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Post by summerblues on Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:04 pm

SR wrote:WOW, never thought we'd see Nishi vs Gira in the final sans nadal.
Indeed.  Mugro did not even make it to the final.  I guess his efforts yesterday drained him emotionally.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:05 pm

summerblues wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:But, the flip-side of any professionalism is those with less talent and ability will still want to succeed
But nothing wrong with that, as long as it is done within the rules.

he,he...I am not biting!

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Post by summerblues on Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:06 pm

SR wrote:I thought you said you don't want to discuss poster's personal matter?  Big Grin
Hehe.

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Post by summerblues on Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:07 pm

noleisthebest wrote:This was his, I believe temporary farewell back in February:
Oh thanks, I missed that one.

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Post by summerblues on Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:18 pm

noleisthebest wrote:he,he...I am not biting!
Hah.  But still:  why criticize "defensive play", "roadrunning", "athleticism", "muscles", "hitting from 4m behind the baseline" etc when what you really have a problem with is what you believe is persistent doping in tennis.  One can separate those two and make it clear that:

1. defensive physical play (e.g., to compensate for shot making skills) is perferctly fine but

2. doping is not.

Now, one may think there is a significant correlation between the two, and one may express that feeling too, but I still think the distinction between 1 and 2 should be made - both because the distinction is there as well as because you are less likely to be misunderstood if you do so.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:23 pm

truffin1 wrote:
That's kind of my point though I might not have phrased it well. I believe by not cycling down much last year- he cannot get the improvement that he needs to constantly stay ahead of the oncoming crowd.  He might be able to maintain the same level- but his body is basically doped to the max now and he can't improve from here.   Cycling down allows the body to rev up even more on the next cycle up. He can't get the rev up past the level his body has settled at now  Using a steroid example.. a weightlifter will get big on steroids, cycle down and cycle back up to get bigger. At some point if not cycling down and let the body come off of it--    but keeps doping he'll stay just as big as before, but not go beyond that.   Lose his hair and bad effects.

If Nadal suddenly takes some time off---  I will fully believe it's to try and cycle down and recapture some momentum.


To Tenez's point-  I think under this scenario- his confidence would take a huge blow knowing his body is unable to improve and his opponents are able to last with him. No different than Fed's confidence shaken by a real injury.  IF you know your body is stuck in a certain level- and it's not enough to win like in the past--  the only hope is that your body will eventually be able to improve again.

All this cycling up and down is still a hypothetical mystery to me. I admit I find it hard to grasp and comprehend states of mind and body I haven't experienced myself.
But I can see what it does and look like in Nadal, and in many others that have closed the physical gap. He for some reason took it furthest of everyone. It must feel weird to never tire yet hit the ball so hard for so long.

I think his loss of confidence came a great deal from that thrashing he got from Nole in Miami.
Tenez pointed out before that match it would be a good litmus test for RG, and judging from Nadal's post Miami slump - it was.
Watching him during WTF being so scarily physical and strength-wise superior to Nole, I was dreading AO and 2014.
I think the manner in which he lost the final there, esp the crowd booing him was a shock to him.
But you know what it's like with Nadal, I'll believe he's finished once Nole sticks his fork through him in RG.

In the meantime, I'm enjoying seeing all his early QF exits on clay and SBH-ers doing well!

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Post by summerblues on Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:28 pm

Kei's career high is #11.  If he wins tomorrow, he will be #12 and just about 100 points shy of top 10.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:34 pm

summerblues wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:he,he...I am not biting!
Hah.  But still:  why criticize "defensive play", "roadrunning", "athleticism", "muscles", "hitting from 4m behind the baseline" etc when what you really have a problem with is what you believe is persistent doping in tennis.  One can separate those two and make it clear that:

1. defensive physical play (e.g., to compensate for shot making skills) is perferctly fine but

2. doping is not.

Now, one may think there is a significant correlation between the two, and one may express that feeling too, but I still think the distinction between 1 and 2 should be made - both because the distinction is there as well as because you are less likely to be misunderstood if you do so.

The problem is that current playing conditions helped with doping have ruined tennis.
When you have the most talented and accomplished player of all time regularly lose to someone who without dope would not even be in top 300 and even have the ambition to overtake him, then you get the full scale of the problem.
Tennis becomes an armwrestling contest and people who know what it was like before, begin to lose interest.
Even worse, the new budding tennis fans who know no better think that's how it should be and even try to copy it...death of tennis.
Same has already happened in athletics, gymnastics, swimming, cycling etc...some like to call that progress and evolution but I am not one of them.

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Post by SayonaRa on Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:32 pm

Tenez wrote:
SR wrote:I'm confused, but alma is from Murica. He's not Catalan. I still don't understand why they rooted for him. Is it main land Spain vs Mallorca?

Well yes but the Mallorcans speak catalan and would typically support catalan speakers. ..yet they seemed to support Almagro but that was essentially down to Alma's game ....I guess.  
If I'm not mistaken, Alma played almost just as well last year vs nadal, except when he chocked. But I'm pretty sure they didn't support him over nadal then. That's why I'm surprised this time there's such a change of tune with the crowd turning cold towards nadal. I've been thinking about that a lot.

I think indirectly and ultimately it's the people power that brought down nadal. Could it be that the paying spectators overall are becoming sick of his mid-match foul play on court? They don't want to have their match interrupted anymore because some arrogant player has the audacity to carry on his gamesmanship anytime he feels like it; anytime it suits his agenda but detrimental to his opponents' winning momentum. 

So they booed him last AO and soon after they booed him again in MC when he argued with the umpire over his time violation. Nadal being booed like this is unheard of, no? Yesterday it was just as bad when the crowd bonded more with alma. All these direct and indirect audience protests against nadal plus the constant pressure of the time rule must be adding up enough to drive him crazy. No wonder he's crumbling.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:48 pm

SR wrote:I think indirectly and ultimately it's the people power that brought down nadal. Could it be that the paying spectators overall are becoming sick of his mid-match foul play on court? They don't want to have their match interrupted anymore because some arrogant player has the audacity to carry on his gamesmanship anytime he feels like it; anytime it suits his agenda but detrimental to his opponents' winning momentum. 
So they booed him last AO and soon after they booed him again in MC when he argued with the umpire over his time violation. Nadal being booed like this is unheard of, no? Yesterday it was just as bad when the crowd bonded more with alma. All these direct and indirect audience protests against nadal plus the constant pressure of the time rule must be adding up enough to drive him crazy. No wonder he's crumbling.
I don't think tennis crowds are that smart. Most people supported him because and while he was winning. Once that stops - he is no longer the hero that brings them the feel-good factor.

Crowds are fickle.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:24 pm

SR wrote:If I'm not mistaken, Alma played almost just as well last year vs nadal, except when he chocked. But I'm pretty sure they didn't support him over nadal then. That's why I'm surprised this time there's such a change of tune with the crowd turning cold towards nadal. I've been thinking about that a lot.
Apparently Barca is the club where Almagro trained.....so that maybe why he also had some support.
 
I think indirectly and ultimately it's the people power that brought down nadal. Could it be that the paying spectators overall are becoming sick of his mid-match foul play on court? They don't want to have their match interrupted anymore because some arrogant player has the audacity to carry on his gamesmanship anytime he feels like it; anytime it suits his agenda but detrimental to his opponents' winning momentum.
 
Possibly. To me it is probably again the crowd naturally cheering for the player dictating and here the challenger as well. I wonder whether Toni thinks that the Barca crowd is "a stupid crowd".
 
So they booed him last AO and soon after they booed him again in MC when he argued with the umpire over his time violation. Nadal being booed like this is unheard of, no? Yesterday it was just as bad when the crowd bonded more with alma. All these direct and indirect audience protests against nadal plus the constant pressure of the time rule must be adding up enough to drive him crazy. No wonder he's crumbling
Yes, I am pretty sure it is affecting his game.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:24 pm

Go Rossy!!!! diva

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:44 pm

Neck and neck between Dimi and Rossy, 5:5 in the first set.
Not so in Stuttgart, Ana serving to bagel Sharapova!

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:38 pm

And Dimi wins in Bucharest and caused a really bizzare scene: he threw his t-shirt in the crowd and it landed in the bunch of teenage girls. One of them got her hands on it and then the other 5-6 around her tried to snatch it from her...they are probably still at it, as the "fight" for Dimi's sweaty top was more fiery than Nole-Nadal rivalry...
At one stage the t-shirt got twisted around the girl's neck I thought they were going to strangle her, looked pretty disturbing, Dimi was a bit shocked.
It's probably going to be on Youtube soon...

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:46 pm

Moving scenes at the presentation again...last year we had Rosol's tears for his father's death, this year Grigor's mum trying bravely to hold hers...dad swelling with pride.
Great to see Romania's sporting legends Nastase and Komanechi present the trophy.
It may be a "nothing" 250 tournament where big names don't drop by, but, oh what a lot of human passion and emotion in one place!

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:59 pm

Nishi Giraldo starting soon.
Until I saw the highlights yesterday, I didn't even know what Giraldo looked like....Someone on tennis.com  even called him a Baby-Nole!!!!!   Laugh

So naturally, I've got to watch him now diva



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Post by truffin1 on Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:00 pm

Congrats to Dimi!

On another note- I just saw -ATP released stat of who got time warning violations in 2013- Nadal leads the pack with 30!!!!!!! The only top ten players with ZERO warnings was Federer and Stan. Swiss timing smiley

30! Lol. Where's amri to defend that!!?

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:03 pm

Good on the SBH Swiss duo!  Applause

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:14 pm

In the meantime, Sharapova has turned the match around and joined her boyfriend in the weekend title win!

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:25 pm

truffin1 wrote:Congrats to Dimi!

On another note- I just saw -ATP released stat of who got time warning violations in 2013-    Nadal leads the pack with 30!!!!!!!    The only top ten players with ZERO warnings was Federer and Stan.  Swiss timing smiley

30! Lol.   Where's amri to defend that!!?

30 is only official numbers. This is all despite umpires being so kind to Nadal. Did you not see how enraged Stan was this AO when Nadal suddenly disappears from the court and Umpires allowing such a behavior. He should have been disqualified at WTF 2010 agaisnt Berdych when he sat down like a stubborn obnoxious child refusing to play, but Bernades didn't do a thing.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:30 pm

Baby Nole looking good! He is the same age as his "dad" -26.

I have just realised this is the first time I've seen Barcelona final. No prizes for guessing why  Cool

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Post by Tenez on Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:34 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
truffin1 wrote:Congrats to Dimi!

On another note- I just saw -ATP released stat of who got time warning violations in 2013-    Nadal leads the pack with 30!!!!!!!    The only top ten players with ZERO warnings was Federer and Stan.  Swiss timing smiley

30! Lol.   Where's amri to defend that!!?

30 is only official numbers. This is all despite umpires being so kind to Nadal. Did you not see how enraged Stan was this AO when Nadal suddenly disappears from the court and Umpires allowing such a behavior. He should have been disqualified at WTF 2010 agaisnt Berdych when he sat down like a stubborn obnoxious child refusing to play, but Bernades didn't do a thing.
Yes 30 is just the official number. The real number is closer to the number of points served by Nadal.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:59 pm

It's weird to see Nishikori and Giraldo play fast, exclusive base-line hard-court tennis on clay. No grunting either. No sweat dripping.
I wouldn't mind at least an occasional drop shot, though...

Giraldo was 2:0 up, serving at 15:15 when Llayani awarded a controversial late out/call overrule point to Nishikori instead of having it replayed.
He allowed it to mess his momentum unfortunately.


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Post by truffin1 on Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:04 pm

Of course, he violates it much more. I saw 4 of his 7 matches at the AO this year, and the umpire warned or said something to him at least 4 times just from what was shown on tv. Still 30 official times is a pathetic disregard to the rules. If they actually stood up I hmm and called him on the coaching, nadals matches would be nothing but umpire warnings and lots of booing!! well at least the booing part has started!

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Post by Tenez on Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:06 pm

i have not been watchig but I heard the commentators say that Giraldo lost his concentration after the referee made a mistake while leading 2/0 in the first set. They also compare him at Agassi game wise.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:09 pm

noleisthebest wrote:It's weird to see Nishikori and Giraldo play fast, exclusive base-line hard-court tennis on clay. No grunting either. No sweat dripping...
Giraldo was 2:0 up, serving at 15:15 when Llayani awarded a controversial late out overrule point to Nishikori.
Giraldo allowed it to mess his momentum up unfortunately.

I wouldn't mind at least an occasional drop shot, though...
 Nishikori has some intelligent tennis mind. He often selects the right shot to make. he only had 2-3 drop shots but they were all very intelligently executed.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:14 pm

noleisthebest wrote:It's weird to see Nishikori and Giraldo play fast, exclusive base-line hard-court tennis on clay. No grunting either. No sweat dripping.
I wouldn't mind at least an occasional drop shot, though...

Giraldo was 2:0 up, serving at 15:15 when Llayani awarded a controversial late out/call overrule point to Nishikori instead of having it replayed.
He allowed it to mess his momentum unfortunately.

That decision was the right one made by the umpire. Giraldo too stuck out his left arm indicating a wide ball, I've seen this happen once with Roddick once when he too raise the left arm for a wide call along with the linesman and lost the challenge and the point was awarded to the shot-maker.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Tenez wrote:i have not been watchig but I heard the commentators say that Giraldo lost his concentration after the referee made a mistake while leading 2/0 in the first set. They also compare him at Agassi game wise.

I wouldn't compare him to Aggassi from what I've seen today. Nor to Nole. But playing baseline tennis, there is definitely some overlap with both. Nice FH.

He strikes the ball well and lightly but too far behind the baseline to impose himself on Nishikori. Not a classic grinder but not in a hurry to finish the point either.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:44 pm

In the end, Nishi wins with ease...just too quick and consistent for Giraldo.
I am assuming Nishi is not going to bite that poor trophy during presentation.
Good, useful and probably unexpected 500 points in the pocket for him.
Top 10 entering an interesting phase in the next few months.


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Post by SayonaRa on Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:09 pm

Nishi  Smooch   Applause 

A clay final in Spain won by an Asian. What are all the nadal fans and locals thinking now?

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Post by SayonaRa on Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:14 pm

truffin1 wrote:
That's kind of my point though I might not have phrased it well. I believe by not cycling down much last year- he cannot get the improvement that he needs to constantly stay ahead of the oncoming crowd.  He might be able to maintain the same level- but his body is basically doped to the max now and he can't improve from here.   Cycling down allows the body to rev up even more on the next cycle up. He can't get the rev up past the level his body has settled at now  Using a steroid example.. a weightlifter will get big on steroids, cycle down and cycle back up to get bigger. At some point if not cycling down and let the body come off of it--    but keeps doping he'll stay just as big as before, but not go beyond that.   Lose his hair and bad effects.

It would seem that he cycled up only until FO/W in the past. That's why by USO he never could win it because he wasn't doped for it, until 2010 when he prolonged the cycle to produce that absurd serve that helped him win the American slam for the first time. Then when cycling down towards 2011 he went thru a low period (7 final losses to Djoko) very similar to what we've seen thus far in 2014.

So in retrospect, like you said, he must have prolonged his doping program last year in order to win USO for the 2nd time. How else could the clay courter have done it? Then cycling down post-New York, everything went down hill gradually and that cost him the WTF. Only his fans are dumb enough not to see what is obvious.

After that do you think he had cycled up for AO again but still lost? I can now see the parallel so clearly. It's primarily the negative effects of over-doping in 2013 that's responsible for his down time in 2014 so far, just like what led to his down form in 2011 after he over-doped to win NY '10. Question is, he lost in both Madrid & Rome but still won FO in 2011; can he win FO after an even more disastrous clay performance now leading to Paris '14?

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Post by SayonaRa on Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:17 pm

truffin1 wrote:Of course, he violates it much more.  I saw 4 of his 7 matches at the AO this year, and the umpire warned or said something to him at least 4 times just from what was shown on tv.     Still 30 official times is a pathetic disregard to the rules.   If they actually stood up I hmm and called him on the coaching, nadals matches would be nothing but umpire warnings and lots of booing!!  well at least the booing part has started!
For me the booing is very symbolic. It foreshadows the beginning of the end of perhaps the ugliest chapter in ATP history.  Magic

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Post by Tenez on Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:18 pm

SR wrote:
It would seem that he cycled up only until FO/W in the past. That's why by USO he never could win it because he wasn't doped for it, until 2010 when he prolonged the cycle to produce that absurd serve that helped him win the American slam for the first time. Then when cycling down towards 2011 he went thru a low period (7 final losses to Djoko) very similar to what we've seen thus far in 2014.

So in retrospect, like you said, he must have prolonged his doping program last year in order to win USO for the 2nd time. How else could the clay courter have done it? Then cycling down post-New York, everything went down hill gradually and that cost him the WTF. Only his fans are dumb enough not to see what is obvious.

After that do you think he had cycled up for AO again but still lost? I can now see the parallel so clearly. It's primarily the negative effects of over-doping in 2013 that's responsible for his down time in 2014 so far, just like what led to his down form in 2011 after he over-doped to win NY '10. Question is, he lost in both Madrid & Rome but still won FO in 2011; can he win FO after an even more disastrous clay performance now leading to Paris '14?

I am not very knowledgeable about cycling up and down. There was some clear patterns in the past....I doubt it is that obvious nowadays with the science constantly getting better.

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Post by Daniel on Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:27 pm

SR wrote:
truffin1 wrote:Of course, he violates it much more.  I saw 4 of his 7 matches at the AO this year, and the umpire warned or said something to him at least 4 times just from what was shown on tv.     Still 30 official times is a pathetic disregard to the rules.   If they actually stood up I hmm and called him on the coaching, nadals matches would be nothing but umpire warnings and lots of booing!!  well at least the booing part has started!
For me the booing is very symbolic. It foreshadows the beginning of the end of perhaps the ugliest chapter in ATP history.  Magic
#
Here here!

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Post by Tenez on Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:48 pm

Just realised that Nishi was playing a 500 while Dimi won a 250....Nishi is going to take over. Easy points it was for him....but it's good for his confidence and he should move things around in the top 10.

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Post by SayonaRa on Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:29 pm

SR wrote: I can't believe nadal will be lifting his 2nd trophy thus far with virtually no competition whatsoever.
 Ahem, award-winning Nadal jinx this clay season. Amri should be so proud me. Pat myself at the back....... Laugh

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Post by SayonaRa on Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:35 pm

Tenez wrote:Just realised that Nishi was playing a 500 while Dimi won a 250....Nishi is going to take over. Easy points it was for him....but it's good for his confidence and he should move things around in the top 10.
Kei was very solid and full of determination. I think this time he would have overcome Nadal if they had met. He fully deserves it.

SayonaRa

Posts : 616
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Post by Tenez on Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:38 pm

SR wrote:
SR wrote: I can't believe nadal will be lifting his 2nd trophy thus far with virtually no competition whatsoever.
 Ahem, award-winning Nadal jinx this clay season. Amri should be so proud me. Pat myself at the back....... Laugh
And I said that Alma would not win v Nishi or Gulbis....but he did not even do it that far.

Tenez

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Post by Tenez on Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:39 pm

SR wrote:
Tenez wrote:Just realised that Nishi was playing a 500 while Dimi won a 250....Nishi is going to take over. Easy points it was for him....but it's good for his confidence and he should move things around in the top 10.
Kei was very solid and full of determination. I think this time he would have overcome Nadal if they had met. He fully deserves it.

Yes he could be a danger at the slams from now on.....if he stays injury free.

Tenez

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Post by summerblues on Fri May 02, 2014 5:27 am

noleisthebest wrote:SB,
do you know if Tennistalk allow advertising other forums?
If so, could you advertise OTF there?
Oracle was fine with it, so I posted a message there with a link to this site.  I promised oracle to do a reciprocal advert here.  For all practical purposes I had done it already, but to satisfy the letter of our agreement with her, I am reposting the link again:

http://tennistalk.freeforums.org/

I had already told you about this site before, so nothing more else to add here.

summerblues

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