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Draw Fixing: An Official Study

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Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:59 am

this thread has been going on two forums and is the reason we were evacuated from one of them. I thought it's still relevant, so I'll move it here, as well, just to follow it through and see how the trend goes 8)


The link below shows a talk by an Estionian researcher Katarina
Pijetlovic, giving an exposition on draw fixing at a Corruption in Sport
Symposium in Koln.


Katarina's talk starts at around 13 minutes:

http://www.livestream.com/playthegame_dshs/video?clipId=pla_44809e94-aa04-46c7-9f1e-35b212ba9d46


She examines the pattern of draws at slam tournaments (French Open was
not part of the study) between 2007-2011, drawing the conclusion that
ITF organised draw fixing on behalf of Nike seeing that Djokovic fell in
Federer's half of the draw statistically virtually impossible 12 out of
12 times.

Roland Garros was not taken into the study as it showed a healthy 50/50 pattern.



Interesting facts, e.g. I didn't know that seeds 3 and 4 are drawn by
hand unlike all the other seeds/players that are computer drawn.
Draws are apparently public and televised, but not really accessible anywhere on Youtube.

To me, the most blatant example of draw fixing was the Isner Mahut match
played in the first round last year ON COURT 18, just like at the
record breaking match the year before!!!


Katarina did the research hoping it would interest sports journalists and encourage them to contact the players and ITF.


So far nothing came out of it.

Have a look with an open mind and share your thoughts.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:21 pm

There has been quite a heated debate on this topic and the staggering majority refusing to see the obvious.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:48 am

Yes, bizarrely people refusing to see they are being manipulated. Well not them directly here, but indirectly.

It's like they are doing their best to prove that a chance in 4000 to have the best possible finals (FED/Nadal) in all slams is simply "normal" and can happen. They don;t see that Fed Nadal has been the big cash cow of tennis the last 7 years and that extremely weird occurence facilitating just that cash cow is sheer luck....despite the other ESPN study!

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:52 am

Yes, that's seems to be the cornerstone on which many have stumbled Winking

SB, HB , LF , Barry etc all sit on the fence safely knowing the draws are rigged.

Sticking your head in the sand has always been around and I have generally found it both amusing and unfathomable.

I just feel so sorry for Nole as he has had to suffer because of it most Sad

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:23 pm

SB, HB , LF , Barry etc all sit on the fence safely knowing the draws are rigged

------------------------

I have read SB kind of admitting to the draw being rigged and then concluding by making sure he woudl not clearly pronounce his views.

HB is extremely confusing on the matter too.



Barry honestly ackowledge that he was not too savvy in stats and did not want to ponounce either way.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:32 pm

The thing that baffles me in all this is why it seems to be so hard admitting the obvious.

But then again, maybe it doesn't. Unbelief is an amazing thing.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:51 pm

I'd like to see them all to bet and put their house on Murray being in Fed's half at the USO.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by mikeyM1000 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:00 pm

I've seen Djoko give a nod and a wink to some reporters when asked about it - I reckon he knows about it but is too scared to speak up. He should have the balls to speak up for the integrity of the sport.
Only himself to blame otherwise.
Fed and Rafa probably know about it too, they're not daft, but it helps them out, so they just keep quiet and are happy for the corruption to continue.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:05 pm

mikeyM1000 wrote:I've seen Djoko give a nod and a wink to some reporters when asked about it - I reckon he knows about it but is too scared to speak up. He should have the balls to speak up for the integrity of the sport.
Only himself to blame otherwise.
Fed and Rafa probably know about it too, they're not daft, but it helps them out, so they just keep quiet and are happy for the corruption to continue.

Hi and welcome Mikey smiley
I didn't realise he was asked about it, please share Winking!

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by mikeyM1000 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:10 pm

he wasn't asked about it exactly, it was like "You're in Fed's half yet again, what do you think?" and he sort of shrugged and said "What can you do?". It was like "Yeah, they've stitched me up again, but I can't say anything"
That was a while back and it;s happend so much since then, he should just call 'em out on it. Maybe he keeps quiet in exchange for other things.

I just figure if it's as obvious as it is, how can they not all know about it?

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:18 pm

mikeyM1000 wrote:he wasn't asked about it exactly, it was like "You're in Fed's half yet again, what do you think?" and he sort of shrugged and said "What can you do?". It was like "Yeah, they've stitched me up again, but I can't say anything"
That was a while back and it;s happend so much since then, he should just call 'em out on it. Maybe he keeps quiet in exchange for other things.

I just figure if it's as obvious as it is, how can they not all know about it?

Wow, you're a breath of fresh air Mikey, I'm blown away by some actual creative thinking on the subject!!!!
I'm soused to having to defend and persuade he,he...

Interesting point about keeping quiet...Assuming you are not humouring me here, what sort of things are we talkin' Winking

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by mikeyM1000 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:28 pm

Well, if you're getting shafted by the Man (haha) it's be easy for him to point a few journos to the right places. A journo would give his right arm to break a story like that.
I still reckon Djoko juiced himself up a bit to keep up with Nadal, and maybe he swapped his silence for not having any sort of silent ban.
That;s just my theory, could be wrong. But why keep quiet about the draw-rigging when it's costing you? Everyone loves a whistle-blower.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:35 pm

mikeyM1000 wrote:Well, if you're getting shafted by the Man (haha) it's be easy for him to point a few journos to the right places. A journo would give his right arm to break a story like that.
I still reckon Djoko juiced himself up a bit to keep up with Nadal, and maybe he swapped his silence for not having any sort of silent ban.
That;s just my theory, could be wrong. But why keep quiet about the draw-rigging when it's costing you? Everyone loves a whistle-blower.

mmmm....not what I was hoping to hear at all :shock: I thought maybe getting the licence for Serbia Open was the price he had to pay 8)

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by mikeyM1000 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:42 pm

Serbian Open - hadn't thought of that one.
Hey, if you want to be charitible, they threatened to take the Serbian Open away unless he kept quiet. Then he's not a drug cheat, he's the hero of a nation. I reckon you'll prefer that version smiley

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:24 pm

His uncle, Serbia Open director did resign in May this year and there were talks of selling the licence.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:42 pm

mikeyM1000 wrote:Well, if you're getting shafted by the Man (haha) it's be easy for him to point a few journos to the right places. A journo would give his right arm to break a story like that.

A journo might be craving for a story like that but no paper will want to publish that journo. Djoko woudl never say things like that cause he woudl be told off by the ATP. They have strict rules to abide for and it is difficult for them to criticise the system cause it's the system which pays them at the end of the day.



It's only when they leave they retire that we can hear the under-cover stories.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by mikeyM1000 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:44 pm

We can never know who's screwing who. We have about 3 peices of a hundred piece jigsaw.

But the players must know about the draw-rigging - if we can work it out, they must have. The player that gains - Federer- keeps quiet. The player that loses - Djoko- keeps quiet. They all have their reasons.
It's not even too much of a leap to say Fed's part of it, if you wanted to - he got the pull and he's got the tournament directors all his up his back-side for the money he brings in.
Let;s not pretend that officials are all corrupt but the top players are the honesty of mankind.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:50 pm

I think the player who really gained was Nadal. Federer would have love to see a bit more of Nadal v Djoko on the other semi. That may have given him a much better chance to beat Djoko in final or even a tired Nadal. And we know why they are all keeping quiet about it...cause like in doping there is no 100% proof. 1/4000 chance is still a chance that can occur.

I agree about your first sentence....but those forums are good to at least speculate....especially under such weird events.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by mikeyM1000 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:49 pm

I have a hard time believing anyone would want to help Rafa with a nice draw, but money talks

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:05 pm

Well - Very easy. Remember the draw rigging woudl start from 2008 to 2011. That's 4 years on all slams bar the FO (cause the FO Nadal clearly did not need help there).



In 2007 Nadal has only won FOs and others slams organisers want to have Nadal play finals v Fed like he does in FOs and Wimbies. That are the matches everybody wants to see then, not the Federer v Gonzales, or even Federer v Djokovic. However we already know that Djoko is Nadal's worst opponent. Nadal even says it himself. Djoko however back then did not cause Federer trouble. This is why you have from 2008 to 2011 (4 years in a row) Djoko on Federer's side and not once on Nadal side on all 3 slams (AO, USO, Wimby). That's 12 times in a row!!! a chance in 4096!!!

If you acknowledge that they turn a blind eye on Nadal's extra time taking to facilitate his physical game and even reduced doping tests during that period you might change your mind on who they were trying to help.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by mikeyM1000 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:46 pm

Oh yeah, not saying they weren't helping him, but I bet they only did it line their own pockets, not because they liked him.
With Fed, they were probably, Yes Roger, No Roger, here's 10000 pounds, can I suck your d1ck Roger 'cos they know he's the main man.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:26 pm

mikeyM1000 wrote:Oh yeah, not saying they weren't helping him, but I bet they only did it line their own pockets, not because they liked him.
With Fed, they were probably, Yes Roger, No Roger, here's 10000 pounds, can I suck your d1ck Roger 'cos they know he's the main man.

Mikey,
cough, cough, some of us are of the fairer sex here :oops:

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Tenez on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:50 pm

Yes no vulgarity please.

I think tournament organisers care as much as their crowd. Nadal and Federer were probably splitting the crowd 50/50. This is why they wanted them both in the final. One was backed up by the long time tennis fans and the other by the non tennis fans who liked his energy and look. Nadal was bringing many extra fans that no other player woudl have. In that respect they wanted Nadal in the final.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:19 pm

US Open draw is out later this evening.

I dread to actually think about it.

Mentally, I am prepared for Murray in Novak's half with lots of players who have a very one-sided H2H with Federer in his half of the draw.

Can't wait

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by HM Murdoch on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:40 pm

I'm pretty much assuming Fed gets Ferrer and Nole gets Andy.

There have been 5 events this year that Nole has played in where another member of the top 4 was missing - Dubai, Monte Carlo, Madrid, Olympics, Cincy.

In every one of them, Nole was paired with the other guy in the top 4.

Would it be a surprise if it become 6 out 6 at USO?

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:43 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:I'm pretty much assuming Fed gets Ferrer and Nole gets Andy.

There have been 5 events this year that Nole has played in where another member of the top 4 was missing - Dubai, Monte Carlo, Madrid, Olympics, Cincy.

In every one of them, Nole was paired with the other guy in the top 4.

Would it be a surprise if it become 6 out 6 at USO?

No, but I look forward to all the "balanced" people giving out charts and theories explaining how draws are perfectly random

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Guest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:46 pm

Wilander predicts Murray's first slam at USO. Whoever gets Murray, will lose the Sf smiley

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Guest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:48 pm

INtersting preposition- If nole gets Andy then draws are fixed, if Fed gets Andy then draws are not fixed. There is a fifty percent of chance for both the possibilities. Let's see what results we will get for the draw fixing argument.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by laverfan on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:13 pm

Federer gets Murray. Laugh

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:19 pm

laverfan wrote:Federer gets Murray.

All this was worth it

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by laverfan on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:24 pm

And every chip drawn from the US Open Trophy was shown to the audience and streamed world-wide.

Should this thread be defunct now? Laugh

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:27 pm

laverfan wrote:And every chip drawn from the US Open Trophy was shown to the audience and streamed world-wide.

Should this thread be defunct now?

I know you'd love it to happen, but , no...you cannot erase the last 5 years of fixed draws. It has now become very clear it was all done for the benefit of Nadal as was always suspected.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Guest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:28 pm

So LF was right. Draws are not fixed.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Guest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:29 pm

Andy will still win it. Djoko must make the final with no Andy in the way.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by laverfan on Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:29 pm

noleisthebest wrote:

I know you'd love it to happen, but , no...you cannot erase the last 5 years of fixed draws. It has now become very clear it was all done for the benefit of Nadal as was always suspected.

I have done enough research (available on 606v2 using very unreliable Internet website called www.atpworldtour.com) and shown that there is no draw fixing. It is a myth. Winking

You can have a look on v2, if you feel so inclined.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:32 pm

It's not a myth and you know it. Maybe you are even paid to know it.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Guest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:46 pm

Delusional. Now I know why BB did not leave v2

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by laverfan on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:18 pm

noleisthebest wrote:It's not a myth and you know it. Maybe you are even paid to know it.

... and you are claiming it based on a 'flawed' study by a lawyer? Whistle Ask HM to send you the 606v2 links (They are from an unreliable Internet forum, though).

PS: If I am being paid, perhaps SB can be the neutral arbitrator. Winking

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:41 pm

This is not a trial case, LF.....you watch too much TV across the pond...

As for v2, it was I who started the debate originally and then consequently a few hybrid ones got revived after our i forced exile. I know what you and SB think, and I hope you know what I think.

I haven't changed my mind in the least, and why would I.

I will say I'm quite happy with Nole's draw. Maybe all this huffing and puffing wasn't in vain after all !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFHXhwbQRBc

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by laverfan on Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:14 pm

noleisthebest wrote:This is not a trial case, LF.....you watch too much TV across the pond...

If you have convinced yourself that there is draw fixing, and are attached to such an idea, you are more than welcome to such a notion. I do not watch TV except for publicly available Tennis. Winking

noleisthebest wrote:As for v2, it was I who started the debate originally and then consequently a few hybrid ones got revived after our i forced exile. I know what you and SB think, and I hope you know what I think.

Starting a debate is fine, it does not change my conclusions. My analysis has convinced me there is no draw fixing. Winking

noleisthebest wrote:I haven't changed my mind in the least, and why would I. I will say I'm quite happy with Nole's draw. Maybe all this huffing and puffing wasn't in vain after all ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFHXhwbQRBc

The question which will be answered in two weeks is whether Djokovic can win a big one with such a draw. Winking

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:08 am

laverfan wrote:

The question which will be answered in two weeks is whether Djokovic can win a big one with such a draw.

There will be no excuse

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by summerblues on Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 am

noleisthebest wrote:There will be no excuse

smiley You kept complaining about the draws but I do not remember you using it as an excuse for his losses. You strike me as very fair and evenhanded when dealing with his losses (and I do not mean it as on offense Winking). Except that you erroneously keep thinking that nitb Winking (you should change your name to nwtb).

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by HM Murdoch on Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:21 am

I can't say I ever felt certain about draw rigging but I was open to the idea it could happen. As a general principle, when money is involved and there is no oversight or scrutiny, I assume a level of dishonesty!

This draw makes the rigging idea less convincing to me. I would consider this the most commercial slam but the draw has given the most commercially attractive player the markedly harder semi final.

And it's a lovely draw for Novak! Even the tricky QF opponent of DelPo appears to be carrying an injury. As NITB says, there can be no excuses this year!

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by paulcz on Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:06 am

noleisthebest wrote:
laverfan wrote:And every chip drawn from the US Open Trophy was shown to the audience and streamed world-wide.

Should this thread be defunct now?

I know you'd love it to happen, but , no...you cannot erase the last 5 years of fixed draws. It has now become very clear it was all done for the benefit of Nadal as was always suspected.

Here are only two possible explanations why some are not able to admit that the draws have been rigged. First ones are really naive people like hippies who think that the wolrd is a paradise on Earth and second one who just root the ones who get a profit from the rigging. Perhaps the third one group seems to be here and that ones just want to blabber and philozophize nothing against them but their reasoning often quite falls behind.

Let us appreciate to speak openly about such evidently bizarre draws which we have had in last GSs, thanks Nitb.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by laverfan on Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:48 pm

paulcz wrote:Let us appreciate to speak openly about such evidently bizarre draws which we have had in last GSs, thanks Nitb.

Where is the evidence? In a flawed study by a lawyer? Laugh Look at the link that I posted on 606v2 (untrusted and unreliable Internet resource)...

http://www.606v2.com/t33610-names-numbers-and-nole#1468074

You are always welcome to continue to believe what you want to.

Hippies speak openly about drugs and sex. Winking

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by Tenez on Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:08 pm

laverfan wrote:
paulcz wrote:Let us appreciate to speak openly about such evidently bizarre draws which we have had in last GSs, thanks Nitb.

Where is the evidence? In a flawed study by a lawyer? Look at the link that I posted on 606v2 (untrusted and unreliable Internet resource)...

http://www.606v2.com/t33610-names-numbers-and-nole#1468074

You are always welcome to continue to believe what you want to.

Hippies speak openly about drugs and sex.

Do you realise you have been lessoned on the subject by your friend SB and many others, but you keep repeating the same non-sense? None of us have 100% proof that draws are rigged. THat is your only leg you can stand on....but all posters with reasonable stat knowledge, or simply common sense, can see that draws have been rigged "beyond reasonable doubt"...certainly enough to raise a few eyebrows. The fact you don't even rise eyebrows just shows you lack common sense I am afraid. Just like having Isner and Mahut play in teh first round of the Wimby 2011 after their 2010 epic. It's only a 1/96 chance but it's a very one. Sure you can consider many other combination of players and one will appear weird...however some combination like Isner Mahut carry a lot more meaning, more than Gasquet v Granollers...cause of the 2010 epic. It's only a chance in 96, can happen certainly but again enough to raise eyebrows again.

What I find comical with your reasoning is that you cannot even see the data are particularly weird in teh first place...such a poor sense of observation.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by mikeyM1000 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:11 pm

paulcz wrote:First ones are really naive people like hippies who think that the wolrd is a paradise on Earth...

True - bloody hippies. Nothing a meeting with the business end of an AK47 can't cure! Or an honest meeting with a corrupt ATP official who could open their eyes to the real world.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by laverfan on Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:24 pm

Tenez wrote:Do you realise you have been lessoned on the subject by your friend SB and many others, but you keep repeating the same non-sense?

I had much rather have a discussion with SB than you on this subject. At least he is willing to see reason, unlike your monomania. Winking

Tenez wrote:None of us have 100% proof that draws are rigged.

Then stop repeating this 'draw rigging' myth, like the doping myths. Laugh

Tenez wrote:THat is your only leg you can stand on....but all posters with reasonable stat knowledge, or simply common sense, can see that draws have been rigged "beyond reasonable doubt"...certainly enough to raise a few eyebrows.

Like 'Tom___" who has done a 2-sigma and 5-sigma analysis of draws and shown that they are not rigged. Laugh

Tenez wrote:The fact you don't even rise eyebrows just shows you lack common sense I am afraid. Just like having Isner and Mahut play in teh first round of the Wimby 2011 after their 2010 epic. It's only a 1/96 chance but it's a very one. Sure you can consider many other combination of players and one will appear weird...however some combination like Isner Mahut carry a lot more meaning, more than Gasquet v Granollers...cause of the 2010 epic. It's only a chance in 96, can happen certainly but again enough to raise eyebrows again.

I ask questions and do my own research to answer questions (like the 606v2 link on this thread), unlike the inability to even acknowledge others research. Laugh

Tenez wrote:What I find comical with your reasoning is that you cannot even see the data are particularly weird in teh first place...such a poor sense of observation.

If it is so comical you should not be responding to my posts. You have a choice. Thumbs Up

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:26 pm

summerblues wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:There will be no excuse

You kept complaining about the draws but I do not remember you using it as an excuse for his losses. You strike me as very fair and evenhanded when dealing with his losses (and I do not mean it as on offense ). Except that you erroneously keep thinking that nitb (you should change your name to nwtb).

That's true. Still, when I used to see a tough draw for Nole, which was almost always the case in the last 5 years, I dreaded those semi-finals against Nadal in RG or Fed in USO.
I didn't find excuses for Nole's losses because losses are a very natural and normal occurence in life. I suppose unlike a lot of people, I don't buy the opinion that losses are failures.
In fact, winning is a lot more "unnatural" and hence difficult, I suppose that's why we watch sports and follow players.

What I did not like was how unnecessarily difficult path was made for Nole to achieve those wins. IN sport at least, we expect things to be "fair" and just, because we know in real life they are rarely so.

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

Post by paulcz on Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:48 pm

laverfan wrote:
paulcz wrote:Let us appreciate to speak openly about such evidently bizarre draws which we have had in last GSs, thanks Nitb.

Where is the evidence? In a flawed study by a lawyer? Look at the link that I posted on 606v2 (untrusted and unreliable Internet resource)...

http://www.606v2.com/t33610-names-numbers-and-nole#1468074

You are always welcome to continue to believe what you want to.

Hippies speak openly about drugs and sex.

LF, you show a such a passion to defence objectivity of draws that I started to ask myself what can be behind it. I looked at V2 topic as you referred and only impression that I got is that moderators in V2 are fighters against all whose posts refer on some weirdness in tennis. Btw. that was also partial the reason I do not want to post anything there.

If you are so sure that everything is so fair, you must have something that proves that. Did you see the videos how the drawing of 3rd and 4th seeded players have been done or were you there? That would be the proof. I´d rather see the vids

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Re: Draw Fixing: An Official Study

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