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Sigh... I've Seen This Little Trick Before

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Post by Daniel Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:46 am

http://www.606v2.com/t56385-defamation-a-quick-bit-of-research

I've seen this trick deployed by moderators and admins numerous times.  And it's always the same story.  Claim that there is a need for draconian rules because without them you may be prosecuted (the chances of that are slim to none, even if you said the most illegal thing possible), and then proceed to use the new rules to curtail discussions you personally don't like.  Not because of any legality issues, but because you don't agree with the opposing opinions.

There is an awful lot of naivety out there as to what constitutes defamation of character, and libel.  Let me tell you the facts of where the LAW is currently at:

You CANNOT BE PROSECUTED FOR ANY OPINION ON ANOTHER as long as it clear that it is your opinion.  In other words,

"I think Nadal is a total liar"

Is NOT and HAS NEVER BEEN illegal.  The only time you will ever have even the remotest chance of being held accountable for a statement is when you present an opinion as a fact, and are then taken to task over it (which as I stated, is rare in itself, and almost always the domain of national newspapers.  Certainly not poxy forums like 606v2).

If you do state a fact, such as stating Nadal cheats, you must provide evidence.  There is clear evidence from what Nadal said in his autobiography that he abused the rules, and thus, he can be called a cheat as a factual argument, if you make that argument.  You cannot be prosecuted for that because you are using evidence, and it would be up to the police charging you (not going to happen) and then being found guilty of libel (even less likely).

Basically, the forum above has come up with the same bag of tricks that every shit, closed-minded moderator/admin comes up with when it doesn't like a dissenting voice- Changing the rules and outlawing free speech.  These new rules will be applied mainly to anyone voicing anything negative about Nadal (since he is overwhelmingly the one breaking the rules and making self-serving comments in the media), and we can all see that [in fact, as the first post states, that is what has already happened].


People are sadly often taken in by this smoke and mirror tactic, but if you are a member over there, I would be happy if you copied and pasted this message in a PM for me.  So that everyone is aware that these rules are a nonsense, and are just a typical ploy to protect Nadal and his fans from the truth.

Dan


Last edited by FedererKing on Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by N2D2L Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:19 am

Bear in mind that this thread from the moderator was used to delete my thread on Moet's advert on the Daily Telegraph.
Also note that Julius provided a list of words from the link which could potentially get a forum sued, and that included: 'corrupt' 'incompetent' 'lazy' etc.
With that in the back of your mind, perhaps this post from me makes a bit more sense:
Me wrote:Have you tried to find examples of people using the word incompetent, I seem to vaguely recall it being used and I'm really worried now.

(Just perhaps to give you a clue... I was not actually very worried at all.) Seems that you missed my irony FK.

Anyway I must say, despite the fact I don't agree with many things FK says; he's absolutely right here. Julius seemingly totally misunderstood the defamation laws and his reporting was very misleading.
I write for a sports website, and before we started there we had to read up quite a lot and quite closely on defamation laws.
The idea opinions on people or companies such as 'lazy' 'unethical' 'ethically corrupt' 'incompetent' could be liable to legal scrutiny is beyond laughable.
There's something called 'fair comment' and a right to a 'honest opinion'. You do not even have to prove your opinion is convincing, you just have to show you presented it as an opinion and it was honestly yours.

Calling Federer lazy, calling Nadal a cheat, calling Murray unethical etc. etc. these are in no way against the law. If I claim as a fact that someone broke the law when I have no evidence, then that may bring legal trouble (although let's be honest, no one is going to sue a tennis forum).

I would have bought this up on the thread itself, but it would have just caused chaos; but yes, FK is spot on here about the law.

FedererKing wrote:So that everyone is aware that these rules are a nonsense, and are just a typical ploy to protect Nadal and his fans from the truth.
Just to clarify, this was used as an excuse to delete my thread. The other thread that was deleted was DV2's but I would have preferred it if it had stayed up, his argument was in tatters anyway as he had totally mistranslated the Spanish and got confused thinking Nadal's treatment would take place in Italy, and his claims about stem cells were indeed inaccurate as I showed on Wikipedia. (Embryonic stem cells are banned in some Christian countries due to concerns by religious groups about these embryonic stem cells having 'souls'- but iPS stem cells are not banned anywhere. Nadal was using iPS stem cells).

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Post by N2D2L Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:26 am

I suppose I can see why FK reached the conclusion he did, I'll post my responses on that thread here, and you can reach your own conclusions ! Winking
(either I was hugely sucking up to Julius, or subtly making a point of his total lack of understanding about libel laws and exaggerated sense of likelihood of a tennis foreign being sued)

My posts:
Ah apologies, I didn't realise calling something ethically corrupt could get the site sued.
Julius wrote:Calling someone dishonest, corrupt, hypocritical, lazy, incompetent, criminal, unfaithful, or financially troubled.
I will be very careful not to mention any of these words, and if I see anyone else use them will immediately report it to both moderators and admins.
I have bookmarked this thread from Julius, and those adjectives listed by Julius from the link, for when anyone tries to attack a player. I don't want to see 606v2 get sued.
Yes but that is if the sting is an inference (i.e. it's inferred a player is 'dishonest' 'lazy' 'ethically corrupt' etc.). If these words are used out in the open, you don't even have to read between the lines to see where defamation laws could leave us.
Have you tried to find examples of people using the word incompetent, I seem to vaguely recall it being used and I'm really worried now.
JuliusHMarx wrote:
How worried on a scale of 1 to 10?
I just don't want 606v2 to go down, that's all

So what do you think, was Federer King's unnecessarily rude comment about me a great observation, or did he miss something: Winking
FedererKing wrote:...not least because the biggest Rafa fangirl is jumping up and down wetting her knickers over there in support for these new rules. THAT should tell you everything.

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Post by Daniel Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:35 am

Truth is, these rules are designed for, and favour, NADAL FANS.

If you were being sarcastic over there, then ok.  But I don't see that in a few of those posts. Why agree with it all if you don't??
But at least you concede these "rules" are a big joke.

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Post by Tenez Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:31 am

That's the good thing about this site.....we can speak our minds on players without having to worry cause we are just expressing opinions....as long as we stay courteous with each others!

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Post by noleisthebest Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:14 am

Truth is beautiful and liberating, but with it we need to be wise as serpents and peaceful as doves.

It is great to have OTF.

There are virtually no other places to talk freely.
After many years, I have stopped posting on tennis.com as they kept deleting virtually anything I said.

Scary and sad.

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Post by Daniel Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:17 am

If I misjudged " Kim Jong-Un"  on their posts at 606v2, then I apologize, but looking through there is no way to tell what they mean or do not mean, so really it isn't my fault if they have been misjudged.

Anyway, the basics are that these rules are total nonsense which will be used to justify silencing anyone who disagrees with the mods. I've seen it a ton of times, and one time it happened at a forum I was a big member of.  I had to leave because it became clear the "libel" rule was being used and abused to shut up any discussions the moderation team did not like.  In the end, you couldn't even criticize other players in any shape or form. 


Then a new "respect" rule was brought in.

Farce.

Who watches the watchers?

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Post by N2D2L Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:20 pm

FedererKing wrote:If I misjudged " Kim Jong-Un"  on their posts at 606v2, then I apologize, but looking through there is no way to tell what they mean or do not mean, so really it isn't my fault if they have been misjudged.
Yes I can't blame you for your misjudgement, as I was using pretty heavy sarcasm, but you didn't need to be so unnecessarily rude.

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Post by N2D2L Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:31 pm

The timing of Julius's 'defamation thread' is no coincidence- he was looking for a reason to delete my thread.

He used a technique I call 'false equivalency'.
Now to make it clear I didn't want any thread to be deleted. My thread because, well, it's my thread. And I didn't want DV2's thread to go either, I like debating with people of different opinions in general, and to add onto that in this thread I was convincingly winning the argument (not that it was too difficult to do this as he had mistranslated an article from Spanish).

But if we were paranoid enough to think the police and legal teams are watching over 606v2, the idea that what I said would get the sort of legal scrutiny as what DV2 said is laughable.
I wrote an amusing article about Moet & Chandon putting an advert in a newspaper, and in the context I called it ethically corrupt. I specifically made clear that I was not accusing them of doing something illegal. DV2 on the other hand mistranslated an article, and said Nadal was having a treatment in Italy which was illegal. This was factually incorrect on both grounds, he was having it in Spain and I showed from Wikipedia (and I could have used hundreds of links to back me up), that iPS stem cell treatment is legal everywhere.

So even if lawyers did scroll onto v2, they would potentially have a case on DV2's article because he accused someone of doing something illegal when that was not the case; however they would laugh if someone told them saying something is 'ethically corrupt' or 'unethical' or 'manipulative' was against defamation laws.
I think Julius could not manage to come up with any counter points to my thread so was desperate to see it deleted somehow. When DV2's article which was potentially defamatory (but let's be honest... the chance of v2 getting sued was 0.001% anyway) appeared, he found an excuse; lumped both our articles in the same boat- and then deleted both of them.
Why else would he leave my thread for days, and then suddenly come to the realisation it broke defamation laws as soon as DV2's thread appeared ?

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Post by Daniel Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:40 pm

I'd (and most people) would find it easier not to be rude to you, if you weren't continually trolling Federer fans and trying to argue ridiculously that Nadal is even Fed's league.  Of course, you are entitled to your views, as long as it isn't trolling.  I get the feeling that a lot of your posts are just deliberate WUMming.

I am not sure what your other thread was doing, but I think we can both agree that using trumped up rules to delete it is a joke.

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Post by N2D2L Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:48 pm

FedererKing wrote:I'd (and most people) would find it easier not to be rude to you, if you weren't continually trolling Federer fans and trying to argue ridiculously that Nadal is even Fed's league. 
I do think Nadal is in Federer's league, as is Sampras, Borg, and Laver too. That is my honest opinion, I'm not just saying that for effect.

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Post by Tenez Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:04 am

I also do thing Nadal is very much in Fed's league......W can't deny that H2H.....However Nadal without PrP, Steroids and stem cells would never have taken a single set, let alone match of federer.

That's a fact his fans will not see. Nadal without this extraordinary fitness would not make the top 50. Actually I think not even the top 100.


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Post by Daniel Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:18 am

He isn't in Fed's league for many reasons, but the main one is this:

Aus Open 1-4
Wimb 2-7
US Open 2-5
ATP Finals 0-6

It's that simple, and until that changes, he can never be mentioned in the same breath as Federer.  And that's despite modern conditions and everything else favouring Nadal.  H2H has nothing to do with anything, and if it did, then Nadal needs to explain 1-6 to Davy on HC, or perhaps losing to Rank 100s three times in a row at the greatest of all tournaments.

The above statistics are not just numbers, they are the greatest achievement tennis has ever seen.

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Post by Tenez Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:28 am

Beating Federer more than twice as many times than Fed beat him is a great achievement, especially since some of those were in slams finals.

If it was not for suspicious fitness in an era of rampant doping everywhere, I would be in awe of Nadal performance...(except for his on court cheating as well actually). But nowadays I do not believe in superhuman physical performance. They are simply the result of science. Whereas superhuman talent a la Federer is simply down to the man.

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Post by Daniel Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:45 am

It isn't that great compared to all other achievements, and certainly not when most of those came on Fed's weakest and Nadal's strongest surface (Nadal only met Federer on grass 3 times).  At the end, only the titles will matter, and Nadal is not close as an all round player.

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Post by N2D2L Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:59 am

I don't doubt Federer is statistically superior to Nadal if you take aggregate (Nadal is higher if you take average win percentage per match). But despite this, Federer is certainly statistically superior.
But in the top tier, I still have Federer in there with Nadal and a few others. Comparing Nadal and Federer themselves, there are a few factors why they're in the same league despite Fed having better stats.
Anyway that is a debate for another thread, I respect people's opinion if they think Federer is the greatest, but I also reserve the right to disagree.

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Post by noleisthebest Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:09 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
FedererKing wrote:I'd (and most people) would find it easier not to be rude to you, if you weren't continually trolling Federer fans and trying to argue ridiculously that Nadal is even Fed's league. 
I do think Nadal is in Federer's league, as is Sampras, Borg, and Laver too. That is my honest opinion, I'm not just saying that for effect.
I'd get Sampras out of that group and replace him with Nole.
Enough of Yank brainwashing & propaganda...

Also, I'd draw the line with Laver and his generation, despite the fact he was competing in open era; compared with today's cut-throat tour and the sheer volume of the pool of players, Laver's era should not even enter any conversation involving comparisons or "lists".

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Post by noleisthebest Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:16 am

Tenez wrote:Beating Federer more than twice as many times than Fed beat him is a great achievement, especially since some of those were in slams finals.

If it was not for suspicious fitness in an era of rampant doping everywhere, I would be in awe of Nadal performance...(except for his on court cheating as well actually). But nowadays I do not believe in superhuman physical performance. They are simply the result of science. Whereas superhuman talent a la Federer is simply down to the man.

Which aspect of his performance?

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Post by luvsports! Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:06 pm

No way is Djoko in that top echelon.

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Post by Tenez Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:28 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:Beating Federer more than twice as many times than Fed beat him is a great achievement, especially since some of those were in slams finals.

If it was not for suspicious fitness in an era of rampant doping everywhere, I would be in awe of Nadal performance...(except for his on court cheating as well actually). But nowadays I do not believe in superhuman physical performance. They are simply the result of science. Whereas superhuman talent a la Federer is simply down to the man.

Which aspect of his performance?
Just the physical one...It's impressive tp have so much energy.....unless you understand where it comes from.

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Post by Daniel Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:55 pm

luvsports! wrote:No way is Djoko in that top echelon.

The only players that really make it are Fed, Laver, Borg, Sampras and maybe Mcenroe.

Nadal isn't there either.

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Post by N2D2L Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:10 pm

FedererKing wrote:
luvsports! wrote:No way is Djoko in that top echelon.

The only players that really make it are Fed, Laver, Borg, Sampras and maybe Mcenroe.

Nadal isn't there either.
Easy to just include the players who you like Winking

If someone wants, start a thread up on this.

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Post by Tenez Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:50 pm

To me there is Fed, Pancho, Laver and Borg.

Mcenroe with 7 certainly cannot make it. he had one great year....not enough!

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Post by Daniel Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:18 pm

http://www.606v2.com/t56457p50-the-final-world-tour-finals-final-thread

Also, I do want you all to be aware of this...

Notice that none of these anti Fed posts are being removed, and in fact, the moderators are laughing it off as a joke.  But anything even close to this aimed at Nadal is stamped out immediately (and most of the time, the guy actually earns the criticism).

It couldn't be clearer the bias and disgusting arseholes that exists on that forum, could it?  It's the number one problem with forums... partisan moderators.

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