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ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

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Who Is Going To Win WTF 2014?

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:41 pm

noleisthebest wrote:And the clarification of the reason for withdrawal:

"I am sorry to announce that I cannot play the finals tonight vs. Novak. I hurt my back late in the match yesterday against Stan . I am very disappointed and I hope to be feeling better soon.
It’s been an extremely difficult decision because I love playing in London and the ATP World Tour Finals have been an absolute highlight of my career. Unfortunately, my back problem does not allow me to play right now. I hope all tennis fans and those involved in the event will understand."


I wonder if it happened when he made that eerie sound after hitting one backhand.

Real shame. I still can't believe it happened.
I know it's only a tennis match, but it really feels like somebody died.

he says he did it towards the end but the fact is he was playing average if not badly from the first point.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:43 pm

NOOOOOOOO  Wah Wah Wah headhurts headhurts

This is disaster for a Fed and Stan-fan

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by summerblues on Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:44 pm

Tenez wrote:It's so annoying to see the back problem is still around.
The back problem will never go away fully.  He has had back issues his entire career, they just gotten worse as he is getting older.  The only hope is it can be managed reasonably well.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by summerblues on Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:46 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:NOOOOOOOO  Wah Wah Wah headhurts headhurts

This is disaster for a Fed and Stan-fan
Yeah, pretty bad overall.  Why was Fed trying so hard until the last point if he knew he might not be in shape to play today anyway?  Hopefully he skips the Indian exho tour and gets himself back in shape for next year.  I would even say skip DC but I am sure he will not do that.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:48 pm

summerblues wrote:What a disappointing end to this WTF.

In three days, Fed went from almost double bageling Andy to barely scraping by Stan to being unable to play at all.

That's always been the case since 2012. Struggling in Madrid's final, FO and Wimbledon first rounds and then winning Wimbledon. Crushing Djoko in Cincy's final and then losing tamely v Berdych.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Daniel on Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:52 pm

"At my age it would've been a risk."

I hope we can put the age nonsense to bed now.  Clearly, he is coming to an end fitness wise.  This is the first time I can remember Federer withdrawing... let alone in this fashion.  He seemed up for it yesterday, but he's getting too old for brutal 3 setters before finals.

It's a shame now that Stan didn't win....  Sad  What a disappointment.  All credit to Fed for coming out and apologizing.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Daniel on Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:54 pm

noleisthebest wrote:

Real shame. I still can't believe it happened.
I know it's only a tennis match, but it really feels like somebody died.

I can assure you it doesn't.  A mate of mine died the other week, and this isn't even close.
Also, "Julia/Kim", I find your comments over on 606v2 contemptible.  Though, I don't really rate you highly to begin with.  We aren't talking about a player in their prime pulling out of half the tour, and having a ton of inury excuses.  We are talking about a 33 year old with a chronic back problem who is injured.  The reason Nadal is singled out is because he is a scum bag, on and off the court. 

This is only the second time (?) in Fed's career that he has pulled out.  And he did everything he could not to.  He even apologized in person.  What more could he do?  Play and be beaten 6-0 6-0, and then have to pull out for 3 months with a severe back injury?

Wake up. 

We all knew you and that weirdo Socal would be out in full force to knock a player who has the best consistency and sustained fitness in living memory. Nadal's withdrawals and issues are like 50x greater than Federer's, and he isn't even 32.  Let's see what old Mumm-Ra is doing when he is, eh?


Last edited by FedererKing on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:05 pm

FedererKing wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:

Real shame. I still can't believe it happened.
I know it's only a tennis match, but it really feels like somebody died.

I can assure you it doesn't.  A mate of mine died the other week, and this isn't even close.

To me it does. It's a metaphor.

We have all lost someone dear.
Somebody dies every minute. A mate, a mother, a child...
Death is universal, grief is personal.


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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by truffin1 on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:07 pm

Well, there we go- looks like ljubi and the fans at practice were right and fed was having issues. Too much of a coincidence that they noticed it before the match for him to be telling the truth it happened during the match, though he prob tweaked it.
I hope he is sacrificing the final in hopes that he can be ready for dc. It really would be a shame after this great year that the back robs him of one title he doesn't have.

I also hope this means he lessons the ridiculous off season expo schedule he had planned.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Daniel on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:08 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
FedererKing wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:

Real shame. I still can't believe it happened.
I know it's only a tennis match, but it really feels like somebody died.

I can assure you it doesn't.  A mate of mine died the other week, and this isn't even close.

To me it does. It's a metaphor.

We have all lost someone dear.
Somebody dies every minute. A mate, a mother, a child...
Death is universal, grief is personal.


Well, I'm telling you flat out that a death is not the same as this.  And if you think it is, you need help. Get some perspective!  My mate died the other week, and what you just wrote makes me want to thump you in the face.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:20 pm

summerblues wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:NOOOOOOOO  Wah Wah Wah headhurts headhurts

This is disaster for a Fed and Stan-fan
Yeah, pretty bad overall.  Why was Fed trying so hard until the last point if he knew he might not be in shape to play today anyway?  Hopefully he skips the Indian exho tour and gets himself back in shape for next year.  I would even say skip DC but I am sure he will not do that.

I don't think exos are a problem...they are nowhere near as taxing as proper matches, plus he gets to play for fun and fans and time is running out even for that.
Wise not to worsen the back which must be so stiff & tired after last night...it must have felt bad this morning when it all cooled down...

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:30 pm

FedererKing wrote:
"At my age it would've been a risk."

I hope we can put the age nonsense to bed now.  Clearly, he is coming to an end fitness wise.  This is the first time I can remember Federer withdrawing... let alone in this fashion.  He seemed up for it yesterday, but he's getting too old for brutal 3 setters before finals.

It's a shame now that Stan didn't win....  Sad  What a disappointment.  All credit to Fed for coming out and apologizing.
Are you saying this to Murray?

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:35 pm

truffin1 wrote:Well, there we go- looks like ljubi and the fans at practice were right and fed was having issues. Too much of a coincidence that they noticed it before the match for him to be telling the truth it happened during the match, though he prob tweaked it.
I hope he is sacrificing the final in hopes that he can be ready for dc. It really would be a shame after this great year that the back robs him of one title he doesn't have.

I also hope this means he lessons the ridiculous off season expo schedule he had planned.
I doubt he would do that. What a terrible thing for the crowd and as we know he is very professional and woudl have tried his best to play had he could. Like he only mentions the back hurt at the end of the match not to upset Stan..but to me he arrived on court quite average.


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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:38 pm

FedererKing wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
FedererKing wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:

Real shame. I still can't believe it happened.
I know it's only a tennis match, but it really feels like somebody died.

I can assure you it doesn't.  A mate of mine died the other week, and this isn't even close.

To me it does. It's a metaphor.

We have all lost someone dear.
Somebody dies every minute. A mate, a mother, a child...
Death is universal, grief is personal.


Well, I'm telling you flat out that a death is not the same as this.  And if you think it is, you need help. Get some perspective!  My mate died the other week, and what you just wrote makes me want to thump you in the face.
FK - Another post like that and you are out. Don;t complain about mods elsewhere to behave like a kid here. It;s not the first time you have been out of order. Here there is no mod cause we are all grown up. So if you keep being aggressive like that, it's the end of it.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:46 pm

The full interview:

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Daniel on Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:28 pm

Tenez wrote:
FedererKing wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
FedererKing wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:

Real shame. I still can't believe it happened.
I know it's only a tennis match, but it really feels like somebody died.

I can assure you it doesn't.  A mate of mine died the other week, and this isn't even close.

To me it does. It's a metaphor.

We have all lost someone dear.
Somebody dies every minute. A mate, a mother, a child...
Death is universal, grief is personal.


Well, I'm telling you flat out that a death is not the same as this.  And if you think it is, you need help. Get some perspective!  My mate died the other week, and what you just wrote makes me want to thump you in the face.
FK - Another post like that and you are out. Don;t complain about mods elsewhere to behave like a kid here. It;s not the first time you have been out of order. Here there is no mod cause we are all grown up. So if you keep being aggressive like that, it's the end of it.

It's all right since I made up my mind not to bother contributing here that often a long time ago.  I can safely add you to the list of partisan mods.  You're only annoyed because you got the age thing totally wrong, and I criticize your friend, who thinks death is the same as a tennis match withdrawal.  You don't need to remove me, I'm  not posting here again.  You're as bad as the lot on 606v2. Frankly, I think your knowledge of tennis is limited at best.  But Federer has answered your age question for you.

Don't expect me back.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by truffin1 on Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:38 pm

Tenez wrote:
truffin1 wrote:Well, there we go- looks like ljubi and the fans at practice were right and fed was having issues. Too much of a coincidence that they noticed it before the match for him to be telling the truth it happened during the match, though he prob tweaked it.
I hope he is sacrificing the final in hopes that he can be ready for dc. It really would be a shame after this great year that the back robs him of one title he doesn't have.

I also hope this means he lessons the ridiculous off season expo schedule he had planned.
I doubt he would do that. What a terrible thing for the crowd and as we know he is very professional and woudl have tried his best to play had he could. Like he only mentions the back hurt at the end of the match not to upset Stan..but to me he arrived on court quite average.


He definitely arrived at the match with the bad back. Ljubicic and multiple fans on the Fed forum said Fed was clearly stiff and bothered at his prematch practice. They were speculating and talk about it constantly during the match last night.    

I, myself, after a month of no back spasm's- woke up this morning stiff and has to put an ice pack on the back after sitting at Church.   It comes out of nowhere.

I don't think Fed is just tanking this final to get ready for DC..   I think it more like common sense after what happened at IW last year.  He hurt himself at the end of the match in the 3rd round.  Then played Stan in a similar match to last night in which Fed was clearly hurting...fought like hell to win it knowing Nadal was waitng there. Not wanting to withdraw he took the beating from Nadal and ripped up the back further, and was not the same for nearly rest of the year.  He has an important tourney in a week.  He has a team and nation to play for.  As he clearly says in his interview- he's not fit to play at any level today but he thinks its a spasm that will go away.  Why go out and rip himself up like he did against Nadal and make it so the spasm won't go away. This just is the right thing to do.. fans waitng or not.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:06 pm

yes. back pain can come any time unfortunately, well for me with cool and humid weather.......looks like too. He should try stem cells! Winking

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:27 pm

If I may join the geriatric backche discussion, as a former sufferer, it is not that difficult to  manage it, incl. spasms.
Main thing is to keep it warm esp during cold weather.
Tip number one: tie a top around the waist (I usually take off  my tracksuit warm-up top after 5 minutes and use that).
The real problem begins with sudden movements, especially stretching for shots...but if the core is strong, it all goes back to normal within a few days just with hot baths and neurofens...for speedier recovery...yes, you've guessed: it's the hula-hoop!

Fed did the right thing, why risk further damage, look what 2013 brought him...(and us!)

I can understand him wanting to win so badly last night.
When the body is warm, you have no idea how much you are going to pay & suffer when it cools down...
So long as you know your body and where to draw the line between pain and damage.
I am glad Fed's finally learnt it!

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:27 am

Just saw this comment on tennis.com, and it sums things up quite neatly:

"So much discussion around a straightforward issue:

- Fed injured his back in the 3rd set breaker. If you watch it closely, you see it happening clearly!

- Fed is an amazing athlete. As we know, if your back goes, it's over. He probably couldn't even run yesterday!

- As much as I rooted for him, Stan has only himself to blame. He had 4 MPs and lost. Plus he had his chance vs. Novak and won just 3 games!

- Fed will not be 100% by the weekend, especially on clay. France are the clear favourites.

- Don't know what the ATP was thinking by scheduling the second semifinal at 8pm local time, with the final the next day....not saying an earlier scheduling would have helped, but playing in a cold indoor venue approaching midnight doesn't help the body!

- Don't know what the ref was thinking on the terrible overrule at the start of the third. Otherwise, Fed may have cruised in that third and we would have had the competitive final.

So bottom line: tennis is a tough sport, you do get injured and when you do, it's game over. The ATP didn't help the situation (scheduling and with the ref overrule)."

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:08 pm

Good points....except for the first one. Fed was not well before the match and it got worst during the 3 set match v Stan.

And the court/ball pace is in my view much more to blame than the schedule. This is the reason we had plenty of crap one sided matches. The surface is simply too slpow and gives way too much advantage to the good movers over the shot makers.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:30 pm

Tenez wrote:Good points....except for the first one. Fed was not well before the match and it got worst during the 3 set match v Stan.

I agree.
I said so in my long post on Fed, anyway. He played like the "old" 2013 Fed. No way Stan would have made the match so competitive otherwise.

Still, he was fit to play and unfortunately made his back worse.
There was one long rally he put everything in, I was watching him from so close, the fight he put up in it was beautiful beyond words.
The match was a growing physical struggle for him from start to finish.
It's a testament to what a first class competitor he is, as good as his hand to eye coordination is, his mind and spirit are just as brilliant.
I am so glad I went and witnessed it, it was very special.
Tenez wrote:
And the court/ball pace is in my view much more to blame than the schedule. This is the reason we had plenty of crap one sided matches. The surface is simply too slpow and gives way too much advantage to the good movers over the shot makers.

The court was slow, but it's always been like that in O2.
It favours Nole, no doubt about it. Stan, too.
Interestingly, Nadal was never able to take advantage, which is great.
Still, a fresh Fed would have given him a match for sure and I regret it didn't happen.

Personally, I'd like to see carpet there next year (though chances are zero)...after all it's the best 8 players in the world, so let the skill shine fully for once in the entire year!
It  seems 2015 may be the last year WTF's in London.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:09 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
The court was slow, but it's always been like that in O2.
The surface might have been the same but the balls were particularly slow. Not sure why (cool conds?), and that made it terribly slow. Slower than ever. And we just need one player to expose the problem of a surface. Put a fast surface with small balls and Karlo will show us how wrong the conds are. here Nole just moves too well and that gives him the possiblity to play better shots than he would on a faster surface.

In my club they have repainted the hard courts 6 weeks ago or so and that made the surfaces much slower and the ball checks up much more. before repainting I coudl take on all the roadrunners of my club (despite the courts being slow already) but i could simply hit through them. Since being painted, I simply have lost 4 matches 60 and a few 61 to players I was beating just 2 months ago, before the courts were repainted. very simple. The ball checking up means I cannot inject pace as I take the ball early, the court is so slow that they are everywhere, And I am condemned to rally with 30yo who simply can bring most of the balls back in court. It has been a very learning experience. They don;t need to do much, just bring the ball bach and after the 3rd should-be-winner i make an UE. One of them is terribly fit, so fast is amazing and I served him a couple of bagels last summer on grass and won 2 sets to one on HC. So I go from winning 60 to losing 60 down to conds.

All that to say the one sidedness of the results simply exposed how slow were the conds, here like in Paris! Hopefully they will do someting about it.


It favours Nole, no doubt about it. Stan, too.
Can't see why. he is such an average movers with usually big shots.

Interestingly, Nadal was never able to take advantage, which is great.
he came pretty close but he had to face guys who coudl run with him (Muuray and Djoko) and arrived tired in finals. PLus of course the lower bounce taking most of his teeth away.

Personally, I'd like to see carpet there next year, after all it's the best 8 players in the world, so let the skill shine fully once in the entire year!
It  seems 2015 may be the last year WTF's in London.
Pretty sure it will be Fed's last too. I can;t see him compete at 35...unless for sponsors money, which is not to be sniffed at!

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:38 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
The court was slow, but it's always been like that in O2.
It favours Nole, no doubt about it. Stan, too.
Can't see why. he is such an average movers with usually big shots.
O2 is slow just enough to give Stan a chance against anyone except Nole and fit Federer, despite him not being a light-footed player.
On top of that, Stan has improved his mobility considerably in the last two years.
Tenez wrote:
The surface might have been the same but the balls were particularly slow. Not sure why (cool conds?), and that made it terribly slow. Slower than ever. And we just need one player to expose the problem of a surface. Put a fast surface with small balls and Karlo will show us how wrong the conds are. here Nole just moves too well and that gives him the possiblity to play better shots than he would on a faster surface.

In my club they have repainted the hard courts 6 weeks ago or so and that made the surfaces much slower and the ball checks up much more. before repainting I coudl take on all the roadrunners of my club (despite the courts being slow already) but i could simply hit through them. Since being painted, I simply have lost 4 matches 60 and a few 61 to players I was beating just 2 months ago, before the courts were repainted. very simple. The ball checking up means I cannot inject pace as I take the ball early, the court is so slow that they are everywhere, And I am condemned to rally with 30yo who simply can bring most of the balls back in court. It has been a very learning experience. They don;t need to do much, just bring the ball bach and after the 3rd should-be-winner i make an UE. One of them is terribly fit, so fast is amazing and I served him a couple of bagels last summer on grass and won 2 sets to one on HC. So I go from winning 60 to losing 60 down to conds.

All that to say the one sidedness of the results simply exposed how slow were the conds, here like in Paris! Hopefully they will do someting about it.

Sad to hear about your club...same in mine, probably even worse. We have a huge geriatric power base and all they care about is their unfit, tripping bodies getting injured.
As a result they voted to get some super bouncy and soft surface (£120K for 3 courts!!!), and the current one is some porous mesh, already slow and bouncy, just like the other concrete courts.
It's painful to play properly there, just sedated, uncreative lullaby.
I'd love artificial clay, but apparently people couldn't  be bothered to smooth clay between sets when the club did have it years ago.

On Saturday, I watched two fast players: Fed and Nishi, and Nishi managed to take off and play his game for one set, even his, simple baseline making the opponent run one.
But Fed couldn't, he was heavy and depleted.
Ultimately, the year(s) of having to run and hit more on slow courts is what kills both the game and players.
Especially players like Fed.
I don't know whether it's more draining mentally or physically.
That's why I am in awe of him still taking it on, but it's heart-breaking at the same time.

Only a year or two left of him, they'd better do something about it.

Chris Kermode alluded how Nadal has frequently put pressure on him wanting WTF on clay.
Being a former Queens boss, I hope he has enough love of tennis inside him (as well as guts) to change something properly next year.
AO could be a good start.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:45 pm

I know WTF 2015 has been a disaster, but at least something good may come of it.
Just like ATP started enforcing 25 second serve rule after AO 2012 final, so they may do stg about courts/balls after the latest WTF fiasco.

The more time passes, the more Federer's withdrawal from such a high profile final caused by slow conditions related injury, should send all the alarm bells ringing, esp as we have the long off-season coming...plenty of time to think!

If not now, then....when?

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:13 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
The court was slow, but it's always been like that in O2.
It favours Nole, no doubt about it. Stan, too.
Can't see why. he is such an average movers with usually big shots.
O2 is slow just enough to give Stan a chance against anyone except Nole and fit Federer, despite him not being a light-footed player.
Only because the 2 he won against are big frames with even worse mouvement.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:11 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
The court was slow, but it's always been like that in O2.
The surface might have been the same but the balls were particularly slow. Not sure why (cool conds?) and that made it terribly slow. Slower than ever. And we just need one player to expose the problem of a surface. Put a fast surface with small balls and Karlo will show us how wrong the conds are. here Nole just moves too well and that gives him the possiblity to play better shots than he would on a faster surface.
see him compete at 35...unless for sponsors money, which is not to be sniffed at!
That's it!
This year O2 has been considerably cooler than any year before!
I know as I had to keep my jacket and hat in, esp during the evening session.
I've been going there every year since 2009, and it's always been very warm, you could easily sit in a sleeveless top, not this time!
There was a lot of draft, although it did get a bit warmer towards the end of the match, probably through sheer amount of people in the arena.
Also, I don't know whether I'm imagining it, but the balls did look quite big, too.
Plus, the surface is so rough, they must fluff up pretty fast.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:15 pm

yep...not sure what it was but it looked very slow.

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Re: ATP MASTERS: World Tour Finals, London 2014

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