What makes a player so successful?
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N2D2L
mikeyM1000
legendkillar
noleisthebest
Tenez
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What makes a player so successful?
Common sense will tell us that it is a combination of many factors. Athletism, talent, stamina, FH, BH, etc....though this is true, I actually think it is not what makes a player successful. All those things are the common base of a professional tennis player allowing them to be in the top 100 if not 200 but we cannot say it is what brings the top players success.
For me it is clear. Success is about weapons and players have usually one weapon not more. A weapon that other players simply cannot handle while giving little weaknesses to exploit.
Look at Djokovic for instance. I really can't say his FH, BH, talent is outstanding. What really makes him so successful is that court coverage. It simply gives his opponents a smaller surface to aim for. All players when facing Djoko find themselves with a smaller court. It rushes them into mistakes, especially under pressure points where attacking players feel the need to try their luck knowing the ball will come back if they do not try going for broke .
Nadal's for instance might be viewed as having 2 weapons: court coverage, stamina and spinny ball. The fact is take one of those factor away and make it standars and Nadal simply has no chance to win a major tournament. To me despite his stamina being very excellent and his court coverage being as good as Djokovic more or less, without his powerful spinny ball he would be much easier to handle and clearly would not make the top 50 as we have seen him lose a few times against much lower ranked players when that ball was not spinning nearly as much. Nadal winning essentially thanks to his opponents' UEs simply shows how important that energy transferred to the ball is important. Watch Nadal from a neutral standpoint and you will notice that his main concern is to inject enough spin into the ball more than placing the ball. I defy any one to prove me wrong there.
So has Federer only got one weapon? and if so what is it? I guess it is a bit more complicated but like all players we can see how his game falls apart when one sand dust gets into that great sophisticated machine. For me his weapon is simply his grace, without it it might well have been another Haas, Youzhny or Stan. But he simply can do what others can't and that is simple. a second for him is not the same second than for any other player. He can see his own racquet strings distort when hitting the ball, he can move in position to hit a school book BH and time that ball as if he had all the time in the world. His weapon is that indiscernible time factor which we can call talent, grace or simply "genius" which is indeed more or less in the rare greatest athletes in history. This is even more obvious with Federer that despite changing and dropping that flat deadly FH of the pre 2007 era, he still managed to win many slams without having a what could have been before his main weapon.
What do you think make a players' successful? and what do you think is Murray's weapon..and others?
For me it is clear. Success is about weapons and players have usually one weapon not more. A weapon that other players simply cannot handle while giving little weaknesses to exploit.
Look at Djokovic for instance. I really can't say his FH, BH, talent is outstanding. What really makes him so successful is that court coverage. It simply gives his opponents a smaller surface to aim for. All players when facing Djoko find themselves with a smaller court. It rushes them into mistakes, especially under pressure points where attacking players feel the need to try their luck knowing the ball will come back if they do not try going for broke .
Nadal's for instance might be viewed as having 2 weapons: court coverage, stamina and spinny ball. The fact is take one of those factor away and make it standars and Nadal simply has no chance to win a major tournament. To me despite his stamina being very excellent and his court coverage being as good as Djokovic more or less, without his powerful spinny ball he would be much easier to handle and clearly would not make the top 50 as we have seen him lose a few times against much lower ranked players when that ball was not spinning nearly as much. Nadal winning essentially thanks to his opponents' UEs simply shows how important that energy transferred to the ball is important. Watch Nadal from a neutral standpoint and you will notice that his main concern is to inject enough spin into the ball more than placing the ball. I defy any one to prove me wrong there.
So has Federer only got one weapon? and if so what is it? I guess it is a bit more complicated but like all players we can see how his game falls apart when one sand dust gets into that great sophisticated machine. For me his weapon is simply his grace, without it it might well have been another Haas, Youzhny or Stan. But he simply can do what others can't and that is simple. a second for him is not the same second than for any other player. He can see his own racquet strings distort when hitting the ball, he can move in position to hit a school book BH and time that ball as if he had all the time in the world. His weapon is that indiscernible time factor which we can call talent, grace or simply "genius" which is indeed more or less in the rare greatest athletes in history. This is even more obvious with Federer that despite changing and dropping that flat deadly FH of the pre 2007 era, he still managed to win many slams without having a what could have been before his main weapon.
What do you think make a players' successful? and what do you think is Murray's weapon..and others?
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Excellent OP
Looking at top 4 (i.e. most successful) players at the end of 2013: Nadal, Djokovic, Ferer, Murray, one has to admit that talent is not the main ingredient any more.
With the exception of Nole when he is on fire, there is zero shot-making (i.e. talent) in that group.
Current playing conditions are sadly allowing average players to dominate from the base-line and even worse from 4m behind it.
That is tennis at its worst.
Looking at top 4 (i.e. most successful) players at the end of 2013: Nadal, Djokovic, Ferer, Murray, one has to admit that talent is not the main ingredient any more.
With the exception of Nole when he is on fire, there is zero shot-making (i.e. talent) in that group.
Current playing conditions are sadly allowing average players to dominate from the base-line and even worse from 4m behind it.
That is tennis at its worst.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I go with Connors view on mentality being what stands for the majority of success for the top players. Look at Federer. During his 'peak' everything in his game and even winning was natural to him. I think what separates players like Federer, Nadal and Djokovic is that additional 10% they get from mental strength. I would so love to put Murray in that bracket even with his Slam success, but to me I don't think winning comes as natural to him as it does those guys. The sheer belief to win is what separates the top elite guys from the rest. You sprinkle a bit of Djokovic's mentality in Wawrinka and you have a Slam winner on the horizon.
Stan is starting show more belief in himself and his game and it is refreshing to see, similar with Del Potro. You can see these 2 players becoming those that the likes of Nadal, Djokovic and Murray want to avoid on a good day.
The question on Murray's strength. I used to say variety, but now I would say stamina. He has become a ball basher without the power.
Stan is starting show more belief in himself and his game and it is refreshing to see, similar with Del Potro. You can see these 2 players becoming those that the likes of Nadal, Djokovic and Murray want to avoid on a good day.
The question on Murray's strength. I used to say variety, but now I would say stamina. He has become a ball basher without the power.
legendkillar- Posts : 3266
Join date : 2012-10-02
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Well I think that Connors strength was not his mental strength as much as his gamesmanship. Each time he was in trouble he would use gamesmanship. In fact it is well documented now the gamesmanship started in the changing room.
Regarding the mental side of the other players I will indeed agree about Federer but I cannot validate for Djoko and Nadal. I will the day they are able to win on fast surfaces without the help of their fitness. Their fitness plays such a force in their game that it does not give us the ability to gauge their mental strength objectively.
Just the fact that nadal simply refuses to play when not 110% is enough for me to completely take him out of the mentally strong players list. We have seen this year Federer play with a back injury and losing to much lesser player but fighting like a lion even winning Wimby 2012 with a back problem. That's mental strength.
Nadal, Djoko and Murray are fighters certainly, playing with large margins so their mental side is actually hardly tested. For them the question is not about having the guts to aim for lines and delivering (which is actually what is needed to gauge nerves and mental strength) but outlasting physically the opponent.
I am afraid here LK I think you are taking a bad example.
Had you mentioned Pete then I could not have argued. The way he saved those 3 BPs v Agassi at Wimby 2000 (was 1999?) by hitting 2 serve aces is gutsy. Margins to do that are extremely thin, risk is huge and no physical factor is playing here. ...very different than when considering the current, extremely consistent crop who actually bank on their opponents to make UEs on those crucial points.
Regarding the mental side of the other players I will indeed agree about Federer but I cannot validate for Djoko and Nadal. I will the day they are able to win on fast surfaces without the help of their fitness. Their fitness plays such a force in their game that it does not give us the ability to gauge their mental strength objectively.
Just the fact that nadal simply refuses to play when not 110% is enough for me to completely take him out of the mentally strong players list. We have seen this year Federer play with a back injury and losing to much lesser player but fighting like a lion even winning Wimby 2012 with a back problem. That's mental strength.
Nadal, Djoko and Murray are fighters certainly, playing with large margins so their mental side is actually hardly tested. For them the question is not about having the guts to aim for lines and delivering (which is actually what is needed to gauge nerves and mental strength) but outlasting physically the opponent.
I am afraid here LK I think you are taking a bad example.
Had you mentioned Pete then I could not have argued. The way he saved those 3 BPs v Agassi at Wimby 2000 (was 1999?) by hitting 2 serve aces is gutsy. Margins to do that are extremely thin, risk is huge and no physical factor is playing here. ...very different than when considering the current, extremely consistent crop who actually bank on their opponents to make UEs on those crucial points.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I don't know about that Tenbo. I think Djokovic showed balls in that US Open v Federer 2011. That took a lot of bottle and yes stamina to hang in the match, but ultimately he shifted that match with his mentality.
For me sometimes we need to look above Stamina/Fitness not demonstrating mental strength when it takes that to maintain it. Murray won Wimbledon with a bad back, that for me showed guts.
For me sometimes we need to look above Stamina/Fitness not demonstrating mental strength when it takes that to maintain it. Murray won Wimbledon with a bad back, that for me showed guts.
legendkillar- Posts : 3266
Join date : 2012-10-02
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Excellent example. Who actually collapses first under pressure in that match? Look at it in every detail again if you can on Youtube?:legendkillar wrote:I don't know about that Tenbo. I think Djokovic showed balls in that US Open v Federer 2011. That took a lot of bottle and yes stamina to hang in the match, but ultimately he shifted that match with his mentality.
Who lost that 1st set TB? who cracked making the easy mistakes? Who is upset and broken again in that 2nd set? And in that 5th set who again loses that crucial break first, DFs included!!!? And who gives up first finally swinging freely? This swinging freely at MPs down is THE PROOF that Djoko has goven up and starts to hit shot as if he had nothing to lose...but when he had everything to lose, he is the one who cracked first! Only when Federer got really tired and upset did Djoko manage to cross that line.....again!
So thanks for that excellent example which supports my view.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Mental strength is a very large factor. It's what enables the best players to produce aces when break point down. Or to remain calm and focussed enough to win the key points and the tie-breaks. It's a discipline, like all the other disciplines required to make a top player.
If a player can't stand up to a bit of gamesmanship, then that mental frailty is a weakness.
Connors was more aloof in the dressing room - he simply didn't interact with the other players and some found that unfriendly and intimidating. Those with mental strength didn't let it affect them.
It was a bit harder to ignore Lendl, who would actively bully the lesser players, either verbally ("This is how many games I will let you win") or physically - deliberately disrupting their warm-up. Oddly, I doubt he needed to do it, given how good he was - maybe he just enjoyed it.
Dedication is another factor - the tour is full of players with potential, but without the desire to do the hard work/make the necessary sacrifices. That's understandable - how many of us give 100% to our jobs?
Consistency is also a big difference between a top 100 player and a top 10 player. All the top 100 can play as well as a top-tenner on occasion, but can't reproduce it often enough. Is that mental strength, determination, physical strength - all of those and more.
If a player can't stand up to a bit of gamesmanship, then that mental frailty is a weakness.
Connors was more aloof in the dressing room - he simply didn't interact with the other players and some found that unfriendly and intimidating. Those with mental strength didn't let it affect them.
It was a bit harder to ignore Lendl, who would actively bully the lesser players, either verbally ("This is how many games I will let you win") or physically - deliberately disrupting their warm-up. Oddly, I doubt he needed to do it, given how good he was - maybe he just enjoyed it.
Dedication is another factor - the tour is full of players with potential, but without the desire to do the hard work/make the necessary sacrifices. That's understandable - how many of us give 100% to our jobs?
Consistency is also a big difference between a top 100 player and a top 10 player. All the top 100 can play as well as a top-tenner on occasion, but can't reproduce it often enough. Is that mental strength, determination, physical strength - all of those and more.
mikeyM1000- Posts : 231
Join date : 2012-08-14
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Well yes very much agree and this is why I don't think we should put in the same league players who actually don't rely on those to win matches but legs and lungs. An ace at the right time may help them but frankly this is not how Nadal , Murray and Djoko win their matches nowadays, its it?mikeyM1000 wrote:Mental strength is a very large factor. It's what enables the best players to produce aces when break point down. Or to remain calm and focussed enough to win the key points and the tie-breaks. It's a discipline, like all the other disciplines required to make a top player.
Easily said but the players abusing gamesmanship is no more professional that those being affected by it and this is why not many regard Connors as a great player nowadays. No one can prepare a player to face a 25k crowd mocking you cause a dirty player uses his popularity to gain advantage. How would Connors have reacted had the slam been in Praque with Lendl insulting him?If a player can't stand up to a bit of gamesmanship, then that mental frailty is a weakness.
Connors was more aloof in the dressing room - he simply didn't interact with the other players and some found that unfriendly and intimidating. Those with mental strength didn't let it affect them.
Never read any of those...did you get that from the Sun? I mean seriously.It was a bit harder to ignore Lendl, who would actively bully the lesser players, either verbally ("This is how many games I will let you win") or physically - deliberately disrupting their warm-up. Oddly, I doubt he needed to do it, given how good he was - maybe he just enjoyed it.
All that applies to all players. Its what makes then tennis players.Dedication is another factor - the tour is full of players with potential, but without the desire to do the hard work/make the necessary sacrifices. That's understandable - how many of us give 100% to our jobs?
Consistency is also a big difference between a top 100 player and a top 10 player. All the top 100 can play as well as a top-tenner on occasion, but can't reproduce it often enough. Is that mental strength, determination, physical strength - all of those and more
It's special weapons that make them stand out. That's what the OP is trying to show here.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I don't want to compare Fed with Nadal, Djoko etc because I've read and said pretty all I want to on that subject over the years, so won't go further into that initial point of agreement.
I haven't seen much evidence to support the statement that "not many regard Connors as a great player nowadays", though I have read plenty of articles in recent years that would disagree with that. Remember that Connors achieved his initial success despite being a figure of hate, even in the USA - the crowds usually wanted him to lose for the early/mid part of his career.
There are many accounts of Lendl's locker room behaviour from many ex-tennis players and insiders. Outside of tennis he seems a nice enough guy. The most positive account came from Sampras, who was surprised he wasn't on the receiving end of Lendl's behaviour, that he'd heard much about (I don't think Sampras read The Sun ) - he put this down to Lendl being at the end of his career and possibly wanting to become involved in Sampras' management team.
As for the weapons/consistency issue - there are some players out there with bigger weapons than most of the top 10, but they simply can't apply them consistently enough. For the best of the best, there is always a weapon, but then you get the likes of Chang (as one example) who was a slam winner and steady number 2 without possessing a true weapon. Depends on what you define as success - multi-slam No 1 only?
I haven't seen much evidence to support the statement that "not many regard Connors as a great player nowadays", though I have read plenty of articles in recent years that would disagree with that. Remember that Connors achieved his initial success despite being a figure of hate, even in the USA - the crowds usually wanted him to lose for the early/mid part of his career.
There are many accounts of Lendl's locker room behaviour from many ex-tennis players and insiders. Outside of tennis he seems a nice enough guy. The most positive account came from Sampras, who was surprised he wasn't on the receiving end of Lendl's behaviour, that he'd heard much about (I don't think Sampras read The Sun ) - he put this down to Lendl being at the end of his career and possibly wanting to become involved in Sampras' management team.
As for the weapons/consistency issue - there are some players out there with bigger weapons than most of the top 10, but they simply can't apply them consistently enough. For the best of the best, there is always a weapon, but then you get the likes of Chang (as one example) who was a slam winner and steady number 2 without possessing a true weapon. Depends on what you define as success - multi-slam No 1 only?
mikeyM1000- Posts : 231
Join date : 2012-08-14
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Wasn't Connors the one who brought the DBH to the big stage..well, that writes him off as a great player straight away!
As for mental strength, having read quite a few comments using that expression, I can see that people are mixes up and mean very different things by it: confidence, belief, guts, composure.
These are very different things.
As for mental strength, having read quite a few comments using that expression, I can see that people are mixes up and mean very different things by it: confidence, belief, guts, composure.
These are very different things.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Pretty detailed and fair analysis this ^noleisthebest wrote:Wasn't Connors the one who brought the DBH to the big stage..well, that writes him off as a great player straight away!
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
Join date : 2013-05-03
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I guess then Djokovic isn't a great player?
Or is Djokovic's DHBH ok I suppose...
Or is Djokovic's DHBH ok I suppose...
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
Join date : 2013-05-03
Re: What makes a player so successful?
No, he isn't. In historical context, you cannot be considered a great player if you play the game with a DBH.Julia Santamaria wrote:I guess then Djokovic isn't a great player?
Or is Djokovic's DHBH ok I suppose...
But I suppose that's too much for you to understand.
Stick with your Nadal community for the feelgood factor because truth hurts.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Forensic bulletproof detailed level of analysis above ^
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
Join date : 2013-05-03
Re: What makes a player so successful?
And all this while I thought Borg is an all time great... sigh
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
Join date : 2013-05-03
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Changs's weapon was his court coverage. To me this is a real weapon....a weapon that essentially works on clay hence why he won there I guess.
I am not saying that a weapon is enough to win you slams. The biggest weapon in tennis history is probably Karlovic's serve. Not a shot, or an ability, like stamina, court coverage has won as many points per shot or points played as Karlo's serve...yet he won no slam. Cause his problems in the other departments could not support that weapon all the way. But once you have that base which is constantly evolving (stamina, consistent FH, BH, etc...) you need something outstanding to win slams...and more so to win multiple slams....something other have not. My point is that being a compete player is not enough, regardless of how dedicated, professional, focused and mentally strong you can be. In the past you could....not anymore.
Hewitt for instance had a weapon back then which was court coverage and stamina....helped of course by his fighting powers but the day his court coverage and stamina became the norm...regardless of being injured or not he ended up being beaten right and left.
The new generation will come through (I think Tomic is right on this) and they will by developing the weapons to pierce through that court coverage and stamina. There will always be players whose strength will be to covert court and bring the ball back, better versions of Djoko and Nadal but also there will be players able to hit harder than before.
I also believe a next genius will be a serve volleyer. someone who will not allow to be dictated from the back of the court. It seems difficult for now but I am pretty sure there is space to exploit there. It's a risky business as on a bad day you are most likely to lose but imagine someone like llodra or Gilles they can take a set of Nadal and Murray (or get very close) preventing them to impose on them the long rallies. They are of course extremely talented but someone with even more talent could really create panick amongst the top guys. A bit what Stakovski did v Federer in Wimbledon. Sure Federer might have been not 100% but that's the idea.
Hope 2014 will bring those all azimuth weapons great success. I am fed up of long rallies. I have had my share!
I am not saying that a weapon is enough to win you slams. The biggest weapon in tennis history is probably Karlovic's serve. Not a shot, or an ability, like stamina, court coverage has won as many points per shot or points played as Karlo's serve...yet he won no slam. Cause his problems in the other departments could not support that weapon all the way. But once you have that base which is constantly evolving (stamina, consistent FH, BH, etc...) you need something outstanding to win slams...and more so to win multiple slams....something other have not. My point is that being a compete player is not enough, regardless of how dedicated, professional, focused and mentally strong you can be. In the past you could....not anymore.
Hewitt for instance had a weapon back then which was court coverage and stamina....helped of course by his fighting powers but the day his court coverage and stamina became the norm...regardless of being injured or not he ended up being beaten right and left.
The new generation will come through (I think Tomic is right on this) and they will by developing the weapons to pierce through that court coverage and stamina. There will always be players whose strength will be to covert court and bring the ball back, better versions of Djoko and Nadal but also there will be players able to hit harder than before.
I also believe a next genius will be a serve volleyer. someone who will not allow to be dictated from the back of the court. It seems difficult for now but I am pretty sure there is space to exploit there. It's a risky business as on a bad day you are most likely to lose but imagine someone like llodra or Gilles they can take a set of Nadal and Murray (or get very close) preventing them to impose on them the long rallies. They are of course extremely talented but someone with even more talent could really create panick amongst the top guys. A bit what Stakovski did v Federer in Wimbledon. Sure Federer might have been not 100% but that's the idea.
Hope 2014 will bring those all azimuth weapons great success. I am fed up of long rallies. I have had my share!
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I've never liked Borg much, always preferred McEnroe.Julia Santamaria wrote:And all this while I thought Borg is an all time great... sigh
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
That young Frenchie Herbert was quite a breath of fresh air, I hope he doesn't disappear into a black hole now.Tenez wrote:Changs's weapon was his court coverage. To me this is a real weapon....a weapon that essentially works on clay hence why he won there I guess.
could....not anymore.
The new generation will come through (I think Tomic is right on this) and they will by developing the weapons to pierce through that court coverage and stamina. There will always be players whose strength will be to covert court and bring the ball back, better versions of Djoko and Nadal but also there will be players able to hit harder than before.
I also believe a next genius will be a serve volleyer. someone who will not allow to be dictated from the back of the court. It seems difficult for now but I am pretty sure there is space to exploit there. It's a risky business as on a bad day you are most likely to lose but imagine someone like llodra or Gilles they can take a set of Nadal and Murray (or get very close) preventing them to impose on them the long rallies. They are of course extremely talented but someone with even more talent could really create panick amongst the top guys. A bit what Stakovski did v Federer in Wimbledon. Sure Federer might have been not 100% but that's the idea.
Hope 2014 will bring those all azimuth weapons great success. I am fed up of long rallies. I have had my share!
The problem I think is all these young players are simply too tall for tennis.
There is always a trade-off somewhere, and with them it's lack of speed and court coverage.
In current slow conditions, they can be relatively easy prey despite their power.
Maybe if things got quicker.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
That's we thought but look at Delpo, Murray! .....and more so look at Bolt. Nowadays one can be tall and mobile.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I like your optimism, so will stick with it .Tenez wrote:That's we thought but look at Delpo, Murray! .....and more so look at Bolt. Nowadays one can be tall and mobile.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I still find it amazing how fast basketball players are. Lebron, 6'8, for instance can apparently run the 40 yard dash in 4.6 seconds. Now that is astonishing.
luvsports!- Posts : 4718
Join date : 2012-09-28
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Yes that is extremely fast. However running right and left on a tennis is a very different challenge for tall people.
Despite Berdych huge legs he mouving is still his problem. And if Delpo was moving nearly as well as Nadal and Djoko he would be number 1 by some margins.
Despite Berdych huge legs he mouving is still his problem. And if Delpo was moving nearly as well as Nadal and Djoko he would be number 1 by some margins.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
The more I think about it, someone roughly 185 cm tall, with a good serve, movement FH and a bit of guts cold do the trick!
Darn, if only Nole had a better FH!!!
Darn, if only Nole had a better FH!!!
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I think Nole's FH is actually comparatively better than his BH. he can hit it flat (though rarely) but his loopy one finds very good angles and forces lots of running while being very safe. Not great looking by any standard but like all his game efficient.
Djoko I am sorry to say has not a game nice to the eye....except when he plays Nadal.
Djoko I am sorry to say has not a game nice to the eye....except when he plays Nadal.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Yes, his FH is good, but still not a weapon.
If it was a weapon, his game would be different. I think he has an attacking mindset, just no weapons to fulfil it.
He played differently in his Wilson days and I really enjoyed his matches with Fed in 2007, esp USO final.
Much better than any Fedal.
If it was a weapon, his game would be different. I think he has an attacking mindset, just no weapons to fulfil it.
He played differently in his Wilson days and I really enjoyed his matches with Fed in 2007, esp USO final.
Much better than any Fedal.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
We actually talked about our "strenghts" in the club once....and people were mentioning FHs and BHs, and when it came to me I weighed everything in my mind and then gave an answer that surprised me: I said my main strength is my love of tennis.
So maybe, that's Fed's weapon right now, the fire inside that gets him going despite all difficulties.
So maybe, that's Fed's weapon right now, the fire inside that gets him going despite all difficulties.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I think Federer has what Wayne Gretzky had - unbelievable anticipation because of timing. It seems as though they experience time differently, they have an extra little bit somehow. It's the same sort of thing great singers can do, they take control of time and make you breathe with them. It's very rare and I think must include a muscle/balance component because in athletes and dancers you see an ability to float that is uncanny.
bluenose- Posts : 82
Join date : 2013-11-10
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I think what makes Federer stand out is ultimately his outstanding hand to eye coordination.
That, coupled with his superb athleticism and movement enables him to always have the game on his racquet, because it is he who dictates play.
Then when you add his sweet ball-striking, he gets additional bit of time by taking it away from the opponent.
And he doesn't waste his own time on top of it all, he just goes for it full on.
Now that slow conditions have taken that extra time he's had, i.e. annuled his talent factor, he is forced to either grind or rush the net.
We are robbed of the fulness his talent's display.
It's crime against tennis!
That, coupled with his superb athleticism and movement enables him to always have the game on his racquet, because it is he who dictates play.
Then when you add his sweet ball-striking, he gets additional bit of time by taking it away from the opponent.
And he doesn't waste his own time on top of it all, he just goes for it full on.
Now that slow conditions have taken that extra time he's had, i.e. annuled his talent factor, he is forced to either grind or rush the net.
We are robbed of the fulness his talent's display.
It's crime against tennis!
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I had a bit of good tennis withdrawal symptoms this evening and watched this clip.
Great match, played by a most wonderful player. When you watch her, you see that same spirit Federer has. It really is fantastic!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tsRiKRtaVDY
Could Justine have been more successful?
WTA has the same problem as ATP.
Great match, played by a most wonderful player. When you watch her, you see that same spirit Federer has. It really is fantastic!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tsRiKRtaVDY
Could Justine have been more successful?
WTA has the same problem as ATP.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Although many words could be written here, I think or I can dare to say, that if somebody wants to succeed at tennis, there are three basic aspects which are fundamental (they are also valid for other sports) and one maybe not less important, so here they are:
1) fast body reactions, quick legs and hands and body coordination
2) mental strength (born confidence) and that goes like hand in hand with intelligence (no stupid tennis player can't be a top player, no way). Tennis is an unique in this area. Other sports as football, hockey etc. don't need as much in this regard.
3) right traits of personality (highly competitive, hardworking)
and good luck, luck for a right body constitution, a coach, a family, an injury free.
1) fast body reactions, quick legs and hands and body coordination
2) mental strength (born confidence) and that goes like hand in hand with intelligence (no stupid tennis player can't be a top player, no way). Tennis is an unique in this area. Other sports as football, hockey etc. don't need as much in this regard.
3) right traits of personality (highly competitive, hardworking)
and good luck, luck for a right body constitution, a coach, a family, an injury free.
paulcz- Posts : 1774
Join date : 2012-07-14
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Yes that is what I was trying to say in my OP. They simply can do more things than their peers in a given time. They evolve in another time dimension.bluenose wrote:I think Federer has what Wayne Gretzky had - unbelievable anticipation because of timing. It seems as though they experience time differently, they have an extra little bit somehow. It's the same sort of thing great singers can do, they take control of time and make you breathe with them. It's very rare and I think must include a muscle/balance component because in athletes and dancers you see an ability to float that is uncanny.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Very good point. And the main problem with those slow conds is that gruelling physical tennis simply destroys talent as the match lengthens. Before rallies were short enough that tennis coupled with rest every other game would allow talent to express well down the end of matches. Nowadays look at the score of when Murray, Nadal and Djoko play the rest of the field....in 90% of cases the battle is only in the first set or 2..after that it's one way traffic and one sided scores such as 61 or 62 if not a bagel.noleisthebest wrote:Now that slow conditions have taken that extra time he's had, i.e. annuled his talent factor, he is forced to either grind or rush the net.
We are robbed of the fulness his talent's display.
It's crime against tennis!
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Very watchable tennis actually. Serena looked quite thinner compared to now...and the weight of her shots certainly not has powerful as now.noleisthebest wrote:I had a bit of good tennis withdrawal symptoms this evening and watched this clip.
Great match, played by a most wonderful player. When you watch her, you see that same spirit Federer has. It really is fantastic!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tsRiKRtaVDY
Could Justine have been more successful?
WTA has the same problem as ATP.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Sure that works for most professional sports...but what makes the top players so successful?paulcz wrote:Although many words could be written here, I think or I can dare to say, that if somebody wants to succeed at tennis, there are three basic aspects which are fundamental (they are also valid for other sports) and one maybe not less important, so here they are:
1) fast body reactions, quick legs and hands and body coordination
2) mental strength (born confidence) and that goes like hand in hand with intelligence (no stupid tennis player can't be a top player, no way). Tennis is an unique in this area. Other sports as football, hockey etc. don't need as much in this regard.
3) right traits of personality (highly competitive, hardworking)
and good luck, luck for a right body constitution, a coach, a family, an injury free.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Yes, that's a strange phenomenon now.Tenez wrote:And the main problem with those slow conds is that gruelling physical tennis simply destroys talent as the match lengthens. Before rallies were short enough that tennis coupled with rest every other game would allow talent to express well down the end of matches. Nowadays look at the score of when Murray, Nadal and Djoko play the rest of the field....in 90% of cases the battle is only in the first set or 2..after that it's one way traffic and one sided scores such as 61 or 62 if not a bagel.
Too much is being talked and done about fitness, just look at Murray!
As a result, their bodies are falling apart and are demanding the season shorter, cut out hard court tournaments, 2 year ranking....imagine Nadal running ATP!
Even players with the SBH have "cottoned on" and caught up with the pack: Robredo, Youzhny, Kholi...
That Federer-Robredo USO match was scary in that respect.
Instead of using his SBH to attack, Robredo just kept rallying and rallying, with the occasional short angle BH as a "winner".
Remember all those 5 setters he played in RG this year? He even managed to knock Monfils out.
There are probably fewer than 10 players in top 100 who actually volley now.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
I must repeat my three basic aspects written above. I have been doing some sports on some competitive level and understood that only talent is not enough (just two first aspects). Talent can speed up and make it easy to get to the top, but sport and tennis in particular need a great resolution and hard work. As Lendl said, behind a top player is about 80% real hard work, the rest is talent. Mental side aspect differ the TOP players from very good players.Tenez wrote:Sure that works for most professional sports...but what makes the top players so successful?paulcz wrote:Although many words could be written here, I think or I can dare to say, that if somebody wants to succeed at tennis, there are three basic aspects which are fundamental (they are also valid for other sports) and one maybe not less important, so here they are:
1) fast body reactions, quick legs and hands and body coordination
2) mental strength (born confidence) and that goes like hand in hand with intelligence (no stupid tennis player can't be a top player, no way). Tennis is an unique in this area. Other sports as football, hockey etc. don't need as much in this regard.
3) right traits of personality (highly competitive, hardworking)
and good luck, luck for a right body constitution, a coach, a family, an injury free.
paulcz- Posts : 1774
Join date : 2012-07-14
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Well that I know but what you would call successful for you would be to be top 100.
They are all fit, all work very hard and all mentally tough yet all can have their mental melting when faced against a weapon they cannot cope with.
They are all fit, all work very hard and all mentally tough yet all can have their mental melting when faced against a weapon they cannot cope with.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
You can't generalize strength and weapons of players. Each player's game elements work with other opponents differently and surfaces, balls, shape and stamina play a big role in it.Tenez wrote:Well that I know but what you would call successful for you would be to be top 100.
They are all fit, all work very hard and all mentally tough yet all can have their mental melting when faced against a weapon they cannot cope with.
To get into TOP100 is a milestone for every player. It gives you a sign that your hardwork paid off.
I remember when our regional player had a party as he got into TOP1000. What a celebration it was.
Every player has a weakness, so my personnel goal was to improve that weaker game element. I prefer allround constructive game, no stubborn bashing from BL neither furious rushing to the net for volleys.
Now, I don't know if I has answered to your question again
paulcz- Posts : 1774
Join date : 2012-07-14
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Generally what makes a tennis player successful:
a. ability (in tennis this means reaction time, touch, shot selection and a whole host of things)
b. will to win
c. bottle / mental strength
d. athleticism
e. speed
In modern tennis, unfortunately we also have to add:
f. physique / strength (biggerer is usually betterer)
g. height (optimal 6 feet to 6 feet 4. )
It did used to be the case that ability was king, but now it's playing second fiddle to strength, speed and height. There are hardly any smaller players winning the big prizes now compared to yesteryear, and there's no way Laver would be the same player in today's dumbed down conditions. If you like watching endless rallies on every surface and the same muscle bound mutants winning every tournament, you don't really appreciate fairness, tennis, or sport.
a. ability (in tennis this means reaction time, touch, shot selection and a whole host of things)
b. will to win
c. bottle / mental strength
d. athleticism
e. speed
In modern tennis, unfortunately we also have to add:
f. physique / strength (biggerer is usually betterer)
g. height (optimal 6 feet to 6 feet 4. )
It did used to be the case that ability was king, but now it's playing second fiddle to strength, speed and height. There are hardly any smaller players winning the big prizes now compared to yesteryear, and there's no way Laver would be the same player in today's dumbed down conditions. If you like watching endless rallies on every surface and the same muscle bound mutants winning every tournament, you don't really appreciate fairness, tennis, or sport.
Daniel- Posts : 3645
Join date : 2013-11-06
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Leander Paes is for me the perfect example of what you describe FK. When young he beat Pete thanks to amazing talent (ability) but his short size and the constant demand of physical fitness already then.
It's very simple, imagine Federer being 10cm (3inchs less), than he is. He probably would have lost all the close matches he has had in his career ...and more. Essentially because generating the same power as he has would have been difficult and more exhausting. His reach would have been lessened too.
His H2H v O Rochus is so telling. He got creamed by the latter during all their childhood until Fed became physically strong enough. This is why naughty OR kept telling him he would never be a successful player.
Paes is certainly one of the most talented player of the last 3 decades. But in tennis talent without that sharp fitness is huge handicap.
Krishnan was also comparable talent wise with McEnroe but already then it was fitness that made a difference.
The problem with nowadays is fitness dictates everything amongst the top 10 players. It's simple slams are shared between the top 3 players (Murray, Djoko and Nadal) and that has been roughly the case for the last 3 years. The fittest win. If you don't have their level of fitness you have simply no chance. Only when you are fit enough then skills/ability and mental strength can make the difference.
But if we look at it Nadal was fit enough this year even to win 2 slams without being the mentally strongest nor most talented player of the 3.
It says a lot about how important fitness, much more than mental strength!
It's very simple, imagine Federer being 10cm (3inchs less), than he is. He probably would have lost all the close matches he has had in his career ...and more. Essentially because generating the same power as he has would have been difficult and more exhausting. His reach would have been lessened too.
His H2H v O Rochus is so telling. He got creamed by the latter during all their childhood until Fed became physically strong enough. This is why naughty OR kept telling him he would never be a successful player.
Paes is certainly one of the most talented player of the last 3 decades. But in tennis talent without that sharp fitness is huge handicap.
Krishnan was also comparable talent wise with McEnroe but already then it was fitness that made a difference.
The problem with nowadays is fitness dictates everything amongst the top 10 players. It's simple slams are shared between the top 3 players (Murray, Djoko and Nadal) and that has been roughly the case for the last 3 years. The fittest win. If you don't have their level of fitness you have simply no chance. Only when you are fit enough then skills/ability and mental strength can make the difference.
But if we look at it Nadal was fit enough this year even to win 2 slams without being the mentally strongest nor most talented player of the 3.
It says a lot about how important fitness, much more than mental strength!
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Did they play much as juniors tenez? I just looked at their h2h and their first match was in '05.
luvsports!- Posts : 4718
Join date : 2012-09-28
Re: What makes a player so successful?
You mean between OR and Fed? They played a lot on the junior and satellite tour (according to Federer) and Federer said he kept beating him right and left. I read that on a couple of interview from Federer.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: What makes a player so successful?
yes rochus vs feds. The head to head now is like 8-0 or something.
luvsports!- Posts : 4718
Join date : 2012-09-28
Re: What makes a player so successful?
Yes but all the previous ATP matches are not recorded.
Go to Nadal's players activity on the ATP site. and pick 2001 or 2002. You will see that his w/l ratio is very different even from the matches recorded. Some are recorded others are not and I am talking here of the junior and sat tour between OR and Fed.
Go to Nadal's players activity on the ATP site. and pick 2001 or 2002. You will see that his w/l ratio is very different even from the matches recorded. Some are recorded others are not and I am talking here of the junior and sat tour between OR and Fed.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
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