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Federer splits up from Annacone

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Federer - Federer splits up from Annacone Empty Federer splits up from Annacone

Post by N2D2L Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:29 pm

Interesting move.

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Post by noleisthebest Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:38 pm

Already entioned on Federer thread. No need to create separate threads every 5 minutes.

noleisthebest wrote:Annacone is no longer Federer's coach:

"After a terrific 3 ½ years working together, Paul and I have decided to move on to the next chapter in our professional lives. When we started together we had a vision of a 3 year plan to win another Grand Slam title and get back to the number #1 ranking. Along with many other goals and great memories, these 2 main goals were achieved. After numerous conversations culminating at the end of our most recent training block, we felt like this was the best time and path for both of us. Paul remains a dear friend, and we both look forward to continuing our friendship. I want to thank Paul for his help and the value he has added to me and my team."

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Post by N2D2L Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:50 pm

Thought it deserved a thread of its own.

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Post by truffin1 Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:10 pm

Even though they finished their last training session, Annacones normal schedule with Fed had him going  to Basel and (hopefully) WTF.  Clearly ending it when Fed is struggling and only a few weeks before the end of the season indicates a more sudden decision than something that they had agreed too and planned a while back.  I think the main goals of another major and #1 were reached, but I think there was strain this year as well, and Federer is looking for anything to create a jumpstart.

I'm pretty friendly from Fed's official forum with a group of fans that literly follow him around the globe from tourney to tourney, who have friendships with Luthi, Godsick, on first name basis with Fed himself-   the talk amongst them since the beginning of the Annacone relationship was that Annacone wanted and it was agreed that he have ample time off-- would not be at every tourney, every training  session. He had already quit travelin as a coach and had settled in England with a steady job-- so maybe fulltime travel wasn't where his heart was at..  It worked fine at first as Federer was still at  a high level, winning plenty. Certainly last year was a dream year....... However, this year for various reasons has been a struggle. What struck me as strange and this group of fans spoke of even in the beginning  of the year was that Annacone did not deviate from his vacation time,etc to spend extra time with Fed.. A perfect example-  when Fed went to the two clay tournies after Wimby to try and regain confidence, get some matchplay in, and most importantly try a new racquet, Annacone did not travel with him as it was his regular time off.  IT struck me and others as very strange for a coach, if fully committed, to not drop what he was doing and join his player in such a important phase of trying to right the ship..   Fed's team said things like Paul was in constant contact with Fed, but that's not the same as being there. Perhaps as Fed continued to struggle, a bit of resentment or aggravation creeped in on his part that Annacone wasn't willing to go the extra mile to spend unscheduled time with him.    After all- in the big scheme of things- there is a huge amount of off time during the season for a coach and it's really at most a few year sprint to the end of Fed's career after which Annacone could take as much time as he wanted off..... I know I would have been there every second I could to help my player...

The other thing that struck me as not working was match tactics. When Fed hired Annacone I was excited that he would have a new set of eyes to break down opponent tape and develop game plans for a match- something I thought lacking in the Fed camp. As was well documented, Fed would go into a match and basically wing it often... confident in his amazing talent and vast arsenal that he could switch to whatever tactic needed during the match as as he saw and felt it..  I thought this backfired on him at times.   At first, I did see an improvement in that area, but even last year- I thought Fed was winging it more , and there were also matches where I thought he started out in the wrong game plan... that would be on the coach..

So I think a combo of Fed struggling, Annacone not performing above and beyond his cushy job schedule, and a need for a new voice is what has happened. I hope it works for Fed.

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Post by gallery play Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:30 pm

@Truffin:
That all sounds very much like the Tony Roche split.
Imo the despondent attitude Tony and Paul have shown is their way of saying: "i can't help you no longer". A sign of weakness but i have to add that both coaches did good things too. Where Roche helped Federer to play patiently, Annacone did the opposite. Both stategies did very well for a while.

Question now is: will Federer hire a new coach next to Luthi?

(I see Luthi more as his buddy and assitant  than as a coach)

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:43 pm

Good informative post truffin.

gallery play wrote:
Question now is: will Federer hire a new coach next to Luthi?
I don't see Fed as someone who feels comfortable having a 'coach', he may have someone as an adviser, but coach is something totally different. I'm not sure he is someone who likes taking tips especially at this point of his career.

Even from a coach's point of view, its not going to be any easy for anyone to work with Fed. He can't get Fed to totally change his game now. Its 10 years on since Fed won his first Slam, tennis has totally changed since then.

I'm not sure what else can a coach provide to Fed that he himself can't figure out. Only problem will be execution, and that only Fed can do, not his coach.

So I don't think Fed will hire another coach.

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Post by truffin1 Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:42 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Good informative post truffin.

gallery play wrote:
Question now is: will Federer hire a new coach next to Luthi?
I don't see Fed as someone who feels comfortable having a 'coach', he may have someone as an adviser, but coach is something totally different. I'm not sure he is someone who likes taking tips especially at this point of his career.

Even from a coach's point of view, its not going to be any easy for anyone to work with Fed. He can't get Fed to totally change his game now. Its 10 years on since Fed won his first Slam, tennis has totally changed since then.

I'm not sure what else can a coach provide to Fed that he himself can't figure out. Only problem will be execution, and that only Fed can do, not his coach.

So I don't think Fed will hire another coach.
I disagree a tad-- I think Fed was very willing to follow Annacone's direction.. I have read many a fan account of being at the prematch warmup or practice and Annancone firmly telling Federer to work on certain things, drilling him in that, and Fed going out and doing that in the match. 

What a coach can provide that is needed though is game plans for a match..  I know first hand from the sport of boxing, but really any one on one sport-- the player simply does not have the focus and time, nor the overview detached capability of properly viewing  an opponents tape and formulating a complete game plan..   Can you imagine Fed watching video of Djokovics last 10 matches, disecting it, then going out and working on specific counter tactics?  I think he or anyone needs a coach to do tht properly.  Fed was able to get away with it in his late prime becaue he's Goat talent, but as he's older- he needs the help.

As someone posted above, Luthi is more of a companion, helpful and arranges practice courts, hitting partners, etc-- but not really a coach in the sense that an Annacone would be.

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Post by Tenez Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:14 pm

I am actually of Rotla view here. Likewise I don't think there is a better game analyst than Fed out there. I am not sure he needs a coach. He certainly needs a good doctor!

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Post by N2D2L Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:15 pm

Maybe Uncle Toni can help Federer out Hug

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Post by Tenez Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:15 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:Maybe Uncle Toni can help Federer out Hug
As mentioned t's not Toni he needs but "his doctors team".

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Post by N2D2L Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:30 pm

Surely Federer should go to a back doctor, not a knee doctor??

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Post by truffin1 Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:01 am

Tenez wrote:I am actually of Rotla view here. Likewise I don't think there is a better game analyst than Fed out there. I am not sure he needs a coach. He certainly needs a good doctor!
We'll prob get to see if you guys are right.. It sounds like Fed is going to go at it alone or with Luthi for the near term..  As I think about this - it could be a good confidence move... The mind of an athlete is a funny thing-  sometimes being able to put the blame on something else like a coach and making that switch can almost trick the mind into feeling more confident as you think you got rid of the problem.  IT could be liberating to Fed even if this year wasn't really anything to with Annacone's coaching.

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Post by SayonaRa Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:15 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:Maybe Uncle Toni can help Federer out Hug
You must be kidding. You do realise that others are not as easily impressed with Toni’s quackery. Roger would rather suffer the worse defeats than steal trophies with the help of PEDs and gamesmanship associated with Toni’s tactics. So leave the crooked coach to carry on helping his nephew cheat with their doctor’s team. A shady guy like this is not even fit to tie Roger’s shoe laces.

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Post by N2D2L Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:34 pm

Toni is the greatest coach in the world, Federer is the second greatest player of all time... it would be a great combo.

Depends on whether Toni will accept the demotion though.

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Post by luvsports! Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:43 pm

Behind Laver yes?

So rafa at fourth or fifth?

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Post by N2D2L Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:45 pm

Laver is fifth.

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Post by luvsports! Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:24 pm

In number of slams? I think you may be right.

So if Nadal is 3rd then and feds is second, sampras is first?

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Post by N2D2L Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:31 pm

Nope.
You have got the top 3 correct though, but in the wrong order.

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Post by luvsports! Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:37 pm

Hmm. I just cannot work out why Nadal fans think he is the goat when he is 4 slams behind feds, almost 200 weeks behind feds at no1, -6 wtf's, so far behind on consecutive qf/sf streaks, but ahead on win %, head to head and masters.

Just does not add up!

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Post by noleisthebest Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:44 pm

GOAT formula goes like this:
No of slams+ No of Wimbledon titles+No of years as number one+Number of Year End titles

Nadal doesn't even get a sniff....

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Post by N2D2L Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:52 pm

You yourself have said in the past LS... remember that quote.

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Post by luvsports! Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:00 am

So you ignore my post where he is behind feds stats wise? 
I am interested to see the argument why nadal is the goat, so please lay it out for me. 

Personally I don't think there can be a goat. Just too much conjecture. But if there is one, feds is further ahead than nadal is.
So please explain.

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Post by N2D2L Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:08 am

luvsports! wrote:
So please explain.
Fair enough LS, I've sent you something Winking

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Post by SayonaRa Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:08 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:Toni is the greatest coach in the world, Federer is the second greatest player of all time... it would be a great combo.

Depends on whether Toni will accept the demotion though.
That’s like pretending Lance Armstrong is the greatest racing cyclist in the world. And now Rafa is the second greatest player of all times? Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh 
Love the comedy, but unfortunately, no athlete can be greatest anything AND a confirmed or alleged doper AT THE SAME TIME. Hug

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Post by SayonaRa Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:13 am

luvsports! wrote:Hmm. I just cannot work out why Nadal fans think he is the goat when he is 4 slams behind feds, almost 200 weeks behind feds at no1, -6 wtf's, so far behind on consecutive qf/sf streaks, but ahead on win %, head to head and masters.

Just does not add up!
Of course it doesn't. Why? Love is blind and ignorance is bliss. Who needs states? Laugh

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Post by SayonaRa Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:20 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:
luvsports! wrote:
So please explain.
Fair enough LS, I've sent you something Winking
There you go again playing hide and seek. Why?

Amrit, please post your explanation here why Nadal as the second greatest of all time. Thumbs Up

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Post by Tenez Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:21 am

The thing is talent wise I would not put Nadal in the top 50 of this current ranking so knowing he can get close to being at the top of GOAT list based on legs and lungs alone is very depressing. ....though only his fans will see it this way....but they are many of them.

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Post by SayonaRa Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:54 am

How about the fact that he never won a single WTF? Isn't that considered one of the minimum per-requisite for GOAT status?

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Post by N2D2L Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:08 am

Nope, I'm afraid not.

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Post by Tenez Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:20 am

SR wrote:How about the fact that he never won a single WTF? Isn't that considered one of the minimum per-requisite for GOAT status?
Yes that adds to it. Never being able to win amongst the top players when legs and lungs were a lesser issue.

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Post by N2D2L Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:31 am

Monte carlo.

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Post by SayonaRa Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:37 am

What about Monte Carlo? Could you be more specific? Thanks.

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Post by N2D2L Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:53 am

8.

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Post by luvsports! Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:13 pm

17 Winking

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Post by SayonaRa Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:56 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:8.
So nadal’s 8 MC is all you got? How inappropriate to compare that to Fed’s 7 WTF! But I’ll still give you an A for effort.Hug 
 
First and foremost, MC started out as an ATP 500 event. It only became a Masters event recently in the year ______ (fill in the blank) when Nadal successfully muscled his way to change it into a 1000 clay tournament for his own personal gains. That’s no different from his later self-serving but failed 2-year ranking proposal. Anyway, beginning in 2009, Monte Carlo also became the only ATP Masters tournament not to have a mandatory player commitment. So MC’s relative lack of caliber vs London’s “best of the best” competition is a historical fact not even open to question. I bet Nadal would swap all his MC titles for just 1 WTF if he could.  

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Post by luvsports! Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:59 pm

I think he has won it 6 times btw SR haha.

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Post by N2D2L Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:04 pm

21

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Post by luvsports! Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:51 pm

my age smiley

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Post by N2D2L Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:10 pm

May be, but not the answer I'm looking for. Winking

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Post by noleisthebest Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:31 pm


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Post by SayonaRa Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:33 pm

luvsports! wrote:I think he has won it 6 times btw SR haha.
OOPs, good catch LS, and thanks. Cheers

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Post by truffin1 Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:47 pm

I hate to join late and go off topic again, but just can't resist.. There is no way in hell you can currently call a guy the best player in history who is ranked #7 all time in weeks at #1, who has lost the #1 to an aging Federer and fellow generation Djokovic several times, and who prob will never make it into the Top 5 of weeks at #1.    Nadal is the greatest #2 ranked player of all time- but is incredibly short on resume as a #1 player for where his fans rate him.  He's never spent a full 52 week stretch of a season at #1 in a row!

On top of that- there is no way in hell you can call a guy the best player in history whose vast majority of stats comes from 1 surface and who has had two relativily short periods (part of 2010, part of 2013) in his whole career where he performed as the best player across multi surfaces.

No WTF's is a huge problem for those who want to call him a Goat.   8 Monte Carlos is an absolute joke to include in the argument. It's a non mandatory 1000 which rarely has a full field and a tournament that the governing body wanted to reduce back to a 500 series..   Nadal raised hell and was joined actually by Federer (showing as usual he is about the game and not about himself- compare that to the bizarre rules Nadal has pushed for that mainly benefit himself). They argued because of the tournies long history and historical status is should remain a 1000- but winning it is nowhere near the feat that a WTF is.

You can call him Clay Goat... and that instantly ranks him up there with the all time greats... .but best player of all time across all surfaces is an absolute joke and reserved for fanatics who are blind to the truth.

I'm not even getting into why he's as good as he is from a technological and medical standpoint..  Pretending all things are equal and he did what he did on natural talent-- the stats are not there to be GOAT...    Nothing to do with Federer...just plain fact- Nadal has not dominated across his whole career in a way to be GOAT.

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Post by N2D2L Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:54 pm

Most of Federer's slams and records came in a weaker era, and you know it.

Anyway back on topic (Truffin if you want to discuss this further then by all means, start up a thread- not on here):
Simon Reed- http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/simon-reed/federer-stay-coachless-enjoy-tennis-153241072.html

If Reed says that, then it's time for Federer to get a new coach pronto

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Post by truffin1 Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:22 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:Most of Federer's slams and records came in a weaker era, and you know it.

Anyway back on topic (Truffin if you want to discuss this further then by all means, start up a thread- not on here):
Simon Reed- http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/simon-reed/federer-stay-coachless-enjoy-tennis-153241072.html

If Reed says that, then it's time for Federer to get a new coach pronto
He's won 13 against the very same competition Nadal did... and has had longer time  being out of prime during that period than Nadal had not being in prime.   The 4 before that were not "weak" guys and it's comical to think Federer wouldn't have won those 4 or several at that age and quality of his tennis against ANY competition.      Lets look at some of Sampras' victories, Agassi had a full 20% of his slams against the two most blessed Major draws I've ever seen.  Laver, you name it.. Nadal has won Majors against non all time great guys and has had some incredibly blessed draws in both of his US Open wins and at least one of the French wins he only faced 1 top 20 player.    Yet- I take nothing away from any of these wins. If a player at the pro level can make it through the gauntlet of a Major and win- facing another pro player who also made it through that gauntlet- than no fan of the sport and certainly someone with knowledge of the sport can criticize it as a weak win or less worthy than others.  Some draws are tougher than others, some oppenents are less great than others, but a Major victory is a fantastic achievement..    Besides, its not like Federer didn't back up the quality of his Major play against all eras-- winning against everyone, making it to quarters, semis, final every single major against every type of competition for a record breaking # of years..

Federers records, his time at #1, everything has spanned over 2 maybe 3 eras, and a large part of it was earned during the same competiton that Nadal faced and couldn't make it or hold onto #1 against.. To insult the quality of Fed's carreer proves your bias, fanatiscm and obvious lack of knowledge of the game.

I'll discuss it further where I want too.. I didn't start the nonsense.

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Post by N2D2L Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:49 pm

He's won 13 against the very same competition Nadal did
This itself is a ridiculous line.
During 2003-2007 Federer won 12 of his slams (the majority). In that time Nadal was around but not even near his prime on all surfaces.

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Post by SayonaRa Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:03 pm

truffin1 wrote:I hate to join late and go off topic again, but just can't resist.. There is no way in hell you can currently call a guy the best player in history who is ranked #7 all time in weeks at #1, who has lost the #1 to an aging Federer and fellow generation Djokovic several times, and who prob will never make it into the Top 5 of weeks at #1.    Nadal is the greatest #2 ranked player of all time- but is incredibly short on resume as a #1 player for where his fans rate him.  He's never spent a full 52 week stretch of a season at #1 in a row!

On top of that- there is no way in hell you can call a guy the best player in history whose vast majority of stats comes from 1 surface and who has had two relativily short periods (part of 2010, part of 2013) in his whole career where he performed as the best player across multi surfaces.

No WTF's is a huge problem for those who want to call him a Goat.   8 Monte Carlos is an absolute joke to include in the argument. It's a non mandatory 1000 which rarely has a full field and a tournament that the governing body wanted to reduce back to a 500 series..   Nadal raised hell and was joined actually by Federer (showing as usual he is about the game and not about himself- compare that to the bizarre rules Nadal has pushed for that mainly benefit himself). They argued because of the tournies long history and historical status is should remain a 1000- but winning it is nowhere near the feat that a WTF is.

You can call him Clay Goat... and that instantly ranks him up there with the all time greats... .but best player of all time across all surfaces is an absolute joke and reserved for fanatics who are blind to the truth.

I'm not even getting into why he's as good as he is from a technological and medical standpoint..  Pretending all things are equal and he did what he did on natural talent-- the stats are not there to be GOAT...    Nothing to do with Federer...just plain fact- Nadal has not dominated across his whole career in a way to be GOAT.
FYI, I just went thru the posts above and noticed that nowhere did amrit actually say that nadal is GOAT. She only said “Federer is the second greatest player of all time.” Of course we all know what she meant by that but she dared not state outright that “nadal is GOAT.” Why? Because she knows for a fact that nadal isn’t GOAT, for all the reasons you elaborated here. LS has also pointed out the relevant stats overturning nadal as GOAT. Regardless, that never stops her from trying to force a non-issue solely to put her idol on a pedestal he doesn't belong, as usual.

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Post by SayonaRa Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:11 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:Most of Federer's slams and records came in a weaker era, and you know it.
 Correction. I just noticed I misread your original statement. You didn’t say nadal is the second greatest of all time. You implied that nadal was GOAT. Fact of the matter is, when you’re challenged to back up your boastful insinuation that nadal=GOAT, you’ve remain silent without an explanation.Laugh  I can only call you bluff.
 
Further, like a typical nadal fan, as soon as you lose all nadal-centric arguments, you cry “weak era.” Really? Then what do you think of the current era with nadal regaining #1, when the aging GOAT is struggling as never before, even the younger #3 is mostly out with a shoulder injury and #4 is another over-the-hills Ferrer!! Oh, no, don’t tell me you don’t know that Ferrer never won a GS. Wow, what a strong era this is, Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

I think TRuffin has dismantled the rest of your WE non-sense in the meantime.

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Post by truffin1 Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:20 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
He's won 13 against the very same competition Nadal did
This itself is a ridiculous line.
During 2003-2007 Federer won 12 of his slams (the majority). In that time Nadal was around but not even near his prime on all surfaces.
It was a poorly formed thought but better phrased 100% true and your response again shows your lack of knowelege and bias.. Let me see if I can better phrase it for you..

Since 2005 when Nadal won his 1st Major he has won 13 majors.    Since 2005 the year Nadal was good enough to win a Major, Federer has won 13 Majors (the majority of his Majors) against the exact same competiton Nadal was facing.    The fact that you Nadal fans try to explain that away by talking about Nadal was not hear his prime is an absolute travesty.  Nadal was young when he won his 1st major but ANY player who is capable of winning a major is a fully formed player and there is no excuse that they weren't yet "in their prime"   The fact he wasn't good enough to beat the competition on other surfaces is on his lack of ability and has nothing to do with the competition being weak and Federer's win not meaning as much..  There is no way you can reasonable deny this fact..  Federer won the majority of his majors- 13 Majors against the very same players Nadal has been facing during his 13 Major run........      

 IF Federer was facing weak guys- then what's so great about Nadals clay wins?  A Clay Goat beating a bunch of players who are considered weak and who for the most part had clay as their weakest surface?  Explain that-- if you dare say Federer feasted on a weak all around era than Nadal has feasted on an even weaker clay era.   Federer was better on his weakest surface than any other player Nadal had to face on clay..  Murray is a joke on clay, Djokovic has only come into being a very good to great clay player the past few years...  Who did Nadal beat?   A weak era Federer on his weakest surface...   If you diminish Fed's greatness, than you must diminish Nadals.

I'll state it again-anyone that can criticize the quality of Federer's Major resume, all the wins, all the finals, all the semifinals, all the quarterfinals. knows nothing about tennis... and that seems to be you over and over again.

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Post by luvsports! Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:48 pm

Applause

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Post by N2D2L Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:54 pm

Nadal was young when he won his 1st major but ANY player who is capable of winning a major is a fully formed player and there is no excuse that they weren't yet "in their prime".
What an absolute load of pathetic nonsense.
There is no way Nadal in 2005 was even close to his prime, and it was only when he got older that he started becoming a threat in Grand Slams outside clay.
To say that in 2005 Nadal was a fully formed player or in his prime is absolutely ridiculous- he was only 19 years old!

IF Federer was facing weak guys- then what's so great about Nadals clay wins?
Well for the majority of his French Open victories Nadal had to face the second greatest player of all time- Federer.

Edit: Apolgoies LS Thumbs Up


Last edited by Julia Santamaria on Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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