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ATP World Tour Finals LONDON 2013

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:17 pm

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:18 pm

There you go...when "confidence" really mattered, Stan was 3m behind the baseline.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:18 pm

luvsports! wrote:im not talking about rafa.
i am comparing stan with feds.
Sure But even now Fed now will play gutsier than Stan...going for riskier shots than Stan and certainly much more composure on the big points.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:20 pm

Yes, amazing nadal the scrapper gets amazing luck on key poiints. It's quite funny because this is exactly what you see at club level too. So many times I have seen players who should have crossed the line but for some reasons the one pushing the ball up ends up winning the match thanks to a combination of terrible scrapping and the attacker losing his nerves.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:22 pm

luvsports! wrote:I think you guys are harsh on stan. 
He has hit two brilliant running fh's this match, has reached a career high this year, tested djoko to the limit and battered murray at the US. 
He's giving it a good go vs rafa, only his 5th tiebreak he's reached in 12 encounters.
I am not harsh at all. I love his game but he still hasn;t got the composure. That's all I am saying.

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:24 pm

You love his game? Sure doesn't sound like it. Most players pale in comparison to feds, but on his own I love getting behind stan. WHen he is on his game, he is fantastic!

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:26 pm

luvsports! wrote:You love his game? Sure doesn't sound like it. Most players pale in comparison to feds, but on his own I love getting behind stan. WHen he is on his game, he is fantastic!
Where do you read me criticising his game?

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:27 pm

Am I the only one having problem with the Barclays atp wtf site? It's ridiculously slow and clumsy.

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:29 pm

haha i cant believe im defending stan as much as this!
Sorry i was talking to nitb, more than you tenez.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:31 pm

Very good points from Henman about court coaching and you feel Tim doesn;t like Nadal while Newcastle is lost somewhere inside nadal's bum! I guess that's why Nadal keeps pinching it.

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:34 pm

Laugh nice line!
AHhhh stann Sad. Defending for his life is rafa and draws the error, again.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:40 pm

Nadal is perhaps the most difficult to beat.. ever in the history of tennis. He is just too good for Stan..

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:44 pm

Stan may run close to a millimeter within reaching Nadal, but Nadal will stay ahead. I just hope stan beat Ferrer and qualifies for the semis.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:58 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Nadal is perhaps the most difficult to beat.. ever in the history of tennis. He is just too good for Stan..
I think the most difficult player to beat is the one who had the most win/loss ratio in his best years and I think Fed was H&S above everybody else.....bar clay of course.

But I agree he is tough to beat cause it requires sweating a lot.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:58 pm

luvsports! wrote:haha i cant believe im defending stan as much as this!
Sorry i was talking to nitb, more than you tenez.
You mean I am not allowed to criticise a player if I like him?
I just tried to show why Stan has not won any sets off Nadal, it's not all one way street.
It's easy to get carried away with Stan's shotmaking, but did you see how he played the last few points of the TB?
No courage at all,he yielded the baseline control to Nadal and moved 3m behind it, easy prey for Nadal from there.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:03 pm

I woudl actually fancy Fed again v Nadal here.

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:04 pm

It's your guys forum, you can do what you want. I just thought you were comparing him to feds too much and not appreciating him on his own merit. 
I think he realises he cannot take the ball early consistently when the ball is above his head on the bh. But I think he's putting up a decent fight atm.

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:07 pm

Clubbed that one!
Btw new recruit could be coming in to OTF smiley

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:08 pm

Yes, but he squanders all that edfort when the rubber hits the road, that's what frustrates me!
And this is not YTF it's OTF smiley

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:11 pm

Tenez wrote:I woudl actually fancy Fed again v Nadal here.
I saw that scenario as soon as the draw came out
Another Nole Fed final coud be on the cards on Monday.
You'll need to cheer for Nole to take out
Delpo in straights tomorrow, though. Winking


Last edited by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:12 pm

Is that not ok I asked someone to come over? I thought you wanted that?

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:15 pm

WHAT A POINT STAN!

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:23 pm

Stan fighting back for 4-4 from 4-1 down! Gutsy!

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:27 pm

I am in the Post office queue, looking at live score only

GO STAAAAAN!!!!! diva

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:29 pm

7-6 7-6 Sad

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:34 pm

he needs the composure and for that he needs to grow out of this fear on the big points. The way he collapsed there once again when he was so close is no coincidence.

I perfectly understand that the pressure is on him on those big points cause he has to find the small margins as opposed to Nadal who is only scrapping....but I just think he created too many of those not to convert the important ones. His FH on his first SP (2nd set) was certainly a panicked one.

This is where Djoko and Federer to a lesser extend are much better. They simply don't panick nearly as much. Though it is easier for Djoko as he can rally for ever too and has a DH.

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Post by paulcz on Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:22 pm

That is a pity that Stan didn't go for it more. Two lost TB's by two balls, there is no possible closest loss.
 
I saw only couple of balls and was quite disappointed by Stan's approach to this match. He played too lukewarmly from the beginning. He did not play with 100% focus and that is it. I thought that he would want to succeed and go for it fully, but there was a sheer calculation that he has still match with Feru, so that he gets another chance.
 
Stan is still impatient at the key points of his matches. I also thought that he would be in a better shape with a better fighting spirit. Although he looks slimmer, he is still lazy on the court. His mental power is just not there.
 
That is the difference between top players and their followers. Some of them just miss this mental power when playing key points. Except Stan there are typical examples as Berd, Feru, Almagro, Gasquet and many others. At least Feru managed to go through this mental barrier at Paris.
 
Although I don't like watching Berd's matches, today evening I will look at him with a special curiosity. As he spoke so ambitiously about WTF, I need to check whether he is able to show his best and hold the nerves. I expect another tough and close match again.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:25 pm

Tenez wrote:Am I the only one having problem with the Barclays atp wtf site? It's ridiculously slow and clumsy.
Is it for their live stream or stg else?

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:59 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:Am I the only one having problem with the Barclays atp wtf site? It's ridiculously slow and clumsy.
Is it for their live stream or stg else?
No it's simply for browsing. I browser simply slows down to a standstill when I log on it. Hate it. when I get out of it, to the bbc site for instance, everythink works fine again.


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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:00 pm

Yes Paul.....a real shame. he had set points in both sets and if I am not mistaking he was the first to have set points in both sets ....yet he lost them and some really carelessly.

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:19 pm

He didn't have set points in the first set just saying.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:24 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:Am I the only one having problem with the Barclays atp wtf site? It's ridiculously slow and clumsy.
Is it for their live stream or stg else?
No it's simply for browsing. I browser simply slows down to a standstill when I log on it. Hate it. when I get out of it, to the bbc site for instance, everythink works fine again.
I gave up on it on day one. Very badly laid out and difficult to navigate. But it worked on the phone in the post office today, so I was able to at least see the score.
Where did you hear Tim's commentary?

I've been watching matches on TennisTv, and they have the standard bunch: Robbie, Lester & co

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Post by BEL19VE on Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:53 pm

Tenez, you were talking about Win/Loss ratio- pretty sure Nadal has the best win/loss ratio out of anyone.

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Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:09 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:Tenez, you were talking about Win/Loss ratio- pretty sure Nadal has the best win/loss ratio out of anyone.
Depends on surface...  I have been told Nadal has only won 2 Indoor hard court events in his entire career.  That's hardly amazing. Taking an overall win-loss is a weasel statistic because there are far more clay and slow court events today than there used to be vs grass and faster courts.

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Post by BEL19VE on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:14 pm

He's never won a tournament on real real fast grass I admit that. 
However as I have argued before, if the surfaces were like that, or were going in that direction; I would back Toni and Rafa to change his game as such they were successful in those conditions. 
At the moment you could argue he doesn't serve and volley much etc. but why should he? It would be lunacy do, he plays the style which suits the current conditions best, the sensible thing to do.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:18 pm

Tenez wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Nadal is perhaps the most difficult to beat.. ever in the history of tennis. He is just too good for Stan..
I think the most difficult player to beat is the one who had the most win/loss ratio in his best years and I think Fed was H&S above everybody else.....bar clay of course.

But I agree he is tough to beat cause it requires sweating a lot.
win/loss ratio is just stats and I try to look beyond that. Any player that can make you hit so many absolutely blinding painting-the-lines shots just to get a single point has got to be the hardest to beat. Nadal is never going to be beaten with even close to an ordinary performance. Every time he loses, it has got to be a stunning performance from the winner throughout the match. A minor blip and Nadal will be back in the game.  

Fed has had those great win/loss ratios. Yes. But he also has lost when the opponent didn't even play that good. Fed on his off day can absolutely self destruct. Nadal will just not do that. 

I just don't see Nadal losing to ordinary performances. That's why he is the toughest to beat.

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Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:19 pm

@Julia Santamaria  If that was true and he could adapt he would have won a lot more indoor hard court and the 5th biggest tournament of the year.  I think it's safe to say he is far too limited for that and that he is succeeding so much largely because of homogenization.  If you take the modern racquets and conditions away from him, you neutralize his main asset.

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Post by BEL19VE on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:30 pm

FedererKing wrote:@Julia Santamaria  If that was true and he could adapt he would have won a lot more indoor hard court and the 5th biggest tournament of the year.  I think it's safe to say he is far too limited for that and that he is succeeding so much largely because of homogenization.  If you take the modern racquets and conditions away from him, you neutralize his main asset.
I don't think it's right for Nadal to change his game now for indoor hard season, when his game is so successful for the majority of the season. 
I agree though that the current conditions suit his style, but that makes my case; why would he change it? 
If the conditions did change across the year (not just he indoor hard season which only has 2 relatively big tournaments), I think we'd see him make serious changes to his game; and I personally think (but can't guarentee) he'd adapt well.

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Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:32 pm

That will be put to the test soon, because decline is around the corner, and if he is unable to adapt his game when he loses a step, he is in deep trouble.

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Post by BEL19VE on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:39 pm

FedererKing wrote:That will be put to the test soon, because decline is around the corner, and if he is unable to adapt his game when he loses a step, he is in deep trouble.
Well if he declines, then he will decline?

Nadal is already 27 years old, and world number 1. Considering he's been pro for so many years he's doing well, no?

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Post by BEL19VE on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:41 pm

However I would disagree that Nadal doing well even after declining can prove he adapts; for me the only way to prove Nadal can adapt is if all the surfaces are radically changed and he is forced to change his game... then we would see if I am right (in saying that Nadal would adapt well).
Certainly I am not claiming to be 100% sure either way.

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Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:47 pm

27 is a decent age, the point I am getting at is Federer won Slams into his 30s because he has an all round game and talent.  If Nadal can't adapt then decline will show it up like a blister on a thumb long before, and he will be far less successful.

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Post by BEL19VE on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:52 pm

I don't see what you're saying.
Even if Nadal wins a slam in his 30s that doesn't necessarily prove he's adapt on fast surfaces, unless the surfaces actually speed up.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:07 pm

Wawrinka post-match today:

“It's nothing personal against Rafa or against Toni. We all know, players and umpire, that Toni is always trying to help Rafa. That's normal. That's part of the game. But when it's too much, it's too much.
Today  I didn't agree with the umpire that he didn't tell him something or he didn't give him second warning just because it was Rafa. We all see. I was there. Before every point, he was trying to coach him. That just what happened. Again, it's nothing against Rafa or Toni. That's in the rules. Normally the umpire should have done something.”

Stan, no need to mince your words gingerly here.
It is personal and first Toni, then his nephew, then the entire ATP should be ashamed of themselves!

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Post by paulcz on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:11 pm

That was a positive Berd's performance. I think everything was well said by Berd alone after the match and I appreciate nice responses from Berd at the Sky Sport studio.

That match has been  one of the best played by Berd. Finally he stopped stubborn bashing the ball and started to play also by his head and showed lighter legs than Feru, who was still not fresh enough. It was played tactically well and as Berd said, the decisive thing is to find the right time when to go for a winner or when it is right time to take a risk. He played patiently and hold the nerves and took his chances well.
His chances against Nadal will depend on possible semi development for Nadal alone, so everything could be possible.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:17 pm

luvsports! wrote:He didn't have set points in the first set just saying.
I think he had....before the TB. Am I wrong?

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Post by paulcz on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:18 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Wawrinka post-match today:

“It's nothing personal against Rafa or against Toni. We all know, players and umpire, that Toni is always trying to help Rafa. That's normal. That's part of the game. But when it's too much, it's too much.
Today  I didn't agree with the umpire that he didn't tell him something or he didn't give him second warning just because it was Rafa. We all see. I was there. Before every point, he was trying to coach him. That just what happened. Again, it's nothing against Rafa or Toni. That's in the rules. Normally the umpire should have done something.”

Stan, no need to mince your words gingerly here.
It is personal and first Toni, then his nephew, then the entire ATP should be ashamed of themselves!
Fortunately I could not have seen it. These ATP officers should be fired right away. They do everything for ruining tennis as a sport.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:20 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:Tenez, you were talking about Win/Loss ratio- pretty sure Nadal has the best win/loss ratio out of anyone.
He has now but Fed had it at his peak....and certainly the best out of his best 5 years. Nadal is young is still young and doesn;t play when injured unlike Federer. But wait when he is 32....his rate will go down badly. Fed has had 4 or 5 years where he was losing less than 9 matches per year...or so.

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Post by BEL19VE on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:45 pm

If you follow their career through the ages, Nadal has a better ratio tan Federer all the way.

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Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:21 pm

Probably right as Feds didnt start his career nearly as well as rafa did, thats what held feds back ratio wise.

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