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Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

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Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:08 am

from Federer 8th to Ferrer's 4th ranking there are only 500 points between them. in the IW/Miami swing Federer has only 180pts to defend, Murray has 1180, Delpo has 600points but sadly he is injured, Berdych has a 540 points to defend and Stan at number 3 has only 90 points but is roughly 1000 points ahead of Federer.

So any decent performance from Fed and any slip up from the above players and Federer would regain his 4th spot and knowing him if he does well at IW, he will probably not bother turning up at Miami. This 4th spot would be handy before FO and Wimbledon.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:59 am

With all its potential changes, top 10 is looking very interesting.

It would be great for Federer to get to number 4 asap and make his life easier in all tournaments.

I am very disappointed about Delpo's injury, as he was beginning to establish himself in top 4, looked hungry, and best of all -displaced Ferrer.
Will he just rest his left wrist for some time now, will he be playing with painkillers, or will he undergo another surgery?
He could always switch to a SBH Run

Murray is down to number 7, the little I saw of him this year, he looked ultra muscly, but match unfit. Agassi was right to criticise him recently saying he needed to try and improve his tennis, not be obsessed with fitness.

Nadal has so many points to defend now, and it's about time he started dropping some of them on clay.
I have no doubt he'll come fitter than ever and have usual easy draws, so will be hard to stop, would like to see Stan take him on clay.

Nole...I don't think it's time for panic yet. He keeps repeating he has worked on his game and expecting the results to come, so I'll take his word for it.
After all, his only 2 losses came from Stan and Fed, who ended up winning the tournaments.
To me, he looked poweless against Fed from the baseline, and when at the net, struggled with the 1st volley. Boris has got to fix this asap.
I think he'll be fine come European clay season.

All in all, a brilliant and unexpected start to 2014, may the nice surprises continue.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:14 pm

Real shame about Delpo...but how on earth can you injure your left hand when you are essentially a right hander? Happened to a DHBH club member of ours too though strangely.

Murray is down to number 7, the little I saw of him this year, he looked ultra muscly, but match unfit. Agassi was right to criticise him recently saying he needed to try and improve his tennis, not be obsessed with fitness.

Did Agassi say that?  Laugh  I think he is right though..partly...cause without his fitness Murray would not be a top 10. We can see how he struggles v people outside top 10 and only manages to outlasts them which is weird for a 6'3 player!

Yes let's see how nadal copes with the pressure of defending all those points.

There was something wrong with Djoko's movement v Federer. The fact is he relies so much on it that it' also bound to break down sooner or later. I think this is what happens v Nadal and Federer, even Murray....he tries physically too hard and gets a bad patch due to a physical strain. That physical strain takes his focus away for a set or 2..if not the match. He was clearly under his level after the first set.




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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:58 pm

Tenez wrote:. There was something wrong with Djoko's movement v Federer. The fact is he relies so much on it that it' also bound to break down sooner or later. I think this is what happens v Nadal and Federer, even Murray....he tries physically too hard and gets a bad patch due to a physical strain. That physical strain takes his focus away for a set or 2..if not the match. He was clearly under his level after the first set.

Interesting observation.
Nole has played a lot of lazy tennis for a long time. He has got to start going for shots more from the very start of the match.
He gets drained trying to chase fast, wide shots against Delpo, Berd and Fed etc. It worked for some time, but it's physically unsustainable for him now, his stamina is excellent, but his strength quite behind most top 10.

Time for him to go and win matches with shorter points, and leave his current A game as plan B, and preserve all the energy for grinding Nadal.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:50 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Time for him to go and win matches with shorter points, and leave his current A game as plan B, and preserve all the energy for grinding Nadal.

Yes but the question is: can he? We see for instance that in that department guys like Stan, Fed, Grigor are better. Djoko needs to find the right balance for him...and imo it means keep doing what he is doing more or less.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:09 pm

He didn't always play like he's played the last 3-4 years.
He opens his rallies with a completelly unnecessary set of 3-4  shots too often even on his own serve, achieves nothing with it against the very best players (who are all pretty fit now), and THEN goes for either a CC or inside out FH, more than often with no intention to end the point with them, but to open the court for a safe winner.
That has to stop as it's become easy to play against, as has been shown in the last 12 months.
I think he is very aware of it and trying to change it.

Can he?
You obviously think he can't, but I hope he can.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:21 pm

He will produce great winners at times but it's not those that make him win matches. The fact is each time he has tried to beat Nadal this way he failed. He could win a set this way but then went into UEs frenzy mode.

The long rallies, and even more so the long matches is what brought him success. Sure he can have a purple patch of 2 or 3 sets but usually against the better player the distance of the match really works in his favour.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:39 pm

I think he has hit the brick wall physically.
When was the last time he won a long match, Wimbledon SF against Delpo?
I know he can't transform his game drastically, what I'm saying is he needs to eradicate energy wasting patterns that don't do anything for him any more.
He went for his shots a few times against Federer, esp with his FHDTL, that was new, and I really liked it.
His BH has looked pretty average for a long time, too and I don't know why.
At least his serve is good.

I like him when he is on the centre of baseline playing his FH aggressively, that's him at his very best.

I hope his legs are OK, because if there's anything wrong there, he's finished.

Did you read that Tomic had surgery on both hips?

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:03 pm

noleisthebest wrote:I think he has hit the brick wall physically.
When was the last time he won a long match, Wimbledon SF against Delpo?
I know he can't transform his game drastically, what I'm saying is he needs to eradicate energy wasting patterns that don't do anything for him any more.
He went for his shots a few times against Federer, esp with his FHDTL, that was new, and I really liked it.
His BH has looked pretty average for a long time, too and I don't know why.
At least his serve is good.

I like him when he is on the centre of baseline playing his FH aggressively, that's him at his very best.

I hope his legs are OK, because if there's anything wrong there, he's finished.

Did you read that Tomic had surgery on both hips?

At this age there is no brick wall. You recover and as we know stamina improves even. I must say he plays differently v Federer than v other players (Murray is the same). They know that v Federer they need to produce the winners every now and then otherwise they won't finish the match healthy.

No did not know about Tomic. SO he has bionic hips now?

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:59 pm

I don't know what type of surgery, but is due back in Monte Carlo
http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2014/03/tomic-aiming-april-return/50786/#.UxSlicsgGSM

As for the physical brick wall, are you saying there is no limit to increasing fitness? (legal or illegal)

He was burning the candle at both ends in 2011, to me, he hasn't been the same since that AO 2012 final.
Plus, he seems not to be getting that great on with WADA/ITF bosses lately....

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:15 pm

noleisthebest wrote:I don't know what type of surgery, but is due back in Monte Carlo
http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2014/03/tomic-aiming-april-return/50786/#.UxSlicsgGSM

As for the physical brick wall, are you saying there is no limit to increasing fitness? (legal or illegal)

He was burning the candle at both ends in 2011, to me, he hasn't been the same since that AO 2012 final.
Plus, he seems not to be getting that great on with WADA/ITF bosses lately....

Not sure but I meant that at this age you can improve stamina, footwork and so on...and he is young enough so that he can recover from any exhausting match.....though we can expect that to become tougher from now on. But again I think there are drugs which can really help you recover from the day before match...not sure how legal are the best drugs.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by truffin1 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:22 pm

Federer may play Miami even if he does well in IW because it seems Mirka is due pretty soon- and his schedule might be disrupted during the clay season.  He prob needs to secure points while he can.

The field is open for him to climp up the rankings right now..   It's about time Ferrer dropped back down and quit messing up draws.  Murray is looking so/so, Delpo hurt. I think Federer and Berdych have a real shot at moving up into top 5. 

Who can take down Nadal though on clay and the ultra slow IW and Miami though? The top guys are kind of in tatters....   For all the hype of Stan- we don't know if he can back it up and he's been on an extended break so will need time to get match tough. Djoko looks vulnerable. Federer is past being able to beat a fit Nadal on clay and slow surface.  Murray, Delpo, Ferrer- hurt or trying to come back,  Berdych has mental meltdowns against Nadal.    I can see Nadal finally defending a non clay title for the 1st time in his carreer.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:53 pm

truffin1 wrote:Who can take down Nadal though on clay and the ultra slow IW and Miami though? The top guys are kind of in tatters....   For all the hype of Stan- we don't know if he can back it up and he's been on an extended break so will need time to get match tough. Djoko looks vulnerable. Federer is past being able to beat a fit Nadal on clay and slow surface.  Murray, Delpo, Ferrer- hurt or trying to come back,  Berdych has mental meltdowns against Nadal.    I can see Nadal finally defending a non clay title for the 1st time in his carreer.
That's the one I got wrong every year almost....bar maybe 2011 and even then Federer messed up the FO big time by beating Djoko.

I still think Djoko can really hurt nadal on clay. He just needs a clear mind...and not face too good opposition before the final.

Regarding Berdych, I still think he is higher than he should. I think Delpo is by far the more solid player when not injured and Ferrer can actually take care of berdych most of the time.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by bluenose on Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:56 pm

When you bring in Berdych, I feel my kinship with Paul - he wants to see more in Berdych's game than is there just as I believe in Raonic.  The difference is that Berdych has peaked in his physical skills but failed to develop a real game, has no guile and seems to have no feel for the flow of a point.  Raonic is beginning his career and can still develop, wants to develop as full a game as he can.  We'll see how that goes over the next 2 or 3 years when he reaches maturity and absorbs the lessons of the court.  Berdych had early success with power and sort of ossified there.  There isn't much pleasure in watching him, whereas there is an excitement factor to Del Potro because he lumbers about but can move like a cat and isn't afraid of the net and that hoot he gives when unleashing is electrifying.  I would love to know what that feels like to return!  Once!

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:00 am

bluenose wrote:When you bring in Berdych, I feel my kinship with Paul - he wants to see more in Berdych's game than is there just as I believe in Raonic.  The difference is that Berdych has peaked in his physical skills but failed to develop a real game, has no guile and seems to have no feel for the flow of a point.  Raonic is beginning his career and can still develop, wants to develop as full a game as he can.  We'll see how that goes over the next 2 or 3 years when he reaches maturity and absorbs the lessons of the court.  Berdych had early success with power and sort of ossified there.  There isn't much pleasure in watching him, whereas there is an excitement factor to Del Potro because he lumbers about but can move like a cat and isn't afraid of the net and that hoot he gives when unleashing is electrifying.  I would love to know what that feels like to return!  Once!
I like your English! It's original!

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:05 am

So Federer by qualifying to the 1/4F has overtaken Delpotro and Berdych and is therefore guaranteed back to number 6. Would he beat Anderson in that 1/4F he will also overtake Murray. Winning IW would see him back to number 4!
 
But it is very likely that whether he plays Miami or not he is 99% most likely to end up number 4 at the end of Miami as Ferrer, is a Finalist there and I cannot see him defending it with his current form..let alone winning it.
 
However it seems that Stan flew back with Federer after IW13 and has therefore no point to defend, so unless Federer plays Miami he has no chance to overtake Stan by end of Miami.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by truffin1 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:25 pm

Courier was really rubbing it in last night to those who wrote off Federer from a capability standpoint last year...  speaks to your point Tenez about what Fed is still capable of even at 32.   Courier is putting it all down to the back injury and says Fed has at least 2 years of being a force still.

More and more looks like Fed is going to skip Miami-- or should I say- if he continues to win at IW...  by playing deep into the week both singles and doubles, and given his wife's condition-  the talk out of his camp is he skip. 

Part of me thinks that he should play to secure some extra points that may be needed to hold the important top 4 ranking that ill help him at FO and esp Wimby.   His schedule might also be disrupted when the baby comes, so why not play now while you know you can.  

However, Federer says he's playing for titles and not ranking and given his current form (barring injury) I think he's pretty confident that his form will continue to bring semis, finals and wins in tournaments to maintain top 4 even without Miami.  He apparently isn't a huge fan of the Miami courts and tournaments so prob will skip for some rest, training, and painting the baby room :-)

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:45 pm

Thanks Truffin. Glad courier thinks so too...though I admit that back is unlikely to improve much with age.....even if it could. It would be easy for me to say that Federer only loses cause he is aging and remember his hey days. But I know that Federer's main trouble besides was the fact he started playing guys who simply came up with a different game, simply much more physical, than those he was exposed to prior to nadal's arrival. In fact he already had trouble with lung busting players like Hewitt and the new guys simply put the physical bar higher, much higher. keeping his old racquet and playing the old style was a bit of mistake despite his great results. From 2007 he already added more safety to his FH and though this was a good move he should have done so with a bigger racquet. He may have won 4 or 5 more slams. I am thinking about those he lost closely (2 USO v Djoko, 3 v Nadal (AO09, Wimby 08, FO11). Of course we will never now but considering he admits himself he has more power from the BH, for me those extra slams would have been almost a formality considering how tennis at this level is just about points there and then....and confidence which clearly is what he lacked from his BH side.
 
regarding playing Miami, this is where I believe Age is the factor. Though I think he can play as well as ever...I certainly do not think he can line up matches as easily as when he was 27. In fact he was complaining about the TMS1000 format already in 2008 saying they are harder than slams cause no day rest between  final matches.  I am actually happy if he pulls out of Miami...and more so that it is another bloody slow (if not slowest) HC on the tour. That will teach them! Winking

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by truffin1 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:56 pm

Right on all points Tenez..

It should be added in the ranking discussion- that if Federer does win IW--   he moves to #1 in the year to date rankings!!

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:48 am

Right! Federer will be number 4 on Monday.

I believe only a win will take him to number 3. I want Stan to slide a bit cause he makes the draw unbalanced. I actually would not mind Murray back in the top 4.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:13 pm

Tenez wrote:Right! Federer will be number 4 on Monday.

I believe only a win will take him to number 3. I want Stan to slide a bit cause he makes the draw unbalanced. I actually would not mind Murray back in the top 4.
Murray's presence in top-4 doesn't balance the draw any more than Stan's. Murray was never a consistent or dominant player and his chances currently to lose early is more than Stan's. Dolgo has been playing some good tennis off late and is in form, Stan is coming from a prolonged break and isn't even 100% fit.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by truffin1 on Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:52 pm

Fed's interested in #1 again. I don't know if he can do it, but what an achievement that would be!

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Daniel on Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:57 pm

There is no chance Federer will ever be WN1 again.  You heard it here first and you can bookmark it.  He is simply not the same player as he was and he is heading backwards at this age.   I reckon he has another slam or two in him, but even that is a doubt.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:53 am

truffin1 wrote:Fed's interested in #1 again. I don't know if he can do it, but what an achievement that would be!
 Agreed that he he is interested in #1, but its not like he would be okay with anything if not #1. The top-4 bracket gives him a better chance in slams than being in 5-8 , so why not try to get it. He will definitely prefer being in in top-4 rather than top-8

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:33 pm

Here is how it should look like on Monday...If Djoko wins it. If Nadal wins then the gap is about 2500 instead of 1800.

However no more French in the top 10!  erm , Berdych can overtake Federer and reach number 4 if he wins the whole thing. Murray drops from 8th to 6th. Ferrer from 4th to 6th and Raonic is back in the top 10.

1 Nadal, Rafael (ESP) 13730
2 Djokovic, Novak (SRB) 11900
3 Wawrinka, Stanislas (SUI) 5650
Federer, Roger (SUI) 5225
5 Berdych, Tomas (CZE) 4720
6 Ferrer, David (ESP) 4550
7 Del Potro, Juan Martin (ARG) 4270
8 Murray, Andy (GBR) 3975
9 Isner, John (USA) 2715
10 Raonic, Milos (CAN) 2710
11 Gasquet, Richard (FRA) 2635
12 Tsonga, Jo-Wilfried (FRA) 2615

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:12 pm

So here the ranking on Monday....Djoko narrows the nearly 4000 points gap after the AO to les than 2000....and that before the clay season!
 
 pointsdifference
1 Nadal, Rafael (ESP)
13,730
2 Djokovic, Novak (SRB)
11,810
1,920
3 Wawrinka, Stanislas (SUI)
5650
6,160
Federer, Roger (SUI) 5225
5225
425
5 Berdych, Tomas (CZE) 4720
4720
505
6 Ferrer, David (ESP) 4550
4550
170
7 Del Potro, Juan Martin (ARG) 
4270
280
8 Murray, Andy (GBR)
3975
295
9 Isner, John (USA) 
2715
1,260
10 Raonic, Milos (CAN) 
2710
5
11 Gasquet, Richard (FRA)
2635
75
12 Tsonga, Jo-Wilfried (FRA) 
2615
20


Last edited by Tenez on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:14 pm

That is looking pretty good...
I can't believe Isner is there in top 10!!!

I want to see Dolgo and Gulbis instead Grr

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:19 pm

Huuuuge gap between the top 2 and the rest.....no wonder it is the biggest rivalry of the open era....in terms of matches played!

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:20 pm

What is strange is that Djoko Fed only met in one slam final despite their many matches!!!!

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:24 pm

Yes 40 already!!!
What strikes me im that rivalry and was plain to see today is Nole's sense of superiority in that match-up.
He simply does not fear Nadal like all the rest.
Nole knows it, and perhaps even more importantly...Nadal does, as well...
Just saw that match point (again, he,he) and you can see Nadal is so scared he can't think straight...instead of going down the line with his BH towards the end of the point - he goes CC and that's the end of him!
Not even on court coaching from Toni could fix that!

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:26 pm

Tenez wrote:What is strange is that Djoko Fed only met in one slam final despite their many matches!!!!

Well...we know why that is, don't we....12/12!

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:31 pm

From now till end of FO, Nadal has 5100 points to defend, Djoko has only 1910 points to defend.

or Nadal has 3100pts to defend before the FO and Djoko 1190.

So a good chance for Djoko to overtake Nadal before the AO.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:32 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:What is strange is that Djoko Fed only met in one slam final despite their many matches!!!!

Well...we know why that is, don't we....12/12!
Yes very true...as they met a lot in slams.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by truffin1 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:04 pm

Some positive back news..  insider fan reports that are close to him team in Miami are saying he did feel back pain in the Nish match-- which prob affected him more mentally than actually phycically.... but that is was just a spasm that went away within a day or so.. Federer actually stayed in Miami and has been practicing fully with Edberg the past couple of days-- using the tournament courts...  only second time he's ever done that.. and seems to be feeling fine.   So he'll be ready for DC and it looks like he was intent on practicing hard and pushing the body to prove to himself the back is holding up... and it did.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:22 pm

Hopefully good news. He said himself he was feeling better towards the end of his Kei match. Very similar to Dubai I guess where he was having ups and down within a match.

Looking at the ranking, Murray has less than 4000 points of which 2000 are from Wimbledon. He might be in danger of dropping out of the top 10 after Wimbledon. He needs to accumulate points on clay.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:33 am

noleisthebest wrote:That is looking pretty good...
I can't believe Isner is there in top 10!!! Angry 

I want to see Dolgo and Gulbis instead Grr

Isner is in top-10 because he belongs there. He is no "serve-only" karlovic, he has a good FH and decent net play and also plays without fear of whom he is playing. He has limited weapons I agree, but they are very solid ones. 

Honestly for me its interesting to see someone with a different game than others capable of being into top-10. Inser's main weapon is serving and even with the given snail-slow courts almost everywhere, he is still managing to do good. Its quite remarkable if you see.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:34 am

I think you are being a bit harsh on Ivo... a much purer player than Isner.
Ivo did/does the only thing he could with his height: serve and volley, play with a SBH, he is not built to rally and scramble along the baseline, that just looks ridiculous.
Good thing about Isner is he does not choke.
When he loses against the very best, it's because they outplayed/outmanouvered him; he has always had a nice, balanced competitive mind, and yes those matches can be quite edge of the seat style!
As for top 10, we all have our wishes and ideas...mine is to have as many flairful and talented but competitive players as possible, but you are right, they have all earnt those points and are there on that merit, incl. Ferrer.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:06 pm

I also agree that Karlo is better than he looks. First he has a much better serve than Isner even though both are tall. That's a sign of "some" talent. And yes his single handed BH is also testimony of some natural skills in that era. 

His career was plagued with injuries and some really bad ones. Had he been a bit more healthy, I am pretty sure he would have done much better.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:28 pm

I wonder if and when this "athletic" era is going to end....it's not going to be easy with DBH being the main "school" of tennis...
Still, there are quite a few natural players around, and I enjoy watching them even if they have wild FHs like Gulbis.
In a way I am and am not looking forward to clay season; half the tour seem to be injured, Rome is always fun to watch as well as Monte Carlo, except that now it's not compulsory so Fed doesn't play it.

Roland Garros should be good, but I don't think I could survive another Nadal biting trophy sight though...

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:42 pm

It's never going to end. It started in the open era with Borg, if not before....and it's been getting more and more physical. However I think conds can change so that the physical factor might not be as detrimental. 

As we said many times, it's a very thin line as one player can actually make one pace condition too extreme. Nadal on slow courts is as bad as Karlo/Isner on faster courts. That's why I liked your idea of SHBH only....with this there woudl be no players too kin to extend rallies...except Federer and Stan maybe.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:55 pm

Looking at the current next generation, I am really not looking forward to watching tennis in a few years time tbh...
The game has mutated so badly on the inside with all the "latest" technology etc, it's completely filtering out proper tennis talent that will carry the torch over...
Only Thiem looks physically normal and robust enough to last a full season, maybe Dimitrov..Raonic is too big and fragile because of his size, JJ, too....
Big hitters are good only as banana skins, I can't envisage them dominate...maybe they will be just a bridge to the generation that will come after them...

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:08 pm

Yes correct, big frames will be plugged with injuries. Look at Murray, he is already struggling before being able to reach his peak. The mistery is your man though 6'2 is really the closest possible as to being big and mobile. I believe Lendl was same size...but now it is even more physically demanding.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:15 pm

Nole is tall, but not big.
He is a natural athlete unlike Murray who is quite artificial. One look at their legs and you get the answer why Nole hasn't struggled with injuries.

I just look at how they all walk: Fed, Nole and Nadal...all great natural athletes with lovely posture.

Nadal beefed up his biceps artificially, but his leg movement has always been there, he is like a bullet and always well balanced.

Fed has perfect movement for attacking game.
Nole's movement is tailor made for modern DBH game on slower, (but not slow) hard courts.

Murray doesn't have a game and as a result doesn't have movement, either...he just runs and runs, and then runs some more....

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:00 pm

Murray anticipates and reads the game very well....most of the time.

Djoko's record on slow HC is pretty good though.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:04 pm

Murray's  anticipation is useless because all it does is helps him to be balanced on his next push-back shot...he is reading the game backwards...imagine if he had a forehand and guts!
Poor Lendl, no wonder he left, he did a miracle with Murray winning TWO slams!

Remember the years and years of him never being able to do it...and he wouldn't have without Ivan.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Daniel on Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:42 pm

I don't think Ivan really made that much of a difference.  Luck did.  Olympics he played Federer who had just played longest 3 setter in history against Del Potro.  Lucky.  Wimbledon he played Djokovic who had come off a mammoth 5 setter against Del Potro.  And US OPen was played in a tornado.

You can argue that Murray is a better wind player than Djokovic, and so deserved his win, but that is just small fry excuse.  The truth is, Murray got extraordinarily lucky.  Yes, he won and that's that, but he certainly did not have to play peak opponents in any of those finals.

He should be sending christmas present to Del Potro for two of them haha

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by bluenose on Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:02 pm

I wish that people wouldn't generalize about height, and automatically label Milos as "too big" and therefore extraordinarily subject to injury.  He is the same height as Berdych and Tomic but weighs less than both, one inch shorter than Del Potro and 20 pounds lighter, same height as Paire but 20 pounds heavier.  It's very hard to draw any conclusions.

Like JJ, he was catapulted into the tour and main draws and seedings without much experience of matches at that level, and he was not finished with his physical development.  His body took a lot of punishment because he was asking it to do things he hadn't really prepared for.  Now he is training for the big leagues and I see no reason to expect him to be more fragile than, say, Berdych.  Accidents can happen - even Federer has been hobbled in his career - but to think he will break down because of height is not sensible.

He doesn't get all passionate and swing for the fences, true, but he's a thinker and every match enriches his intellectual storehouse.  I remember when he was first coming up it seemed he ran into Roger every time in the second or third round of tournaments, and he played with belief because he understood Roger's pure tennis game.  Played Roger close, but never got over the line of course.  With Nadal it's like a different game and he was deer-in-the-headlights until this last match when he seemed to physically understand the requirements and tactics.  Execution faltered, but belief was there.   I liked it.  He doesn't flag in his love of the game and desire to progress, never talks about being tired and needing time off.  He belongs in the top 10, and I hope he makes London this year.  Hope I do too!

And wow, nitb, Pete was surely the king of tongues!

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:54 pm

bluenose wrote:I wish that people wouldn't generalize about height, and automatically label Milos as "too big" and therefore extraordinarily subject to injury.  He is the same height as Berdych and Tomic but weighs less than both, one inch shorter than Del Potro and 20 pounds lighter, same height as Paire but 20 pounds heavier.  It's very hard to draw any conclusions.
That;s a testimony of Milos serving talent. I always said he was more talented than Berdych and probably Delpo....but he has plateaued recently, probably due to injuries....but then again that's often the problem of tall people.

Like JJ, he was catapulted into the tour and main draws and seedings without much experience of matches at that level, and he was not finished with his physical development.  His body took a lot of punishment because he was asking it to do things he hadn't really prepared for.  Now he is training for the big leagues and I see no reason to expect him to be more fragile than, say, Berdych.  Accidents can happen - even Federer has been hobbled in his career - but to think he will break down because of height is not sensible.

He doesn't get all passionate and swing for the fences, true, but he's a thinker and every match enriches his intellectual storehouse.  I remember when he was first coming up it seemed he ran into Roger every time in the second or third round of tournaments, and he played with belief because he understood Roger's pure tennis game.  Played Roger close, but never got over the line of course.  With Nadal it's like a different game and he was deer-in-the-headlights until this last match when he seemed to physically understand the requirements and tactics.  Execution faltered, but belief was there.   I liked it.  He doesn't flag in his love of the game and desire to progress, never talks about being tired and needing time off.  He belongs in the top 10, and I hope he makes London this year.  Hope I do too!

My main worry for milos is actally his mind. He has the physiology of a doubter and I fear his doubts will keep coming in those important pressure times. I wrote something about it in another thread last week...It's going to be difficult to build some mental strength.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by bluenose on Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:54 am

I could grant psychology of a doubter, but physiology?  Sorry, we're Canadian.

But seriously, he can never be a bully it just isn't in us.  He'll do it his way.  Borg did, out of nothing.

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Re: Federer's chance to return to top 4 if not top 3 soon.

Post by Tenez on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:57 am

Oops I did not mean physiology...I meant morphology!

You may find that more exuberant even but that's what I see when I see Rao.

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