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Australian Open 2014 : MOTD : Day 14 Men's Final

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Post by gallery play on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:31 pm

luvsports! wrote:Why?  
Feds can outplay nadal on any surface for at least a set e.g. FO '06 6-1 set.
Watch those matches, it really doesn't show up at all. 
See if you cannot remember or have even seen it, why are you defending it? 
Either say you don't know and without doing the research I cannot say instead of blindly defending Nadal? This really does not do you any favours. 
I am not hatah and on reflection I feel I can be quite objective (still subjective Winking but still!)
He wasn't injured and he did it to wrestle the momentum away from Feds imo. 

So nothing to do with the fact that Delpo pulled out some huge serves and great points? Not always down to rafa.

Yeah, very good point! It's perfectly fine to have different ideas but there's no point in arguing with someone who defends someone just for the sake of it.

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Post by gallery play on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:35 pm

truffin1 wrote:  It's like someone saying Ali didn't trash talk.

  Big Grin 
That was poetry, no trash Truffin  Winking

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Post by bluenose on Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:56 pm

Wamos!!!  It was great to see Stan reach out and take hold of the match from the get-go, and I thought it was very telling that he was prepared for the MTO and ready to take it to the umpire.  Is there a screen with a feed in the dressing room or treatment room or wherever Nadal went?

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:07 pm

Glad you enjoyed that BN. I think all of us here bar one poster was happy with the result. What do you make of Nadal's MTO? real or acting? that was the main debate here.

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Post by Polly 81 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:51 pm

What I was surprised about the booing when Nadal came back was that it wasn't just a few boos was it, a lot of people were booing, which means that there is a general realization that Nadal takes a lot of (tactical) MTOs. This time I think it was real, or at least he was genuinely worried about it.
That, and the fact that Stan was beating him, contributed to him getting knocked down mentally perhaps. Contrary to what people might think, but I think Nadal is actually an insecure guy.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:00 pm

Yes plus add the fact that people (the vast majority who is not as obsessed with the game as we are) want to watch Nadal play because they are told he is the best in the world, number 1, and he has energy and so on and even more so to be able to say I saw "nadal" play live.

However when the game starts I am pretty sure many realise that the gutsy player, the one taking risk is not Nadal but his opponent and naturally want him to do well. I suspect 90% of people who do know nothing about tennis would naturally support the risk taker.

So when they finally see Nadal and realise how negative his game is, they happily join with the rest of the crowd in supporting the opponent and even boo him if they notice a bit too much gamesmanship. We noticed that many times even when Nadal was playing such an uncharismatic player as Davydenko. Davy ends up having all the crowd behind him...until Nadal is out and dusted and want to have the match extended.





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Post by truffin1 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:28 pm

gallery play wrote:
truffin1 wrote:  It's like someone saying Ali didn't trash talk.

  Big Grin 
That was poetry, no trash Truffin  Winking

lol.. now that I can agree with!!

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Post by SayonaRa on Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:51 pm

bluenose wrote:Wamos!!!  It was great to see Stan reach out and take hold of the match from the get-go, and I thought it was very telling that he was prepared for the MTO and ready to take it to the umpire.  Is there a screen with a feed in the dressing room or treatment room or wherever Nadal went?

I  guess you didn't see the win he stole from Stan when they met last WTF? Nadal barely won it 76 76 only after repeated coaching from Toni. Stan protested. A mini commotion ensued but umpire did nothing.

So no wonder Stan was prepared on Sunday. He ain't getting bullied and cheated again by the king of gamesmanship. 

Meantime, so many irate Nadal fans turn things around accusing Stan being the one in the wrong!!!!!! Grr  Grr

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Post by truffin1 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:55 pm

Polly 81 wrote:What I was surprised about the booing when Nadal came back was that it wasn't just a few boos was it, a lot of people were booing, which means that there is a general realization that Nadal takes a lot of (tactical) MTOs. This time I think it was real, or at least he was genuinely worried about it.
That, and the fact that Stan was beating him, contributed to him getting knocked down mentally perhaps. Contrary to what people might think, but I think Nadal is actually an insecure guy.

It's what his fanatics don't understand-- it's the boy who cried wolf scenario many have mentioned..  Whether Nadal was really hurt or not, he's faked it so many times- the 1st thing the crowd and viewers think is- he's faking it.  That's pretty telling.  The guy has no credibility anymore and people who follow tennis know it.  The general public- they are sheep that only read what the publicists, ATP lets out-   so he still gets away with it.. but if you pay attention to the sport- only a Nadal fanatic can think he's fair and doesn't cheat.

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Post by bluenose on Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:14 pm

I think Nadal is a profoundly negative person in general.  He seems desperate to not-lose rather than focussed on winning, and when he is ahead he looks snarly and fierce and over-celebrates points as though he is conquering personal demons.  When he is behind his face looks so sad and vulnerable, and he gets the deer-in-the-headlights look.  In some ways he seems very fragile.

I think he is always hyper-aware of physical weaknesses and ready to call for MTO, and I think that delaying tactics have always been part of his strategy because 1) it disrupts his opponent's momentum and rhythm, 2) it gives him a feeling of control again, and 3) he has stated plainly that when being outplayed he needs time, needs to wait for the level to drop. 

So I believe the MTO was for real reasons in his mind but it seems not so much in his body.  The converse of "a fully fit Nadal never loses" is "a not fully fit Nadal never wins", and I think it terrifies him when his body doesn't feel right.  No doubt he was hurt by the booing as the "injury" felt real to him and he expected sympathy.

I'd sure like to know what went through Pete's mind!

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:09 pm

Excellent post BN! Completely in agreement a "not fully fit Nadal never wins" is spot on.
 
regarding your 3 points about his time taking, to me the first reason I mentioned 6 or 7 years ago to which he admitted a couple of years ago....was simply to recover enough O2 in his blood...to have that energy so important to his game. I am sure that as a biologist it makes lots of sense for you too. You just need to remember the cylcles of mitochondries which provide the energy to our muscles to understand why he needs so much O2 and why he sweats so much!

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Post by Polly 81 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:58 pm

bluenose wrote:I think Nadal is a profoundly negative person in general.  He seems desperate to not-lose rather than focussed on winning, and when he is ahead he looks snarly and fierce and over-celebrates points as though he is conquering personal demons.  When he is behind his face looks so sad and vulnerable, and he gets the deer-in-the-headlights look.  In some ways he seems very fragile.

I think he is always hyper-aware of physical weaknesses and ready to call for MTO, and I think that delaying tactics have always been part of his strategy because 1) it disrupts his opponent's momentum and rhythm, 2) it gives him a feeling of control again, and 3) he has stated plainly that when being outplayed he needs time, needs to wait for the level to drop. 

So I believe the MTO was for real reasons in his mind but it seems not so much in his body.  The converse of "a fully fit Nadal never loses" is "a not fully fit Nadal never wins", and I think it terrifies him when his body doesn't feel right.  No doubt he was hurt by the booing as the "injury" felt real to him and he expected sympathy.

I'd sure like to know what went through Pete's mind!
Yes exactly! That's exactly the way I feel, but you put into words better than I could. I actually feel sorry for him.

I think the reason behind all of this is Toni, I think he gave him that 'winning mentality'. Psychologically I don't like that. The drive needs to come from the player, not installed by someone else, otherwise it gets complicated. He's not happy unless he wins, because he feels he has to win everything. That is what he was taught. Even when he won a championship as a child, Toni pointed out the negatives. While its good to have some constructive criticism, too much negative can have psychological implications. Otherwise, I feel Nadal would've been an easy going non competitive guy, just happy being with his family, fishing in Spain.

Imagine what would happen if he changed to another coach.

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Post by bluenose on Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:43 pm

Yes Polly, I can't help feeling some sympathy when he looks so confused and panicky even though I know that otherwise he is a terrible bully on the court.

Tenez, I agree about your reason for extra time between points but I wonder whether the urge to get off the court for a bit that hits him when he's threatened has more to do with calming his heart rate or something.  Maybe it's just plain old fight or flight syndrome!

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:28 pm

The extra taking time I was alluding was him taking over the 25s allowed during all his career...not that MTO of course.

I know what Pete was thinking! "Cool! still number 2!!!" From the interviews I read or heard from him and even following him during his 12 years on tour I know he has a huge ego. I think Fed would be gutted to have his number broken as well....probably not when he is 40+ but for now Fed would be bitter to have Nadal overtaking him.....a good subject for a new thread!

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:28 pm

Tenez wrote:The extra taking time I was alluding was his taking over the 25s during all his career...not that MTO of course.

I know what Pete was thinking! "Cool! still number 2!!!" From the interviews I read or heard from him and even following him during his 12 years on tour I know he has a huge ego. I think Fed would be gutted to have his number broken as well....probably not when he is 40+ but for now Fed would be bitter to have Nadal overtaking him.....a good subject for a new thread!

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Post by truffin1 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:46 pm

Tenez wrote:
Tenez wrote:The extra taking time I was alluding was his taking over the 25s during all his career...not that MTO of course.

I know what Pete was thinking! "Cool! still number 2!!!" From the interviews I read or heard from him and even following him during his 12 years on tour I know he has a huge ego. I think Fed would be gutted to have his number broken as well....probably not when he is 40+ but for now Fed would be bitter to have Nadal overtaking him.....a good subject for a new thread!


You are right about Sampras. He even admitted that it took him some time and reflection to come to grips with Federer blowing out so many of his records so quickly.  He even had a few negative things to say at first, but then I think he got his head right and suddenly became a huge fan of Fed.  They even practice together during IW week.  I think Fed is pretty grounded and can handle it, but its just human nature to get aggravated. Certainly it will be much easier if he's retired and gone if it happens.

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Post by luvsports! on Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:59 pm

lol at this.
Frenchman and a Banana Give Nadal Quite a Scare
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/sports/tennis/04tennis.html?_r=0

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Post by bluenose on Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:16 pm

I saw that Nadal managed to work his complaints about conditions into his final interview - normally we play in normal speed conditions that I like to play, and the bounces were a little bit lower and quicker.  What's the consensus here?  Any info on the balls?

I think it is delicious that Nadal is going to get either Stan or Del Potro in his half now!  No more David, just a slugger who can push him deep with heavy heavy shots.  I think this will be a boon to Novak.  All the big hitters will be gunning for Nadal now (except Berdych I suspect, big body but small spirit it seems) and he'll feel more like a target than his favourite underdog status.  I would love to see Roger take the FO and take away that cretinous "double career slam" thing from the Nadal PR machine, but I would also welcome Novak's victory because it is a significant achievement and he has been so denied in the Fedal era.  He has no shot at records, but he could put his stamp on tennis as an all round great by taking down Nadal at the FO.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:34 pm

truffin1 wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Tenez wrote:The extra taking time I was alluding was his taking over the 25s during all his career...not that MTO of course.

I know what Pete was thinking! "Cool! still number 2!!!" From the interviews I read or heard from him and even following him during his 12 years on tour I know he has a huge ego. I think Fed would be gutted to have his number broken as well....probably not when he is 40+ but for now Fed would be bitter to have Nadal overtaking him.....a good subject for a new thread!


You are right about Sampras. He even admitted that it took him some time and reflection to come to grips with Federer blowing out so many of his records so quickly.  He even had a few negative things to say at first, but then I think he got his head right and suddenly became a huge fan of Fed.  They even practice together during IW week.  I think Fed is pretty grounded and can handle it, but its just human nature to get aggravated. Certainly it will be much easier if he's retired and gone if it happens.
yes I agree...and I think it's fed's good nature which helped Pete swallow his new "number 2 " position. Problem for fed is that he won't have that "good spirit" from Nadal, especially knowing how Nadal got there!

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:39 pm

bluenose wrote:I saw that Nadal managed to work his complaints about conditions into his final interview - normally we play in normal speed conditions that I like to play, and the bounces were a little bit lower and quicker.  What's the consensus here?  Any info on the balls?

I think it is delicious that Nadal is going to get either Stan or Del Potro in his half now!  No more David, just a slugger who can push him deep with heavy heavy shots.  I think this will be a boon to Novak.  All the big hitters will be gunning for Nadal now (except Berdych I suspect, big body but small spirit it seems) and he'll feel more like a target than his favourite underdog status.  I would love to see Roger take the FO and take away that cretinous "double career slam" thing from the Nadal PR machine, but I would also welcome Novak's victory because it is a significant achievement and he has been so denied in the Fedal era.  He has no shot at records, but he could put his stamp on tennis as an all round great by taking down Nadal at the FO.

again.... Laugh 

Agree with the second part too.

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Post by Polly 81 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:40 pm

luvsports! wrote:lol at this.
Frenchman and a Banana Give Nadal Quite a Scare
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/sports/tennis/04tennis.html?_r=0
Just for you LS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLVy77i7hxw

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Post by bluenose on Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:41 pm

Anybody know whether creatine supplements are banned by WADA?  They are myostatin inhibitors I think and so should be, but I don't know how to get a specific list.

I have taught human biology to kinesiology students, and I made them debate doping and supplements.  Such an eye-opener for me!  Most of the students were aiming at careers in athlete support and I thought it was important for them to stare deeply into the issue of chemical support, but what I got was a consensus that when you cross into professional sport - money and entertainment - you can do whatever, and you take responsibility for the risks.  No thought given at all to the talented youngsters pre-prepped by greedy agents or helicopter parents to push them into the money ranks.

Sorry to go off topic, I was just thinking about what Nadal grabbed out of his bag before running off court.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:02 am

yes he strangely hesitated about taking something...and he certainly held it in a way we could not see what it was.

the list.

http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/World_Anti-Doping_Program/WADP-Prohibited-list/2014/WADA-prohibited-list-2014-EN.pdf


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