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Religion, Philosphy and other life related thoughts!

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Religion, Philosphy and other life related thoughts! Empty Religion, Philosphy and other life related thoughts!

Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:31 pm

Let's face it, tennis is a very trivial subject. In fact if it was not for Roger Ferderer I probably would have never posted about it. There is something about him that can give you a sense of perfection, grace, surreal or simply of what is "right" that someone famously called the "religious experience".
 
However this thread has nothing to do with Federer but I am interested people's view of life. We come and go on this planet and have hardly enough time to make sense of it ....or find a direction rather.
 
Some of us develop a religious faith helping them to go through it others will find this planet exciting enough not to have to dwell too deep and enjoy all its aspects while not minding too much about its cruel side.
 
Do you think there is something eternal about yourselves or do you think there is just nothing before birth and nothing after death.
 
Do you think evolution has a sense, meaning and purpose or is it just going in all directions without knowing where?
 
Is someone overlooking all that? you know the famous "Architect".
 
We all have opinions about those questions and suspect even strong opinions, funnily, without having much proof for those but we certainly think we know better.
 
So what's your take on life?

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:28 pm

In terms of OPs, it doesn't get bigger and more profound than this, thanks T.

I am not an evolutionist, I am creationist, so I'll start at the Beginning:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dryland appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

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Post by Daniel Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:44 pm

Religion, unfortunately, is man made and outlived its use.  Although some religions are now benign and help the ordinary person, in general it does more harm worldwide than good.  Especially the evil, nazi-like religion Islam.

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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:00 pm

Nice post NITB. I did not expect any less from you! Winking 

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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:02 pm

Ouch FK. That's strong and mean words. You are already making me regret starting what should be a cool and relax subject...even if a very important one.
 
Cannot you discuss without being so strongly opinionated?  
 
I actually am a big "fan" of Islam as a religion. What men can do with religions is another thing, it should not be mixed in.


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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:10 pm

When I was 19yo I was relaxing lying on a Normandy beach enjoying a clear sky on those huge white sand beaches.

Then this idea, or rather feeling came to mind. The sand dust I was trying to isolate of its other billion peers "thinks", and so do all the other sand dusts. It dawned on me that matter is alive and thinks. I am not saying it has complex thoughts but it does has a spirit side too. This feeling came very much, I guess, like Newton's idea that matter attracts matter. He first felt it and then worked hard to demonstrate it.

My job to demonstrate that matter thinks is much harder but for me it was simple a truth that was stronger than me. I simply knew. Unfortunately I cannot demonstrate it but since I have found many facts that can in a way back up that idea.

I'll try to develop it later.

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Post by wilson_nxt Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:11 pm

But religions come from people, its what we believe in that creates religion - a schooled group of similar thought. I too believe they are manmade and please prove otherwise. For me religion served its purpose as a form of crowd/population control some time back - and still does that in some quarters. For me the need to believe in a higher power is simply a reflection of the human condition and is now being replaced by spiritualism (non-secular religion) and a broader understanding of global humanity. If there was a god then why would there be all the trouble and strife in the world? "He" would have made the world perfect so there wasn't the need to create a man of god and educate us on commandments, etc - the human race would be pre-imprinted with a good code of living. Why create a species that needed to be taught constantly how to live and conduct itself? And besides which, who made God...?

Life is a journey, not a destination...enjoy the ride, and the tennis.

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Post by Polly 81 Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:14 pm

I'm with NITB on this one.
Plus there is too much proof of God's existence, and Jesus also, to not be true.

Wilson- I believe that He did create a perfect world, thats the thing. When people go against God, thats when things go bad.

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:46 pm

noleisthebest wrote:In terms of OPs, it doesn't get bigger and more profound than this, thanks T.
Tenez, if you allow me to rebuttle NITB's post from the bible in a sensible manner:
I am not an evolutionist, I am creationist, so I'll start at the Beginning:
The evidence for evolution is massive, it is simply a fact.
At the moment there is a scare that bacteria are evolving so that they are resistant to antibiotics. Are you worried about this threat at all, given you don't believe the fact that is evolution?

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
What about all the other stars and the planets?

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Is this after the earth was made?
But the earth's source of light is the sun, I'm not sure how this is possible (that the earth was created before light).

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness
This is bordering on ridiculous. Do people seriously believe that God, if existing, actually looks  like a human?

And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Isn't it interesting how the only animals and creatures mentioned in the Bible, is one which humans knew about at the time. Does this not occur to you as a suspicious coincidence?
Why not the mention of: dinosaurs, bacteria, viruses, microbes etc. ??

...
And that's just the start, honestly I could go on a long time if I were to find gaps in logic and unscientific statements in the Bible.
What I would say is this; I think most Christians (certainly in Britain anyway) don't actually believe the Bible to be literally true, but as a book of morals to follow.
NITB, if you want to try and answer any my points above, you are free to do so.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:55 pm

Wilson (and others),
if you want to know who made God, PM me your address and I'll send you a copy of the book written by a family friend, Prof.Edgar Andrews:

http://www.amazon.com/Who-Made-God-Searching-Everything-ebook/dp/B00CDLP3ZQ/ref=la_B002V6LTI8_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1385150091&sr=1-1

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:09 pm

Tenez wrote:Let's face it, tennis is a very trivial subject. In fact if it was not for Roger Ferderer I probably would have never posted about it. There is something about him that can give you a sense of perfection, grace, surreal or simply of what is "right" that someone famously called the "religious experience".
 
If your or any other soul reading this thread gets saved, all those Wimbledon trophies, all those glorious BHs, all that enormous beauty that came of Federer's racquet will have been worth it.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:18 pm

Tenez wrote:When I was 19yo I was relaxing lying on a Normandy beach enjoying a clear sky on those huge white sand beaches.

Then this idea, or rather feeling came to mind. The sand dust I was trying to isolate of its other billion peers "thinks", and so do all the other sand dusts. It dawned on me that matter is alive and thinks. I am not saying it has complex thoughts but it does has a spirit side too. This feeling came very much, I guess, like Newton's idea that matter attracts matter. He first felt it and then worked hard to demonstrate it.

My job to demonstrate that matter thinks is much harder but for me it was simple a truth that was stronger than me. I simply knew. Unfortunately I cannot demonstrate it but since I have found many facts that can in a way back up that idea.

I'll try to develop it later.
Funny, I had almost an identical beginning of big questions: grains of sand and starry sky on a beach. One feels so small under a sky full of stars.
Not the polluted, urban sky, but the one where there are so many of them, just like the grains of sand. All the big questions pour in immediately: who am I? What is the point of life?
God made us in His image and as He is eternal, he has set eternity in our hearts.
We, as persons, just like God are made as a trinity: body, soul and spirit.
Body is the flesh, soul is the unique "me", spirit is the heavenly side to us.
Body is earthly and to earth it returns after death, soul is eternal and it goes upwards, back to God.

To answer JS's question, God's trinity consists of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. God is Spirit. He only came to Earth and took the form of flesh once as Jesus Christ.
What people celebrate as Christmas.
Jesus has many references in the Bible and appears under several different names, often referred as the Second Adam.


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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:21 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
To answer JS's question, God's trinity consists of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. God is Spirit. He only came to Earth and took the form of flesh once as Jesus Christ.
What people celebrate as Christmas.
Jesus has many references in the Bible and appears under several different names, often referred as the Second Adam.
Wait, which question of mine did that answer?

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:39 pm

JS,
this is a very serious topic.
It is more important than all the Wimbledons, all tennis records all Davis Cup trophies everything put together.
In eternity, all the tennis legends and their records will look totally insignificant.

By our birth, through Adam and his original sin, we are separated from God and it is essential that we come back and reconcile with Him. Try hard as we can, every day we sin in thought, word or deed. All of us. Saved and unsaved. The difference is whether you are forgiven or not, or to be more precise whether you have asked to be forgiven or not.
You, as so many others will think that there is nothing wrong with you, that you are more or less good. On the scale of "evil" most people see themselves somewhere between Mother Theresa and Hitler.
But in God's eyes, we are all the same.
Because of sin, we die. Sin is a spiritual disease, cancer of the soul.
Rich, poor, clever, stupid, beautiful, ugly, we all must die and meet our Maker.

The original sin is pride, rebellion against God, reason why Satan was thrown out of Heaven and with him a host of other fallen angels, now called demons.
They are all spirits as well.

Only in the last hundred years or so and Darwin, men have introduced the concept of atheism, but that's just another form of Satan's deception, the father of all lies.

I often feel that the Earth is a battlefield of principalities. But we have only been given a finite amount of knowledge in this life, we are not meant to know God in His fulness.
What he has given us in his Word is more than enough to last us eternity anyway.


As I said, this a very deep topic, and not something that can be discussed in a day or two and then move on.
It is as old as hills.

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:44 pm

So you still haven't answered any of my questions yet then?

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:45 pm

noleisthebest wrote:The original sin is pride, rebellion against God, reason why Satan was thrown out of Heaven and with him a host of other fallen angels, now called demons.
They are all spirits as well.
Anyway... forget it. Clearly we're not going to get anywhere.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:49 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:So you still haven't answered any of my questions yet then?
The Bible talks about people who are not interested in finding the truth:
Matt 7:6
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:27 pm

wilson_nxt wrote:But religions come from people, its what we believe in that creates religion - a schooled group of similar thought. I too believe they are manmade and please prove otherwise. For me religion served its purpose as a form of crowd/population control some time back - and still does that in some quarters. For me the need to believe in a higher power is simply a reflection of the human condition and is now being replaced by spiritualism (non-secular religion) and a broader understanding of global humanity. If there was a god then why would there be all the trouble and strife in the world? "He" would have made the world perfect so there wasn't the need to create a man of god and educate us on commandments, etc - the human race would be pre-imprinted with a good code of living. Why create a species that needed to be taught constantly how to live and conduct itself? And besides which, who made God...?

Life is a journey, not a destination...enjoy the ride, and the tennis.
Ok let's take your view that it is "manmade". What kind of "man" can create such power and energy behind those religions? Let's say Jesus existed but was a "normal" man. He still has 2000 years later a billion or so of followers. In fact the muslims also believe he is a prophet so makes that 2 billions.

So my question is: Do you think Tenez could have as many followers in 2000 years? Unlikely I guess. What about you, Lady Gaga or any one else for that matter? And I am not talking "simple followers" but people who are still ready to die for him and his belief. More importantly people who can go through life thanks to knowing there was a divine being who showed them a or The way.

What we can observe is that whether those prophetes were special people or not, they awakened something ( I am not sure what) in many people who can identify to this "sacred" concept/icon. Certainly something we cannot quite comprehend.

That's something believers and atheists simply cannot deny.


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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:44 pm

So going back to matter having a "thougth" or "spirit" side.

Look at an atom. To start with it has electrons spinning around it's core. Is that proof it lives by the way? maybe not but it's constantly spinning and vibrating. Its not dead. We might think matter is dead but it's clearly moving....even through we cannot see it from the naked eye. It also has an electric charge. +, - or neutral but more important that charge can change.

What is also kind of funny is that they have various weights and therefore powers.

More surprisingly even they can be attracted to some of their own kind or rebutted by their own and attracted by some different kind of atoms. Looks like they have relationships. Sure they are so far quite simple relationships but still they can go by pair and more. It is at this level, extremely simple element that the spirit or thought process starts. Probably a thought process as simple as their constitution but nonetheless something non-material.

Of course we know those basic atoms can mix in forms more and more complex starting with the amino acids which have led to unicellulars formation...etc...and from single cells to multiple cells all the way to human beings.

So can a rational mind explain to me when thoughts start to appear in that evolution? BN I understand you are a biologist so maybe could put light into this?

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Post by Polly 81 Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:47 pm

Indeed, Jesus was not a normal man. Maybe you've heard this before, but here's one way of putting it- Jesus was either a liar, a mad man or he was telling the truth (i.e. that he was the son of God).

The just a 'good man' theory just doesn't make it.

What is so special is that he came back to life. After His death, His followers thought he was gone for good, they were distraught because they thought that he was the one they had been waiting for, the one that had been promised all those hundreds of years before.
Something must have changed their view: Him coming back to life. That's the pivotal point. A lot of his disciples were brutally killed later on. As Tenez pointed out, they were ready to die because they knew that was the truth. Why would they be willing to do that if they knew it was a lie?

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Post by bluenose Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:57 pm

It's hard to know where to start with this one!  First thoughts; Jacques Monod wrote a wonderful book called Chance and Necessity that is very thought-provoking and hugely enjoyable.  There's a lot of genetics and evolution but it's not technical.  Also Stephen Jay Gould wrote tremendous books and essays, including a famous piece where he declared there is no conflict between science and religion because they deal with different magisteria.  Basically, science is about how the universe works and religion is about why.  Evolution is an outcome of stochastic and selective processes, not a force in itself.  If there were an "Architect" then many adaptations would be better designed!

I think we can separate spirituality and spiritual practice from religion, with its received word and authority structure.  I can appreciate that religion often provides a strong structure for spiritual practice - for instance I am a great admirer of Ramadan for its insistence on spiritual discipline and push toward meditative thought.  But Ramadan is also a perfect example of the need for adaptation, because in the north dark or light may be absolute depending on when Ramadan falls.

I think I get the sand grain thing.  I had a similar experience when I was 36, plowing through Pacific swells back to the lodge after a long hot exhilarating day of botanizing, when a group of flying fish started dancing around the boat.  I had some moments of feeling completely connected with the universe, part of a grand consciousness or something.  I didn't think of the fish as having their own consciousness though, it just felt like I with everything else was a single being.

What I took away was probably the feeling of not being me.  Which is something I could no doubt rediscover if I had the spiritual discipline to meditate!

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:00 pm

Polly 81 wrote:But Jesus was not a normal man. Maybe you've heard this before, but here's one way of putting it- Jesus was either a liar, a mad man or he was telling the truth (i.e. that he was the son of God).

The just a 'good man' theory just doesn't make it.

What is so special is that he came back to life. After His death, His followers thought he was gone for good, they were distraught because they thought that he was the one they had been waiting for, the one that had been promised all those hundreds of years before.
Something must have changed their view: Him coming back to life. That's the pivotal point. A lot of his disciples were brutally killed later on. As Tenez pointed out, they were ready to die because they knew that was the truth. Why would they be willing to do that if they knew it was a lie?
Willingness to die for Jesus is not the proof of His Deity. Suicide bombers do the same. The difference is that Christians do it to spread the truth and not willingly (suicidaly), and Muslims to "earn" their way to Allah, God of whom they are very afraid of.
He frequently rebuked the Jews as the generation that seeks the Sign (i.e. "proof").

I have spoken to many Muslims, Buddhists, JWs etc...all lost souls searching for truth. They are often in groups. One will listen and hear the word, the others will mock.
I'll never forget once in Leicester square, there was a bunch of Hare Krishnas jumping and dancing in a circle, and I came to them and said Jesus is the Lord, and one of them looked at me and said Indeed he is the Lord.
Even the devils tremble at the name of Jesus, he often rebuked them to be quiet about him.
Jesus was on a very special mission and he accomplished it on the Cross uttering his famous last words: It is finished!
He fulfilled the promise God gave Adam and Eve in the garden:
Gen 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Sin was so strong from day one, Adam & Eve's first son Cain killed his brother Abel out of jealousy.







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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:00 pm

Yes Polly but all this is what we have been told and none of us actually experienced it.
 
So sure believers are convinced the Story was true but I also understand those who simply do not associate with it.
 
What I find amazing is that there are still a very large share of people who find that faith (and prophete) in them. Cause if it was not IN them they would not believe for long and it would be very difficult to transmit to the next generation.
 
I have children for instance. And iI guess like most parents it is very difficult to teach them and educate them the way you want. And this is not new but has been like that since mankind. Yet despite all the arguments between fathers and sons, mothers and daughters Faith and prophets survived in (within) people.
 
It has only weakened in our recent generations cause we managed to replace religion by materialism/consumption. Yet people are not any happier than then and when going through hardship, poverty and recession, they tend look again to the sacred side in themrselves and see whether they can revive the divine icons in them.


Last edited by Tenez on Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:04 pm

Tenez wrote:
 
It has only weakened in our recent generations cause we managed to replace religion by materialism/consumption. Yet people are not any happier than then and when going through hardship, poverty and recession, they tend look again to the sacred side in themrselves and see whether they can revive the divine icons in them.
Exactly.
We all know people are not praying to Darwin and Hawkins when the plain is about to crash.

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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:06 pm

Yes. Though I would not mix in Darwin and Hawkins. One was a genius the other is an idiot.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:08 pm

Tenez wrote:Yes. Though I would not mix in Darwin and Hawkins. One was a genius the other is an idiot.
There will be no atheists in Hell.

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Post by bluenose Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:10 pm

I cannot even imagine how you would denigrate one of those men, much less who.

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Post by Polly 81 Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:11 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Polly 81 wrote: Why would they be willing to do that if they knew it was a lie?
Willingness to die for Jesus is not the proof of His Deity. Suicide bombers do the same. The difference is that Christians do it to spread the truth and not willingly (suicidaly), and Muslims to "earn" their way to Allah, God of whom they are very afraid of.
He frequently rebuked the Jews as the generation that seeks the Sign (i.e. "proof").
Yes, I guess what I was trying to say is that the disciples and others had first hand account of the Resurrected Jesus. They saw Him dead, they saw him alive again. Him coming back to life is a proof of his deity. And so if he didn't come back to life, why would they die.
Many people die for what they believe (suicide bombers, they have been told that Allah is the truth) but no one dies for what they know to be false (for example if Jesus had stayed dead). He's alive, the disciples knew it, He's God. Simple.

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:16 pm

Polly 81 wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Polly 81 wrote: Why would they be willing to do that if they knew it was a lie?
Willingness to die for Jesus is not the proof of His Deity. Suicide bombers do the same. The difference is that Christians do it to spread the truth and not willingly (suicidaly), and Muslims to "earn" their way to Allah, God of whom they are very afraid of.
He frequently rebuked the Jews as the generation that seeks the Sign (i.e. "proof").
Yes, I guess what I was trying to say is that the disciples and others had first hand account of the Resurrected Jesus. They saw Him dead, they saw him alive again. Him coming back to life is a proof of his deity. And so if he didn't come back to life, why would they die.
Many people die for what they believe (suicide bombers, they have been told that Allah is the truth) but no one dies for what they know to be false (for example if Jesus had stayed dead). He's alive, the disciples knew it, He's God. Simple.
Yep, can't see any gaps in logic there.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:17 pm

Polly 81 wrote: He's alive, the disciples knew it, He's God. Simple.
Yes.

John 20:27
Seeing and Believing
24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:18 pm

bluenose wrote:I think I get the sand grain thing.  I had a similar experience when I was 36, plowing through Pacific swells back to the lodge after a long hot exhilarating day of botanizing, when a group of flying fish started dancing around the boat.  I had some moments of feeling completely connected with the universe, part of a grand consciousness or something.  I didn't think of the fish as having their own consciousness though, it just felt like I with everything else was a single being.
I like the way you described your experience. It made me aware that there might be a web uniting us all on a spiritual level. It would not be surprising knowing that at the beginning we were one anyway....if the big bang theory still holds.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:19 pm

Tenez wrote:
bluenose wrote:I think I get the sand grain thing.  I had a similar experience when I was 36, plowing through Pacific swells back to the lodge after a long hot exhilarating day of botanizing, when a group of flying fish started dancing around the boat.  I had some moments of feeling completely connected with the universe, part of a grand consciousness or something.  I didn't think of the fish as having their own consciousness though, it just felt like I with everything else was a single being.
I like the way you described your experience. It made me aware that there might be a web uniting us all on a spiritual level. It would not be surprising knowing that at the beginning we were one anyway....if the big bang theory still holds.
It doesn't and never will.
But we sure come from the same set of parents: Adam and Eve.

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:20 pm

How on earth can quoting the bible be evidence for the bible being true?

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:21 pm

NITB, have you ever worked on a Sunday?

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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:22 pm

bluenose wrote:I cannot even imagine how you would denigrate one of those men, much less who.
Maybe I am mixing Hawkin with another one. There was a guy who kept making programs on the BBC trying to prove God did not exist. His name was Atkins, Hawkins, I am not sure. I realise Hawkin is the disable guy correct? Not an idiot, certainly but I am no fan however.

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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:22 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:NITB, have  you ever worked on a Sunday?
Laugh  what do you mean?

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:22 pm

Tenez wrote:
bluenose wrote:I cannot even imagine how you would denigrate one of those men, much less who.
Maybe I am mixing Hawkin with another one. There was a guy who kept making programs on the BBC trying to prove God did not exist. His name was Atkins, Hawkins, I am not sure. I realise Hawkin is the disable guy correct? Not an idiot, certainly but I am no fan however.
Hitchens? Dawkins?

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:23 pm

Tenez wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:NITB, have  you ever worked on a Sunday?
Laugh  what do you mean?
Exodus 31:15
'Whosoever does any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death'

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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:25 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:
bluenose wrote:I think I get the sand grain thing.  I had a similar experience when I was 36, plowing through Pacific swells back to the lodge after a long hot exhilarating day of botanizing, when a group of flying fish started dancing around the boat.  I had some moments of feeling completely connected with the universe, part of a grand consciousness or something.  I didn't think of the fish as having their own consciousness though, it just felt like I with everything else was a single being.
I like the way you described your experience. It made me aware that there might be a web uniting us all on a spiritual level. It would not be surprising knowing that at the beginning we were one anyway....if the big bang theory still holds.
It doesn't and never will.
But we sure come from the same set of parents: Adam and Eve.
Science and religion mix very well with me. They don't contradict each other. Even Adam and Eve have a scientific aspect for me.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:25 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:NITB, have  you ever worked on a Sunday?
John 3

3 And He entered the synagogue again, and a man was there who had a withered hand.
2 So they watched Him closely, whether He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.
3 And He said to the man who had the withered hand, “Step forward.”
4 Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent.
5 And when He had looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored as whole as the other.
6 Then the Pharisees went out and immediately plotted with the Herodians against Him, how they might destroy Him.

Just in case you don't know, Pharisees were considered the "superholy" guys at the time....and healing was considered work.

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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:26 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:NITB, have  you ever worked on a Sunday?
Laugh  what do you mean?
Exodus 31:15
'Whosoever does any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death'
I'll tell my wife. She wants me to DIY!

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Post by Tenez Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:27 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:
bluenose wrote:I cannot even imagine how you would denigrate one of those men, much less who.
Maybe I am mixing Hawkin with another one. There was a guy who kept making programs on the BBC trying to prove God did not exist. His name was Atkins, Hawkins, I am not sure. I realise Hawkin is the disable guy correct? Not an idiot, certainly but I am no fan however.
Hitchens? Dawkins?
That's him. Dawkins! what an idiot!

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:29 pm

Most Christians do not actually take the Bible literally like Polly and NITB here, but allegorically and for morals.

I think Polly and NITB, even among Christians you are in the minority in believing it all literally.

The evidence that the Bible is literally true is so paper thin, it's beyond belief. You did not manage to answer any of the questions I put to you on the Genesis:
-How was there Earth before Light?
-Is it not a ridiculous coincidence that the Holy Book only includes names of animals that humans knew about at the time? No mentions of bacteria, dinosaurs, microbes etc. ???
-If evolution is not true, then why are the bacteria evolving to be resistant towards antibiotics (I must say, most religious people admit that evolution is a fact... you're in a minority)
-The idea God actually looks like a human is ridiculous

Everytime NITB gets questioned, she finds evidence for the Bible in the Bible itself... which is simply illogical. Quoting the Bible as evidence for the Bible is not any real evidence whatsoever.

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Post by wilson_nxt Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:31 pm

Tenez wrote:
Ok let's take your view that it is "manmade". What kind of "man" can create such power and energy behind those religions? Let's say Jesus existed but was a "normal" man. He still has 2000 years later a billion or so of followers. In fact the muslims also believe he is a prophet so makes that 2 billions.

So my question is: Do you think Tenez could have as many followers in 2000 years? Unlikely I guess. What about you, Lady Gaga or any one else for that matter? And I am not talking "simple followers" but people who are still ready to die for him and his belief. More importantly people who can go through life thanks to knowing there was a divine being who showed them a or The way.

What we can observe is that whether those prophetes were special people or not, they awakened something ( I am not sure what) in many people who can identify to this "sacred" concept/icon. Certainly something we cannot quite comprehend.

That's something believers and atheists simply cannot deny.  

But that's the point. In the modern world religion is dying not growing due to better widespread education.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10458380/Christianity-at-risk-of-dying-out-in-a-generation-warns-Lord-Carey.html

Religion only prospers where education as a whole struggles.

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:32 pm

Polly 81 wrote:As Tenez pointed out, they were ready to die because they knew that was the truth. Why would they be willing to do that if they knew it was a lie?
It is possible they believed it was true, but were actually conned/ hallucinating.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:33 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:NITB, have  you ever worked on a Sunday?
Laugh  what do you mean?
Exodus 31:15
'Whosoever does any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death'
Well researched JS!!!!
You've hit the nail on the head.
Ten commandments were given to men by God for the exact reason that we should fail them. No man has ever kept those commandments.
Not for one single day.
That is why every Jew had to give sacrifice every year at Passover, when the High Priest entered into Holy of Holies. To have his sins washed away symbolically.
They were given us to see how far we were from God and in need of repentance.
That is why Jesus came in flesh, to fulfil the Law (commandments).
Only The Son of God was able to do it, Jesus was God incarnate, His father was not Joseph but God the Father. He was conceived of Holy Spirit.
He was the perfect sacrifice, the only one acceptable to God, to deal with the sin once and for all.
Jews have never accepted it and crucified Jesus. They still go through the same ritual and wait for Messiah. How sad.

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:34 pm

wilson_nxt wrote:
Religion only prospers where education as a whole struggles.
Indeed.
It's easier to make someone believe someone without any evidence if they aren't educated.
People who in the 21st century think that gays should be killed, evolution is not real etc.

HOWEVER most religious people don't take the Holy Books literally, and also believe in science as well as God. It's a few who can't understand that saying the 'earth' was created before 'light' is ridiculous.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:35 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:
bluenose wrote:I think I get the sand grain thing.  I had a similar experience when I was 36, plowing through Pacific swells back to the lodge after a long hot exhilarating day of botanizing, when a group of flying fish started dancing around the boat.  I had some moments of feeling completely connected with the universe, part of a grand consciousness or something.  I didn't think of the fish as having their own consciousness though, it just felt like I with everything else was a single being.
I like the way you described your experience. It made me aware that there might be a web uniting us all on a spiritual level. It would not be surprising knowing that at the beginning we were one anyway....if the big bang theory still holds.
It doesn't and never will.
But we sure come from the same set of parents: Adam and Eve.
Science and religion mix very well with me. They don't contradict each other. Even Adam and Eve have a scientific aspect for me.
I don't know in which way they mix, but I know one can not serve two masters.

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Post by N2D2L Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:36 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:NITB, have  you ever worked on a Sunday?
Laugh  what do you mean?
Exodus 31:15
'Whosoever does any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death'
Well researched JS!!!!
You've hit the nail on the head.
Ten commandments were given to men by God for the exact reason that we should fail them. No man has ever kept those commandments.
Not for one single day.
Are you aware that the day we allocate as Sunday is totally arbitrary. The names of the days of the week are man made, as is the decision to make a week 7 days. We could have made it 5 days per week.
For people in the 21st century to genuinely believe that working on Sunday should mean you are put to death...dear me.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:41 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:NITB, have  you ever worked on a Sunday?
Laugh  what do you mean?
Exodus 31:15
'Whosoever does any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death'
Well researched JS!!!!
You've hit the nail on the head.
Ten commandments were given to men by God for the exact reason that we should fail them. No man has ever kept those commandments.
Not for one single day.
Are you aware that the day we allocate as Sunday is totally arbitrary. The names of the days of the week are man made, as is the decision to make a week 7 days. We could have made it 5 days per week.
For people in the 21st century to genuinely believe that working on Sunday should mean you are put to death...dear me.  
JS,
unless you repent. your are doomed to death and hell whether you work every day or don't work at all.
I understand your confusion as people through not reading the Bible have made a right mess of it to suit their purposes throughout history.
You must not mix christianity and legalism.
If you really want to know the truth, read the Gospels. That is the best I can give as advice.

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