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TENNIS: The Mental Game

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TENNIS: The Mental Game Empty TENNIS: The Mental Game

Post by noleisthebest Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:02 pm

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Post by noleisthebest Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:39 pm


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Post by laverfan Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:31 pm

A match that Djokovic should have won, but could not. Very physical and perhaps a good measure of 'mental' strength.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auzG1ENI7MU

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Post by Tenez Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:43 pm

It used to be a mental game...not anymore....certainly not at the top.

Federer takes the risk first so maybe for him we can talk about teh mental game...but I am afraid for the other 3 of the top 4, it's essentially about lungs and legs.

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Post by noleisthebest Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:47 pm

Tenez wrote:It used to be a mental game...not anymore....certainly not at the top.

Federer takes the risk first so maybe for him we can talk about teh mental game...but I am afraid for the other 3 of the top 4, it's essentially about lungs and legs.

how do/would you define "mental game"?

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Post by noleisthebest Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:50 pm

laverfan wrote:A match that Djokovic should have won, but could not. Very physical and perhaps a good measure of 'mental' strength.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auzG1ENI7MU

I knew it was going to be that match before even clicking on the link. I used to think that he should have won it. I don't know if I'm right on this or not, but I tend to believe that in tennis the better man on the ay ALWAYS wins.
If yo cheer for a player you tend to ignore blind spots which usually turn out to be numerous chances that your favourite player squander.
Now, why did Nole squander chances in that match and not during 2011?

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Post by Guest Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:09 am

Can't believe as how lucky nadal got in that match. Annoying to see him winning that one. Nole was the better player just didn't get the luck going with him but if i am not wrong then he did inflict a loss to Nadal at Madrid in a closer match in 2011 , perhaps.

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Post by Tenez Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:05 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:It used to be a mental game...not anymore....certainly not at the top.

Federer takes the risk first so maybe for him we can talk about teh mental game...but I am afraid for the other 3 of the top 4, it's essentially about lungs and legs.

how do/would you define "mental game"?

Well if yuo rush and go for too much cause your opponent can bring all balls back and make you run ad infinitum, then you might think that the guy cracks mentally.....while in effect he knows he is not physically fit enough to try to do anything else.

This is why players, particularly Nadal, Djoko and Murray speak constantly of getting fitter....and in Nadal's case, doesn;t even try to play if he is not 120% fit.

When Pete serves an ace on 2nd serve or double fault, BP or MP down, that is a mental "shot". When Federer keeps attacking and takes risk, comes to the net, etc... that requires a serious mental confidence in his shots and ability cause he will be asked to pull great shots at the net or get close to lines if it's a FH which will give him the point or make him lose it.

Nadal who is typically not taking risk , was forced during 2011 to take risk v Djoko in all his finals. Nadal had no choice but to go for shots earlier than Djoko. In 2012, especially during teh clay season, that was completely reversed. It was Djoko who had to come with the goods, take risk and hit winners, and that did not help him.

In short to attack one needs a strong confidence in his ability...to counter-punch you need a good pair of legs and lungs. Since Nadal, Murray and Djoko are not particularly agressive, it's clear that they are not challenged mentally. I certainly don;t think they play a "mental game".

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Post by Veejay Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:30 am

Mental game in my opinion is a combination of a lot of different factors and how you apply those factors in key moments usually under extreme pressure
I think some people are born with natural ability to focus and apply themselves more then others,but I certainly also belief that mental fortitude can be taught
It starts with learning to be disciplined,focused determined and willing to strive to be the best you can be while also being open to constructive criticism
All te top 4 players have shown incredible mental strength,they are clearly ahead of the pack in that department as their results speaks for itself,but even they have shown how easily their metal fortitude can crumble when their confidence is rattled

I still think tennis is a mental game,perhaps more physical for the players Tenez mentioned but its certainly is till very much the case for the rest of the draw
You see it so often with players like Benetteau or Falla who look set to cause an upset but end up losing the match cause they werent mentally strong or confident enough to close the match out,or because the likes of Federer broke their mental fortitude down.Another example is Gasquet,that match against Murray at Wimbledon is a classic example of chocking,he served for the match,was overwhelmed by the moment,Murray hits a few winners and suddenly his confidence flies out the window and just like that Murray breaks him mentally
Then you see a player like Rosol who was at the receiving end of every trick Nadal could throw at him to intimidate him and break his spirit,but Rosol rose above it and didnt allow it to distract,intimidate or distract his concentration,he just remained focused on the match
Then you have the various mind games Federer plays,like the one I mentioned on the the thread where he directly targets your insecurities by making you think about it while youre playing him.He also uses his skill to expose weaknesses or flaws in his opponents game,if he is the mood he will give you a master class or even worse a spanking or he simply out foxes you like he did with Murray and Djokovic at Wimbledon when you least expect it.He also likes to beat a player at their own game to impose his superiority,or toy around with you using the match as a practice session
You have to be pretty strong mentally to not allow it to get to you but its a lot easier said then done when you know the odds are heavily stacked against you when playing Roger
Mental strength can also be how losses or victories affect you,does a loss make you go into a slum for a few months or can you brush it off really quickly .Do loses to a particular player make you unsure of yourself every time you face them,the more you lose to them the bigger the complex or are you mentally strong enough to believe you can still win with losing h2h records
Then theres mental strength as in how you react in key moments of a match,how you play the big points,do you dwell on missed opportunities or wish you hit a different shot or did something different.Do those regrets haunt you for a few months
How do you react if your serve is broken,how do you react when youre trying your best but nothing is working,can you come back to win a match when youre down 2 sets,are you able to save break points or match points or do you crack under the pressure.Can you come up with the big serves under pressure,can you close a match out,can you hold onto a lead,do you allow matches you had almost wrapped up to run away from you. Can you play your best tennis in a tournament final or do you allow the moment to overwhelm you
How do you react to the pressure or expectation,can you handle being in the spotlight or does the attention make you too self conscious like Anna Ivannovic .How do you deal with what the media says about you,like if they were writing your obituary,does it sow seeds of doubt or are you determined to prove them wrong.How do you remain motivated or positive if youre not winning much

How you deal with each situation boils down to mental strength, you either crumble and succumb to your demons or you rise above it and come out on top

I could go on and on forever but I think everyone already knows all of this and gets the picture

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Post by laverfan Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:51 am

Tenez wrote:This is why players, particularly Nadal, Djoko and Murray speak constantly of getting fitter...

Murray is the only one I know who talks about getting fitter.

Tenez wrote:In 2012, especially during teh clay season, that was completely reversed.

Why? Did Nadal get 'fitter' than 2011 or is there a magic potion involved? Laugh

Since both Djokovic and Nadal do not play a 'mental' game, that must be the only explanation, correct?

Or perhaps, Djokovic forgot to go visit Doc Igor. Laugh

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Post by HM Murdoch Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:34 am

To me, this biggest facet of mental strength is the ability to play "in", and appropriately to, the moment when the pressure is on.

Players train for hours and hours to get shots and movements ingrained in their muscle memory. The mechanics of the shot are executed largely subconsciously.

What often happens though, is that when a player gets nervous, the shots stop happening subconsciously and instinctively and start becoming conscious movements. In a sense, it is almost as if they have become a beginner again because they can't tap into the benefits of all those hours training.

This isn't unique to tennis, it's just the psychology of a meltdown. It happens in all sports (look at Rory McIlroy in the Masters last year), it even affects musicians - I'm sure we all must have met or seen people who can play a piece well when alone but fumble it when performing in front of people.

Getting back to tennis, I think the most common example is when you get the low-ranked player who has the game of his life and has Fed, Nadal, Djoko etc on the ropes. Then, just as the win looks likely, they start overthinking, stop playing on instinct and their game collapses. That's why Rosol was so refreshing - he was "in the moment" playing his game right until the end.

I also think that, to a certain extent, this has affected Novak a bit this year. In 2011 and at AO12, he was always in the moment. It didn't matter if he was down a break or down match point, he was there playing his game, instinctively finding the right shots and the right lengths.

Since AO12, I've had the sense that the significance of what he is playing for or the status of the opponent has, at times, inhibited his game because he hasn't been able to play in the moment (most notable examples being Rafa at RG and Fed at Wimbledon). I think the best cure to this is a big win - hopefully at USO!

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Post by Tenez Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:08 am

Veejay wrote:Mental game in my opinion is a combination of a lot of different factors and how you apply those factors in key moments usually under extreme pressure
I think some people are born with natural ability to focus and apply themselves more then others,but I certainly also belief that mental fortitude can be taught
It starts with learning to be disciplined,focused determined and willing to strive to be the best you can be while also being open to constructive criticism

I agree with this and we can see the difference in mental strength between the players outside the top 4.

All te top 4 players have shown incredible mental strength,they are clearly ahead of the pack in that department as their results speaks for itself

However there I think for some of the top 4 their physique/fitness plays too big a role to talk "mental" strength with the rest of the field. We all remember too well how Nadal coudl not win a set out of the top 10 when his physique shrunk in Fall 09. that.

I still think tennis is a mental game,perhaps more physical for the players Tenez mentioned but its certainly is till very much the case for the rest of the draw
Certainly for the rest of the draw but let's admit it, there is little focus there....And even there the relative physique plays a huge part. It also plays a big part when the 3 "physical" players play against each other. And it's bloody important for Federer when he plays the other top 4.

You see it so often with players like Benetteau or Falla who look set to cause an upset but end up losing the match cause they werent mentally strong or confident enough to close the match out,or because the likes of Federer broke their mental fortitude down.

I woudl say essentially cause they know it's one-in-a-lifetime occasion. If they were as talented as Federer or if Federer was as fit as Nadal, then their mental strength woudl be stronger. It adds pressure. In a way pretty similar to Federer closing BPs, SPs, or MPs on clay v Nadal. He (and they) know that if they miss their chances, they will be harder to reproduce (v Fed cause he is extremely talented, v Nadal cause you get tired as the match goes on).

Another example is Gasquet,that match against Murray at Wimbledon is a classic example of chocking,he served for the match,was overwhelmed by the moment,Murray hits a few winners and suddenly his confidence flies out the window and just like that Murray breaks him mentally
Sure Gasquet "should" have closed it in 3 but it's physically he lost teh match in set 4 and 5. And to take this example, on faster conds Wimby 90s for instance, Gasquet woudl have had the confidence to finish the match cause teh rallies woudl have been short and physique played a lesser role. We can see for instance how Nadal never looks mentally strong on conds that are fast, where his physique count for less. Even on clay (2011) when the balls where flying.
Then you see a player like Rosol who was at the receiving end of every trick Nadal could throw at him to intimidate him and break his spirit,but Rosol rose above it and didnt allow it to distract,intimidate or distract his concentration,he just remained focused on the match
That confirms my point above where the power of Rosol made the conds like WImby 90s for him. Then mental is reverse! cause the mental strength of one disappears, while the confidence of the other grows. What woudl have happened on clay? Most likely the reverse.


Then you have the various mind games Federer plays,like the one I mentioned on the the thread where he directly targets your insecurities by making you think about it while youre playing him.He also uses his skill to expose weaknesses or flaws in his opponents game,if he is the mood he will give you a master class or even worse a spanking or he simply out foxes you like he did with Murray and Djokovic at Wimbledon when you least expect it.He also likes to beat a player at their own game to impose his superiority,or toy around with you using the match as a practice session
Well it's clearly his talent that allows him to do just that more than his mental strength, without teh confidence (which I guess can be seen as mental strength) he has in his talent, he woudl never have won a single slam. Those kind of games, typically don't win slams on slower surfaces like they are nowadays...they win you matches at best. Federer is absolutely amazing (I know I sound like a fan) to be able to produce such a sharp game, thinest margins, under the heaviest pressure. This is what I believe 90% of the tennis fans don't grasp. He is the only player able to win slams based on his talent, while the others use a huge dose of their physique. to make the difference all the way.

This from Fed's Cincy final interview is very interesting :



Q. You didn't face a break point throughout the match, but you did find yourself one point away from going to a third set. Is that an unusual' thing? Does that occur to you? Are you aware of that?
[size=9][size=9]


ROGER FEDERER: .....
I thought as the match went on it was going to get more difficult. It was important for me to get out of that second set, even though I wouldn't have been worried about the third set. Anything could have happened there anyway, but it would have given Novak that much more time to get into the match and maybe try out a few more things and get comfortable.
He did a good job to come back in the breaker, and he did definitely start to play some of those amazing shots we know he can do towards the end of the second set.
I don't want to say that got me worried, but I could see he was finding his range and making it super athletic the way he likes it.

Fed means super physical when he says super athletic. Something I noted a long time ago as a tactic to break teh edge of the player, especially efficient in a TB. Djoko tried to do the same in teh USO11 first TB. Engage in long rallies at the beginning of the TB to harvest easier points l(UEs) down the end of the TB.


Mental strength can also be how losses or victories affect you,does a loss make you go into a slum for a few months or can you brush it off really quickly
Yes though they go through Ws and Ls since their very young age....but certainly some losses are harder than others.

....Same here I could go on for ever. TENNIS: The Mental Game 1071211947


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Post by noleisthebest Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:46 am

Some really great thoughts and replies, just goes to show how comprehensive that aspect of tennis is.

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Post by noleisthebest Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:47 am

HM Murdoch wrote:

What often happens though, is that when a player gets nervous, the shots stop happening subconsciously and instinctively and start becoming conscious movements. In a sense, it is almost as if they have become a beginner again because they can't tap into the benefits of all those hours training.

I wonder if that's the point when confidence meets mental strength: winning confidence allows you to stay "in" and lack of (freshest example of Donald Young) pulls you back.

Confidence is kind of performance memory in that respect.

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Post by noleisthebest Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:56 am

Tenez wrote:It used to be a mental game...not anymore....certainly not at the top.

Federer takes the risk first so maybe for him we can talk about teh mental game...but I am afraid for the other 3 of the top 4, it's essentially about lungs and legs.

I do agree that great levels of fitness can boost your confidence esp in today's playing conditions, that's why Novak and especially Murray worked on it so hard.

They have both realised that was the way to beat Nadal, Novak succeeded.

Having watched Murray beat Federer at the Olympics I can certainly confirm that his improved fitness had a huge part in that win, he simply blew Federer off the court that's how hard he was hitting the ball, esp on his CC forehand.
Murray's forehand is the clearest example in how improved fitness helps.
His backhand is a lot more natural and equally fast, but a much nicer shot to look at.

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Post by noleisthebest Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:00 am

HM Murdoch wrote:

Since AO12, I've had the sense that the significance of what he is playing for or the status of the opponent has, at times, inhibited his game because he hasn't been able to play in the moment (most notable examples being Rafa at RG and Fed at Wimbledon). I think the best cure to this is a big win - hopefully at USO!

Tenez made a very interesting comment I didn't want to acknowledge to myself for a while, and that is that Novak may have been scarred by that long and brutal physical final mentally to the extent that he recoils from it.
That is a very deep place in one's mind and hard to judge, but it could have some effect on him. I know that Novak is extremely resilient and am kind of never worried about him, he only has short recoveries from emotional disappointmets which most recently was his medal-free Olympics.

I genuinely think he will be 100% ready in every aspect for USO.

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Post by noleisthebest Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:05 am

Veejay wrote:
Then you have the various mind games Federer plays,like the one I mentioned on the the thread where he directly targets your insecurities by making you think about it while youre playing him.He also uses his skill to expose weaknesses or flaws in his opponents game,if he is the mood he will give you a master class or even worse a spanking or he simply out foxes you like he did with Murray and Djokovic at Wimbledon when you least expect it.He also likes to beat a player at their own game to impose his superiority,or toy around with you using the match as a practice session
You have to be pretty strong mentally to not allow it to get to you but its a lot easier said then done when you know the odds are heavily stacked against you when playing Roger

Yes, Federer is a great example of the mind-games player, incl his pre-tournament/match interviews. He just loves to plant that little worm of doubt esp in Novak's mind.
I also think a player's locker room status is not to be sniffed at either.

The number of times I've seen annoyance on Novak's face when a lower ranked player doesn't want to cave in but keeps plugging. Priceless!
I suppose Nadal's disbelief and how he dealt with it at Rosol's courage and fearlessness was the ultimate example in that area!

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Post by Tenez Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:25 am

noleisthebest wrote:I do agree that great levels of fitness can boost your confidence esp in today's playing conditions, that's why Novak and especially Murray worked on it so hard.


Yep. It is no different than jumping onto a ring v Tyson knowing you are not fit enough. You mental strength melts. If you manage to get twice as big as Tyson, you might get the mental edge over him.

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Post by Veejay Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:41 pm

Good points Tenez

The thing about Gasquet is that the surface becomes irrelevant when discussing the subject of mental fortitude
In my opinion he is the most naturally talented player in the draw after Federer and could have ( should have) had a similar career to Roger when taking his insane talent into consideration
He is clearly not as competitive as Federer,and he is quite fragile
This is a classic example of how much of a mental game tennis is
You have two players with a similar amount of natural talent,one rewrote the history books and is now rewriting his own history book and the other ones best result in a major is a semi final at Wimbledon
It couldnt be any clearer,Fed may be a superior player,but the difference between having the talent and using it to break records and having the talent but your results spell out underachieving is mental foritude
That match with Murray,Gasquet was hitting winners left right and centre,it was all one way traffic up to the point where he served for the match,he completely outclassed Murray and then he suddenly got a little tight and then choked .I believe he lost the match right there and then cause Murray proved his mental fortitude by coming back from being down 2 sets,he won that match cause he was mentally stronger then Gasquest
Same thing with Roger at last years RG final.he was literally blowing Nadal off the court in the first 8 games,he missed that drop shot on set point,Nadal plays a dirty trick,Fed struggles to find his 1st serve serving for the set,Nadal breaks serve .That was the moment he lost the match,his spirit was broken,his level dropped significantly and he went on to lose the next 8 games
Its those moments when a player breaks down mentally that a match is lost

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Post by Tenez Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:30 pm

THanks Vee. Yes Gsquet has talent and the mental strength differences is certainly very obvious when comparing Gasquet with Fed or even Fed with Nalby. The latters are pretty close in talent but in mental and trophies there is a huge gap.

I see Gasquet as extremely good skill wise, but he cannot take the ball early or simply doesn't have the confidence to do it routinely, which makes me think that he is not as talented as we might think or simply is very weak mentally and has no confidence in his game. Probably the latter I guess as he can get through some good patches at time like in Toronto.

How many times Nadal and Djoko came back to win matches? Many times, not because they are mentally tougher but because they know that as the match goes on they get stronger than their opponent. I think very much the same happened between Gasquet and Murray in that Wimbleodn....like it happened at the FO a year or 2 later. If your strength is to hit winners, it's a much more fragile strength than teh strength of being able to run around for 4 hours bringing balls back with high margins. This is exactly why Federer starts well v Nada, Djoko but yet end up losing from a winning position. I am sure I have mentioned in the past that tennis is like Biathlon (skying/shooting). You have those that are good at shooting and those which are good at skying. The shooters will quickly lose their composure needed to shoot precisely, the more they run, the more their shooting edge is blunt and at the end those fitter tend to win the race. Well more so if it is a long race.

Lendl, and probably many before him, understood that very well. Lendl was unbeatable in smaller tournament, especially the best of 3. But he coudl not win a slam. He had teh shots, very risky FH but it was working marvel over 2 sets, if he was not asked to run too much. However he knew that to win a slam he had to be much fitter to be able to deliver the quality of his FH longer in 5 setters.

To me the mental side intervenes a lot in a Pete v Fed 2001 match. There it's clearly about the big points, the situation, short points/rallies, etc...as soon as they have 5+ rallies on regular basis, teh physique plays a big role, especially for those who have thin margins.

Look at Ljubicic, a great player, great shot makers, but completely uncapablable to deliver those shots for more than 3 sets and therefore never did much in slams.

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Post by paulcz Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:07 pm

Many good points here to the topic.

I see as really important to point out that the strength of their mental side during matches goes in hand with an audience support. Both, Fed and Nadal take a huge benefit from audience´s support. The last year RG, the audience atmosphere was just like Fed plays in Swiss, this year final against Nadal absolutely the same. I am quite sure that Nole with the same audience favor would have won both and Gasquet if played in France, surely would have won it with Andy. The matches with two player playing a close match are decided more by fans than by his opponent. But much more fragile to resist a hostile audience are women. I saw a couple matches between women where some fans made the result.

There is a disadvantage for players like Nole, who comes from a small country, where there are no Masters or GS and fan base is limited. The same case was Martina Navratilova or Ivan Lendl, who had the best achievements after they emigrated to US.

Nole if born in US, would have may won twice more GS than he has now.

But he would not change it, for sure TENNIS: The Mental Game 3157886161 He is the fighterTENNIS: The Mental Game 4052418255

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Post by noleisthebest Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:34 pm

paulcz wrote:Many good points here to the topic.

I see as really important to point out that the strength of their mental side during matches goes in hand with an audience support. Both, Fed and Nadal take a huge benefit from audience´s support. The last year RG, the audience atmosphere was just like Fed plays in Swiss, this year final against Nadal absolutely the same. I am quite sure that Nole with the same audience favor would have won both and Gasquet if played in France, surely would have won it with Andy. The matches with two player playing a close match are decided more by fans than by his opponent. But much more fragile to resist a hostile audience are women. I saw a couple matches between women where some fans made the result.

There is a disadvantage for players like Nole, who comes from a small country, where there are no Masters or GS and fan base is limited. The same case was Martina Navratilova or Ivan Lendl, who had the best achievements after they emigrated to US.

Nole if born in US, would have may won twice more GS than he has now.

But he would not change it, for sure TENNIS: The Mental Game 3157886161 He is the fighterTENNIS: The Mental Game 4052418255

TENNIS: The Mental Game 151447854

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Post by noleisthebest Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:50 pm

paulcz wrote:
But much more fragile to resist a hostile audience are women. I saw a couple matches between women where some fans made the result.

I don't know who's worse Ivanovic or Zvonareva.... TENNIS: The Mental Game 2474333020

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Post by Tenez Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:46 am

Going back to the core of this discussion, I don;t think we can compare mental strengthes between players who have a different styles.

On one side you have the "mentally strong" tennis styles (if not kamikase) , like Federer, Gasquet and Nalbandian...taking lots of risks with their shots but usually ending up mentally weak, especially under pressure. Fed being the exception here.

And on the other side you have fearfull tennis styles (hating making UEs), like Nadal, Murray and Djoko who play with lots of margins but are known to be tenacious fighters which gives them a strong mental reputation that their tennis styles don;t quite back up.

SO it essentially goes down to fitness. When Fed and Nadal play against each other for instance, we cannot compare the mental stress Federer's shots demand comapred to the high margins of Nadal's. Why is one so stressful and the other less so (high margins)? Simply because one relies, compensate should I say, on phyisque ability much more than the other which rely on shot-making and risky timing. In other words, what you cannot do technically, you compensate physically.

It's best demonstrated when returning serve for instance. If you take the ball early on the return, you need great timing skills but you don;t have to move so much on the sides to retun the serve, however this is a high risk strategy, requiring mental strength (confidence in own ability) on big points. If you stand 4m behind teh baseline, you don;t need those timing skills and mental strength as much as the ball has slowed down but you need more energy (physique) to get the ball (gone wider by then) and hit the ball harder to compensate for loss of the ball's pace.



So in summary, It's inversely proportional a mental game that it's not a physical game....in a nutshell. ....and we know today, tennis is a very physical game!!!!

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Post by noleisthebest Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:35 pm

Tenez,
If I understand you correctly you equate mental game with risk taking and attacking tennis.

It's a new angle I didn't have in mind when I wrote the article but am curious to know how you view two attacking players playing each other.

How does "mental game"manifest itself there, and how do you measure it?

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Post by noleisthebest Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:40 pm

I see mental game as all things that go in players' heads during the match: pressures, tactics, emotions, fears and how players cope with all those in order to bring out their best possible play and prevent choking and mistakes they normally don't make in practice sessions.

The same player pay differently when they play a different ranked player: say Del Potro against Federer and Del Potro against Niemenen.
What processes cause Del Potro to play differently on big points against these two and how and if that is possible to change.

In short, what makes a player have a "good day" or a "bad day".

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Post by laverfan Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:55 pm

noleisthebest wrote:so how do you explain those?

Soderling is the only player to beat both Nadal and Federer at RG. Injury references and innuendo aside, he was considered, and still is, considered a mentally 'weak' player. Anyone recall him being beaten 6-1, 6-0 in the previous encounter with Nadal @Rome 2009? In a gap of roughly 30-days, with the same coach (Magnus Norman), he beat Nadal, who is considered a fearsome fighter.

Federer, losing to Canas, twice in a row, or to Simon, or Fish. Djokovic getting bagelled in the first set at Cincy vs the second set in the same match shows what comes into play for players at this level.

'Mental' strength is one aspect, but is not the definition of a player, as is the physical side. They are not mutually exclusive. My analogy is one of a house, which cannot be defined purely by describing the windows in the house. A house has many facets. A Tennis player is also very similar. Neither mental nor physical strength alone wins matches for these players. The sum of these two, greater than the two parts individually, is what determines 'great' players vs 'players' who become footnotes in Tennis history.

Does anyone remember Luis Horna?

The one trait that stands out is the consistency of the players in the top echelons of Tennis today. Someone posted this on another forum, which I paraphrase here. In the last roughly 40 slams, from 2003 Wimbledon to 2012 W, there will have been just three instances of none of the current Top 4 appearing in the finals., which is a fantastic measure of consistency.

Instead of 'mental' strength, I would consider 'mental' resilience, the hallmark of 'greatness'. To recover from losses, love the sport, continue to play, some very fine qualities are visible.

Another example is Murray @ W 2012 (crying and apologetic) vs Murray @ OG. Murray in 2010 was AWOL for almost 4-5 months after his AO 2010 loss. The same thing was not repeated in 2012. Djokovic's 2011 is another stellar example of 'mind over matter'.

Is Tennis just a 'mental' game? No. Is there a way to say 'mental' strength plays a 50% role in 'great' players. Highly unlikely.

A 19-yo Gasquet beating Federer at MC 2005? He had to wait six years till Rome 2011 to beat him again in a close match. Was Federer mentally fragile? Highly unlikely.

Nadal's 2010 vs 2009 is another example of resilience playing a crucial role in his revival, physicality arguments aside. Winking

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Post by noleisthebest Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:44 pm

laverfan wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:so how do you explain those?

Soderling is the only player to beat both Nadal and Federer at RG. Injury references and innuendo aside, he was considered, and still is, considered a mentally 'weak' player. Anyone recall him being beaten 6-1, 6-0 in the previous encounter with Nadal @Rome 2009? In a gap of roughly 30-days, with the same coach (Magnus Norman), he beat Nadal, who is considered a fearsome fighter.


Why did you chose Soderling's example over say, Delpo's beating Nadal and Fed at USO?
I can see it's very hard to beat Nadal in RG, but that's not the case with Federer.

Are mentally weak players those who can pull of amazing wins (eg Rosol def Nadal in Wimbledon) and than disappear into oblivion?
One-slam wonders examples also fit that bill.

In Fedipal complex context, you have players having to face him across the net. They all now how hard he is to beat it's how they all react that tells how mentally weak or strong they are regardless of whether they win or lose.

It's not easy to give your best after you lost to a guy 12 times in a row, but Davydenko , for example did just that by winning the first WTF played in London defeating Federer.

Is Davydenko a mentally weak player?

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Post by Tenez Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:28 am

noleisthebest wrote:Tenez,
If I understand you correctly you equate mental game with risk taking and attacking tennis.

It's a new angle I didn't have in mind when I wrote the article but am curious to know how you view two attacking players playing each other.

How does "mental game"manifest itself there, and how do you measure it?

quote="noleisthebest"]Tenez,
If I understand you correctly you equate mental game with risk taking and attacking tennis.

It's a new angle I didn't have in mind when I wrote the article but am curious to know how you view two attacking players playing each other.

How does "mental game"manifest itself there, and how do you measure it?[/quote]

Well like talent it's very difficult to measure, if not impossible. But yes, in short I see mental strength as someone who wants to win according to his own terms. It's very simple, we all have the ability to hit winners. Nadal can try hit a winner anytime he wants...like even on a second serve he can choose to hit an ace. He prefers not to cause he knows his chances are slim. As he says himself in his book, why try to go for a 65% chance winner when 3 or 4 shots later (in teh rally) that winner can be 85%? He therefore chooses to expose himself to his opponent winners in those "3 or 4 shots"....almost hoping that during those shots his opponent will go for too much and produce an UE, but he can afford to run and retrieve those shots in those longer rallies cause he is fit. He is therefore tenacious and people see this a mentally strong. I don;t. I see this as physically strong.

To respond to your question, I see tennis as a mental game when the 2 players are attacking, cause the one attacking first tends to be the mentally stronger. At least the one being more confident in his attacking skills...and this is how I define mental strength really.

Look at Gasquet v Federer....both are very talented and attacking players....but Federer plays much closer to teh baseline, and is therefore taking more risk (tougher to time the ball therefore more "courageous")...and guess what you see clearly whom is stronger mentally.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:07 am

OK, so you associate mental game with risk taking. Mine reference was much broader, not referring to playing style but what goes on in players' head during matches and facing different opponents.

I thnk if you are naturally aggressive and moving forward its not that mentally draining for you, it's almost a relief and urge to go for it.
It can be demoralising thought if the balls keep coming back though, but then it's the same for all players Winking

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Post by Tenez Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:04 pm

noleisthebest wrote:OK, so you associate mental game with risk taking.

What else is it really? It's like a F1 driver trying to drive fastest on curving tracks without crashing out.

I thnk if you are naturally aggressive and moving forward its not that mentally draining for you, it's almost a relief and urge to go for it.
Not really cause when comes the pressure time, pulling winners is much harder than retrieving. If you play tennis and you play important points, you will very clearly see what I mean. For the retriever the mental side is much simpler...he is just asking his legs to run as fast and brings the ball back with some healthy margins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p9c78pMJjE

Look at this if you can! Winking Djoko takes all the risk and Nadal scraps through with ridiculous margins....and under pressure look at Djoko making mistakes....especially if the ball is tough to time like very fizzy and loopy.

Nadal is just scared to see a winner....but in those slow conds, on clay what are the chances of that? Extremely stressful for Djoko though.



On faster conditions, the attacking player is of course more relaxed than the defending player...cause he can rely on his shot making talent while the retriever is more likely to see many more winners.

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Post by laverfan Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:43 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
laverfan wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:so how do you explain those?

Soderling is the only player to beat both Nadal and Federer at RG. Injury references and innuendo aside, he was considered, and still is, considered a mentally 'weak' player. Anyone recall him being beaten 6-1, 6-0 in the previous encounter with Nadal @Rome 2009? In a gap of roughly 30-days, with the same coach (Magnus Norman), he beat Nadal, who is considered a fearsome fighter.


Why did you chose Soderling's example over say, Delpo's beating Nadal and Fed at USO?

Because he fits the criteria very well. DelPo at USO is bad example. IMVHO, because of Nadal's abdominal strain ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/sep/06/andy-roddick-john-isner-us-open ).


noleisthebest wrote:I can see it's very hard to beat Nadal in RG, but that's not the case with Federer.

Since 2004, Federer has lost to Nadal(5), Soderling(1), Kuerten(1) and Djokovic(1).

noleisthebest wrote:Are mentally weak players those who can pull of amazing wins (eg Rosol def Nadal in Wimbledon) and than disappear into oblivion?
One-slam wonders examples also fit that bill.

Canas, Fish, Simon are good examples of playing well on a given day.

noleisthebest wrote:In Fedipal complex context, you have players having to face him across the net. They all now how hard he is to beat it's how they all react that tells how mentally weak or strong they are regardless of whether they win or lose.

Murray post AO 2010. Winking

noleisthebest wrote:It's not easy to give your best after you lost to a guy 12 times in a row, but Davydenko , for example did just that by winning the first WTF played in London defeating Federer.

Is Davydenko a mentally weak player?

So did Soderling. Davydenko is not a mentally 'weak' player, but can lose focus quickly, for example the AO match against Federer. Is that a mental thing, perhaps yes?

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:05 pm

LF,
As far as I see it they all know their pecking order in the locker room.
They also know that on any given day the better player may be just tired or sick and tired of playing ... and if the other player manages to play his best and make the match tight.....that kind of thing; just one of many scenarios!
On paper seedings should always reach their ranking in a tournament, in reality, they rarely do (I'm not taking the top4 only here). I'm glad it's that way, otherwise tennis would be a bit boring to follow...

Just observe how Ferrer's quarter pounces in USO, many will view it as a rare opportunity, Isner's got a great chance to reach semis.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:11 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:OK, so you associate mental game with risk taking.

What else is it really? It's like a F1 driver trying to drive fastest on curving tracks without crashing out.

I thnk if you are naturally aggressive and moving forward its not that mentally draining for you, it's almost a relief and urge to go for it.
Not really cause when comes the pressure time, pulling winners is much harder than retrieving. If you play tennis and you play important points, you will very clearly see what I mean. For the retriever the mental side is much simpler...he is just asking his legs to run as fast and brings the ball back with some healthy margins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p9c78pMJjE

Look at this if you can! TENNIS: The Mental Game 1071211947 Djoko takes all the risk and Nadal scraps through with ridiculous margins....and under pressure look at Djoko making mistakes....especially if the ball is tough to time like very fizzy and loopy.

Nadal is just scared to see a winner....but in those slow conds, on clay what are the chances of that? Extremely stressful for Djoko though.



On faster conditions, the attacking player is of course more relaxed than the defending player...cause he can rely on his shot making talent while the retriever is more likely to see many more winners.

I've seen too many of those scenarios....yes, very frustrating and terrible for all players, really. Maybe conditions will get quicker, I think there's enough evidence that the tour would benefit from it, esp with Nadal out of picture. I don't know any other player who prefers to slog for hours.

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Post by laverfan Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:10 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Maybe conditions will get quicker, I think there's enough evidence that the tour would benefit from it...

According to Haas (interviewed by Nick Bollettieri) USO courts are playing fast. We saw the same thing last year.

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Post by laverfan Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:25 pm

Another example, which is perhaps is a bit controversial, is Borg. I would say IceBorg melted mentally, to retire in 1981.

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