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Masters 1000: Toronto

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:10 pm

Beautiful half volley from Fed. McEnroe must be furiously jealous!

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:18 pm

federer is not playing but Tsonga is really playing close to the line this week and that makes a huge difference.

Also important to note that federer is not used to the day conds....that's a bit unfair for him!

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:19 pm

Fed is so loose and relaxed, it's incredible!

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:22 pm

Tenez wrote:federer is not playing but Tsonga is really playing close to the line this week and that makes a huge difference.

Also important to note that federer is not used to the day conds....that's a bit unfair for him!

Yes, his timing has been affected esp on all those FHs that clipped the tape.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:22 pm

On this surface Fed needs to retrieve his Pre 2007 FH. He topspins too much for such a pacy flat shot from Tsonga.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:27 pm

It's great tennis...from both....Fed is playing amazing at the net.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:35 pm

Tenez wrote:It's great tennis...from both....Fed is playing amazing at the net.
I know!
S&V on the 2nd serve...that's some statement!
But really, the match is on Fed's racquet, Tsonga's merely been a solid guy on the other side. He has returned well, though.
You are right about the FH, Fed's giving Tsonga too much time on some of them esp those CC ones.
Still, great hold for 4:4.


Last edited by noleisthebest on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:36 pm

Tsonga plays extremelly well. Not that gracious but so aggressive and movong amazing well. No surprised he dismissed Djoko and Murray!

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:47 pm

Yes, he has cut out irrationality out if his game, seems to be thinking clearly, but basically winning this match exclusively from the baseline.
It's unusual for him.

Another heart-stopping hold from Fed.   

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:54 pm

Wow!
What a DHDTL for 6:6 from Fed!!!!  Magic 

Just as I was feeling sad he was playing it cautiously.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by luvsports! on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:58 pm

GSM Tsonga Sad

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:01 pm

yes, I woudl have like to see more of it. Federer was not playing great....I had no confidence in his shots.

It's a bit ridiculous to make him play at night the whole week and then ask him to play in the middle of the day.

That plus probably the fact that TMS are not great for him....too many matches in a row.

But glad for Tsonga! He shoudl be back in the top 10.....and this week he played like world number 1!

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:03 pm

Nooooooo!!!!!   Cry

But happy for Tsonga at the same time, really happy for him.

And again....nooooooooooo Wah

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:06 pm

So long as FK doesn't start telling us Fed lost because he is old Winking

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by luvsports! on Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:11 pm

37 errors from feds Sad

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by luvsports! on Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:12 pm

Haha but surely we would have heard the same from you if feds had won no? Winking

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:21 pm

Not in a million years.

I did say he's game with the new racquet and Edberg is still work in progress and needs a bit more time esp his FH.
That shot let him down in Wimbledon final, too. I don't know why he is so cautious with it, but still expect him to fix it soon. I can only ascribe it to the new frame.

All you say is he is slower which he clearly isn't.

It's just that his game needs a bit of time to take off.
He played so many brilliant shots tonight, real, beautiful tennis.

So incredibly loose in every shot...that is so special.

Obviously there were elements that were not great and a big part of it he never played any day matches.

When you play a great server like Tsonga, all those things make a difference.

He should've put the foot down with the organisers but maybe he didn't expect the "new", calm Tsonga and thought he could beat him anyway.


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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:26 pm

luvsports! wrote:37 errors from feds Sad

Yes, amd I'd say at least half of those came from with different daytime playing conditions.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by paulcz on Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:37 pm

Congratulations to Jo-Wi, that was an important win for him  Thumbs Up  Bubbly  and also thanks to Fed for such a great match.

That was one of  exceptional Fed's matches when his opponent's serve made him look average on the court. From that point everything derived and that was even when Jo-Wi  1st serve % dropped to 30% in the first set. Fed was rattled  after every serve from Jo-Wi and quite struggled with the 2nd serve on return.

Deserved win for Jo-Wi Magic

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:38 pm

fed was clearly out of timing. A lot of his FH were wide cause he was hitting too late....due essentially to Tsonga pace of shots.

I still fancies Fed to turn things around as he'd got used to the pace. ....but it went too quickly.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:55 pm

Yes it did go so quickly.
There were some crazy points and shots.
There was one where Fed hit two CC FHs, one from the middle almost outside the tramlines, amazing what he's capable of.
He also had a really good stretch of S&V-ing, it was so exciting to watch.
That's what'll stay with me from this match: Tsonga's happines and a couple of Fed's extra-terrestrial shots.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by summerblues on Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:20 am

I did not see today's match nor any of Tsonga's matches all week, but he must have been playing quite well given the impressive results he had. So good for him.

Still, I was hoping Fed could win it. I am hoping - quite possibly on vain - that he can somehow sneak in a few more weeks at #1 somewhere and this week was a great opportunity to win 1000 points, which would have helped the cause. Still, certainly not a catastrophic week for him.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:43 am

T, Nitb,
    Can you try to explain which all areas of Feds game have become better than what they were in 2004-07? I have tried but all I can see that in almost every aspect of his game, he was way better that time. Can you explain some here.

Recovery with age is one think, but that's what it means too when one says that Player lose their edge as they age. If recovery is his biggest problem, how do u explain his sudden losses

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:19 am

noleisthebest wrote:Not in a million years.

I did say he's game with the new racquet and Edberg is still work in progress and needs a bit more time esp his FH.
That shot let him down in Wimbledon final, too. I don't know why he is so cautious with it, but still expect him to fix it soon. I can only ascribe it to the new frame.

All you say is he is slower which he clearly isn't.

It's just that his game needs a bit of time to take off.
He played so many brilliant shots tonight, real, beautiful tennis.

So incredibly loose in every shot...that is so special.

Obviously there were elements that were not great and a big part of it he never played any day matches.

When you play a great server like Tsonga, all those things make a difference.

He should've put the foot down with the organisers but maybe he didn't expect the "new", calm Tsonga and thought he could beat him anyway.


Oh come on now..Fed is so very slow in comparison to his young days.. His return reflexes are slower, haven't you seen how poor his returning have become in comparison? Yesterday was another example, Tsonga was having a great serving day.. true but Fed didn't have enough even on the 2nd serves. In fact this entire tournament and even wimbledon, his returning have been about average. 

Compare this with how easily he could retun 145mph Roddick's serves. Or see how well he returns against Karlovic who is perhaps the best server tennis has ever seen. Fed has played great servers before, he has played sudden day matches after all night matches before too..but slowly his returning have declined with time. Its easy to see it, unless you want to deny the obvious. He has a bigger frame too. But still..

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:01 am

rotla,
I stand by everything I have said, and I wrote quite a few posts explaining why I think Fed is better now.
Yesterday's match doesn't change anything.

Even if you look at yesterday, didn't you see how fast/supple his hands were at the net, at the baseline picking up half-volleys, his footwork...

He was heavily disadvantaged playing in different day conditions.
He does not stand 4m behind the base line, timing is everything in his ball-striking.

I hope you were able to see that.

He didn't miss the FHs because he is old or slow.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Daniel on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:41 am

Timing, accuracy, and reflexes are all affected by age (this is a scientific fact).  Even in snooker, every single player loses their sharp long potting ability (even O'Sullivan) by around 30.  This isn't some opinion, reflexes and age has been studied.  And I don't think you'll find one sport where the general trend is towards improving past 28.  You just won't.  Be it football, snooker, darts, or tiddlywinks...  age is a massive drag force that only causes more problems as time goes on.  Especially in physical sports.  Ronaldo was not Ronaldo at 30, Pele was not Pele at 30, Messi will not be Messi at 30, Ronaldinho is not Ronaldinho anymore, and Federer is not Federer at 33.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:20 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Oh come on now..Fed is so very slow in comparison to his young days.. His return reflexes are slower, haven't you seen how poor his returning have become in comparison? ......

Did you really watch the match rotla? Fed played amazing reflex volleys and half volleys like none of us have seen in the last 20 years! At some stages he had won 18 out of 20 net points! Even Edberg in his hey days did not have that ratio and he was dealing with much easier balls. His volleying display yesterday proves that it was anything but slowness.

To get to the net and volley you need amazing footwork and reflexes.

Did not Federer lose v Safin twice in his hey days? Don't you think Tsonga is moving twice as fast as Safin and has similar weight of shots as safin....that's one reason why Federer lost yesterday.

The other is that he played suddenly on conds he had not played all week (hot day versus cool night) and therefore it was a bit of a challenge to adapt obviously....especially considering how hard TSonga was hitting the ball.

Yet I would have fancied Fed to turn this around had he had a bit exposure to conds in that 3rd set.

Problem is that again you are only considering Federer and not the opposition. Tsonga wiped the floor out of Djoko and should have beaten Murray in 2 easy sets had he converted his 2nd set SPs (or BPs).

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:23 am

What I do not understand is that you think the game in 2007 is the same in 2014....Both of you are not grasping quite the work the other 100s of ATP players have achieved in that 7 year period.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:31 am

In 2007 Fed was H&S above everybody else, that allowed him to play freely, stress free. His shots were not coming back.

Nowadays players are giving him a harder ball to hit and his shots are returned much more often, meaning he has even smaller targets to aim at.

He is not losing v Lopez, he has beaten him more easily than in 2007!


2007 ATP Masters Series Madrid
Spain Hard Q Federer, Roger
7-6(4), 6-4 Stats
2007 US Open
NY, U.S.A. Hard R16 Federer, Roger
3-6, 6-4, 6-1, 6-4 Stats

It's the younger, top players he is struggling with. Those who learnt from him and the rest of the tour.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:46 am

Oh and another oddity...

Lopez in 2007 was ranked at around 8o while in 2003 under faster conds he was hovering around 20/30. So for him this new technology and conds affected his game. he was still giving Federer some challenge in 2007 (remember Fed was at "his peak" right?).

Now Lopez seems to play his best tennis again reached his highest ranking now and in 2012 at 30 and 32!!!! Not 27 FK, not 28 either.
Yet his best tennis now gives Fed less problems than in 2007!


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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by summerblues on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:27 pm

Tenez, there is no point picking one - or a few - matches against the likes of Lopez and conclude they are giving him less problems now than in the past, hence Fed is better now. Players win some and lose some, a handful of matches is not indicative of their overall performance. The fact is, Fed struggles far more now than he used to against all kinds of players.

A couple of days ago you suggested it was odd we criticised Fed's consistency, given that he made the finals of the last two tournaments he played. Yet, for 2006 Fed, those two results (final in W and in Toronto) would have been just about his worst results of the entire year whereas now we hail them as the proof he is still doing fine.

In his prime, he would literally make the final of every slam he played, winning most of them. Now he often loses in QF or earlier to nobodies, and almost never wins.

If he is better now than back then, then the rest of the tour must have improved immensely. The sport overall would have had to improve at a pace that pretty much no major sports ever improve at.

At the end of the day, if you choose to stand your ground and believe he is better now no matter what, there is no 100% way to prove one way or another, I recognize that. But that is sort of like at the end of the day there is no way to prove with certainty that Federer is abetter player than Becker...

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by sphairistike on Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:29 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
Oh come on now..Fed is so very slow in comparison to his young days.. His return reflexes are slower, haven't you seen how poor his returning have become in comparison? Yesterday was another example, Tsonga was having a great serving day.. true but Fed didn't have enough even on the 2nd serves. In fact this entire tournament and even wimbledon, his returning have been about average. 

Compare this with how easily he could return 145mph Roddick's serves. Or see how well he returns against Karlovic who is perhaps the best server tennis has ever seen. Fed has played great servers before, he has played sudden day matches after all night matches before too..but slowly his returning have declined with time. Its easy to see it, unless you want to deny the obvious. He has a bigger frame too. But still..
Hmmm...
A few (noticeable) improvements: his drop shots (improved a lot in 2009), his volleys (started improving end of 2011 and continued improving since), his BH...
Also, Talking about Roddick and his big serves, Raonic was easy picking for Fed at Wimbledon, straight sets, not even one TB!
Let's not forget Tsonga beat Djokovic easily, as well as Murray (who was playing as well as he has this year) in this tournament...

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Daniel on Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:58 pm

His backhand most certainly is not improved over 2006.  In any way.  It's weaker and he makes far more mistakes with it.  And as has been pointed out, he hardly ever manages to do a successful BHDTL shot now.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:39 pm

summerblues wrote:Tenez, there is no point picking one - or a few - matches against the likes of Lopez and conclude they are giving him less problems now than in the past, hence Fed is better now.  Players win some and lose some, a handful of matches is not indicative of their overall performance.  The fact is, Fed struggles far more now than he used to against all kinds of players.

Why not? It is very relevant. Because that is all the reference we have. I am also referring to rankings which are the results of many matches over a year versus the rest of the field. It's 2 matches v Lopez (and having gone through the list of his wins and losses of 2006/2007 I know very well who he dominated and who he did not then. Study the list and you will be reminded of many strange results.


A couple of days ago you suggested it was odd we criticised Fed's consistency, given that he made the finals of the last two tournaments he played.  Yet, for 2006 Fed, those two results (final in W and in Toronto) would have been just about his worst results of the entire year whereas now we hail them as the proof he is still doing fine.

In his prime, he would literally make the final of every slam he played, winning most of them.  Now he often loses in QF or earlier to nobodies, and almost never wins
Is that your only argument? Was Federer winning slams against a clock, a distance, of a lifting weight? Fed is playing against a constantly improving opposition, that might be the difference!!! Did not you notice either?
Owens time was beaten by Carl Lewis's whose in turn was beaten by Green, etc and now Bolt. None of those 100 000 racers of the past have been running faster than Bolt. It did not matter whether they were at their prime or not cause none have recorded as quick a time as Bolt. It's the same thing in tennis....10 years is a huge time and the field is going to improve considerably in that period (like most if not all records are broken in that period multiple times), especially in a very competitive environment.

Nadal found a way to beat Federer, like it or not, helped by changing conds certainly too, but the rest of the field also caught up. Yesterday Tsonga fitness was outstanding. never see before he looked like a Nadal with Safin shots.


When Pete said in 2002 he played his best tennis for winning the USO, you can trust what he says. He knows his gam. He even added that in his hey days his opposition was not nearly as good as in 2002. Only fans would see end domination down to the player and not the opposition.

If he is better now than back then, then the rest of the tour must have improved immensely.  The sport overall would have had to improve at a pace that pretty much no major sports ever improve at.
It's very easy...improve the sport physically (and we all know it has) and the talent becomes a lesser factor. Nadal did not wait for Federer decline to get his number....so that very simple fact proves the sport evolved and keeps evolving (and "improved" certainly physically)....before Federer even had time to decline.

At the end of the day, if you choose to stand your ground and believe he is better now no matter what, there is no 100% way to prove one way or another, I recognize that.  But that is sort of like at the end of the day there is no way to prove with certainty that Federer is abetter player than Becker.

I don't particularly want to stand by my ground. I just observe what's going on. If anything I would like to say Federer would be dominating now as then if he was as fit. But I would be wrong cause the game has changed:

1 - he learnt a different game with a different technology, playing very different players than in the 90s
2 - tennis pace conds itself has changed dramatically. Ex retrievers are now winning Wimbledon.
3 - the game improved so much physically that from 2004 to 2014 no SHBH got the chance to win a slam ...bar Federer. The fact that Federer managed to win a couple in 2010-12 shows how much hard work he had to go through to stay with the changing game.

Had Federer not adapted to the above, it's be another Roddick, Nalby, Safin, Hewitt, etc.....As you say players win some and lose some...and more so in the case of Federer who hardly loses matches too....nowadays. Despite the fact he is not eager to win as many matches as when young, he still has won more matches than anybody else this year. Isn't that consistency???? One cannot compare results in 2006 with 2014. It's almost a different sport...certainly physically.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:42 pm

sphairistike wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
Oh come on now..Fed is so very slow in comparison to his young days.. His return reflexes are slower, haven't you seen how poor his returning have become in comparison? Yesterday was another example, Tsonga was having a great serving day.. true but Fed didn't have enough even on the 2nd serves. In fact this entire tournament and even wimbledon, his returning have been about average. 

Compare this with how easily he could return 145mph Roddick's serves. Or see how well he returns against Karlovic who is perhaps the best server tennis has ever seen. Fed has played great servers before, he has played sudden day matches after all night matches before too..but slowly his returning have declined with time. Its easy to see it, unless you want to deny the obvious. He has a bigger frame too. But still..
Hmmm...
A few (noticeable) improvements: his drop shots (improved a lot in 2009), his volleys (started improving end of 2011 and continued improving since), his BH...
Also, Talking about Roddick and his big serves, Raonic was easy picking for Fed at Wimbledon, straight sets, not even one TB!
Let's not forget Tsonga beat Djokovic easily, as well as Murray (who was playing as well as he has this year) in this tournament...

Exactly Sphairy...according to SB, FK and others, That's not down to Tsonga improving but Djoko and Murray aging I guess.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by luvsports! on Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:56 pm

I just cannot see how these lesser players who are beating him now much more regularly than before have improved so much they are now better than feds, arguably the goat!

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:58 pm

luvsports! wrote:I just cannot see how these lesser players who are beating him now much more regularly than before have improved so much they are now better than feds, arguably the goat!
Who are those lesser players?

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:05 pm

First question...Federer goes straight to the point!

Q. What was it about Tsonga's serve today that gave you so much problem?
ROGER FEDERER: I don't know. I think it was the overall day conditions that were tough for me. It was faster than in the night, all my previous matches, so I think the turnaround was tough.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by luvsports! on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:08 pm

Players other than nadal djoko murray pretty much

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:10 pm

luvsports! wrote:Players other than nadal djoko murray pretty much
you mean the one who just beat 2 of those?

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:11 pm

More from Fed:

"Today was just difficult in terms of rhythm from the baseline, so it was like a new tournament for me today."

Is he delusional? did not he realise that's because he is too slow?

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:20 pm

BTW Tsonga is 29....he shoudl have declined 2 years ago according FK! Winking

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:25 pm

Q. (Off microphone.)
ROGER FEDERER: I was not playing good enough. You can be as nervous as you want to be. If you can't hit forehands or whatever, it's just, like‑‑ it wasn't my day, man. It was just a shitty day. (Laughter.)

 Laugh 

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Daniel on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:37 pm

Tenez wrote:BTW Tsonga is 29....he shoudl have declined 2 years ago according FK! Winking

Again, you find one exception and then try to make it a rule.  Tsonga of Aussie Open where he beat Nadal is certainly superior to the Tsonga today.  It's not about one result either, it's about the overall performance across all tournaments.  Federer is 33 (with far more miles on the clock), not 29.

I don't need exceptions.  The entire history of modern tennis shows us that age matters.  You won't see Djokovic or Nadal or Tsonga winning slams at 33.  Even Federer, probably the most gifted player of all time, is struggling to do it.


http://brainposts.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/elite-tennis-performance-gender-and-age.html


  • Female elite players reaching the highest world rank of 2 to 10 reach peak performance earlier than similarly ranked male players (22.7 years versus 24.2 years)




Tennis players appear to have an earlier peak performance than other athletes--25 years of age seems to be the year of peak performance for several other sports compared to an average of about 22 to 23 for elite tennis players.

The authors note that the majority of tennis players have a career that resembles a parabola with an ascent phase, a plateau phase and a decline phase.  Some individuals deviate this pattern based on career-ending injuries, pregnancy or other factors.


Also:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2082212-roger-federer-cant-escape-aging-curve-any-longer-after-2014-french-open

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by truffin1 on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:56 pm

The one thing I do know if Federer was shafted by the scheduling. He said at his presser that playing the final in the day after the night matches was like playing his 1st match in a completely different tournament.   It's actually quite amazing and a testament to his talent that he stayed so close through guile,experience, and talent when so much of his game was not working. Not many of the "golden era" players could have gone to plan b,c,d and e the way Federer did...   I think it's actually a pretty good sign of things to come.

Brad Gilbert and Cahill were making a pretty good point that Federer was missing an advocate who would go into the TD and demand a better schedule. Their view is Fed is so easy going and likes to be accomadating to what's best for the Tournament business, that he lets them take advantage of it.  They even mentioned Nadal- that Toni and the team go to the TD and fight for better times while Fed just goes along knowing he's going to get slotted for whatever brings the most attendees and viewers..  which leads to being shafted.   They laughed that they couldn't imagine Edberg bitching at the TD the way Toni would.
He will only have a day to get used to Cinci conditions and I am not sure he will be able to fine tune or get more work in on his forehand which is still lagging. I wouldn't expect him to kill himself to try and win Cinci, maybe a couple of matches and then get ready for US Open.  If he does face Murray in the quarters, that may be motivation to go all out-- fix that h2h and send a message for US Open.

It's all about US Open now though...  Toronto title would hve been nice and well deserved, but in big scheme doesn't change much for him main goals.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:20 pm

FedererKing wrote:
Tenez wrote:BTW Tsonga is 29....he shoudl have declined 2 years ago according FK! Winking

Again, you find one exception and then try to make it a rule.  Tsonga of Aussie Open where he beat Nadal is certainly superior to the Tsonga today.  It's not about one result either, it's about the overall performance across all tournaments.
I don't know if you noticed but this is far from being the exception. The more physical the game has turned, the longer it takes for youngsters to reach top level...and the bar has moved from 26/27 to at least 29/30. Ask Stan, Tsonga, Cilic etc...all those players who were noticed when young but coudl not deliver because of the physicality of the game are about to make a mark.

Oh..and isn't it you picking the exceptional match (Tsonga Nadal at AO)? Are you saying Tsonga declined since?  erm 


I don't need exceptions.  The entire history of modern tennis shows us that age matters.  You won't see Djokovic or Nadal or Tsonga winning slams at 33.  Even Federer, probably the most gifted player of all time, is struggling to do it.

Very wrong. The history of modern tennis does not tell you that teh sport has constantly changed technology, fitness, and much increased competition year in year out. When Borg was playing, 1000 youngsters were trying to train to make a living out of tennis
After Borg 100 000 tried to pick up on the sport, after Edberg and Becker, 500 000 after Agassi 1 Million, after Federer and Nadal maybe 5 millions? It is the arrival of more youngsters and new technology which shortened the career of teh champs. As simple as that. McEnroe's wins suddenly stopped when teh new generation arrived with medium format frames. the advantage they had is that they learnt how to play with large frame early on while McEnroe has still a wooden racket game....

...but I guess you are too young to remember...but taht the same thing for all the players till now. Pete started to lose even on grass when they introduced the luxilon strings..


Tennis players appear to have an earlier peak performance than other athletes--25 years of age seems to be the year of peak performance for several other sports compared to an average of about 22 to 23 for elite tennis players.
Amazingly wrong. Hope you will realise that one day....for your own good.  

You are mixing up success and peak. It does not go hand in hand. Borg was successful before McEnroe, McEnroe was successful before the youngster with medium format came to maturity, etc..... It does not say when they peaked.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:27 pm

truffin1 wrote:The one thing I do know if Federer was shafted by the scheduling. He said at his presser that playing the final in the day after the night matches was like playing his 1st match in a completely different tournament.   It's actually quite amazing and a testament to his talent that he stayed so close through guile,experience, and talent when so much of his game was not working. Not many of the "golden era" players could have gone to plan b,c,d and e the way Federer did...   I think it's actually a pretty good sign of things to come.

Brad Gilbert and Cahill were making a pretty good point that Federer was missing an advocate who would go into the TD and demand a better schedule. Their view is Fed is so easy going and likes to be accomadating to what's best for the Tournament business, that he lets them take advantage of it.  They even mentioned Nadal- that Toni and the team go to the TD and fight for better times while Fed just goes along knowing he's going to get slotted for whatever brings the most attendees and viewers..  which leads to being shafted.   They laughed that they couldn't imagine Edberg bitching at the TD the way Toni would.
He will only have a day to get used to Cinci conditions and I am not sure he will be able to fine tune or get more work in on his forehand which is still lagging. I wouldn't expect him to kill himself to try and win Cinci, maybe a couple of matches and then get ready for US Open.  If he does face Murray in the quarters, that may be motivation to go all out-- fix that h2h and send a message for US Open.

It's all about US Open now though...  Toronto title would hve been nice and well deserved, but in big scheme doesn't change much for him main goals.

This is what I said before I read his presser and taht's teh first thing he says in it.

Regarding my second bold statement, this is what I noticed already in mid 2007 and I made points about that in teh different forum I was posting.

I don't expect him to fight for Cincy either.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:43 pm

Even Nole agrees with OTF:

"“It's easier said than done. I feel like comparing the competition we had in men's tennis five years ago, it's quite different now. It's much stronger. There's a new generation of players that are able to challenge the big guys and that makes our lives a bit more difficult on the court. It's more reason to work hard and try to get yourself better than them on the court."

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2014/08/32/Cincinnati-Preview-Djokovic.aspx

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by ... on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:50 pm

truffin1 wrote:Brad Gilbert and Cahill were making a pretty good point that Federer was missing an advocate who would go into the TD and demand a better schedule. Their view is Fed is so easy going and likes to be accomadating to what's best for the Tournament business, that he lets them take advantage of it.  They even mentioned Nadal- that Toni and the team go to the TD and fight for better times while Fed just goes along knowing he's going to get slotted for whatever brings the most attendees and viewers..  which leads to being shafted.   They laughed that they couldn't imagine Edberg bitching at the TD the way Toni would.
Yes...this is what Toni said a few days ago:

"He might be short on match play but grand slams are always long. You start, and if you are lucky enough to have a good draw in the early rounds then you can find your form.
Rafa is not a beginner who needs many matches, he knows what he needs to do."

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:29 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Even Nole agrees with OTF:

"“It's easier said than done. I feel like comparing the competition we had in men's tennis five years ago, it's quite different now. It's much stronger. There's a new generation of players that are able to challenge the big guys and that makes our lives a bit more difficult on the court. It's more reason to work hard and try to get yourself better than them on the court."

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2014/08/32/Cincinnati-Preview-Djokovic.aspx
Wilander, Pete, Federer, Djoko, Nadal, etc....they all agree....

McEnroe said in 83 that when watching a replay of his 1980 Wimby final v Borg it looked like it was played in slo-mo.

nadal, Djoko and whoever will all be beaten by "improved" players before they have time to decline......though this generation has abused its body so much that they may decline quicker than the rest on tour.

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Re: Masters 1000: Toronto

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