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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:21 pm

Tenez wrote:Step is really great to watch...but again...Fed's serve is terrible.

Watching him serve for the match, he was so relaxed and served great first two points, then the crowd went wild thinking he got the ace in the third point, and he got all tight again...

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:22 pm

Tenez wrote:Yes but it's clear there is something wrong with fed again. He simply cannot serve.

Plus he seems to have a belly now....or it is his heating belt?

I noticed too a few games ago, then his bare belly flashed on his serve, so no, no thermal belt.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:22 pm

Well clearly Fed is out of shape again.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:28 pm

I missed the last game typing here Yikes

I'm so glad he won, belly or not (maybe it's the Mirka syndrome Winking. )

Against Jaziri tomorrow, remember him from last year, Fed lost the 1st set, the guy had a heavily strapped upper leg?

Nole next against Agut, should be interesting, as Agut has a very quick FH.

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Post by truffin1 on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:46 pm

I haven't seen the match guys- but reports all over his website forum he was wincing and stretching the back between points... Anyone see if he was hampered?  IF it is the back and continues to be so fragile- there isn't much hope.. Glad to see he gutted it out.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:56 pm

Yes clearly his back as his serve was so soft. It was easier for him to break Step's serve than to serve!

I think he realises it won't go away...despite what he says!

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Post by truffin1 on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:05 pm

Tenez wrote:Yes clearly his back as his serve was so soft. It was easier for him to break Step's serve than to serve!

I think he realises it won't go away...despite what he says!

Sad- I keep wanting to believe him... but have seen many an athlete try to "will" away an injury that just won't.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:07 pm

I noticed a wince when he stretched on ONE very low wide BH and a few meaningful looks towards his box after that.
DFs didn't look good.
I think he's learnt to live with the back and clearly has on and off times with it, so long as it doesn't play on his mind in big matches...
But he is so experienced, he knows how to manouver it if it isn't too bad.
And I hope it never  gets too bad like last year.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:43 pm

Yes on and off....but the offs seem more regular than ever. I think it is as bad as last year.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:46 pm

Easier than I though for Nole tonight.
He is definitely saving energy on his groundstrokes esp FH, compared to before.
Just did the bare minimum, kept the opponentinned back with his usual deep shots, Agut really had no chance.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:56 pm

Tenez wrote:Yes on and off....but the offs seem more regular than ever. I think it is as bad as last year.

Sad

Is it because of the lack of suppleness in his movement?
I am never sure whether it's the back or that's because his game is not yet fully tuned, he has spells where he plays with the wind in his sails and all is great and then seizes up and the wind is gone, you can see doubt and messed up shot selection.

I have never played with a bad back, only once pulled a muscle in the middle rib area and had to stop as spasms started getting worse.
Someone gave me some anti-inflammatory spray to patch me up as I had to cycle back home, and when I made it there somehow,  a nice not bath followed by tons of paracetamol.
That was a MTO DIY style  Big Grin 

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Post by truffin1 on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:26 pm

One of the RF gang that follows him to tournaments said they saw Luthi after the match and asked if Roger was okay. He gave them the so/so sign with his hand.

wcr" wrote:

 We waited by gate for Roger and family to come out, but only Sevrin appeared and went to car.  Krist asked him if Roger was feeling okay and he waved his hand back and forth to us....  so so....    Hopefully just a tweak, but this brings back memories of the past year we've had to go through!

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Post by truffin1 on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:32 pm

This is all I can find from Fed post match where of course he doesn't mention any issues..
I couldn't find the right balance between offence and defence.[/b]

Yes that is one thing....I mean allowing Step to have a look in the match.....but had Fed served half as well as he could have.....Step would have lost 62 63.

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Post by Daniel on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:49 pm

Whether it is the back or not, the dude has been finished a long time at his best and he knows it. There's nothing you can do about father time, and bad backs are all part of it.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:07 pm

truffin1 wrote:This is all I can find from Fed post match where of course he doesn't mention any issues..
I couldn't find the right balance between offence and defence.[/b]

Yes that is one thing....I mean allowing Step to have a look in the match.....but had Fed served half as well as he could have.....Step would have lost 62 63.
Sorry Truffin...I edited instead of quoted....so I deleted most of your post by mistake...not sure how to correct it.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:08 pm

FedererKing wrote:Whether it is the back or not, the dude has been finished a long time at his best and he knows it.  There's nothing you can do about father time, and bad backs are all part of it.
Well yes but how can you explain that the guy who troubled him today is actually 3 years older than him?

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Post by Daniel on Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:39 pm

Age affects everyone differently.  Every player hits the ball differently, runs differently, has different weight, different genes.  It's a mass of unknowns.  Age will affect one player differently to another.  And bad luck can also  make life harder later in life as well.

Then don't forget, Federer is the greatest (or second greatest if you want to factor in Borg, depending on your argument). Those 17 slams did not arrive on a plate. He's put far more work in, and he's played far more matches (I am guessing he has played far more matches? Anyone got a stat?).

You are comparing chalk and cheese.  Also... bad days at the office do happen, even at one's peak.

Age is going to have a much bigger effect on Federer because of the sheer number of games he has played. Nadal will fare even worse. That guy is damaging his health.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:03 am

FedererKing wrote:Whether it is the back or not, the dude has been finishedv a long time at his best and he knows it.  There's nothing you can do about father time, and bad backs are all part of it.

Is that because he hasn't won a slam since Wimbledon 2012?

Nole hasn't won a slam since AO 13 (6 months after Wimbledon '12), not to mention Delpo...




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Post by Daniel on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:25 am

No that's because from 2008 onwards he won far less, and looked far less convincing than 2004-7.  It's also biological fact that all humans are in far worse physical shape by 30 than they were at 20.  It's also statistical fact that all tennis greats did worse when they reached around 28.

Federer 2004-7 (age 22-25)

Slams won: 11.  Finals played: 13

Federer 2008-present: (age 26-32)

Slams won: 5.  Finals played: 10.

Federer 2010-present (28-32)

Slams won: 2.  Finals played: 3

There's no getting away from this.

After this year, it's BYE to Parera.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:38 am

[quote="FedererKing"]No that's because from 2008 onwards he won far less, and looked far less convincing than 2004-7.  It's also biological fact that all humans are in far worse physical shape by 30 than they were at 20 It's also statistical fact that all tennis greats did worse when they reached around 28.

I disagree completely.

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Post by BEL19VE on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:39 am

FedererKing correct on both arguments here.
Apart from the 'after this year' in your last line which is underlined, that should read 'after this month'.

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Post by BEL19VE on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:50 am

Tenez wrote:
FedererKing wrote:Whether it is the back or not, the dude has been finished a long time at his best and he knows it.  There's nothing you can do about father time, and bad backs are all part of it.
Well yes but how can you explain that the guy who troubled him today is actually 3 years older than him?
OK, this is my view on the issue on more detail, and I think it would explain your above question. Also if I may add I think the vast majority of Federer fans will agree with my position than they will on yours on this issue (about Federer declining with age).

-As athletes body gets older and they have more wear and tear of playing matches, on average (most of the time) will start to lose their spring in their step and sharpness in movement and reflexes.
-Furthermore at an older age, with great mileage of matches played, mentally keeping a high intensity for longer periods of time is more difficult. Federer has shown signs of that, with more ups and downs compared to when he was in his prime.
-Moreover when the body is older, injuries are more likely to occur, and it take longer to recover from them.
-This applies to the vast majority of players, however I am aware there may be a few rare exceptions. Haas is not one of them though, as his match-playing time was limited in his 20's due to injuries.

-As for your question of how Stepanek troubled him today despite being 3 years older, the reason is this:
~~~let's say Federer's level during his prime is 95/100; while Stepanek's is 85/100. As they both play consistently on a day to day basis in their prime, Federer is likely to win the vast majority of matches they play.
~~~however when they are both older, they will both tend to fluctuate more. In terms of H2H, this will BENEFIT the WORSE player, in this case Stepanek. The reason for this is simple, let's say Federer fluctuates now between 80-97 (out of 100), and Stepaek fluctuates between 70-87. So thus there will be more occasions where Stepanek's level is close to or even higher than Federer (if Stepanek can get himself over 80, and Federer drops below that), while as I have shown at their prime as they are more consistent the stronger player (Federer) is favoured.
That is why it's more likely Stepanek can trouble Federer when they're both old compared to when they're both around prime, due to greater possible fluctuations in both their performances.

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Post by Daniel on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:14 am

As I said before, it's also the number of games they've played. Federer has punished his body over the years far more.

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Post by BEL19VE on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:29 am

FedererKing wrote:As I said before, it's also the number of games they've played.  Federer has punished his body over the years far more.
I did note that, hence my specific reference to Haas who has not played as many games as he could have in his 20's due to long term injury problems.

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Post by Daniel on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:19 am

Fair enough.  Peace Dove 

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:32 am

Match(es) of the day:

Tsonga - Berdych
Djokovic - Youzhny
Federer - Rosol
Gulbis - Dimitrov
Murray - Simon


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Post by BEL19VE on Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:31 am

Such a shame I can't watch Tsonga Berdych, that should be a cracker.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:11 am

FedererKing wrote:Age affects everyone differently.  Every player hits the ball differently, runs differently, has different weight, different genes.  It's a mass of unknowns.  Age will affect one player differently to another.  And bad luck can also  make life harder later in life as well.

Then don't forget, Federer is the greatest (or second greatest if you want to factor in Borg, depending on your argument). Those 17 slams did not arrive on a plate. He's put far more work in, and he's played far more matches (I am guessing he has played far more matches? Anyone got a stat?).

You are comparing chalk and cheese.  Also... bad days at the office do happen, even at one's peak.

Age is going to have a much bigger effect on Federer because of the sheer number of games he has played.  Nadal will fare even worse.  That guy is damaging his health.
So 62 first set then during the change over at 62 Fed ages more than 3 years to actually look even older than Step?

I think we have to be rational when discussing those things. Is Murray having a back problem cause he is getting older too? Same for all those players who had to retire from the game in their 20s?

Doesn't make sense. There is age on one side..and there is injury on the other. back injuries may increase with age but they still remain back injuries. Some have them others haven't got them and age is not related who it affects. Nadal had a sudden back problem in that AO final...will you put that down to age as well?

The fact is that lots of athletics records are broken by athletes in their early 30s and there is hardly anything we could see from a naked eye that a 30 yo has slowed down from a 27yo. Federer was 30 when he creamed Djoko and Murray at Wimbledon though he almost lost in earlier round due to injury....not age.

Are you saying that past 30 injuries don't exist anymore and we should only talk about age?

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Post by BEL19VE on Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:17 am

Do address the points I made Tenez. 
I think the point FK is trying to make is that when past 30 injuries occur more often due to 'wear and tear'... as by then you have played so many matches.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:07 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:Do address the points I made Tenez. 
I think the point FK is trying to make is that when past 30 injuries occur more often due to 'wear and tear'... as by then you have played so many matches.
Yes past 30 the body is probably likely to get injured more often.....but you can be 35 like Step and have no injury. The fact is an athlete recovers better at 20 than at 26...yet you cannot explain a loss at 26 based on aging....same at 32. An athlete is either injured or not.....whether you are more injured or not with age is almost irrelevant, especially for a player like Fed who can suddenly turn it on and beat anybody.

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Post by BEL19VE on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:14 pm

No, for the reasons I explained earlier in my longer post.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:47 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:No, for the reasons I explained earlier in my longer post.
You think I believe you are in an open minded state of mind keen to change views?

You are just trying to force your views so I'll miss on that one.

I noticed however than when Fed beat Murray with great display at the AO, I made a point about his age/injury and you did not challenge, you had nothing to say...suddenly he loses a set down to clearly a back problem then age comes back on the table.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:52 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:No, for the reasons I explained earlier in my longer post.

You seem to use words in a generalising way that really don't mean anything when applied to a real on court playing situation.

So again in that "longer post", you are using one of those words- fluctuation- and trying to sweep everything under the carpet with it, two completely different players with different careers, adding equally meaningless numbers to somehow make your "argument" more convincing plausible...but it's not.

There is no point trying to explain something you don't understand, it's better to admit you don't know something and try to understand it by reading/listening someone who does.

It's not patronising, just simple practical advice. There is absolutely no shame not knowing things and asking questions if you genuinely want to learn, but it looks ridiculous if you are proud to admit you don't (which is obvious to those who can see it easily) and not only spin some far-fetched non-existing simplistic theories, but then go a level further and dismiss/ignore really excellent, patient analysis.

You won't go far with that attitude, try a bit of humility, it's so much easier to live without the burden of "knowing it all", because none of us do.

Just relax, Amri!

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:48 pm

Youzhny gives Djokovic a w/o.
Pretty disappointing esp after Davydenko's one yesterday vs Tsonga.

So Tsonga - Berdych at 3 PM, followed by Federer - Rosol.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:52 pm

Just started watching at 4:5, and what a terrible service game from Tsonga...

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Post by Tenez on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:02 pm

yes...looked like he had a back problem too. ...Or maybe getting too old.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:18 pm

Is it just me, or did they just show a wrong mark on the hawkeye?
Berdych's BH landed in the corner and the hawkeye showed it to be at least 1/2 on the baseline...

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:24 pm

Tenez wrote:yes...looked like he had a back problem too. ...Or maybe getting too old.

I noticed Tsonga hasn't been himself for quite some time. I think Rasheed was a bad mistake. Didn't do a thing for his game, but may have ruined his body trying to make him fitter.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:34 pm

...and now both playing some really lazy, cautious, base-line CC tennis...like neither are prepared to go and win the match, yet don't want to lose either, Monday morning syndrome on a Thursday night?

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Post by Tenez on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:40 pm

An ugly match. Both players look unfit....discoordinated.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:45 pm

Yes, that's why Federer is so good to watch, he just does not cut corners, even when playing injured.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:49 pm

Bottom half of the draw looking really misbalanced now with Del Potro out with injury...
A potential Djokovic - Federer SF vs Kohlschreiber - Berdych...

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Post by Tenez on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:52 pm

I don't see Rosol giving fed more trouble than Step....however we will see how fed can recover from a back problem. I am pretty sure he asked to be last today to get that extra resting time.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:55 pm

Fed's always dealt with Rosol type of players with ease.

He was best returner in the game until the back injury last year.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:12 pm

Was he? I think prior to 2007 he was but when they started to be able to stand from 4m back and return then I think he lost that spot.

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Post by BEL19VE on Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:14 pm

noleisthebest wrote:

He was  best returner in the game  until the back injury last year.
Better than Djokovic or Murray?

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Post by BEL19VE on Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:16 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
There is no point trying to explain something you don't understand, it's better to admit you don't know something and try to understand it by reading/listening someone who does.
Absolutely, and why don't you follow your own advice then on that one?

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:17 pm

Tenez wrote:Was he? I think prior to 2007 he was but when they started to be able to stand from 4m back and return then I think he lost that spot.
Of course he was.
I'll never forget how Federer dispatched Isner with ease in the IW 2012 final, Isner having beaten Nole in the previous SF match.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:19 pm

It's bizarre how one of the greatest server of all time now can't win his serve...even against Rosol!

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:21 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:

He was  best returner in the game  until the back injury last year.
Better than Djokovic or Murray?

Absolutely!
Don't you remember?
Nole's returning is very good, Murray is not bad, his BH return is his best shot on return, but not a lot of variation other than that, probably quite overrated in fact, like the rest of his game.
Federer was sublime, always on the baseline, even with his SBH...that's quite something!

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