Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» Who does she think she is?
Today at 12:18 am by Veejay

» Wimbledon 2017 Talk
Yesterday at 10:50 pm by Jahu

» Grass - 2017
Yesterday at 6:52 pm by Daniel

» U.S Election
Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:18 am by legendkillar

» The GOAT conversation will reboot...
Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:08 pm by Tenez

» Fight for #1
Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:49 am by Jahu

» Why test sportspeople for cocaine?
Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:06 pm by Daniel

» I can't fucking stand Zverev's game
Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:29 pm by ...

» Grass Season - Expectations
Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:55 am by DECIMA

June 2017
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
   1234
567891011
12131415161718
19202122232425
2627282930  

Calendar Calendar

Affiliates
free forum


ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Page 7 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by ... on Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:37 pm

Tenez wrote:Well Rosol certainly has the firepower to scare Nadal but over 5 sets? The best I have seen a SVer on clay v Nadal was Isner. He took him to 5 sets....but again teh 5th was a certainty for Nadal.

I'd still love to see it

...

Posts : 23911
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:23 pm

http://www.cincytennis.com/Players/Interviews/?intloc=headernavsub


Very interesting interesting interview from Federer after his final.



Interesting to read from Noval too though he clearly makes a concerted effort to remain vague on his mental and physcal form.

Tenez

Posts : 16038
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by paulcz on Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:00 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
laverfan wrote:
paulcz wrote:I really think that if Nadal would not play by LH, then he would hardly succeed against Fed even on clay at his best years.

Do you know Federer's h2h against Lopez or Melzer?
Fed-Melzer : 3-1
Fed-Feli Lopez : 10-0

Looks like a wum attempt from LF . All left handers do not play alike, none play like Nadal. Nadal is a unique player. While the swinging wide out serve on the AD court favors them all, they are all different in their own plays. A SHBH is vulnerable to heavy high bouncing top spinning balls, and this can't be any better than from the left hand cross court shot. Had Nadal been the same player but with a right hand he couldn't have been able to draw out errors from the Fed backhand like he has done. And we know how significant that play has been in deciding their h2h ( from Nadal's book too as some people quote)


Rotla, good point for the discussion. I thought many times about Nadal would play with RH and read some articles about it, so I came to the conclusion that this Nadal would be quite playable on clay for Fed. Yes, I quite agree that heavy topspin can demolish SHBH, but heavy topspin from LH forehand is much more efficient and poisoned than FH played DTL. I have quite vidid shots in front of my eyes from RG when Nadal started play all shots at Fed´ BH and everybody could see that especially the FHs pushed Fed from the comfort zone and made Fed to run and that was crucial, the FHs cross court were killing him. Fed opened the court and then started not catching timing and totally burnt down. Then there is one important thing, when you play the FH topspins, it is much easier to time and hit the highest quality Fed´s chops. They actually do not cause any troubles to Nadal. If you want to outplay him you need to push and make Fed to run, otherwise "Amen" with you I have my own experience when I played against only girl who ever beat me and she surprisingly played her left hand with high topspin, so I can feel my sympathies for Fed when he lost to Nadal. I can honestly say, I do not like to remember at her. It was at amateur league couple years ago, it tasted quite bitter I am playing SHBH as well

When I read an article about only Fed´ weakness, they mentioned a bit late timing for his SHBH. Let us agree or not, his SHBH has been tested the most by Nadal FH and everybody knows how these encounters ended up in most their sessions.

paulcz

Posts : 1747
Join date : 2012-07-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:50 pm

But isn;t the LHers stats (Lopy, Melzer, Verdasco, Belluci, Nieminen etc...) showing that they don't hurt Fed cause though they could try to loop it on his BH, none will have the power to send such a powerful and fizzy ball as Nadal. Federer is never beaten tactically imo. His loss are usually due to teh opponent sending him a ball he cannot control (Safin power, Nadal's spin/power) or someone able to retrieve his shots and force long rallies ending up breaking his timing.

My point is that Federer had lots of difficulty at first timing Nadal's insideout FH on his own FH. I remember at their first encounter on clay FO05 semi Fed made a lot of UEs from his FH. In fact he had to change his FH also (circa 2007) to accomodate to Nadal and then Djoko and Murray spinny shots. I agree that Had Nadal been RHed he woudl have struggled much more versus Federer cause he would have struggled finding Fed's BH and hurt him. In fact Nadal woudl have struggled against many more players....but I guess Toni knew what he was doing from the day he asked Rafa to change hand and of course that was not planned to counter Federer in particular but maximise his chance to become a successful player on teh tour. It would have been a huge risk for any player in the world to use his "un-natural" hand ....unless Toni had a clear plan from the beginning.

When I consider Toni's approach his plan seems very clear to me. He would not have asked Rafa to play LH had he not anticipated Rafa to be extraordinarily fit, able to hit hard and run miles. By playing lefty Nadal lost his natural instinct and feel to hit a tennis ball and found himself to have develop his right brain side to use his LH. Toni therefore made a deliberate attempt not to use any particular talent in Nadal but knew he woudl compensate the lack of it with exceptional power and stamina. Hitting high over the net and landing well inside the court allowing for easy angles thanks to recent strings. Then remained to find a way that fitness to hit that hard and run that much. I think being based in Spain he knew his main weapon was not Rafa as much as the sport science already available over there.

Tenez

Posts : 16038
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by paulcz on Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:06 pm

Yes Tenez, this family produce "unbelievable" things, we know

I would really want to see how Nadal would handle with Fed´s chops playing his R-DHBH with such a spin . Then his knees would have been replaced completely by artificial ones Then he would have needed to play slices often as well, but Fed´s slice against Nadal´s? That would be another story

paulcz

Posts : 1747
Join date : 2012-07-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by laverfan on Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:16 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Looks like a wum attempt from LF Run

I am not wumming. Winking

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:All left handers do not play alike, none play like Nadal. Nadal is a unique player.

Let Tenez know. Winking.

You know Lopez had MPs against Federer in Madrid. And Lopez has an SHBH as does Gasquet.

youtube.com/watch?v=178_Ycl5y8E

youtube.com/watch?v=h24D-8UzMs8

RG 2004, Guga beat Federer on Clay using an SHBH. Winking (Do we now want to have a 'maturity' argument? Winking ).


raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:While the swinging wide out serve on the AD court favors them all, they are all different in their own plays. A SHBH is vulnerable to heavy high bouncing top spinning balls, and this can't be any better than from the left hand cross court shot.

No, it is not. If Federer knew that 85% shots were/are coming to his SHBH, and was unable to solve the challenge on clay, should I question Federer's talent (== "an innate ability to make complicated things look easy" Laugh) ? RH players also have a wide-out serve and a kick-serve in both ad and deuce courts.

Watch Guga handle the high top spin BH with an SHBH - youtube.com/watch?v=t3p0ooOc2vE

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Had Nadal been the same player but with a right hand he couldn't have been able to draw out errors from the Fed backhand like he has done. And we know how significant that play has been in deciding their h2h ( from Nadal's book too as some people quote)

Sure, but is there no talent (like Djokovic) that can solve the topspin-to-SHBH challenge. Surprised that talented players are also very stubborn not to learn from their past matches. Laugh

Tenez wrote:But isn;t the LHers stats (Lopy, Melzer, Verdasco, Belluci, Nieminen etc...) showing that they don't hurt Fed cause though they could try to loop it on his BH ...

This is a wonderful observation. Just watch this... youtube.com/watch?v=R9GxXMV_FmQ (on HC) or this youtube.com/watch?v=PRI-gyJC-Ws (on Clay)

laverfan

Posts : 1070
Join date : 2012-08-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by ... on Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:24 pm

Tenez wrote:http://www.cincytennis.com/Players/Interviews/?intloc=headernavsub


Very interesting interesting interview from Federer after his final.



Interesting to read from Noval too though he clearly makes a concerted effort to remain vague on his mental and physical form.

Thanks for the link, Ten.

I am pleased that Nole said all the same as I did.
I suppose journos just want a carcass to tear to bits, and it's ugly to see how they circle and circle around at the first sign of blood.
No wonder Toni has mastered them like a real pro, he knows how to play those rats Look what he's made from Nadal: a humble, warrior champion.
And when they look at the real deal they can't wait to earn their greasy buck and suck it up to whoever pays their pay cheque....and it's certainly not Uniqlo.

I suppose between now and USO, they have to write about something, and that's brings out the worst in media: spinning rubbish/lies and over-hyping grains of half-truth into the next best thing.

Nole is very mature and is above it, he gives political answers now as he's used to playing their game. The thick lot just don't get it and keep asking and asking. Even Courir succumbed to this "mental fatigue" junk, didn't you notice how some words come and go out of fashion among pundits....first it was "nemesis" , playing "too good" etc etc...(bottom line, they are are all just trying not to sink in that busy pool as they really never can't make it in the real world). But if there is something he does not want to tell them , he will know very well how to avoid answering those questions.

I have read tens and tens of different tennis writers and all except two can't spell the word integrity.


To cut it all short, Nole is fine. REALLY

...

Posts : 23911
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by paulcz on Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:44 pm

Sometimes you just need to blow off steam and send journeys somewhere ... This will give him more aggressions and that is not bad, rather it helps him

paulcz

Posts : 1747
Join date : 2012-07-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:06 pm

LF, why don't you ever make your point clear? Why do you take the the discussion into something totally different? I'm sorry for sounding rude, but look below and you'll know.

laverfan wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:All left handers do not play alike, none play like Nadal. Nadal is a unique player.

You know Lopez had MPs against Federer in Madrid. And Lopez has an SHBH as does Gasquet.

I know Lopez had MPs against Federer in Madrid. Yes I know Lopez has and SHBH and so does Gasquet. Why was this piece of trivia required here? What's your point of hi-lighting Nadal is a unique player. and giving this trivia? Do you want to say: Nadal is NOT a unique player. Thats should mean that there are/have been other players who play like him? Do you want to say Lopez plays like Nadal? Do you want to say Gasquet plays like Nadal?

Yes they both have SHBH. When did I dispute it so that you had to come up with this 'fact'?

laverfan wrote: RG 2004, Guga beat Federer on Clay using an SHBH. Winking

Again a useless trivia. Did I say Fed can't be beaten by a SHBH player? Did I say Guga was not a SHBH player? Did I say Guga never beat Fed? Then why was this needed here?

laverfan wrote: (Do we now want to have a 'maturity' argument? Winking ).

For goodness sake, PLEASE!!! do it. Its a humble request. Rose

laverfan wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:While the swinging wide out serve on the AD court favors them all, they are all different in their own plays. A SHBH is vulnerable to heavy high bouncing top spinning balls, and this can't be any better than from the left hand cross court shot.

No, it is not. If Federer knew that 85% shots were/are coming to his SHBH, and was unable to solve the challenge on clay, should I question Federer's talent (== "an innate ability to make complicated things look easy" Laugh) ?

What is not? the vulnerability of a SHBH against a heavy spinning high bouncing ball? And all the time commentators who talk about it must be trash right? Clearly you have never played any racquet sport with the ball. Try playing if you can, then you'll know how difficult it gets if the ball rises above your shoulders and you have to keep doing it continuously.

" An opponent with a one-handed backhand is especially vulnerable to a topspin shot because it is difficult to hit a high ball with a one-handed backhand."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topspin

laverfan wrote: Watch Guga handle the high top spin BH with an SHBH - youtube.com/watch?v=t3p0ooOc2vE

1. A backhand just can't generate the kind of top spin a forehand can. Something you would have easily known had you played Tennis or Table tennis.
2. You only think Guga the 3 time RG winner could have handled Nadal on clay Laugh . Not a chance.

laverfan wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Had Nadal been the same player but with a right hand he couldn't have been able to draw out errors from the Fed backhand like he has done. And we know how significant that play has been in deciding their h2h ( from Nadal's book too as some people quote)

Sure, but is there no talent (like Djokovic) that can solve the topspin-to-SHBH challenge. Surprised that talented players are also very stubborn not to learn from their past matches. Laugh

Another strange comment. Does Djo have a SHBH? Do you see any Pro player switching from SHBH to DHBH?

raiders_of_the_lost_ark

Posts : 2763
Join date : 2012-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by laverfan on Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:59 pm

My point, which you miss completely, and follow Tenez's lead in attacking me, rather than using the facts I have stated, makes me wonder why I tried it in the first place.

1. There are players not named Nadal, who attack Federer's SHBH, and do not make as much headway as Nadal, hence Nadal is a unique player, who can hit extra shot and target the SHBH. Hence my comment. Gasquet and Lopez handle the topspin to their BH, by giving up baseline control, that Federer is unwilling to do.

2. Bruguera, is the closest to Nadal in terms of energy and rpms imparted to the ball. Kuerten has beaten Bruguera on clay all three times they met. Here is an unreliable internet fact - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=B350&oId=K293 . Kuerten, with an SHBH, learned to handle the attack to his SHBH very well.

3. An SHBH can handle the topspin, which a talented Federer has been unable to solve only on clay. On a lower-bouncing HC, he has bagelled Nadal, as well as on Grass.

4. The WiKipedia quote is an opinion by the author. Many commentators have said the same thing. I personally disagree. Specifically in Federer's case, timing is critical because he tries to take the ball early. He also showed the ability against Djokovic (on HC) to hit a run-around-FH. He is a risk-taker after all.

5. Djokovic with a DHBH has had some success on clay against Nadal on clay in 2011 (not in 2012), but Murray with a DHBH has not had the same success, so all DHBHs (SHBHs, by the same token) are not created equal.

Does that make my points clear?

laverfan

Posts : 1070
Join date : 2012-08-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by Tenez on Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:50 am

laverfan wrote:Gasquet and Lopez handle the topspin to their BH, by giving up baseline control, that Federer is unwilling to do.
You serious? How many sets have they taken on clay of Nadal? If you can handle Nadal's CC, Nadal is dead. It;s his only weapon with his lungs. The fact is Fed is the only SHBH with Almagro able to take sets of Nadal on clay.....but Fed does it best of them all.

2. Bruguera, is the closest to Nadal in terms of energy and rpms imparted to the ball. Kuerten has beaten Bruguera on clay all three times they met. Here is an unreliable internet fact - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=B350&oId=K293 . Kuerten, with an SHBH, learned to handle the attack to his SHBH very well.

PLease pay attention to details....Kuerten was actually the first to use the new strings (luxilon) and therefore it was easy for him to control the spinny ball of Bruguera (using natural gut) while himself adding his own power and spin onto the ball. The situation is completely different with Fed who deals with a much more powerful and spinny ball than Kuerten had to.

3. An SHBH can handle the topspin, which a talented Federer has been unable to solve only on clay. On a lower-bouncing HC, he has bagelled Nadal, as well as on Grass.
No he does it on clay too...but not over 4 or 5 sets....that's the problems cause rallies are longer. Same problem on HC cause he had not won Nadal in a HC slam afa I know.....again pay attention to details.

Tenez

Posts : 16038
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:09 am

laverfan wrote:My point, which you miss completely, and follow Tenez's lead in attacking me, rather than using the facts I have stated, makes me wonder why I tried it in the first place.

1. So now its my fault to miss your point; the point which you didn't clearly mention. Am I the only one who misses your point? How many posters do I see on the forums over the years saying they don't get you. Something must be wrong with the world isn't it?
2. I don't follow Tenez or anyone. He is different person and so am I. Why do you say I attack you? Kindly give instances where I attacked you.
3. Stated facts? Thats why I wanted to know. Why were those 'facts' needed when they were just not relevant in the discussion.

laverfan wrote:1. There are players not named Nadal, who attack Federer's SHBH, and do not make as much headway as Nadal, hence Nadal is a unique player, who can hit extra shot and target the SHBH. Hence my comment. Gasquet and Lopez handle the topspin to their BH, by giving up baseline control, that Federer is unwilling to do.

So Gasquet (RH and SHBH) and Lopez ( LH SHBH being lefty avoids the forehand-to-backhand-attack which must be an advantage. Nadal hits very flat on the BH. Still) must be having better success against Nadal on clay? But do they? Do you see Gasquet giving up any baseline control in his matches against nadal? Laugh He stays 3-4m behind and takes the ball so late, which allows him more time and the reduced power on spin and the ball downward trajectory. This is a highly defensive play which Fed doesn't employ, because it won't work against Nadal the proof of which is in Nadal-Gasquet h2h. Lopez is almost handicap on his backhand, all he can do is slice when it goes in, the rest is dumped in the net. Does he give any baseline play? At rare times and mostly when he is serving.

laverfan wrote: 2. Bruguera, is the closest to Nadal in terms of energy and rpms imparted to the ball. Kuerten has beaten Bruguera on clay all three times they met. Here is an unreliable internet fact - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=B350&oId=K293 . Kuerten, with an SHBH, learned to handle the attack to his SHBH very well.

1. Did I not tell you that a backhand just can't generate even close to the kind of topspin the forehand can? Or do you also disagree here? Burguera maybe closest to Nadal in terms of energy and rpms imparted, but was he able to do it off both wings? Burguera was a right-handed, a so was Guga. Did it matter? YES!!! . Had Burgera been a lefty, Guga couldn't have attacked any of that SHBH. In fact he himself could have been at the receiving end.

laverfan wrote:3. An SHBH can handle the topspin, which a talented Federer has been unable to solve only on clay. On a lower-bouncing HC, he has bagelled Nadal, as well as on Grass.
4. The WiKipedia quote is an opinion by the author. Many commentators have said the same thing. I personally disagree. Specifically in Federer's case, timing is critical because he tries to take the ball early. He also showed the ability against Djokovic (on HC) to hit a run-around-FH. He is a risk-taker after all.

Fine if you disagree. Nor surprised here, as I said, if you had played you would have known. Imagination and reality are different.

laverfan wrote: 5. Djokovic with a DHBH has had some success on clay against Nadal on clay in 2011 (not in 2012), but Murray with a DHBH has not had the same success, so all DHBHs (SHBHs, by the same token) are not created equal.

Did I say anything about Djo's DHBH and Murray's DHBH and how successful it is against Nadal? Did I say anything about all DHBH being created equal? Did I say all SHBH being created equal? Why is this irrelevant point in our original context which was :

---------------
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
laverfan wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Had Nadal been the same player but with a right hand he couldn't have been able to draw out errors from the Fed backhand like he has done. And we know how significant that play has been in deciding their h2h ( from Nadal's book too as some people quote)

Sure, but is there no talent (like Djokovic) that can solve the topspin-to-SHBH challenge. Surprised that talented players are also very stubborn not to learn from their past matches. Laugh

Another strange comment. Does Djo have a SHBH? Do you see any Pro player switching from SHBH to DHBH?

-------------------

laverfan wrote:Does that make my points clear?

At least its clear that you never make your points clear.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark

Posts : 2763
Join date : 2012-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by laverfan on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:28 pm

Tenez wrote:No he does it on clay too...but not over 4 or 5 sets....that's the problems cause rallies are longer. Same problem on HC cause he had not won Nadal in a HC slam afa I know.....again pay attention to details.

Rome 2006. Laugh

Tenez wrote:Kuerten was actually the first to use the new strings (luxilon) and therefore it was easy for him to control the spinny ball of Bruguera (using natural gut) while himself adding his own power and spin onto the ball. The situation is completely different with Fed who deals with a much more powerful and spinny ball than Kuerten had to.

Federer uses both types of strings, IIIRC. He uses Luxilon BB ALU rough on the crosses 16L, and for the mains he uses Natural Gut 16. Again, pay attention to details. Winking

Also:
http://www.fawcette.net/2012/02/federer-hits-with-more-spin-than-nadal-.html (From the untrusted, unreliable information source that is the Internet).

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Do you see Gasquet giving up any baseline control in his matches against nadal? He stays 3-4m behind and takes the ball so late, which allows him more time and the reduced power on spin and the ball downward trajectory.

Standing 3-4m behind the baseline is not giving up base line control. Marvellous observation. Winking

Also, and I quote,
Tenez wrote:Look at Gasquet v Federer....both are very talented and attacking players....but Federer plays much closer to teh baseline, and is therefore taking more risk (tougher to time the ball therefore more "courageous")...and guess what you see clearly whom is stronger mentally.
- http://ourtennisforum.forumotion.co.uk/t69p30-tennis-the-mental-game#2931


raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:This is a highly defensive play which Fed doesn't employ, because it won't work against Nadal the proof of which is in Nadal-Gasquet h2h.

Why does Federer not? Is he talented or not? Laugh

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Nor surprised here, as I said, if you had played you would have known. Imagination and reality are different.

Why do you say I attack you? Kindly give instances where I attacked you.

Is that a good enough example? Winking There is no need for us to discuss our life experiences here, is it? (On the untrusted, unreliable information source that is the Internet).


Last edited by laverfan on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edited for reference.)

laverfan

Posts : 1070
Join date : 2012-08-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 7 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum