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A response to luvsports- why we should proceed with caution before heralding a far less successful player more talented

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Post by bluenose on Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:40 pm

Let's face it, the argument is always fedal.  It's not about winning vs losing but about talent vs anti-talent.  Nadal's game was built to vanquish Federer, and he maybe sacrificed a lot in order to do that.  I have to say that Nadal is only compelling when he plays Federer, not always but some matches have drawn things from him that show him to have qualities not seen otherwise. 

I also acknowledge that the rivalry and the Cult of the Warrior have increased the tennis audience manyfold, but I don't accept that taking down an exemplar is a victory.  The joy of sport is the free expression of the talented outlier, the surprise and delight not the predictable bludgeoning and slogging.  The western canon is laden with the celebrated vanquished, it's who we are.

If anyone really want a genetics debate, I'm up for it.

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Post by summerblues on Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:58 pm

bluenose wrote:If anyone really want a genetics debate, I'm up for it.
Is that not right up your alley?  You would have an unfair advantage - we all would have to wing it on talent alone while you have had plenty of training.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:01 am

I like genetics too. I studied it in depth ....some 25 years ago.

One question I have though linked directly to talents is what makes the electrical pulse move quicker in some athletes than others....or is it actually a level of awareness that allows a better analyse of those electrical pulses?

Cause one thing for sure is that though talent can be sometimes genetically transmitted, pure genius isn't....it seems to be coming from another level.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:04 am

summerblues wrote:
bluenose wrote:If anyone really want a genetics debate, I'm up for it.
Is that not right up your alley?  You would have an unfair advantage - we all would have to wing it on talent alone while you have had plenty of training.

Good one SB! What is your forte? Stats if I remember? genetics and stats really go hand in hand actually.

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Post by summerblues on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:11 am

Tenez wrote:Good one SB! What is your forte? Stats if I remember? genetics and stats really go hand in hand actually.
Yes, stats/maths combo education-wise, mostly stats nowadays.  Genetics may go hand-in-hand with that but that unfortunately does not make me knowledgeable in that field smiley.  What is your area of professional expertise, btw?

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Post by Tenez on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:14 am

BN, I have another, probably easier, question for you.

Why is it that shorter people have much quicker hands than taller people? if you look at shorter people like Laender Paes, Chang, Santoro, Gilles Rochus, etc...seems to have excellent eye/hand coordination....while giants like Karlo, Isner and so on seem to move like ships in comparison.

Sure I understand they are heavier and therefore their inertia is more challenging but they have longer, bigger muscles and so on. So I have the feeling that again the electrical pulse needing to travel longer of course due to their longer nerves also plays a role. Though it should be negligeable, it seems to make a difference and could explain why they usually, if not always have slower hands....what do you think?

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Post by DEC1M8 on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:19 am

Tenez, impulses travel at around 140 metres per second. So they could travel the whole length of Isner in around 0.015 seconds.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:21 am

summerblues wrote:
Tenez wrote:Good one SB! What is your forte? Stats if I remember? genetics and stats really go hand in hand actually.
Yes, stats/maths combo education-wise, mostly stats nowadays.  Genetics may go hand-in-hand with that but that unfortunately does not make me knowledgeable in that field smiley.  What is your area of professional expertise, btw?
 
I am a jack of all trade actually. A very atypical education.

Math was always by far my favourite and strongest subject till A levels. But then I realised its limitation. Math is like a game...after a while you realise that the game can only become interesting if you change or add rules as you get closer to infinities (micro/macro). Then I studied Philosophy, but finished with a 4 year degree in Neurology and the humoral system.....but I did not stop there....I went to London and studied business....and am now in software.

But my real knowledge is tennis! Winking

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Post by Tenez on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:26 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:Tenez, impulses travel at around 140 metres per second. So they could travel the whole length of Isner in around 0.015 seconds.
Yep, but that just one way...he needs to receive impulse first before they are analysed and then go back with orders to his hands and legs...so make that 0.03+ seconds...by that time the ball would have moved a few good inches.

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Post by DEC1M8 on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:43 am

Tenez wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:Tenez, impulses travel at around 140 metres per second. So they could travel the whole length of Isner in around 0.015 seconds.
Yep, but that just one way...he needs to receive impulse first before they are analysed and then go back with orders to his hands and legs...so make that 0.03+ seconds...by that time the ball would have moved a few good inches.
Eye to Brain, and then Brain to arm- I'm guessing that is around roughly 1m for Isner actually?
So it's actually even less than I thought, 0.0075 seconds, and the difference between a tall and short player is maybe 0.0003 seconds... barely anything.

Edit: That would be for hand movement, ie maybe at the net.
Eye to Brain, and then Brain to legs would probably be 1.5x more than my hand calculation. Still not much.


Last edited by Julia Santamaria on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Tenez on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:53 am

math was not your forte. if the e pulse goes at 100m/s then 30cm extra would take 0.003extra...but add that for every thought and ajustement....
 
What's your explanation then?

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Post by DEC1M8 on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:57 am

Tenez wrote:math was not your forte. if the e pulse goes at 100m/s then 30cm extra would take 0.003extra...but add that for every thought and ajustement....
0.003 seconds isn't much though is it, how much does a ball travel in that time?
 
Tenez wrote:
What's your explanation then?
Well players like Del Potro seem to have pretty good hand/eye coordination. I'm not sure why the general trend is what it is.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:04 am

Even Delpo is a sluggish player. He needs to stand quite far behind on return and in general to give himself a good swipe at the ball.

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Post by DEC1M8 on Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:09 am

How far does a ball travel in 0.003 seconds?

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Post by DEC1M8 on Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:12 am

A forehand hit at 60 miles an hour will give the shorter player an approximate advantage of 6cm of ball movement in terms of reflexes, if my calculations are correct.
You are right, this may be the reason.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:07 am

that and inertia of course.

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