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Masters - Masters 1000: Toronto - Page 2 Empty Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Daniel Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:43 pm

Meanwhile Nadal just shirks his responsibility and claims an injury.

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Post by summerblues Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:27 pm

FedererKing wrote:Age ruins consistency.  People are seeing Federer play one shot of old and then making the mistake that this is what he did in his prime.
Exactly. Consistency is perhaps the first important thing that goes with age. Even now, Fed playing at his very best is not that far off where he used to be. But he is less and less able to produce his very best.

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Post by summerblues Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:30 pm

noleisthebest wrote:That's 2 SBH left in the draw, very exciting!
LOL. That is mean smiley

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Post by noleisthebest Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:40 pm

I think people don't appreciate the way game has changed, hence the view that Fed was better when he was younger.

Many more balls are coming back now. Safe, spinny ones. It drains the life out of an attacker, blunts the blade and exhausts the momentum which is essential for that style of play.

That's all it is.

A whole new generation of players have arrived that can keep the ball longer in play with percentage tennis, they are fitter and can last in that mode...so it's really tough to win regularly by playing attacking tennis.


Fed is better now, I am 100% sure of that. Give him another 6 months of uninterrupted good health, and he'll get back to his flying best, maybe even this USO.

Despite all the slowness of courts/balls etc that for an attacker is like having to play with a chain&ball around his leg.

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Post by noleisthebest Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:48 pm

Tsonga breaks through Dimi's defence at last!
Serving for the set, love that big FH when it's on!

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Post by Daniel Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:52 pm

Even if he won the US Open, it would pale in comparison against 2004-7 where he won 3 slams a year and reached the French Open final.  He was THAT good.  Now he isn't.

You see the lack of consistency v age in every single sport with 2 notable exceptions, O'Sullivan in snooker and Taylor in darts.  But even those are not physical, and they are the ONLY exceptions.

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Post by noleisthebest Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:03 pm

I don't follow snooker so can't comment on it, but I disagree that players lose consistency in "every sport".
I tried to explain why I think that's the case the best I could, so nothing more to add on the topic, so I'll leave it at that.

My final comment is that results are not a measure of a player's quality in this era.

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Post by noleisthebest Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:04 pm

summerblues wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:That's 2 SBH left in the draw, very exciting!
LOL.  That is mean smiley
Actually, that was a typo, but in hindsight a really good one! Cool 

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Post by Daniel Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:05 pm

OK, so by that statement, presumably you believe Nadal and Djokovic are far better players than Federer?  And have improved exponentially in the last 7 or so years?

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Post by noleisthebest Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:12 pm

FedererKing wrote:OK, so by that statement, presumably you believe Nadal and Djokovic are far better players than Federer?  And have improved exponentially in the last 7 or so years?
Ansolutely.
The whole tour keeps moving on. Players keep improving their timing, adding different shots, footwork, serve variation...not to mention stamina and match experience.

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Post by noleisthebest Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:13 pm

In the meantime, Tsonga has taken off! diva

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Post by summerblues Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:36 pm

Nitb, the rate at which players would have to be improving would have to be immemse - they would have to be improving at a rate hardly ever seen in major sports.

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Post by noleisthebest Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:37 pm

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean.

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Post by Daniel Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:38 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
FedererKing wrote:OK, so by that statement, presumably you believe Nadal and Djokovic are far better players than Federer?  And have improved exponentially in the last 7 or so years?
Ansolutely.
The whole tour keeps moving on. Players keep improving their timing, adding different shots, footwork, serve variation...not to mention stamina and match experience.

And yet Djok lost in 2012 to Fed, and Nadal has lost before QF to Rank 100s 3 times on the trot at Wimbledon.

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Post by noleisthebest Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:42 pm

FK,
unlike you, I don't look at the results when I assess the quality of a player.

Tennis is in a very unnatural unhealthy stage of its evolution atm. How else can you explain the fact Nadal has 14/15 slams...
To many, he is a great warrior with a mighty forehand, even a GOAT! Not to me. Not even if he won 50 slams.

On top of that, players often lose matches because of an injury, bad scheduling etc...

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Post by noleisthebest Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:49 pm

I even think Fed is staying in pro tennis playing his game just to prove his point.
I think it's fantastic and I'd love to see him win another slam.

But he'll need to get his FH going for that, and confidence plays a large part there. Winning Toronto would be a good start in that direction.
If he gets consistency in his health, there's no reason why the rest won't follow.

That's it from me on the topic!  tennisball 

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Post by Daniel Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:19 pm

noleisthebest wrote:FK,
unlike you, I don't look at the results when I assess the quality of a player.

Tennis is in a very unnatural unhealthy stage of its evolution atm. How else can you explain the fact Nadal has 14/15 slams...
To many, he is a great warrior with a mighty forehand, even a GOAT! Not to me. Not even if he won 50 slams.

On top of that, players often lose matches because of an injury, bad scheduling etc...

It is unfair to compare results with a 30 year gap, perhaps.  But to say 7 years has made the difference you are suggesting is literally and totally impossible.  And the more rational explanation is that Federer being 33 is the reason he wins FAR less these days.  I think being 33 is a better explanation than the whole tour becoming Superman.  Humans have limits.  Even in running, which is far more one-track-minded, the boundaries of top speeds get pushed by little bits at a time, and sometimes go unchallenged for DECADES.  The olympic record for long jump was set in the SIXTIES.

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:41 am

summerblues wrote:
FedererKing wrote:Age ruins consistency.  People are seeing Federer play one shot of old and then making the mistake that this is what he did in his prime.
Exactly.  Consistency is perhaps the first important thing that goes with age.  Even now, Fed playing at his very best is not that far off where he used to be.  But he is less and less able to produce his very best.

Interesting that you 2 throw this subject in again, now that Fed is again in a final.....the second final in a row....Not bad the consistency hey?

Anyway, your are both wrong. Well half wrong. I have always said that with age recovery was tougher, that I do not deny. And probably worse for him than anybody as I suspect he does not want to take dodgy substances.

However where you are both wrong is that the best of Federer is actually better than what you think was Federer's best years. Federer back then was losing to younger versions of Nadal, Djoko and Murray. With those 3 largely improved Federer is still in the mix able to beat them cause he learnt how play them. Before he was trying to hit his way past them and could only do that on a good day. Now he will give them a hard time (losing or winning) despite them having largely improved....


And the proof in the pudding is that he still cuts through the rest of the field with the same ease then than now, Like at Wimby or here, and that despite the field being much stronger (look at all the players of his age are nowhere to be seen, except Ferrer whom the conds change favoured).


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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:53 am

FK, study those links and see that Federer was not having it that easy losing to guys like Folandri, Canas (twice cause he was probably retrieving too many balls like the upcoming roadrunners).

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx?t=pa&y=2007&m=s&e=0#

The best of Federer was still losing sets to Ferrer, Robredo (1/6 even), etc....

And 2006 more telling even.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx?t=pa&y=2007&m=s&e=0#


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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:12 am

I think his best display of tennis mastery were atcually were 2009, 2010 and 2011....2012 would not have been bad had he been injured.

He certainly dominated more in 2006/7 bit that because one he was facing players who brought nothing new (bar Nadal) and more importantly cause the conds suited him better then (HCs were still fast).

I am not sure I have seen a more consistent display of tennis in London WTF 2010 when he creams all the top players in a way he coudl not even do in 2006/2007 against young Djoko/Nadal and Murray. So clearly his peak is at least 2010....

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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:24 am

I find this bigger frame phase of Federer's career quite interesting and look forward to him taking off with it, mainly with the FH.
I'd like to see him play fast again. I hope it's doable.

I haven't watched any of his Toronto matches bar one game in the first round, so tonight's final should be really good as he won't be having to play a grinder.

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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:28 am

Tenez wrote:I think his best display of tennis mastery were atcually were 2009, 2010 and 2011....2012 would not have been bad had he been injured.

He certainly dominated more in 2006/7 bit that because one he was facing players who brought nothing new (bar Nadal) and more importantly cause the conds suited him better then (HCs were still fast).

I am not sure I have seen a more consistent display of tennis in London WTF 2010 when he creams all the top players in a way he coudl not even do in 2006/2007 against young Djoko/Nadal and Murray. So clearly his peak is at least 2010....

I thought FO 2011 SF and Wimbledon 2012 final were superb. Although physically demanding, the road-running era has drawn a lot of artistry out of Federer.

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:39 am

noleisthebest wrote:I thought FO 2011 SF and Wimbledon 2012 final were superb. Although physically demanding, the road-running era has drawn a lot of artistry out of Federer.

Yes in the best of 3s....but as the match drags on it's so hard to produce.

I'd say he knows better what he needs to do against them.

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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:51 am

Yes, unfortunately the best of 5 is now rewarding muscle,  so physically exhausting it's impossible to pace oneself...unless you are Nadal.

Who was it that said during this year's RG Nadal is not worried if he loses a set of two as he knows he'll still be fine in the end.

That's why it's essential that Federer can play fast again despite the conds.
He did it in Monte Carlo against Nole in the first set and it looked really good.

Very tough to pull off, but I think he loves the challenge.

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Post by luvsports! Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:18 pm

I agree to an extent with both sides here, but for me some stuff is missing from feds.
He doesn't move as well therefore he cannot hit some shots he used to as he is half a step slower. That makes a big difference from being in a position of offence to neutral to neutral to defence.
He doesn't move as well to his right anymore and I never really see him hit scorching inside out forehands as he did so often back in the past.

For me he is past his best.

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:27 pm

Are you talking about now LS or 2009/10/11/12?

In 2007 his FH changed dramatically. He realised he also had to add for more spin cause flat out hitting was not working very often against the new players.

You cannot compare a time when Federer was playing in faster, low bounce conds, against players who would hit flat (Blake/Nalby, etc..) with slow conds and heavy topspinning.

Federer had to adapt his game...and that was extremely difficult as as he was single Handed and his main strength (FH) needed to adapt to new player and new conds.

Did not he says recently when asked whether his game was better or worse than his hey days:
"of course I hope I have improved with all the hard work I put in, otherwise all this hard work woudl be in vain and now it's paying off"....something like that.

What is bizarre though is that it is visible in the naked eye that he plays better now than in 2007.....in those slower conds.

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:41 pm

Look at Wimby 2007 (before he was "too old" according to FK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1isfZhjpt1k

Very loopy already and Nadal is there on the ball sending the ball back. Already then he takes Federer out of his comfort zone....but then Nadal, Djoko and all the others improved considerably in the next 3 years....Had Federer been playing like Wimby 2007....he would have not won it in 2012. That's for sure!

And look how he looks slow in that 4th set!

But what is even more telling in that 5th set is that when Nadal hits the wall and loses one step, Then Federer opens up and win as easily as in the good old days. This is why some are wrong to think it's all down to Federer. His opposition now is very different than the pre-2007 era et he had no choice but adapt.

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Post by luvsports! Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:09 pm

So you don't think being slower is important? It impacts him massively imo.

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:19 pm

luvsports! wrote:So you don't think being slower is important? It impacts him massively imo.
I could easily ask you a similar question:

So you don't think Djoko, Murray and Nadal have improved in 7 years, since 2007?


I don;t think Fed lost as much as pace as you say. You can see in that Wimby 07 4th set how Fed loses a step there, like he loses a big one in AO 09's 5th set. It does not mean that his footwork cannot be brilliant before and after those dips.

But still answer that question above!

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Post by luvsports! Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:44 pm

Oh I do think that, but I still think that feds is not as good now.

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:58 pm

luvsports! wrote:Oh I do think that, but I still think that feds is not as good now.

So how do you explain some of his losses then and some of his wins now versus those very players?

If he was better then and they were also worse ...how come he struggled then already? It's important to back arguments with results/facts!

in 2007 Federer just about wins a 3 setter versus 20yo Djoko at the USO (he had lost to him 2 weeks before even). Federer coudl have lost that USO07 in 3 as easily had Djoko had a bit more experience. It was "fast USO" too.....not like now with those big balls.

If you look at 100m record holders, they might lose 2 10th of a second over 100m from 30 to 32. In fact some got their best time at 32 even. Do you really think you can spot those 2 10th of a second over 100m? good luck.

If Fed moves 10m in the court, he'd lose 2 100th of a second from 30 to 32 (based on the 100m possible loss of speed)! Can you spot that?

The day Federer loses a step his ranking slides by 100. So far he is getting closer to being number 2 again!

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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:09 pm

I was specifically watching Fed's footwork during Wimbledon and it was immaculate, I really don't think he has lost anything.

If he was able to dismantle Raonic in 3 sets on grass, there can be no talk of any slowing down.

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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:31 pm

I also think it's a shame Fed didn't do the two big changes a few years ago (use the bigger racquet and hire Edberg).
Not to mention the bad timing of 2013 back injury. That's 2-3 years he could have already been on top of the current game.

He is doing exceptionally well to have caught up and have such good results this year.
I feel it's all going to come together very soon.

I just don't understand these commentators who brainwash people with the "ageing" talk.
It's either their sheer stupidity or professional jealousy.

Again, those who are not are all gagged and can't say a word about what's the problem is.
Henman mentioned it a a few times without going into details, of course.

Nobody cares Sad

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Post by luvsports! Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:57 pm

Also if you look at the guys other than the top guys feds has lost against, it simply doesn't compare imo.
In 2 years he loses to 5 players ('05-'06). nadal, gasquet, nalbandian & safin, murray.

'10-'12 baghdatis, montanes, davydenko, soderling, hewitt, monfils, melzer, isner, roddick, haas losing to guys like these other than the top guys.

My point is its just the consistency has dropped therefore I think he is not as good now.

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:29 pm

luvsports! wrote:Also if you look at the guys other than the top guys feds has lost against, it simply doesn't compare imo.
In 2 years he loses to 5 players ('05-'06). nadal, gasquet, nalbandian & safin, murray.

What do you mean by also? Yu have not responded on the questions?

That domination says more about the opposition than Federer. Would he lose to Gasquet, Nalby and Safin today? However he already lost to very young nadal. If he loses tonight will it be him not being as good as then or maybe Tsonga being suddenly better? Have Djoko and Murray aged over Tsonga too? Cause Djoko and Murray used to beat him if I remember.

Tennis is not a one man race....there is an opposition working very hard to beat the guys at the top and it's a very lucrative business.

'10-'12 baghdatis, montanes, davydenko, soderling, hewitt, monfils, melzer, isner, roddick, haas losing to guys like these other than the top guys.


yes I remember you mentioned back then that he was old and slow...yet he thrashed everybody twice in WTF and won Wimbledon 2012. And did not Federer mention a back injury? Is injury and age the same thing?

My point is its just the consistency has dropped therefore I think he is not as good now.

But the sport being much more physical now,  of course Federer was going to be less consistent. More so that now you cannot a win match with a 2 shot rally like he used to do in 2005. Now he needs to run like mad for 3 or 5 sets! One serve and one FH and the job was done. Now no one can do that anymore. It does not work.  Not even Djoko and Nadal are consistent nowadays....imagine Federer who is not built like them and has always had a poor 5 set record. Of course he is not going to fight for all his matches and tournaments. I bet he will lose he will lose in the first 2 rounds in Cincy....like he used to do already in 2006/7 btw. . That is clear.

But that's not my point. My point is that he woudl have close to no chance against the top guys on today slow conds had he stuck with his 2005/006 game. whereas nowadays he is still in the mix.

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:51 pm

Delusional Dimitrov:

Q. How did you feel today? How do you think he (Tsonga) played?
GRIGOR DIMITROV: You know, it's not an easy loss for me considering that I had played such a good match yesterday.

Kevin must feel even worse about his choking after reading this.

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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:27 pm

I saw his full interview the other day....all cliches in broken American English.
Doesn't come across as the brightest button...

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:37 pm

noleisthebest wrote:I saw his full interview the other day....all cliches in broken American English.
Doesn't come across as the brightest button...
A good match for Sharapova then.

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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:48 pm

Tenez wrote:But that's not my point. My point is that he woudl have close to no chance against the top guys on today slow conds had he stuck with his 2005/006 game. whereas nowadays he is still in the mix.

Yes, that's the crux of the matter.
Somehow, there is a stumbling block that not everyone sees top (and other) players improved, how that changes not just their own but the game in general as well.
I can write a full history of Nole's improvements over the years. Nole 2014 would bagel his own 2007 self.
Also, I think some think Fed's back is part of his age as wear and tear, which it is not.

I think most posters here have played sport though and should have an understanding of the role of all kinds of injury: eg even an apparently tiny injury such as a bruised palm from a fall is very annoying as a player can't grip the racquet for a few days, but they play through those and lose matches as a result.


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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:53 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:I saw his full interview the other day....all cliches in broken American English.
Doesn't come across as the brightest button...
A good match for Sharapova then.
That's what I thought, too  Winking
Mr Sharapova suits Dimi better than baby Fed.

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:03 pm

Right let's see how the old man moves today. As I said, the recovery is tough at this age so in that respect he is going to have a a few tough games before his body warms up.

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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:05 pm

I look forward to seeing his FH in full flight. diva

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Post by paulcz Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:06 pm

Hi all, still I am not sure who I will root for in a while. But fortunately is going to be tennis to watch, so no bothering by that  Winking  
I hope that the final will be quite thrilling and exciting match and expect the better server is going to take the win.

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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:08 pm

I do like Tsonga but it's Fed for me. No brainer!
I also like Tsonga's new "boxing" post match celebration.

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Post by paulcz Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:26 pm

noleisthebest wrote:I do like Tsonga but it's Fed for me. No brainer!

I like Jo-Wi a vivid and spontaneous performance and also he had much tougher draw. On the other hand Fed had a birthday a couple days ago, so I hope a better player is going to take it.

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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:38 pm

I hope everyone's taking notice of Fed's footwork....esp when he was running around his BH...beauty!

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:50 pm

noleisthebest wrote:I hope everyone's taking notice of Fed's footwork....esp when he was running around his BH...beauty!
I did!

I have a crap video link though!!!!

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Post by Tenez Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:56 pm

Such a frustrating link! During play I have one picture every 10s and at changing ends I have a nice flow.  Grr 

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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:59 pm

Mine's perfect!
TennisTV.
Fed just loses the set...Grr
He lost a few points moving a step into the court after his serve for charging, but then Tsonga returned deep and sent him on the back foot.


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Post by noleisthebest Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:08 pm

Tenez wrote:Such a frustrating link! During play I have one picture every 10s and at changing ends I have a nice flow.  Grr 
Check your inbox.

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