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ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:24 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:Winner Count in first set, this one is for Tenez:

Nadal 18-9 Berdych
9/10 Nadal's winners are "a blindfolded player couldn't miss" sitters.

No they're not, watch the match.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by ... on Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:26 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:Winner Count in first set, this one is for Tenez:

Nadal 18-9 Berdych
9/10 Nadal's winners are "a blindfolded player couldn't miss" sitters.

No they're not, watch the match.
I generally don't comment on things I haven't seen, Amri. Maybe you need to take the blinkers off.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:30 pm

OH DID YOU SEEEE THAT FOREHAND DTL!!!!!!


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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:31 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:Winner Count in first set, this one is for Tenez:

Nadal 18-9 Berdych
9/10 Nadal's winners are "a blindfolded player couldn't miss" sitters.

No they're not, watch the match.
I generally don't comment on things I haven't seen, Amri. Maybe you need to take the blinkers off.
It's ludicrous, there's no way 90% of Nadal's winners are ones which blindfolded players couldn't miss, that's just insulting.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:53 pm

Nadal has made 4 more unforced errors than Berdych so far, intriguing.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by Tenez on Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:22 pm

Berdych serve has no accuracy. Neither has Nadal's btw.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:37 pm

Tenez wrote:Berdych serve has no accuracy. Neither has Nadal's btw.
Well they hit it in the service box most of the time.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by ... on Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:37 pm

So it's the Nadal-Isner final tomorrow...cos-mic! Wah 

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:37 pm

Nadal number 2 if he beats Isner tomorrow.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by Tenez on Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:39 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:Berdych serve has no accuracy. Neither has Nadal's btw.
Well they hit it in the service box most of the time.
That's about right. However a serve should aim for the lines!

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:40 pm

Tenez wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:Berdych serve has no accuracy. Neither has Nadal's btw.
Well they hit it in the service box most of the time.
That's about right. However a serve should aim for the lines!
Not necessarily. Nadal's on the body serve is quite effective.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by ... on Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:53 pm

I'll never forget watching Mannarino play and especially serve at Wimbledon this year. He was hitting the ball so sweetly with great placement, but you could barely hear anything, it was phenomenal!
I. Also like Dolgo's serve a lot, but his is brilliant in a completely different way as he manages to create amazing pace, I have no idea how!

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:14 am

noleisthebest wrote:I'll never forget watching Mannarino play and especially serve at Wimbledon this year. He was hitting the ball so sweetly with great placement, but you could barely hear anything, it was phenomenal!
I. Also like Dolgo's serve a lot, but his is brilliant in a completely different way as he manages to create amazing pace, I have no idea how!
True...and true.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by ... on Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:58 am

Come on Isner!!! diva

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by ... on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:08 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:Nadal number 2 if he beats Isner tomorrow.
I suppose that would make the draw a bit more balanced for USO, Berdych in top 5 for the first time, too.

Tough to predict top 10 at the end of 2013, it has been a strange year!

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:40 am

Nadal is going to be tough to stop in bo5!

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by ... on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:50 am

Tenez wrote:Nadal is going to be tough to stop in bo5!
Yes, after seeing his supreme fitness in the last two weeks, it's hard to imagine another early exit a'la Wimbledon at USO, or any limping either.....

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:37 pm

Tenez wrote:Nadal is going to be tough to stop in bo5!
Maybe, but his prospects for USO don't look that promising.

Firstly:
- His knee injury may reoccur again- forcing him out.
Secondly:
-He will be fatigued by the final week of USO if he gets there- having played 4 weeks of tennis out of 5 weeks.
Thirdly:
-Djokovic and Murray have more recent experience in BO5 on hard courts recently, the last time Nadal played BO5 on hard courts was Australian Open 2012.

So overall you'd have to say the odds are against him, and certainly you can't put him as favourite.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:37 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:Nadal is going to be tough to stop in bo5!
Maybe, but his prospects for USO don't look that promising.

Firstly:
- His knee injury may reoccur again- forcing him out.
Secondly:
-He will be fatigued by the final week of USO if he gets there- having played 4 weeks of tennis out of 5 weeks.
Thirdly:
-Djokovic and Murray have more recent experience in BO5 on hard courts recently, the last time Nadal played BO5 on hard courts was Australian Open 2012.

So overall you'd have to say the odds are against him, and certainly you can't put him as favourite.
Nadal and his fans speak the same tone.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:44 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:Maybe, but his prospects for USO don't look that promising.

Firstly:
- His knee injury may reoccur again- forcing him out.
Tenez wrote:Laugh 

Secondly:
-He will be fatigued by the final week of USO if he gets there- having played 4 weeks of tennis out of 5 weeks.
Tenez wrote:
Laugh Laugh 

Thirdly:
-Djokovic and Murray have more recent experience in BO5 on hard courts recently, the last time Nadal played BO5 on hard courts was Australian Open 2012.
Tenez wrote:
Nice jinx again!



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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:11 pm

Will try to watch today's final. Nadal looks likely to win, but I don't know  what will Isner bring to this match along with the crowd.

Nadal will move to #2 if he wins. And record equaling 5 TMS in a year with 2 still to go.

A decent run at USopen and he is finishing #1 by YE.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by truffin1 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:36 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:Nadal is going to be tough to stop in bo5!
Maybe, but his prospects for USO don't look that promising.

Firstly:
- His knee injury may reoccur again- forcing him out.
Secondly:
-He will be fatigued by the final week of USO if he gets there- having played 4 weeks of tennis out of 5 weeks.
Thirdly:
-Djokovic and Murray have more recent experience in BO5 on hard courts recently, the last time Nadal played BO5 on hard courts was Australian Open 2012.

So overall you'd have to say the odds are against him, and certainly you can't put him as favourite.
knee injury! u nadal fanatics never cease to amaze me.  If his knees were still a problem he wouldn't be playing and dominating two back to back hard court Masters.  As good as he looks and the go to excuse is already in play.. smh.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by ... on Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:23 pm

I suppose Nadal's main motivation for tonight's win is that number 2 ranking which guarantees him avoiding Novak until the final.
Despite recent lack of success, I reckon Nole is still the strongest candidate to beat Nadal in USO.

I am assuming that a loss in the SF would not be enough for Nadal's number 1 ranking, as he definitely has a lot less chance to win much during indoor hard European/Asian swing in autumn.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:38 pm

You remember this discussion we had about tall people having slower reaction times. It's so obvious again with Isner. They simply haven't got quick hands. It's not the mouvement only it's just their slow nerves.

Look how far Isner stands when rallying?

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by ... on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:38 pm

I got the time for the match wrong by an hour again!
Still. The right time to tune in, 1st set TB, COME ON IZZY!!! diva 

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by ... on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:42 pm

Sad

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by ... on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:46 pm

Tenez wrote:You remember this discussion we had about tall people having slower reaction times. It's so obvious again with Isner. They simply haven't got quick hands. It's not the mouvement only it's just their slow nerves.

Look how far Isner stands when rallying?
Well, he's still got all that serving height to compensate for the length of nerves reflexes have to travel...and that last approach shot after which he netted the volley was pretty safe, too.
Plus, he is not the most agile of tall players like Delpo for example.
As soon as he stopped getting first serves in, it was end of the story in the tie-break, the other kind of nerves got to him, unfortunately... Winking

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:40 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:You remember this discussion we had about tall people having slower reaction times. It's so obvious again with Isner. They simply haven't got quick hands. It's not the mouvement only it's just their slow nerves.

Look how far Isner stands when rallying?
Well, he's still got all that serving height to compensate for the length of nerves reflexes have to travel...and that last approach shot after which he netted the volley was pretty safe, too.
Plus, he is not the most agile of tall players like Delpo for example.
As soon as he stopped getting first serves in, it was end of the story in the tie-break, the other kind of nerves got to him, unfortunately... Winking
Yes but wasn't enough! It;s no surprise he and Mahut got such a long ace fest at Wimby as neither of them had quick enough reflexes to return those serves.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:43 pm

Looks like Djoko has to win it all to prevent Nadal regaining that number 1 spot.

Can youngsters wake up and stop that supremacy of lung busters? I feel like training hard and stop them myself! Angry

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by paulcz on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:05 pm

Tenez wrote:Looks like Djoko has to win it all to prevent Nadal regaining that number 1 spot.

Can youngsters wake up and stop that supremacy of lung busters? I feel like training hard and stop them myself! Angry
The chance that Nole stays no. 1 at YE is close to 0. If Nadal continues to play with such a brutal force and great  confidence he is able to win US and WTF successively. 

As I said many times this year there is no youngster who can consistently face TOP3 this year and none seems to be taking off.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by paulcz on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:07 pm

Tenez wrote:You remember this discussion we had about tall people having slower reaction times. It's so obvious again with Isner. They simply haven't got quick hands. It's not the mouvement only it's just their slow nerves.

Look how far Isner stands when rallying?
Do you have any more informations how much slow nerves affect movement? Have you read a study on this?

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by summerblues on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:13 pm

Well, this tournament definitely did not go to the plan as far as Nole's #1 ranking is concerned.  This was one of the tournaments where Nole was supposed to be gaining ground on Rafa.  Here is an update on my data from a week ago:

Rafa is now 2,240 points ahead in the race.  Their points history for the portion of the season from USO until the end of the year is here:

---Year------Nadal------Djokovic---
2012
0
4,210
2011
1,790
2,560
2010
3,680
2,850
2009
1,860
3,480
2008
1,600
2,740
So, Rafa would on average win maybe 1800 points (but note that he went as high as 3680 in 2010).  Nole would on average expect to make maybe around 3000 points, i.e., nowhere near enough to keep ahead of Rafa.

Nole did best in this part of the year last year, when he made 4210 points.  If Rafa keeps up his form, even that is very unlikely to be enough.

The bigger question now seems to be how long can Nole hold Rafa off.  It is still a long shot, but Rafa could conceivably reclaim #1 spot at the USO.  Unless Nole bombs there, Rafa would have to win.  But if Rafa does win, Nole would have to make the final to hold onto the #1 spot.

All in all, I think Nole is still likely to come out of the USO as #1, but he is unlikely to keep that spot at the YE.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by paulcz on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:20 pm

I need to congratulate to John Isner for his very good performance in Cincinnati.Thumbs Up
He looks to be a nice guy, just like non-typical american. Very humble conduct, cool head and great focus. That is amazing how this guy runs on the court. If he could improve BH a bit, then he can beat everybody on his day.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:40 pm

truffin1 wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:Nadal is going to be tough to stop in bo5!
Maybe, but his prospects for USO don't look that promising.

Firstly:
- His knee injury may reoccur again- forcing him out.
Secondly:
-He will be fatigued by the final week of USO if he gets there- having played 4 weeks of tennis out of 5 weeks.
Thirdly:
-Djokovic and Murray have more recent experience in BO5 on hard courts recently, the last time Nadal played BO5 on hard courts was Australian Open 2012.

So overall you'd have to say the odds are against him, and certainly you can't put him as favourite.
knee injury! u nadal fanatics never cease to amaze me.  If his knees were still a problem he wouldn't be playing and dominating two back to back hard court Masters.  As good as he looks and the go to excuse is already in play.. smh.
Oh you can ....syh as much as you like, I wasn't saying his knee injury is currently affecting him- I was saying it could reoccur and bring him out.
As for labelling me a 'Nadal fanatic'- I can call you many names and labels too, and not only thatl I can safely say that despite being a Nadal fan I am far more objective than you or Tenez can even dream, and not only that I respect Nadal's rivals I don't just slate them.


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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:41 pm

So proud of Nadal today, incredible stuff winning his first Cincinnati title smiley

I am afraid it's very likely that these efforts of two weeks will mean he's burnt out for the USO, but nonetheless a fantastic hard court North American summer anyway.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by summerblues on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:49 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:I am afraid it's very likely that these efforts of two weeks will mean he's burnt out for the USO
JS, your jinxing is pretty tired and worn out by now, can you not give it a rest?

PS. Congrats to you man; so far so good for him.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:04 pm

What happened in 2008?

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:04 pm

And we both put him in as 3rd favourite so...

smiley

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:18 pm

paulcz wrote:
Tenez wrote:You remember this discussion we had about tall people having slower reaction times. It's so obvious again with Isner. They simply haven't got quick hands. It's not the mouvement only it's just their slow nerves.

Look how far Isner stands when rallying?
Do you have any more informations how much slow nerves affect movement? Have you read a study on this?
not really. The speed of a nerve should in theory be teh same and the longer travel from head to members (and forth) should be negligeable....but it's clearly not. We can see how shorter people have so much quicker hands than taller ones. Compare Leander Paes with Isner....difference is huge. Or take the Rochus, Santoro....etc...they simply have quick hands.

I'll dig this up when I have time.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:22 pm

summerblues wrote:
The bigger question now seems to be how long can Nole hold Rafa off.  It is still a long shot, but Rafa could conceivably reclaim #1 spot at the USO.  Unless Nole bombs there, Rafa would have to win.  But if Rafa does win, Nole would have to make the final to hold onto the #1 spot.

All in all, I think Nole is still likely to come out of the USO as #1, but he is unlikely to keep that spot at the YE.
I'd say the question is Is Rafa going to cycle down like he did for the last 8 years after the USO...or is he going to push the accelerator down till the YE....unlike th eprevious years.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by summerblues on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:29 pm

Tenez wrote:I'd say the question is Is Rafa going to cycle down like he did for the last 8 years after the USO...or is he going to push the accelerator down till the YE....unlike th eprevious years.
Two points:

First, even if Rafa does exactly as well as he always does this part of the season, he is likely to be #1 at YE.

Second, similar to JS's jinxing, this also gets tedious and boring after a while (irrespective of whether or not it is factually true).

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by paulcz on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:42 pm

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:
Tenez wrote:You remember this discussion we had about tall people having slower reaction times. It's so obvious again with Isner. They simply haven't got quick hands. It's not the mouvement only it's just their slow nerves.

Look how far Isner stands when rallying?
Do you have any more informations how much slow nerves affect movement? Have you read a study on this?
not really. The speed of a nerve should in theory be teh same and the longer travel from head to members (and forth) should be negligeable....but it's clearly not. We can see how shorter people have so much quicker hands than taller ones. Compare Leander Paes with Isner....difference is huge. Or take the Rochus, Santoro....etc...they simply have quick hands.

I'll dig this up when I have time.
That is body physiology, that says shorter people have faster reactions due to shorter extremities, but slow nerves.That made us laugh this evening.  If you find something about slow nerves, do not hesitate to provide us with it Laugh

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:28 pm

summerblues wrote:
Tenez wrote:I'd say the question is Is Rafa going to cycle down like he did for the last 8 years after the USO...or is he going to push the accelerator down till the YE....unlike th eprevious years.
Two points:

First, even if Rafa does exactly as well as he always does this part of the season, he is likely to be #1 at YE.

Second, similar to JS's jinxing, this also gets tedious and boring after a while (irrespective of whether or not it is factually true).
I am not sure why? It was a sincere question. In other words....(if you don;t like the term "cycle down"), Is Nadal going to lose to the Garcia Lopez et Granollers after the USO as he usually does ot is he going to keep it up?

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by ... on Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:40 pm

summerblues wrote:Well, this tournament definitely did not go to the plan as far as Nole's #1 ranking is concerned.  This was one of the tournaments where Nole was supposed to be gaining ground on Rafa.  Here is an update on my data from a week ago:

Rafa is now 2,240 points ahead in the race.  Their points history for the portion of the season from USO until the end of the year is here:

---Year------Nadal------Djokovic---
2012
0
4,210
2011
1,790
2,560
2010
3,680
2,850
2009
1,860
3,480
2008
1,600
2,740
So, Rafa would on average win maybe 1800 points (but note that he went as high as 3680 in 2010).  Nole would on average expect to make maybe around 3000 points, i.e., nowhere near enough to keep ahead of Rafa.

Nole did best in this part of the year last year, when he made 4210 points.  If Rafa keeps up his form, even that is very unlikely to be enough.

The bigger question now seems to be how long can Nole hold Rafa off.  It is still a long shot, but Rafa could conceivably reclaim #1 spot at the USO.  Unless Nole bombs there, Rafa would have to win.  But if Rafa does win, Nole would have to make the final to hold onto the #1 spot.

All in all, I think Nole is still likely to come out of the USO as #1, but he is unlikely to keep that spot at the YE.
Thanks for the chart, SB! ( although I don't like what I see in it...)

I really don't think Nadal will ever win WTF, although to answer Tenez's question, I think he will go for it full on as it's the only big thing he has never won, especially with the form and state the competition is in right now.

Btw, does anyone else except Nole and Nadal have a theoretical ( reasonable) chance of ending number one?

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by summerblues on Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:15 am

noleisthebest wrote:Btw, does anyone else except Nole and Nadal have a theoretical ( reasonable) chance of ending number one?
Reasonable? I would say nobody.  If we want to go wild, then maybe Andy but that is already a big big stretch.

In the race, he is 3,580 points behind Rafa and 1,340 behind Nole.  If he does really well, he has a chance to overtake Nole but he would pretty much need an injured Rafa or something of the sort.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by summerblues on Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:21 am

Thinking a bit more of Nole's chances, I think the most realistic way for him to finish at #1 would be to win at the USO and have Rafa lose early(ish).  Perhaps a draw with Rafa and Andy in the same half, and then Andy taking out Rafa in the SF and Nole beating Andy in the final.  That is plausible and that would shave 1,280 points off Rafa's lead.

So Rafa would be left with a 960 point lead after the USO.  That is still tricky but if Nole hits very good form, he could maybe cover that.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by summerblues on Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:17 am

Tenez wrote:I am not sure why? It was a sincere question. In other words....(if you don;t like the term "cycle down"), Is Nadal going to lose to the Garcia Lopez et Granollers after the USO as he usually does ot is he going to keep it up?
Yes, it was the "cycle down" bit that I reacted to.  I know it can mean all kinds of things but it does hint at the usual topic which can make this forum quite monothematic at times.

Going back to the actual question, I think - as I said before - that Rafa has so much of a lead by now, that he probably does not even need to do better than usual.  As long as he does not do worse, he will likely (though not certainly) be #1 at YE.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

Post by DECIMA on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:02 am

The thing is though, I don't really think Nadal cares that much about number 1, ie compared to Djokovic, Fed etc.

If Murray or Djokovic do win USO, then I will happily say that they are the true number 1s for the season, as one of them will have won two slams. If Nadal can win USO, of course I will say Nadal is the number 1, even if he somehow doesn't get the ranking. I don't really mind what his ATP ranking is tbh.

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Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

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