole career defeats like these are rare.
Of course it i not the norm. But along his career 99% of Nadal's losses were handed to him by players being even less fit than him.

I notice you are not arguing the point that Berrer was much less fitter than Nadal. At least you admit that Nadal is beaten by a physicallly weaker player in a era where physique is everything. How do you explain that?

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:59 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:You always ask 'what can we learn from this' straight after Nadal loses, but never ask the same question after Nadal wins.

We know why Nadal wins. I think I made that very clear many times..

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by DEC1M7 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:01 pm

Tenez wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:You always ask 'what can we learn from this' straight after Nadal loses, but never ask the same question after Nadal wins.

We know why Nadal wins. I think I made that very clear many times..
http://ourtennisforum.forumotion.co.uk/t786-if-you-re-mindset-is-such-that-all-possible-outcomes-would-be-registered-by-you-as-evidence-for-one-specific-theory-it-s-not-evidence-at-all

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:36 pm

Ball-striking is poorly understood by many.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:39 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Ball-striking is poorly understood by many.
Or they don't want to.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by luvsports! on Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:10 pm

But also hard to exactly explain what it is.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:09 pm

luvsports! wrote:But also hard to exactly explain what it is.

Not really, it's quite easy.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by luvsports! on Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:59 pm

Some would say it's hard to discern between big hitters and shot makers. I remember tenez and Lydian and they said it's not a big difference and said themselves it's not easy to give a definitive answer.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:38 pm

I don't know exactly what you mean by big-hitters or shot-makers, I wouldn't use either of those to describe ball-striking.

In my opinion and experience there are two/three main elements in ball-striking:
hand to eye coordination (i.e. talent, stg that can't be taught or bought, and that's the main one)
Practice/technique

Racquet techonolgy has been changing technique, swing and as a result - the game itself.
There is so much to it: the strings, strings pattern, racquet weight, grip, length of the swing and speed of the arm, involvment of wrist...all those come together into a shot.
The more talent you have, the cleaner your ball-striking will be, it's a beautiful, effortless feel on the racquet when the ball hits the sweetspot and leaves the strings really fast - look no further than Nishi & Fed, also Dolgo to a large extent.
Part of their ballspeed is just the ability to control the ball on the rise and send it back with interest.
Serve is also a very good indicator: variation, sound of it.
Speed is their king and main weapon is taking away time from opponents.

Until recently, I have wrongly assumed that a lot of top players are talented, but in fact exceptional hand to eye coordinarion is rare.

Most players are fairly coordinted, but behind their bullets are years of daily grind, repetition and practice.
The more talent that comes into that grind - the better the player, more confidence and more attacking...eg Stan, Delpo etc.

Slow conditions have unfortunately messed everything up and blurred the distinction which is why so many people are confused.

Less talented players have more time on the shot and can keep the ball in play - depending on their level of fitness or the opponent, they can all last and make a  match out of it. So many are nothing more than ball-musclers now.
Spin rules, because spin is safe.
In these slow conditins, it's almost possible to manufacture players - that's what Bolietieri Academy has been doing - great, soulless ball-striking machines which only react to opponent and rarely create.

Naturally, tennis has become big business, so you can't blame them...look at what Spain have produced...

It's quite a big and fascinating topic that has become my hobby - I love observing how players strike the ball from close up and have seen most of the current crop.

Nadal is the opposite end of the spectrum where all the elements of talent (timing and coordination) are reduced to a minimum.
What he does is very hard, but only from a physical point of view...and I would say inhuman.
The sheer energy that goes into every ine of those crazy whips..when the ball is dying down on its curve...he is resurrecting it back into insane life!
Only someone who has never tried to play can say his ball-striking is dope-free.
But that's how he was taught from day one, and it's been (allowed to be) very efficient and successful.

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by luvsports! on Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:30 pm

Was Blake a good ball striker? Gonzalez?

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Re: OTF's GOAT Debate

Post by Tenez on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:12 am

luvsports! wrote:Some would say it's hard to discern between big hitters and shot makers. I remember tenez and Lydian and they said it's not a big difference and said themselves it's not easy to give a definitive answer.
Can't remember that discussion.

I'd say a big hitter is typically a tall player able to hit hard thanks to the higher margins provided by the help of the tall size.

A shot maker is one who places the ball away from his opponent based on anticipation, taking the ball early and using thin margins.

The latter is more of a great ball striker than the big hitters, though a big hitter can also be a good ball striker/shot maker.

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