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Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Veejay on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:50 pm

BlueClay wrote:
Veejay wrote:Thats all drugs and racket technology,I dont think uncle Toni is someone who has a deep enough understanding of the game,the kind that would develop a talent like Gasquest's to achieve his full potential,

Toni does have a deep understanding of the game you are incorrect about that imo and no coach could ever teach Gasquet to achieve his full potential. It is not within Gasquet. You either have it or you don't and that is what separates greats from good players.

It is within Gasquest,just like its within every person.We all have dreams to aspire to become something,it just takes a very special type of person to bring that self belief out by inspiring and motivating a person to reach for their dreams
Teaching/coaching is very phycological,anyone can make someone learn something like a parrot but to actually teach someone something requires a talent that most teachers dont have,cause not everyone has the ability to break through to someone.
Of course I am not saying uncle Toni has no clue of what he is doing but I believe to be able to succesfully coach someone with the amount of talent that Gasquest has would require someone who has close to or the same sort of ability,because no matter how much someone knows about the game or how hard they work,if you dont share that common basis youll never fully understand each other

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Veejay on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:57 pm

BlueClay wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Veejay wrote:I dont think uncle Toni would know how to coach REAL talent
God just imagine that, a shot maker like Gasquest transformed into a 1 dimensional moonballer,
Just when you thought he was the biggest under achiever....

I disagree. Look what he managed to achieve with talentless Nadal and try to imagine what he would do if he had someone who can strike the ball like Gasquet...




Nadal is not talentless. No matter how much you may dislike him saying he is talentless is crazy. He does not have the shot variation or natural talent of a Federer but to say he is untalented is wrong imo and makes Federer look like an idiot, i.e. Federer one of the greatest talents of all time in tennis could not figure out how to beat a talentless pusher on the biggest stages. You are not doing Federer any favours by saying Nadal is talentless.
Just because someone is one of the most talented players ever,doesnt gurantee anything
Talent is only the beginning,its your foot in the door,the rest is hard work,dedication,discipline etc
If we went by your logic then Gasquest should be the one challeneging Federer,so that proves that so much more goes into winning then then just being talented or working hard
When we refer to Nadal as being talententless,its because he doesnt fit the conventional idea of what talent in tennis is.
You are right that he has talent,his ability lies in his athleticism,that gives his a shot at pretty much most sports,but in comparison to Murray,Djokovic and Federer he just simply wasnt born with the gift for the game that they were


Last edited by Veejay on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Tenez on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:58 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Veejay wrote:I dont think uncle Toni would know how to coach REAL talent
God just imagine that, a shot maker like Gasquest transformed into a 1 dimensional moonballer,
Just when you thought he was the biggest under achiever....

I disagree. Look what he managed to achieve with talentless Nadal and try to imagine what he would do if he had someone who can strike the ball like Gasquet...




But what Toni did with Nadal coudl only have been done with the medical team behind. Developing Nadal's marketing image was also a bog part of the job to insure he would every little extra help to his success. In a way Murray had that help as well. However you need to have self belief and Nadal and Murray have some...Gasquet has little of it.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Tenez on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:06 pm

BlueClay wrote:
Veejay wrote:I dont think uncle Toni would know how to coach REAL talent
God just imagine that, a shot maker like Gasquest transformed into a 1 dimensional moonballer,
Just when you thought he was the biggest under achiever....

But even more than the talent aspect, the fighting drive is more important and NO coach could ever teach Gasquet that. Nadal has that, Gasquet does not. That is what makes Nadal a great and Gasquet a mug.

I think Nadal has no more faith than Gasquet......Well he has now slightly more because of their respective record....but when they first met it was Gasquet who led. ....Even when they first met at MC in 2005 (or 2006). But Nadal can rely on his fitness and that is a huge advantage when you need "fighting drive".

Look even this year, despite winning 7 FO, 8 MC, X Madrid and 7 Romes....it was Nadal who was scared to play guys like Brands, Fognini, and Klizan.....only when they started to tire Nadal's confidence grew.

I have been telling you this for weeks now but you don;t want to see it. 99% of Nadal's strength is actually his strengh (power and stamina)...when he has less....he can get bagled by number 100! (it happened).

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Tenez on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:12 pm

Veejay wrote:
It is within Gasquest,just like its within every person.We all have dreams to aspire to become something,it just takes a very special type of person to bring that self belief out by inspiring and motivating a person to reach for their dreams
Teaching/coaching is very phycological,anyone can make someone learn something like a parrot but to actually teach someone something requires a talent that most teachers dont have,cause not everyone has the ability to break through to someone.
Of course I am not saying uncle Toni has no clue of what he is doing but I believe to be able to succesfully coach someone with the amount of talent that Gasquest has would require someone who has close to or the same sort of ability,because no matter how much someone knows about the game or how hard they work,if you dont share that common basis youll never fully understand each other

Yuo see I do not think a coach can make champion out of a non-champion. Before Murray, no first time slam winners was coached by a slam champion. They were all self made in a way...unless of course when they had a team whcih made them physically so much better (Nadal).

I don;t even think Lendl helped Murray become a slam champion. I think he was essentially helped by Djoko being tired otherwise it most likely woudl have been a repeat of all theor other slam encounters.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Tenez on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:20 pm

Veejay wrote:Thats all drugs and racket technology,I dont think uncle Toni is someone who has a deep enough understanding of the game,the kind that would develop a talent like Gasquest's to achieve his full potential,
I also seriosuly disagree with his method of coaching,no kid would be able cope with the grip he has on Nadal,not to that extent and certainly not for so long
They will crack under the intense pressure,it only works for them cause he is a family member
Coahcing isnt about ruling with the iron rod,its about teaching someone how to think for themselves,to make someone find that will to want to stive to be the best they can be and then guide them.That comes from within,you cant teach someone anything otherwise
Its clear someone like Federer had great choaches as he could play without one,Nadal cant even go a match with being coahced from the stands

Indeed. Toni's talent is actually to make talent an obsolete, useless weapon....he brings the elephant in the china shop...or like I said the tree trunk to fell with your sharp Gillette. As you say Toni was goven "medical" weapons and re-applied a old successful formula (Moonballing) only possible thanks to amazing fitness and new technology.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:23 pm

Tenez wrote: But what Toni did with Nadal coudl only have been done with the medical team behind. Developing Nadal's marketing image was also a bog part of the job to insure he would every little extra help to his success. In a way Murray had that help as well. However you need to have self belief and Nadal and Murray have some...Gasquet has little of it.


Murray and Gasquet have basically had everything money can buy in their tennis development, but the reason behind their deep-seated insecurities may be the lack of unconditional love they failed to receive when they were young.

Not the fist-umping despair that comes from the box in the OTF photo we have at the top of the page, but the quiet one that fills you with faith.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:37 pm

The picture that stayed with me was a scene from a Davis Cup match between GB and Austria played in Wimbledon several years ago.

It was in the days when Boggo, yes Boggo! (Alex Bodanovic) used to play for GB alongside Murray brothers and John Lloyd was the captain.

Boggo was playing Melzer. It was a close match and Boggo played his socks off. He punched well above his waist. He was brilliant. But he lost.

During the match, in the changeover, John Lloyd would sit next to Boggo limply, cold, not saying anything much, but his body language spoke volumes.
Behind, on the bench was Andy Murray, in his uber-arrogant mode, rolling eyeballs in disgust at "useless" Boggo. His face distorted like he was near some terrible smell. No encouraging warm hug or fist-pump. No come-ons! No Go Boggo! Nothing. No love at all.

Poor Boggo kept going and going, but you could see as the match went on he hated/dreaded going to the chair and having to feel the ice cold team.

One of the worst things I saw in tennis.

It was utterly disgusting.

I am positive that with a bit of love and encouragement shown from the bench he could have won that match.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Veejay on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:44 pm

Yuo see I do not think a coach can make champion out of a non-champion. Before Murray, no first time slam winners was coached by a slam champion. They were all self made in a way...unless of course when they had a team whcih made them physically so much better (Nadal).

I don;t even think Lendl helped Murray become a slam champion. I think he was essentially helped by Djoko being tired otherwise it most likely woudl have been a repeat of all theor other slam encounters.

Its a bit of a round argument,I do believe the right coach could inspire a champions mentality,but as I said before,the change can only come from within i.e You can lead a horse to water etc...
The hunger to want to learn and improve,be the best you can be can only come from yourself,no one can force you to believe even with an iron rod

When I say the right coach can inspire a champions mentality,its all about motivating someone,making them believe they are a champion
I dont know if someone if born with a champions mentality,obviously its possible but that and being competitive is something that can definitely be taught,espcially from a young age
I just dont think Gasquest has ever had anyone who really got through to him
I think being the child protige he was did a lot of harm,he was one of the best players in his teens,was a bit of a celebrity,made headlines,was really hyped up to be the next French grand slam winner,it all came too soon I think...there wasnt much left to motivate him becoming pro,plus he knew he was talented

I agree with you Murray doesnt have a champions mentality,his win at the U.S Open was more of a fluke than because he was a champion,but funnily enough he is still very competitive '
So you can be very competitive and still not have a champions mentality lol
Llendl has helped but I think Murrays arrogance hurts him,he confuses that with a champions mentality
I think theres quite a big difference between the 2

I think Gasquest is much better off now where he is then if he was being coached by uncle Toni
I said he was an under achiever before,but at least he can think for himself,doesnt have to rely on being coahed through a match and he is one of the most brilliant shot makers in the draw
He plays the game with a lot of flair and is a joy to watch
Just imagine the horror of cloning such a talent into another plastic moonballer
That would be a real waste!!!

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:55 pm

I don't think Toni would have cloned Gasquet into a plastic moon-baller at all.
By doing what he did with Nadal he actually showed a lot of (albeit, negative) creativity: made him left-handed knowing it would give him an instant little advantage, developed the ridiculous forehand and a simple game-plan which has proved to be almost bullet-proof on clay.
The fact that he was allowed to make the full use and get away with "medical" murder is another story.
But the fact he won what he won is more credit to Toni than his nephew.
I don't think we would have ever heard of Rafael without Toni.

Of course, I am only guessing that Toni would be able to handle a talented ball-striker based on the intelligence he applied to create a winning machine out of his nephew.
A good teacher cannot make a genius out of average material, but can certainly polish off a gem when he sees one.

So, the question is how good a teacher Toni is. I would really like him to have another crack at coaching somebody actually properly talented one day.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:02 am

I see uncle Toni as a dangerous sort of coach to tennis cause his plan with Nadal was premeditated
He saw an window of opportunity,kudos to him for capitalising on it but what has that done to the sport?

Im more of an old school person like Federer,its a hollow victory if theres no substance to it

I also find him creepy,the way he mollycoddles Nadal and chaperones him around

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:03 am

Yes I agree with you put it that way.

However I think Gasquet lacks maturity and to me maturity comes with experience....Some are mature young (Murray is quite mature in his own way). Federer was not very mature when he won his first wimby but was so talented he coudl still win it....and the win itself and further success completely turned him into a more mature man.

Gasquet is now much more mature than he was just a couple of years ago. Today he played remarkably on some key points but he is still not mature. In fact you can almost measure maturity by the need to communicate with his box. Federer hardly does it, Djoko just to have a smile, Gasquet is constantly turning to then and telling them how well he has played the point.

A mature player doesn't need to look for advice on key point....cause he knows that the team in the box cannot do anything for him. Gasquet relies too much on his team....and the crowd.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:08 am

Another example is Goran. It took him a while to become mature enough and go all the way. He was extremely talented but always made the mistake to play for a cause (his country) instead of playing for him first. At 29 or 30 he was mature enough to overcome his fears of winning.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by BlueClay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:08 am

Veejay wrote:It is within Gasquest,just like its within every person.We all have dreams to aspire to become something,it just takes a very special type of person to bring that self belief out by inspiring and motivating a person to reach for their dreams
Teaching/coaching is very phycological,anyone can make someone learn something like a parrot but to actually teach someone something requires a talent that most teachers dont have,cause not everyone has the ability to break through to someone.
Of course I am not saying uncle Toni has no clue of what he is doing but I believe to be able to succesfully coach someone with the amount of talent that Gasquest has would require someone who has close to or the same sort of ability,because no matter how much someone knows about the game or how hard they work,if you dont share that common basis youll never fully understand each other

It is within every person but not to the same degree. Nadal has more of the drive needed to be a winner than Gasquet at least that is my opinion.

I disagree with the entire rest of your post. I don't think one needs a teacher or coach who has close to or the same type of ability. If that were true, no players or very few would have these type of coaches as most coaches are much lesser talents than the actual players. Look at Annacone/Federer, Annacone was a mug compared to Federer. One of the exceptions I can think of is Lendl/Murray where Lendl is clearly the better player.

Nope, imo no coach in the world could make Gasquet a big driving force mentally. He is a flat out retard in that area.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:10 am

Veejay wrote:I see uncle Toni as a dangerous sort of coach to tennis cause his plan with Nadal was premeditated
He saw an window of opportunity,kudos to him for capitalising on it but what has that done to the sport?

Im more of an old school person like Federer,its a hollow victory if theres no substance to it

I also find him creepy,the way he mollycoddles Nadal and chaperones him around

I don't think Toni was THAT clever....to forsee what he was doing to the sport. Nor was he interested. Probably still completely oblivious to the damage he inflicted. He is far more down to earth, pragmatic sort with a slight Mengele twist to it all.

I have said it many times before, and I still don't know how he managed to pull it all off, it was probably a lot to do with being in the right place at the right time kind of thing more than his insight, as he could have never succeeded 20 years ago.
I find it really fascinating.


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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:13 am

But having said all that, Gasquet has not got the sheer talent to take the ball earlier. This is really his downfall for now more than his mind. Taking the ball earlier would require

a) more talent (to take the ball earlier)

b) more guts (a and b are very linked actually)

With (a and b) he would have never lost v Murray twice from being 2 sets and a break up in slams.

He has more technique than talent actually.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:14 am

Yes i agree Tenez,maturity comes with experience
As you pointed out,he also isnt very disciplined,is easily distracted and is very self conscious and fragile,but he is much better now then before

Thats one thing I always admire about Federer,he is so professional.He blocks the crowd and everything else out and is totally focused on whats in front of him
He rarely celebrates a point and if he does its never to get the crowd involved
This is what I mean about Roger having good coaches,these things were drilled into him,he was coahced in a way that made him independent,he could think for himself and trust his own instincts,he even coached himself for several years
That is what I mean by the difference of parrot learning and actually teaching someone
Compare that with Nadal who cant even serve without being signalled

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by BlueClay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:15 am

Tenez wrote:
I think Nadal has no more faith than Gasquet......Well he has now slightly more because of their respective record....but when they first met it was Gasquet who led. ....Even when they first met at MC in 2005 (or 2006). But Nadal can rely on his fitness and that is a huge advantage when you need "fighting drive".

Look even this year, despite winning 7 FO, 8 MC, X Madrid and 7 Romes....it was Nadal who was scared to play guys like Brands, Fognini, and Klizan.....only when they started to tire Nadal's confidence grew.

I have been telling you this for weeks now but you don;t want to see it. 99% of Nadal's strength is actually his strengh (power and stamina)...when he has less....he can get bagled by number 100! (it happened).

I disagree.

You can tell me for another 1000 weeks and it won't change the fact that I simply disagree with you on this issue. I do agree that a lot of Nadal's strength is his physicality--i.e. athleticism and speed but Nadal also has a mental drive that is a big part of his success IMO.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:16 am

Tenez wrote:But having said all that, Gasquet has not got the sheer talent to take the ball earlier. This is really his downfall for now more than his mind. Taking the ball earlier would require

a) more talent (to take the ball earlier)

b) more guts (a and b are very linked actually)

With (a and b) he would have never lost v Murray twice from being 2 sets and a break up in slams.

He has more technique than talent actually.

Super spot on, T! Mystery resolved at last. Applause

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by BlueClay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:18 am

Veejay wrote:Yes i agree Tenez,maturity comes with experience
As you pointed out,he also isnt very disciplined,is easily distracted and is very self conscious and fragile,but he is much better now then before

Thats one thing I always admire about Federer,he is so professional.He blocks the crowd and everything else out and is totally focused on whats in front of him
He rarely celebrates a point and if he does its never to get the crowd involved
This is what I mean about Roger having good coaches,these things were drilled into him,he was coahced in a way that made him independent,he could think for himself and trust his own instincts,he even coached himself for several years
That is what I mean by the difference of parrot learning and actually teaching someone
Compare that with Nadal who cant even serve without being signalled

Gasquet is 27 years old, he is at his very peak or slightly past it already. This is the best of him we are going to see imo. This guy has been touted as the next best thing since forever and the fact is that he has a lovely game to watch but the guy is a zero in the fitness and mentality departments. Top ten is the highest he will ever go.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:19 am

BlueClay wrote:
Tenez wrote:
I think Nadal has no more faith than Gasquet......Well he has now slightly more because of their respective record....but when they first met it was Gasquet who led. ....Even when they first met at MC in 2005 (or 2006). But Nadal can rely on his fitness and that is a huge advantage when you need "fighting drive".

Look even this year, despite winning 7 FO, 8 MC, X Madrid and 7 Romes....it was Nadal who was scared to play guys like Brands, Fognini, and Klizan.....only when they started to tire Nadal's confidence grew.

I have been telling you this for weeks now but you don;t want to see it. 99% of Nadal's strength is actually his strengh (power and stamina)...when he has less....he can get bagled by number 100! (it happened).

I disagree.

You can tell me for another 1000 weeks and it won't change the fact that I simply disagree with you on this issue. I do agree that a lot of Nadal's strength is his physicality--i.e. athleticism and speed but Nadal also has a mental drive that is a big part of his success IMO.

I have arguments...I can't find yours.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:19 am

BlueClay wrote:
Tenez wrote:
I think Nadal has no more faith than Gasquet......Well he has now slightly more because of their respective record....but when they first met it was Gasquet who led. ....Even when they first met at MC in 2005 (or 2006). But Nadal can rely on his fitness and that is a huge advantage when you need "fighting drive".

Look even this year, despite winning 7 FO, 8 MC, X Madrid and 7 Romes....it was Nadal who was scared to play guys like Brands, Fognini, and Klizan.....only when they started to tire Nadal's confidence grew.

I have been telling you this for weeks now but you don;t want to see it. 99% of Nadal's strength is actually his strengh (power and stamina)...when he has less....he can get bagled by number 100! (it happened).

I disagree.

You can tell me for another 1000 weeks and it won't change the fact that I simply disagree with you on this issue. I do agree that a lot of Nadal's strength is his physicality--i.e. athleticism and speed but Nadal also has a mental drive that is a big part of his success IMO.

If he had any mental drive he would not be 3m behind the base line scared to move forward. I think you are confusing focus with drive.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:23 am

Tenez wrote:But having said all that, Gasquet has not got the sheer talent to take the ball earlier. This is really his downfall for now more than his mind. Taking the ball earlier would require

a) more talent (to take the ball earlier)

b) more guts (a and b are very linked actually)

With (a and b) he would have never lost v Murray twice from being 2 sets and a break up in slams.

He has more technique than talent actually.

I would go with B...you have to be brave to win
I think his weakeness right now lies in his fitness or would that be foot work?
To take the ball early would require you to position yourself earlier no?
Federer isnt exactly the most athletic and fastest runner in the world but he works really hard on his foot work and it pays off
Gasquest has a similar sort of lyrical movement so I think theres room for improvement
I think the fact that we question if Gasquest has more technique then talent proves how much the game has changed

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by BlueClay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:23 am

Tenez wrote:
BlueClay wrote:
Tenez wrote:
I think Nadal has no more faith than Gasquet......Well he has now slightly more because of their respective record....but when they first met it was Gasquet who led. ....Even when they first met at MC in 2005 (or 2006). But Nadal can rely on his fitness and that is a huge advantage when you need "fighting drive".

Look even this year, despite winning 7 FO, 8 MC, X Madrid and 7 Romes....it was Nadal who was scared to play guys like Brands, Fognini, and Klizan.....only when they started to tire Nadal's confidence grew.

I have been telling you this for weeks now but you don;t want to see it. 99% of Nadal's strength is actually his strengh (power and stamina)...when he has less....he can get bagled by number 100! (it happened).

I disagree.

You can tell me for another 1000 weeks and it won't change the fact that I simply disagree with you on this issue. I do agree that a lot of Nadal's strength is his physicality--i.e. athleticism and speed but Nadal also has a mental drive that is a big part of his success IMO.

I have arguments...I can't find yours.



It is an opinion just as yours in merely an opinion. For me Nadal is right up there with Connors and Sampras and perhaps Hewitt in the mental strength dept. I hate Nadal's whining, his stupid injury excuses and his gamesmanship at times but in the mental strength dept. for me he is at the very top.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:24 am

BlueClay wrote:
Gasquet is 27 years old, he is at his very peak or slightly past it already. This is the best of him we are going to see imo. This guy has been touted as the next best thing since forever and the fact is that he has a lovely game to watch but the guy is a zero in the fitness and mentality departments. Top ten is the highest he will ever go.

I agree with you that Gasquet has been overrated, just like Murray, except that Gasquet can strike the ball much better than Murray, but as Tenez said, the lack of guts really let him down as he was never able to channel and utilize his shotmaking into a game, he wastes at least 2-3 shots in almost every point because of it. Stan, on the other hand pulls the trigger as soon as he possibly can.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by BlueClay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:26 am

noleisthebest wrote:
BlueClay wrote:
Tenez wrote:
I think Nadal has no more faith than Gasquet......Well he has now slightly more because of their respective record....but when they first met it was Gasquet who led. ....Even when they first met at MC in 2005 (or 2006). But Nadal can rely on his fitness and that is a huge advantage when you need "fighting drive".

Look even this year, despite winning 7 FO, 8 MC, X Madrid and 7 Romes....it was Nadal who was scared to play guys like Brands, Fognini, and Klizan.....only when they started to tire Nadal's confidence grew.

I have been telling you this for weeks now but you don;t want to see it. 99% of Nadal's strength is actually his strengh (power and stamina)...when he has less....he can get bagled by number 100! (it happened).

I disagree.

You can tell me for another 1000 weeks and it won't change the fact that I simply disagree with you on this issue. I do agree that a lot of Nadal's strength is his physicality--i.e. athleticism and speed but Nadal also has a mental drive that is a big part of his success IMO.

If he had any mental drive he would not be 3m behind the base line scared to move forward. I think you are confusing focus with drive.

No, I am not confusing focus and mental drive at all. Nadal has both. I abhor him at times but for me he is one of the best in those particular depts.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:27 am

What do you actually understand and mean by "mental strength" and "mental drive" , BlueClay ?


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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by BlueClay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:28 am

noleisthebest wrote:
BlueClay wrote:
Gasquet is 27 years old, he is at his very peak or slightly past it already. This is the best of him we are going to see imo. This guy has been touted as the next best thing since forever and the fact is that he has a lovely game to watch but the guy is a zero in the fitness and mentality departments. Top ten is the highest he will ever go.

I agree with you that Gasquet has been overrated, just like Murray, except that Gasquet can strike the ball much better than Murray, but as Tenez said, the lack of guts really let him down as he was never able to channel and utilize his shotmaking into a game, he wastes at least 2-3 shots in almost every point because of it. Stan, on the other hand pulls the trigger as soon as he possibly can.

Yes but Murray has a slam and a bundle of Masters 1000 titles, Gasquet does not. Murray is better than Gasquet imo even though Gasquet has a lot of natural talent that Murray may not have. Murray is definitely a harder worker than Gasquet.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:30 am

Veejay wrote:I would go with B...you have to be brave to win
I think his weakeness right now lies in his fitness or would that be foot work?
To take the ball early would require you to position yourself earlier no?
Federer isnt exactly the most athletic and fastest runner in the world but he works really hard on his foot work and it pays off
Gasquest has a similar sort of lyrical movement so I think theres room for improvement
I think the fact that we question if Gasquest has more technique then talent proves how much the game has changed

But talent really helps you being consistent while taking the ball early. I can;t say that Nalby or davenport have a great footwork but they can take the ball early and time it to perfection. That;s talent...and talent unlike big muscles and stamina is very fragile.

Yuo right that Gasquet woudl benefot a lot by being fitter....and has actually benefited from it over the past few months but again standing that far back will tire him very quick.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by BlueClay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:30 am

noleisthebest wrote:What do you actually understand and mean by "mental strength" and "mental drive" , BlueClay ?

I mean the motivation to be the very best you can be consistently and to fight for every point. Nadal has the first quality and is the very best at the second IMO.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:37 am

BlueClay wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:What do you actually understand and mean by "mental strength" and "mental drive" , BlueClay ?

I mean the motivation to be the very best you can be consistently and to fight for every point. Nadal has the first quality and is the very best at the second IMO.

I don't think Nadal has ever been the very best.
A lot of players want and do the same, Ferrer, for example also fights for every point, so why does he not have 11 slams under his belt?


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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:38 am

BlueClay wrote:



It is an opinion just as yours in merely an opinion. For me Nadal is right up there with Connors and Sampras and perhaps Hewitt in the mental strength dept. I hate Nadal's whining, his stupid injury excuses and his gamesmanship at times but in the mental strength dept. for me he is at the very top.

Yes but I don;t simply choose to have such or such opinion. I observe. I observe that Nadal is a very poor starter....not because he is rusty but because his scare of players able to hit winners past him. He says it himself in his bio. He is not keen to pull a winner at 60% if 5 shots down the line he can have a 80% chance winner. But it;s the same thing when he faces guys who can pull winners past him (often when fresh at teh beginning of a match), he simply panicks and plays gutlessly. Only when they tire and start to misfire, does he relax.....and that again is in his bio in some forms.

I also told yuo that when faced v a player who can rally with him he will throw the UEs first. Again check that MC 2013 TB v Djoko or any of that 2011 TMS or slam encunters v Djioko. No gut, at all. Each time crumbling first under pressure.

Those are my argiments....stil waiting to read yours.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:43 am

BlueClay wrote:
Veejay wrote:It is within Gasquest,just like its within every person.We all have dreams to aspire to become something,it just takes a very special type of person to bring that self belief out by inspiring and motivating a person to reach for their dreams
Teaching/coaching is very phycological,anyone can make someone learn something like a parrot but to actually teach someone something requires a talent that most teachers dont have,cause not everyone has the ability to break through to someone.
Of course I am not saying uncle Toni has no clue of what he is doing but I believe to be able to succesfully coach someone with the amount of talent that Gasquest has would require someone who has close to or the same sort of ability,because no matter how much someone knows about the game or how hard they work,if you dont share that common basis youll never fully understand each other

It is within every person but not to the same degree. Nadal has more of the drive needed to be a winner than Gasquet at least that is my opinion.

I disagree with the entire rest of your post. I don't think one needs a teacher or coach who has close to or the same type of ability. If that were true, no players or very few would have these type of coaches as most coaches are much lesser talents than the actual players. Look at Annacone/Federer, Annacone was a mug compared to Federer. One of the exceptions I can think of is Lendl/Murray where Lendl is clearly the better player.

Nope, imo no coach in the world could make Gasquet a big driving force mentally. He is a flat out retard in that area.

Of course,everyone is different,some have to work harder then others for the same victory,some have to sacrfice more then others
Nadal is far more competitive then Gasquest
Look I understand what youre saying,being the best player doesnt automatically mean youll be the best coach just like being ranked 70 doesnt mean you dont have the gift to teach
My point was that someone like uncle Tony will never understand what its like being as talented a player as Gasquet
That is quite a major flaw when taking into consideration the highs and lows of working with different degrees of talent
Sure uncle Tony may be the most knowledgable coach in the world,but the mere fact that he doesnt share a common basis already rules out the posibility of not even really knowing how good a player Gasquest could be
Thats the thing with talent,it can be obvious to the eye and you think you may have seen or experienced it all before but no one ever saw it coming with Federer
This is what i mean when saying "reaching your full potential" not just coaching someone to reasonable success
It took some mentoring from the great Tony Roach,someone who has far more in common with talent wise with Federer then what uncle Tony would have with Gasquest


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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:47 am

Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:I would go with B...you have to be brave to win
I think his weakeness right now lies in his fitness or would that be foot work?
To take the ball early would require you to position yourself earlier no?
Federer isnt exactly the most athletic and fastest runner in the world but he works really hard on his foot work and it pays off
Gasquest has a similar sort of lyrical movement so I think theres room for improvement
I think the fact that we question if Gasquest has more technique then talent proves how much the game has changed

But talent really helps you being consistent while taking the ball early. I can;t say that Nalby or davenport have a great footwork but they can take the ball early and time it to perfection. That;s talent...and talent unlike big muscles and stamina is very fragile.

Yuo right that Gasquet woudl benefot a lot by being fitter....and has actually benefited from it over the past few months but again standing that far back will tire him very quick.

I get what youre saying,its like timing or hand eye coordination,either you have it or you dont
But couldnt an argument be made that its just the way he was taught to play?
I am just asking cause Gasquest is a habit sort of player,he likes playing in his comfort zone

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by summerblues on Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:55 am

Glad that Stan won, but I was hoping it would be quicker. I did not think he was going to beat Rafa, but I really thought he could give him a decent fight - is spite of his horrible past record. But I am worried he may not be able to recover fully; in which case it will be very one sided.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by sphairistike on Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:24 am

noleisthebest wrote:Order of play out for tomorrow:

Court Philippe Chatrier 1:00 PM UK time

Agnieszka Radwanska (POL) [4]vs.Sara Errani (ITA) [5]
Jo-Wilfried Tsonga (FRA) [6]vs.Roger Federer (SUI) [2]

Court Suzanne Lenglen 1:00 UK time

Serena Williams (USA) [1]vs.Svetlana Kuznetsova (RUS)
Tommy Robredo (ESP) [32]vs.David Ferrer (ESP) [4]

My picks (please move them to day 10 thread):
Errani [5], Tsonga [6], Kuznetsova, Robredo [32]

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:47 am

Veejay wrote:
I get what youre saying,its like timing or hand eye coordination,either you have it or you dont
But couldnt an argument be made that its just the way he was taught to play?
I am just asking cause Gasquest is a habit sort of player,he likes playing in his comfort zone

You can typically work on timing late in your life. I for instance think that Federer improved his timing from younger peak years....though he lost some explosiveness in the process. Like pianists becomes better with age. If Gasquet had teh guts to get the ball closer more and more he'd get used to it.

Even Nadal's timing improves.....but same for him he lacks the guts to hit through on pressure time. Wilander again was asying that he had been following Nadal training for a couple of weeks and Toni tried to force Nadal to hit through the ball more and get rid of this lasso FH....and apparently he does it very well in training and Wilander was shocked to see he could not do it in those tense matches he had in the first FO rounds this year.

It's like for us at club levels, we can hit flat SHBH when it doesn't matter much but in match situation many will revert to sliced SHBH. It takes confidence and guts to produce the risky shot when it matters.

BlueClay clearly mixes things up when he thinks Nadal has guts....Nadal's game is based on NOT using guts. All his risky shots come when he has no choice (v Djoko essentially) or when well in the lead.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by BlueClay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:37 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
BlueClay wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:What do you actually understand and mean by "mental strength" and "mental drive" , BlueClay ?

I mean the motivation to be the very best you can be consistently and to fight for every point. Nadal has the first quality and is the very best at the second IMO.

I don't think Nadal has ever been the very best.
A lot of players want and do the same, Ferrer, for example also fights for every point, so why does he not have 11 slams under his belt?

Because he does not have the self-belief Nadal has nor does he have the talent. I know you refuse to see it but it is what it is.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by BlueClay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:38 pm

[quote="summerblues"]Glad that Stan won, but I was hoping it would be quicker. I did not think he was going to beat Rafa, but I really thought he could give him a decent fight - is spite of his horrible past record. But I am worried he may not be able to recover fully; in which case it will be very one sided.[/qIuote]

It will be one-sided either way. Nadal in straights maybe four if he is not at his best.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

Post by BlueClay on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:40 pm

Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:
I get what youre saying,its like timing or hand eye coordination,either you have it or you dont
But couldnt an argument be made that its just the way he was taught to play?
I am just asking cause Gasquest is a habit sort of player,he likes playing in his comfort zone

You can typically work on timing late in your life. I for instance think that Federer improved his timing from younger peak years....though he lost some explosiveness in the process. Like pianists becomes better with age. If Gasquet had teh guts to get the ball closer more and more he'd get used to it.

Even Nadal's timing improves.....but same for him he lacks the guts to hit through on pressure time. Wilander again was asying that he had been following Nadal training for a couple of weeks and Toni tried to force Nadal to hit through the ball more and get rid of this lasso FH....and apparently he does it very well in training and Wilander was shocked to see he could not do it in those tense matches he had in the first FO rounds this year.

It's like for us at club levels, we can hit flat SHBH when it doesn't matter much but in match situation many will revert to sliced SHBH. It takes confidence and guts to produce the risky shot when it matters.

BlueClay clearly mixes things up when he thinks Nadal has guts....Nadal's game is based on NOT using guts. All his risky shots come when he has no choice (v Djoko essentially) or when well in the lead.



Your opinion, not mine. All I know is Gasquet is a full-blown retard when it comes to mental strength and Nadal is one of the best.

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Re: Roland Garros 2013: Day 9 03/06/2013

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