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Religion, Philosphy and other life related thoughts! - Page 3 Empty Re: Religion, Philosphy and other life related thoughts!

Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:12 am

Tenez wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:But science explains things that already exist and work.

How do you explain your feet are doing an amazing job to keep you moving and living yet you don't know how your feet are really made. Are you feet smarter than than you?

Evolutionary biologists have worked out how feet were evolved.
But again feet were there before evolutionary biologists. Aren't feet smart?
I don't understand your point?
Evolution did not require evolutionary biologists to take place.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:12 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:But science explains things that already exist and work.

How do you explain your feet are doing an amazing job to keep you moving and living yet you don't know how your feet are really made. Are you feet smarter than than you?

Evolutionary biologists have worked out how feet were evolved.
Amri, you can believe you came from monkeys, I'd prefer to believe God made me.

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Post by wilson_nxt on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:15 am

What about Day 1 in Genesis then, lets start at the beginning. It say:

Day 1
Genesis 1:1-5  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.  And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Now the first question I ask here is "What is that light source?" for God has not created the sun yet, he does that later. God also separates light and dark, giving us day and night. This means a "God day" back then, was about the same length as it is now, and not a million years as some creationist say. Again, God has made the earth before he made the sun. Is the earth just hanging in space? Wouldn't it make more sense to make the sun first, and then put the earth in orbit around it? That would be like putting tyres on a car, before putting on the axles.

I've also wondered why the bible author would say that the "earth was without form".  Was he implying that the earth has no shape; that it's flat?  At any rate, no matter what the author thought the shape of the earth was, it would have still have form.

What about the other days:

Day 2
Genesis 1:6-8  And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.  And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.  And God called the firmament Heaven.  And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Here God has placed a firmament over the earth.  A firmament is a solid dome.  So according to Genesis, our sky is solid.  As many times as we have sent out spacecrafts, how often have we ran into this solid firmament?

Day 3
Genesis 1:9-13  And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.  And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.  And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth:  and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.  And the evening and the morning were the third day.

God created plants, but there still isn't a sun for them to undergo photosynthesis.

Day 4
Genesis 1:14-19  And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.  And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.  And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.  And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

So finally, God has made the sun, the life giving energy of our world.  And look, he even gave us a moon and some stars.  But what about the other celestial bodies in our solar system?  The author failed to mention the OTHER worlds that orbit the sun, including the moons that orbit the other worlds.   He also failed to mention that there are other galaxies out there besides our own.  Anyway, God created these lights and STUCK them on the firmament.  I wonder what kind of glue he used.  It also mentions that God created a lesser light (the Moon) to rule the night.  Funny how the Moon is not always visible at night, and how it occasionally makes appearances during the day.

Day 5
Genesis 1:20-23  And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.  And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.  And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.  And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Fowls are said to have been created on the 5th day, while the other animals (mammals, reptiles) were created on the 6th day.  Fowls did not appear until long after mammals and reptiles.

Day 6
Genesis 1:24-31  And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.  And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.  And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Let's break this one down.

God didn't have time to make all of the animals on the 5th day, so he created the rest on the 6th day.  God also creates man on the 6th day.  God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."  God insinuates that there are other gods besides his self, by saying "Let us make man in our image.  Just how many gods are there?

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."  Male and female?  And all this time, I thought God created the female well after creating the male, but here he created them at the same time.

"And God blessed THEM, (the male and the female) and God said unto THEM, (the male and the female) Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth."  Replenish the earth?  How can they replenish the earth, when it hasn't even been plenished yet?

,..and Day 7 as mentioned, he got tired so needed a rest. All makes good sense to me. A book well worth quoting.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:15 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:But science explains things that already exist and work.

How do you explain your feet are doing an amazing job to keep you moving and living yet you don't know how your feet are really made. Are you feet smarter than than you?

Evolutionary biologists have worked out how feet were evolved.
Amri, you can believe you came from monkeys, I'd prefer to believe God made me.
Evolution is a fact.
Some may argue that it was overseen by God... that's a possible point.
But arguing simply that evolution isn't true, just because you can't get your head round how humans and monkeys could have common ancestors... is illogical.
If evolution isn't true, then answer this: antibiotics are starting to become ineffective because bacteria is evolving- and thus becoming more and more resistant. If evolution isn't true, why is this happening?

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Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:17 am

I believe there is a side of me coming from God and another from monkeys.

This is roughly what all myths and children stories tell us.

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Post by wilson_nxt on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:21 am

noleisthebest wrote:I'd prefer to believe God made me.
Yes but according to Day 6 of Genesis which god made you?

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:21 am

wilson_nxt wrote:What about Day 1 in Genesis then, lets start at the beginning. It say:

Day 1
Genesis 1:1-5  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.  And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Now the first question I ask here is "What is that light source?" for God has not created the sun yet, he does that later. God also separates light and dark, giving us day and night. This means a "God day" back then, was about the same length as it is now, and not a million years as some creationist say. Again, God has made the earth before he made the sun. Is the earth just hanging in space? Wouldn't it make more sense to make the sun first, and then put the earth in orbit around it? That would be like putting tyres on a car, before putting on the axles.
Exactly.


Day 2
Genesis 1:6-8  And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.  And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.  And God called the firmament Heaven.  And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Here God has placed a firmament over the earth.  A firmament is a solid dome.  So according to Genesis, our sky is solid.  As many times as we have sent out spacecrafts, how often have we ran into this solid firmament?
Someone should give NASA a copy of the Bible to warn them.

Day 3
Genesis 1:9-13  And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.  And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.  And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth:  and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.  And the evening and the morning were the third day.

God created plants, but there still isn't a sun for them to undergo photosynthesis.
LOL. Maybe these plants could photosynthesise magically.


Day 4
Genesis 1:14-19  And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.  And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.  And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.  And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

So finally, God has made the sun, the life giving energy of our world.  And look, he even gave us a moon and some stars.  But what about the other celestial bodies in our solar system?  The author failed to mention the OTHER worlds that orbit the sun, including the moons that orbit the other worlds.   He also failed to mention that there are other galaxies out there besides our own.  Anyway, God created these lights and STUCK them on the firmament.  I wonder what kind of glue he used.  It also mentions that God created a lesser light (the Moon) to rule the night.  Funny how the Moon is not always visible at night, and how it occasionally makes appearances during the day.
Someone give NASA another copy of the bible, more urgently this time.


Day 5
Genesis 1:20-23  And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.  And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.  And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.  And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Fowls are said to have been created on the 5th day, while the other animals (mammals, reptiles) were created on the 6th day.  Fowls did not appear until long after mammals and reptiles.
Also they didn't even mention: bacteria, viruses, protozoa; or ANY other micro-organisms.


Day 6
Genesis 1:24-31  And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.  And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Let's break this one down.

God didn't have time to make all of the animals on the 5th day, so he created the rest on the 6th day.  God also creates man on the 6th day.  God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."  God insinuates that there are other gods besides his self, by saying "Let us make man in our image.  Just how many gods are there?

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."  Male and female?  And all this time, I thought God created the female well after creating the male, but here he created them at the same time.

,..and Day 7 as mentioned, he got tired so needed a rest. All makes good sense to me. A book well worth quoting.
Yeah, let's keep on quoting it and use it for evidence for itself. Perfect logic.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:25 am

wilson_nxt wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:I'd prefer to believe God made me.
Yes but according to Day 6 of Genesis which god made you?
Wilson,
this is not a joke. There is only one God and he says this:
I am The Way, The Truth and The Life. No man comes to the Father but by me.

Take it or leave it. God has no time for cleverdicks.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:26 am

But Wilson I am sure you could envisage there might be a symbolic meaning behind it all and it is a simplistic to throw religious text without trying to interpret it.

Symbols are everywhere in our lives. In the money we deal with, in our flags, on the roof of our houses and there are dragons everywhere in London City, the place where the most educated people make the most money. Your previous president even had secretive symbols of the sect he belonged, etc.. etc...

Those don't mean much to you but they meant much to them and they had education and power.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:28 am

Tenez wrote:I believe there is a side of me coming from God and another from monkeys.

This is roughly what all myths and children stories tell us.
The body and all its lusts make us feel like animals.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:28 am

Tenez wrote:But Wilson I am sure you could envisage there might be a symbolic meaning behind it all and it is a simplistic to throw religious text without trying to interpret it.
It's contradicting itself and false Tenez.
What hidden meaning does a load of nonsensical statements about plants surviving without the sun have?

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:30 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:But Wilson I am sure you could envisage there might be a symbolic meaning behind it all and it is a simplistic to throw religious text without trying to interpret it.
It's contradicting itself and false Tenez.
What hidden meaning does a load of nonsensical statements about plants surviving without the sun have?
JS,
even homosexuals can get saved. I have actually read a testimony of one guy.

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Post by wilson_nxt on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:33 am

But Tenez I am interpreting it, and comparing it against itself. It doesnt stand up to scrutiny. i thought you were a man of logic too. Rather than just blindly take it as read. Trust me I've done my homework, a long time ago. How anyone can follow such an absurd set of contradicting stories is beyond me. yes Julia, NASA needs to look at the earth being round again too, as the Bible seemed to think it was flat...


Isaiah 40:22  It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers.
A circle is a flat, two dimensional object.  There is a Hebrew word for ball, which would have been better to use if the author new the earth was round as a sphere.

Daniel 4:10-11  Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.  The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth.
Nebuchadnezzar has a dream, where a tree grows at the "center" of the earth.  A spherical earth has no center on the surface.  He also states that the tree grew so tall, that it reached into heaven and was able to be seen to the "ends of the earth".

Job 38:13  That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
The author of Job imagines God can take the edges of the earth and shake out the wicked, like shaking dust out of a rug.

Job 11:9  The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.
A spherical earth has no ends to measure its length.

Deuteronomy 14:7  Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth.
From one end of the earth, to the other end?  This verse speaks for itself.


If you can't prove the earth isn't flat then you take the bible as read. Once you know otherwise, you believe otherwise. The bible is full of contradictions, inaccuracies, atrocities, wrong prophecies and downright absurdities. And yet we're meant to take it all as The Truth? It doesn't stand up to any intellectual scrutiny...

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Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:33 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:But Wilson I am sure you could envisage there might be a symbolic meaning behind it all and it is a simplistic to throw religious text without trying to interpret it.
It's contradicting itself and false Tenez.
What hidden meaning does a load of nonsensical statements about plants surviving without the sun have?
And what sense is there in having a dragon in the middle of all world's financial powers?

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:34 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:But Wilson I am sure you could envisage there might be a symbolic meaning behind it all and it is a simplistic to throw religious text without trying to interpret it.
It's contradicting itself and false Tenez.
What hidden meaning does a load of nonsensical statements about plants surviving without the sun have?
JS,
even homosexuals can get saved. I have actually read a testimony of one guy.
What are you on about?

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:34 am

Tenez wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:But Wilson I am sure you could envisage there might be a symbolic meaning behind it all and it is a simplistic to throw religious text without trying to interpret it.
It's contradicting itself and false Tenez.
What hidden meaning does a load of nonsensical statements about plants surviving without the sun have?
And what sense is there in having a dragon in the middle of all world's financial powers?
Have I ever argued that we should base any sort of belief on dragons of financial powers?

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Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:37 am

wilson_nxt wrote:But Tenez I am interpreting it, and comparing it against itself. It doesnt stand up to scrutiny. i thought you were a man of logic too. Rather than just blindly take it as read. Trust me I've done my homework, a long time ago. How anyone can follow such an absurd set of contradicting stories is beyond me. yes Julia, NASA needs to look at the earth being round again too, as the Bible seemed to think it was flat...

....
If you can't prove the earth isn't flat then you take the bible as read. Once you know otherwise, you believe otherwise. The bible is full of contradictions, inaccuracies, atrocities, wrong prophecies and downright absurdities. And yet we're meant to take it all as The Truth? It doesn't stand up to any intellectual scrutiny...
Don't you have dreams with lots of things in it which don't make sense?

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:41 am

Wilson,
great of you to make an effort and find some Bible verses.
Bible is complex and not an ordinary book.
Some parts are more difficult to understand than others.
For beginners, I strongly recommend the Gospels.

Milk for the babies, meat for the men.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:41 am

Tenez wrote:
wilson_nxt wrote:But Tenez I am interpreting it, and comparing it against itself. It doesnt stand up to scrutiny. i thought you were a man of logic too. Rather than just blindly take it as read. Trust me I've done my homework, a long time ago. How anyone can follow such an absurd set of contradicting stories is beyond me. yes Julia, NASA needs to look at the earth being round again too, as the Bible seemed to think it was flat...

....
If you can't prove the earth isn't flat then you take the bible as read. Once you know otherwise, you believe otherwise. The bible is full of contradictions, inaccuracies, atrocities, wrong prophecies and downright absurdities. And yet we're meant to take it all as The Truth? It doesn't stand up to any intellectual scrutiny...
Don't you have dreams with lots of things in it which don't make sense?
Yes, does this mean we have to believe the Earth is flat like NITB?

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:42 am

If people want to believe the earth is flat because a book written 2000 years ago says so... that's your opinion.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:43 am

As I said most Christians don't take the Bible literally unlike NITB, and they agree that the earth is not flat, evolution exists etc.

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Post by wilson_nxt on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:44 am

There is nothing complex about the bible. its very simplistic...it has to be to appeal to all and sundry! Yes but not where the Bible is concerned. It seems you are keen to make a story full of holes and contradictions work for you. I don't bother trying. Here's more eye watering stuff...God is meant to be all omnipresent, he's everywhere...yet people could hide from him in the Bible. Here are some other illogical aspects:

God the Creator
Christians insist that everything had to have a first cause, and that cause was God.  Well if everything had to have a first cause, then where did God come from?  If the universe needed a cause, why doesn't God need a cause? Christians claim that God is eternal and didn't need a creator.  It's just as easy to say that the universe is eternal and didn't need a creator.

God the Omnipotent
As a believer, I never doubted the ability of God to be able to do anything.  Jesus said ‘with God, ALL things are possible’.  I accepted that God was all-powerful and could do anything, no matter how illogical it may have seemed.  But are there some things that an all-powerful god can't do?  What about the illogical?  Could God create an immovable object and an irresistible force to exist at the same time, in the same universe?  What about the not so illogical? Could such a god (if he existed) create a being that is even greater and more powerful then himself?

God the Omniscient
One of the foremost problems with God's omniscience, is that it is incompatible with man's free will. If man has free will to make any choice he so desires, how could God know what choices man will make?  The biggest problem I have with an omniscient God, is that an all knowing God would have foreknowledge of the destinies of every being in which he created, long before he created them.  Now if God already knows which of those will go to Heaven and which of those will go to Hell, then God purposely creates people to send them to Hell.  How can an all loving God; a God whose greatest desire is that every person accepts him and gets into Heaven for all eternity, create beings whom he already knows aren't going to make the cut?

God the Omnibenevolent
Omnibenevolence is another characteristic that Christians have given their god.  It doesn't seem plausible to me that a being, with this much home baked goodness, can idly sit back and watch the pain and suffering plaguing our planet.  God is supposed to be omnipotent, which means that he can prevent evil.  If God chooses not to prevent evil, then he can't be all loving.

God the Omnipresent
God is said to simultaneously occupy every part of the universe.  There are scriptures in the Bible that claims otherwise...
Genesis 3:8 says - "And they heard the voice of the Lord God  walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden."

Adam and Eve hid themselves pretty well, because in the next verse, God asks "Where art thou?" If God is everywhere, why would he need to walk anywhere?  If God is also omniscient, why didn't he know where Adam and Eve were hidden?
Genesis 4:16 says - "And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden."

Apparently God does not dwell in the land of Nod, since Cain was able to be out of his presence there.
Genesis 11:5 says - "And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded."

If God is present everywhere, there would have been no need for him to "come down".

God the Perfect and Flawless
How can God be perfect and flawless, if many of the things he created are imperfect?  How can perfection create imperfection?  If God created man perfect, then how did man succumb to sin?  Also; how can man improve upon some of God's creations?  How are we able to make some foods taste better and more nutritious?  When babies are born with birth defects, (Siamese twins for example), man will sometimes step in and repair the damage as best as he can. In fact, science always seems busy fixing many of God's blunders.


All these examples I've given, and there are so many more, show what a farce the stories are. They don't stand up to scrutiny or cross-comparison. But fine you keep defending it...keep believing. If the bible was invented today, as it was 2000+ years ago, it wouldn't get published anywhere. Editors would laugh it out of town.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:45 am

There is absolutely nothing contradictory in the Bible. It is all clear as daylight.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:47 am

All these examples I've given, and there are so many more, show what a farce the stories are. They don't stand up to scrutiny or cross-comparison. But fine you keep defending it...keep believing. If the bible was invented today, as it was 2000+ years ago, it wouldn't get published anywhere. Editors would laugh it out of town.
Unbelievable in the 21st century, that people still believe what they do.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:47 am

wilson_nxt wrote:There is nothing complex about the bible. its very simplistic...it has to be to appeal to all and sundry! Yes but not where the Bible is concerned. It seems you are keen to make a story full of holes and contradictions work for you. I don't bother trying. Here's more eye watering stuff...God is meant to be all omnipresent, he's everywhere...yet people could hide from him in the Bible. Here are some other illogical aspects:
.
No I am just trying to find sense everywhere cause I have a feeling sense is everywhere but we do not always see it.....like in our dreams.....and like our bodies as well. You open it, it does not make sense....unless you understand what is a heart, a liver and lung and how they function with one another.


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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:48 am

noleisthebest wrote:There is absolutely nothing contradictory in the Bible. It is all clear as daylight.
Then how could God be all knowing and yet Adam could hide from God by a tree.
And I'm pretty sure Wilson found some direct clear contradictions above, why don't you address those??

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:49 am

NITB do you believe the world is flat, as it says in the Bible??
A yes or no will do, no beating around the bush and avoiding the question.
Edit: And don't answer by asking me a question in return, that counts as avoiding the question.


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Post by wilson_nxt on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:50 am

My final comments on all this absurdity. There are so many problems with the Christian faith, it is hard to believe that over 2 billion people take it seriously. Looking at the Christian faith in a nutshell, it is easy to see why the whole concept it utterly ridiculous.

+ God created the universe with a divine plan.
+ This divine plan included man.
+ Man turned his back on God by sinning against him.
+ God offers man forgiveness and salvation by offering up his son, Jesus as a blood sacrifice.
+ Jesus dies by crucifixion, only to be resurrected back to life 3 days later.
+ Through this death and resurrection of Jesus, man can have eternal life merely by asking Jesus to forgive his sins.

That is pretty much the gist of it. Some Christians may argue that there is more to it than that, but if you read the Gospels - as I'm told to do by NITB - you'll see that is all there is to it.

As discussed, from the very beginning God's divine plan ran into some major problems. After creating the Heavens and the Earth, God created man and placed him in a garden. God gave man a companion, a female, so that man would not be lonely. God told man that he could eat the fruit from all the trees in the garden, except for one, the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good an evil. God told man that if he ate from this tree, then the man would surely die. The female that was given to the man is tempted by a serpent to eat from the tree. The female then tells the man to eat from the tree. Disobeying God's direct order, the man eats from the tree which he was told not to eat from. This is the original sin. The man blames the female, the female blames the serpent...But no one blames God for sticking the tree there in the first place.

Problem 1. If God didn't want man to eat from this particular tree, then why put it there? This is the equivalent of a parent placing a child in a playroom with some toys and a loaded gun. The parent tells the child that he can play with all the toys in the room, but not to play with the gun. The parent tells the child that if he plays with the gun, he could kill himself. What sane parent would do that?

Problem 2. God is supposed to be perfect. If God is perfect, then man should have been created perfect. Christians argue that man was created perfect, but after sinning against God, man became imperfect. But if man was created perfect, then he should have made a perfect decision, a perfect choice. Man's perfection would have prevented him from sinning against God. Christians argue that man was given freewill, and man was able to use this freewill to sin against God. Still, regardless of man's freewill, he would have use his freewill to make the perfect choice if he were created perfect.

Problem 3. God is supposed to be omniscient, meaning that God knows everything. God would have had foreknowledge that man was going to disobey him; that his "perfect" divine plan was going to start in utter failure. Christians argue that although God knew man was going to sin against him, he was not the cause of man's disobedience. So, if a parent puts a loaded gun in a child's playroom, knowing very well that the child may shoot them self, even kill them self, the parent isn't to be held accountable? You can't blame the parent, because the parent told the child not to play with the gun.


It's all a load of rubbish. Cracking set of stories though, The Lord of the Rings of its day.

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Post by wilson_nxt on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:51 am

noleisthebest wrote:There is absolutely nothing contradictory in the Bible. It is all clear as daylight.
Haha...dream on. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Try opening both eyes.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:53 am

Spot on once again Wilson. ^^

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:54 am

wilson_nxt wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:There is absolutely nothing contradictory in the Bible. It is all clear as daylight.
Haha...dream on. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Try opening both eyes.
Wilson,
as I said, I see everything clearly. There is no shame not understanding everything in the Bible. But there is shame in not even wanting to understand it.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:54 am

I repeat, as NITB is online but has not yet answered my question:

NITB do you believe the world is flat, as it says in the Bible??
A yes or no will do, no beating around the bush and avoiding the question.
Edit: And don't answer by asking me a question in return, that counts as avoiding the question.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:56 am

noleisthebest wrote:
wilson_nxt wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:There is absolutely nothing contradictory in the Bible. It is all clear as daylight.
Haha...dream on. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Try opening both eyes.
Wilson,
as I said, I see everything clearly. There is no shame not understanding everything in the Bible. But there is shame in not even wanting to understand it.
What is there to understand in a book that:
-says the world is flat
-says the world was made in 7 days
-claims humans gained knowledge by eating an apple
-ignored the evidence of evolution
-'coincidentally' only mentions animals humans knew about at the time, not mentioning bacteria and viruses
-says earth was made before the sun
-claims plants were made before the sun, even though photosynthesis needs the sun
-has lots of direct contradictions which Wilson pointed out, and you couldn't address

Need I go on?

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Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:56 am

For instance the apple is temptation, the snake is knowledge, the tree is life. Adam and Eve are in heaven (outside time) not on earth. They exist but have no consciousness, a bit like our heart, feet and lung, they are but do not know how.

By biting the apple they disobey and are thrown east of Eden (Earth) where the snake (knowledge/consciousness) begins with knowledge comes pain suffering, ....etc...


Look at a child...he does not know much but is happy near his mum's breast...he grows, gets intelligent and knowledgeable but then is aware of the suffering (his and the planet). He has to make sense of it all.

This interpretation is wrong but it is one.

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Post by wilson_nxt on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:58 am

NITB, I understand it all perfectly. I just don't BELIEVE it. It's all rubbish...and no wonder why more and more people are turning their backs on it. After all any book that believes the world was flat yet the authors were on direct line to god who would know it wasn't flat having created it does somewhat take the biscuit doesn't it. As they say in Egypt...keep swimming in the Nile!

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:58 am

Has it occurred to you Tenez, that these far fetched claimed apparently made my God, may just be man made?
The level of science in the bible is pretty close to humans 2000 years ago.. funny isn't it.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:59 am

wilson_nxt wrote:NITB, I understand it all perfectly. I just don't BELIEVE it. It's all rubbish...and no wonder why more and more people are turning their backs on it. After all any book that believes the world was flat yet the authors were on direct line to god who would know it wasn't flat having created it does somewhat take the biscuit doesn't it. As they say in Egypt...keep swimming in the Nile!
Be careful Wilson, if you keep swimming in the Nile you may fall off the edge of the earth.

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Post by wilson_nxt on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:59 am

If the bible was good, it wouldn't need, nor reflect, so many interpretations. Besides which its full of more holes than Swiss cheese. Keep swimming guys...

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:00 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
wilson_nxt wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:There is absolutely nothing contradictory in the Bible. It is all clear as daylight.
Haha...dream on. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Try opening both eyes.
Wilson,
as I said, I see everything clearly. There is no shame not understanding everything in the Bible. But there is shame in not even wanting to understand it.
What is there to understand in a book that:
-says the world is flat
-says the world was made in 7 days
-claims humans gained knowledge by eating an apple
-ignored the evidence of evolution
-'coincidentally' only mentions animals humans knew about at the time, not mentioning bacteria and viruses
-says earth was made before the sun
-claims plants were made before the sun, even though photosynthesis needs the sun
-has lots of direct contradictions which Wilson pointed out, and you couldn't address

Need I go on?
Luke 23:34

Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:01 am

wilson_nxt wrote:If the bible was good, it wouldn't need, nor reflect, so many interpretations. Besides which its full of more holes than Swiss cheese. Keep swimming guys...
we are swimming, you are drowning.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:01 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Luke 23:34

Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
I repeat, as NITB is online but has not yet answered my question:

NITB do you believe the world is flat, as it says in the Bible??
A yes or no will do, no beating around the bush and avoiding the question.
Edit: And don't answer by asking me a question in return, that counts as avoiding the question.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:02 am

wilson_nxt wrote:NITB, I understand it all perfectly. I just don't BELIEVE it. It's all rubbish...and no wonder why more and more people are turning their backs on it. After all any book that believes the world was flat yet the authors were on direct line to god who would know it wasn't flat having created it does somewhat take the biscuit doesn't it. As they say in Egypt...keep swimming in the Nile!
As I said earlier, that's fine. You have made your choice. Now you have to live with it. You will remember this conversation one day.
Hopefully, this side of eternity.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:04 am

Hopefully he doesn't fall of the edge of the earth.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:04 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:Has it occurred to you Tenez, that these far fetched claimed apparently made my God, may just be man made?
The level of science in the bible is pretty close to humans 2000 years ago.. funny isn't it.
But if God made man to its image would it matter who made them as long as it seems we all have them in ourselves. We have all a liver, a heart, a brain and so on....you only know that cause we can open bodies.

I am pretty sure that if you could open our souls and read it you'd fine very similar archetypes too.

I am not particularly interested in the Bible's story but it is one beautiful and terrible story. It's not because I don't make all sense of it that it is non-sense.

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Post by wilson_nxt on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:05 am

Exactly Julia, god had to wait for mankind to make all these scientific discoveries, having made the earth he must have known a lot about chemistry, biology and physics - yet nothing remotely scientific is described in the Bible. Written by the scientifically uneducated, for the mass uneducated. It served its purpose well, created a load of god fearing people so that kings could rule without too much hassle. But once they started making lots of scientific discoveries and people could start to understand the earth and universe for themselves then Christianity started to decline, and has done ever since. These dinosaurs on here will be clinging on to the Bible believing a book that says the earth is flag whilst the rest of us walk around with our eyes open.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:05 am

Right...time for me to go and dream and try to make sense of it all! santa 

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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:06 am

wilson_nxt wrote:Exactly Julia, god had to wait for mankind to make all these scientific discoveries, having made the earth he must have known a lot about chemistry, biology and physics - yet nothing remotely scientific is described in the Bible. Written by the scientifically uneducated, for the mass uneducated. It served its purpose well, created a load of god fearing people so that kings could rule without too much hassle. But once they started making lots of scientific discoveries and people could start to understand the earth and universe for themselves then Christianity started to decline, and has done ever since. These dinosaurs on here will be clinging on to the Bible believing a book that says the earth is flag whilst the rest of us walk around with our eyes open.
You sum it up well.

Tenez, NITB... still waiting for an answer.
The Bible says the earth is flat, should we all believe it?

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Post by wilson_nxt on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:07 am

Yeah whatever NITB...as Sheryl Crow sang "if it makes you happy it can't be half bad". You and your ilk are becoming fossils, flat-earthers. The rest of us live equally spiritual, moralistic lives without needing to believe a load of claptrap written on papyrus 2000 years ago.

Night Tenez, a good thread I guess...always fun to expose a badly written book.


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Post by BEL19VE on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:08 am

NITB, it's a yes or no question.
Do you, or do you not, agree with the Bible that the Earth is flat?

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:08 am

Good night all. 
NITB has played a lot of tennis in cold windy weather today and is a bit tired sleepy 
Thank you for your interest in what I had to say. I hope God blesses it.

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