Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» Murray and his future.....
Yesterday at 11:44 pm by Tenez

» Men's Final - USO 2018
Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:36 pm by legendkillar

» How good is Stefanos Tsitsipas?
Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:15 pm by Jahu

» Ladies Final - USO 2018
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:48 am by bogbrush

» Why the big 3 Slam tally might never be matched
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:26 pm by Jahu

» Has there ever been a more eventful grand slam?
Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:51 pm by Jahu

» Mens SF - USO2018
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:41 pm by Tenez

» Screech is back - and not a moment too soon
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:44 pm by Daniel

» Could Djokovic achieve the greatest comeback since 'Lazarus'?
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:42 pm by Daniel

September 2018
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
     12
3456789
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930

Calendar Calendar

Affiliates
free forum


The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Page 18 of 22 Previous  1 ... 10 ... 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22  Next

Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:31 pm

legendkillar wrote:The key point in that article, is "limited evidence" in relation to Salbutamol being taken orally via an inhaler to have anywhere near the levels of performance enhancing properties to high levels.
And again what does "limited" mean? It does not mean No evidence! Other studies show there is clear evidence. If there was no evidence, it would not need to be dosed in the first place.

The only facts I can see with the Froome case is he failed a test. I have no knowledge what form he took it in or the normal dose he takes (if he is indeed a genuine asthmatic).
It does not really matter what form he took. The subs itself is a PED as it technically increases blood flow.

If more doctors now are diagnosing asthmatics (in sport) it needs to seriously be reviewed.
Right...but a bit late. We did not say Sharapova's case "need to be reviewed". She had to be crucified. When it comes to Wiggins or Froome we talk about "adverse" findings!

I can't see Froome coming back from this even if it is a genuine mistake.
I think it is a genuine mistake. He is not stupid enough to take twice the dose knowing he will be found out. The journalist makes the same case as I made to defend Shara. The difference is Shara took a drug that was not on the list up to weeks before being tested positive while Froome is taking a drug whihc should have always been on the list regardless of the dose.

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:47 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Depends if this is the same medical model approach psychiatrists take with prescribing anyone in mental or emotional stress with drugs that sporting doctors are taking with asthma.
But the big difference here is that those with mental or emotional stress do not earn money competing in a sport where the main aim is to show mental strength and composure. if there was such a sport, we would call those with medication dopers. That's the problem of having to help asthmatic win long distance races.

I share the same principle that if he doesn't take Salbutamol outside of competition, it makes the whole situation a fiasco.
Even if he does take Salbutamol outside competition. It does not change anything. It's not taking it at all during competition that matters.

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:41 pm

Interesting situation. It’s very difficult to see how he could end up with twice the legal amount in his blood for one day by taking the correct dosage. On the other hand, taking a deliberately high dosage was always going to mean he would be caught and wouldn’t be worth the risk.

I doubt he avoids a ban here. Very hard to prove his case that he had an anomalous result despite taking the correct level of dose. Looks like his Vuelta is gone.

Slippy

Posts : 408
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:25 pm

Slippy wrote:Interesting situation. It’s very difficult to see how he could end up with twice the legal amount in his blood for one day by taking the correct dosage. On the other hand, taking a deliberately high dosage was always going to mean he would be caught and wouldn’t be worth the risk.

I doubt he avoids a ban here. Very hard to prove his case that he had an anomalous result despite taking the correct level of dose. Looks like his Vuelta is gone.

Maybe he has done it many times in the past and got away with it.

Or maybe this is all a political decision so to speak. We don’t know.


Wiggo was very high profile case too and from what I know, he did not suffer any consequences.

I don’t follow cyclling, is Froome towards the end tail of his career?

If so, he’d be an ideal scapegoat “the gentle way”.

Raise a bit of dust before Christmas and it will soon be forgotten (like with WigginsJ.

So WADA doing that reminds me a little of local councils who suddenly start painting railings and fixing odd road holes just before the end of tax year.


noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:43 pm

Again the problem is not taking twice the allowed dose...it is not making such a PED in the prohibited list in the first place. There is a reason why athletes are now all asthmatics!


Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:04 pm

It’s difficult to draw a line there in a way.

I don’t know how asthma affects performance in sport, can an asthmatic be a professional athlete in today’s cut-throat levels of competition?

What is bad is if healthy athletes are pretending they have asthma in order to dope, which seems to be the case.

It’s bad enough consuming endless big brufen doses every day to soothe inflammation of tired ligaments and muscles for recovery, but it’s another level to “play” with your  blood with these inhalers in order to be able to outlast the opponent(s).

And the story is definitely there to be continued...with newer and ever more cutting edge “advancements” of medicine.

In a way, it saddens me to see all these young athletes, tattooed, clearly pushing their minds and bodies over the limits.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:50 am

And I am almost certain now that the plan to erase all records by the IAAF came from this asthmatic joke.

The authorities most likely believed the story of "athmatic" athletes at first and therefore granted the right to use Salbutamol but then realised later due to the sheer number of new sudden asthmatics that they were cheated. But of course they could not mentioned specifically why they wished to erase records as all the so-called asthmatics would be labelled dopers and find themselves under the biggest trials.

No-one understood why the IAAF suddenly came up with that plan to erase records. I think we now have a reason which makes perfect sense.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-05-02/athletes-condemn-plans-to-erase-sports-world-records/

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:48 am

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:The key point in that article, is "limited evidence" in relation to Salbutamol being taken orally via an inhaler to have anywhere near the levels of performance enhancing properties to high levels.
And again what does "limited" mean? It does not mean No evidence! Other studies show there is clear evidence. If there was no evidence, it would not need to be dosed in the first place.

The only facts I can see with the Froome case is he failed a test. I have no knowledge what form he took it in or the normal dose he takes (if he is indeed a genuine asthmatic).
It does not really matter what form he took. The subs itself is a PED as it technically increases blood flow.

If more doctors now are diagnosing asthmatics (in sport) it needs to seriously be reviewed.
Right...but a bit late. We did not say Sharapova's case "need to be reviewed". She had to be crucified. When it comes to Wiggins or Froome we talk about "adverse" findings!

I can't see Froome coming back from this even if it is a genuine mistake.
I think it is a genuine mistake. He is not stupid enough to take twice the dose knowing he will be found out. The journalist makes the same case as I made to defend Shara. The difference is Shara took a drug that was not on the list up to weeks before being tested positive while Froome is taking a drug whihc should have always been on the list regardless of the dose.


1) It means there is nothing absolutely conclusive! Like with anything depends what studies you place more weighting and creditability on. Not ideal, but how it is.

2) The form is important from the perspective as this could have an impact on the dose and hence could be more credible mistake wise if the doctor simply prescribed the wrong dose.

3) How is it late? Taking corrective action is a good thing. I'd rather they do something than nothing. Sharapova tested positive. Like Froome has. Closed book.

4) Well we shall see if it's a mistake. Again until the findings are disclosed, I have an open mind.

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:52 am

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Depends if this is the same medical model approach psychiatrists take with prescribing anyone in mental or emotional stress with drugs that sporting doctors are taking with asthma.
But the big difference here is that those with mental or emotional stress do not earn money competing in a sport where the main aim is to show mental strength and composure. if there was such a sport, we would call those with medication dopers. That's the problem of having to help asthmatic win long distance races.  

I share the same principle that if he doesn't take Salbutamol outside of competition, it makes the whole situation a fiasco.
Even if he does take Salbutamol outside competition. It does not change anything. It's not taking it at all during competition that matters.


1) No difference. It's taking a medical approach rather than alternative approaches. Cognitive therapy/talking therapy as with breathing exercises. My point is does drugs need to be the default position for treatment of a condition.

2) It does to me. Hence why I was annoyed with Wiggins who out of competition used an inhaler and yet in competition got a TUE for steroid injection. An absolute disgrace! Least with Froome if he uses an inhaler all the time, would suggest some credibility that he is a genuine asthmatic.

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:45 pm

Yeah, he has also said he has had asthma since childhood - whilst it could be a lie, it would be a bit of a risky one as someone might say otherwise. He also certainly sounds asthmatic in some of his post-race interviews.

Unless there is another way to treat asthma, I don't agree with Tenez's position that no Salbutamol should be permitted. I wouldn't want an asthmatic not to be able to compete - unless there was evidence they were gaining advantage. As it is, a limit on the allowed amount seems a sensible approach.

NITB - Froome won 2 of the 3 grand tours last year (effectively the equivalent of a grand slam). He's the best in the world, near the height of his powers.

Slippy

Posts : 408
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:39 pm

You are so biased Slippy when it comes to GB athletes. So for you there is nothing to worry about that 30% of Team SKY and 70% of GB swimmers have asthma?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/28/asthma-elite-athletes-study-swimmers-cyclist-eid

Either you are really gullible or you are biased, you choose.

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:21 pm

My point was that I wouldn’t want to see someone who has genuine asthma prevented from competing. I’m not sure how that makes me biased or gullible. 

I agree with you that the figures in that article look high - although it does give reasons why that is the case. It also seems to have been the result of an independent study?  I’d want some context as to whether they were out of step with the professional athletes from other countries. Have you found any equivalent figures from France, Russia etc?

Slippy

Posts : 408
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:18 am

C'mon Slippy face the facts once and for all. Stop looking at circumstances and excuses. All your stamina champions (Farah, Froome, Radcliffe...and more) have asthma.

Do you know genuine asthmatics? I know some and when they have a crisis, they can't breath....in spite of the inhaler.

And why woudl an asthmatic be allowed to compete with drugs when those with no legs are not allowed compete with blades in the main race?

What's the logic there?

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:57 am

Tenez wrote:C'mon Slippy face the facts once and for all. Stop looking at circumstances and excuses. All your stamina champions (Farah, Froome, Radcliffe...and more) have asthma.

Do you know genuine asthmatics? I know some and when they have a crisis, they can't breath....in spite of the inhaler.

And why woudl an asthmatic be allowed to compete with drugs when those with no legs are not allowed compete with blades in the main race?

What's the logic there?
I've been a genuine asthmatic all my life and that's not correct. Salbutamol provides short term relief unless your condition has become critical (happened once to me and I was hospitalised). It's only a reliever and not a proper way of controlling your condition but the one I use to achieve that has, I think, got some steroid involvement so I assume you'd frown on that.

Asthma treatment restores the individual to the condition they normally are (if you're puffing the Salbutamol more than a couple of times a day your condition needs attention). For the great majority of the day you are like a normal person and the medicine brings you back. That's quite different from blades as the disabled runner never has legs.

bogbrush

Posts : 2409
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by luvsports! on Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:16 pm

Do you think Froome should get off w/o a ban, BB?

luvsports!

Posts : 4558
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:41 pm

I honestly don't know. I guess it all comes down to whether he's been going over the top on normal theraputic needs, and he says he hasn't. How often you use the puffer is extremely easy to monitor and if he is as crystal clear as this then it's a strange defence if he's lying.

I always reckoned a puffer has more oomph when it's new, and maybe his samples are different if he's been riding up a mountain all day, but he's going to get tested on Salbutomol uptake I think, and I guess if that showed he hits high numbers for moderate intake then there's no problem. Obviously more problematic if he doesn't.

Thing is though even if all these athletes take a few puffs to clear the airways even if they're not asthmatic I'm not sure what the problem is. Asthma isn't binary, some can't walk (when I was a kid I could get to the stage where I couldn't even stand up straight) others have occasional inconvenience (me now). We all have constricted airways to one extent or another and for healthy athletes they might regard it as something just to sharpen up. I'm just surprised that it's such a big deal unless it's a masking agent.

bogbrush

Posts : 2409
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:30 pm

Froome should still get a ban. Harsh, but he still produced a positive test. Problem is where do you stop if you don't issue bans because of negligence?

The thing is if he was unwell and required increased doses that pushed beyond the permissible levels, don't compete. It's like with an injury. If you are not fit enough to participate, don't.

UCI and WADA would make an even bigger rod for their own backs if they a lenient. Takes accountability away from the athlete.

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by luvsports! on Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:59 pm

If Petacchi got a 1year ban for having 65% of what Froome had, I think Froome should get that, if not more.

luvsports!

Posts : 4558
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:06 pm

Just pretend/imagine Froome is Russian or Chinese...

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:16 pm

I wonder whether PEDs is or could be going the way of criminal offences, where they’ve become so hopeless at nailing the real baddies that all sorts of marginal offences become the focus.

bogbrush

Posts : 2409
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:54 pm

bogbrush wrote:I've been a genuine asthmatic all my life and that's not correct. Salbutamol provides short term relief unless your condition has become critical (happened once to me and I was hospitalised).
Well this is what I mean. I don't need to be asthmatic to see the impact it has on those affected. And I do not believe those who have strong asthma crisis can have a full sporting career. For some reasons those athletes never miss great sporting events...but for some reasons perform best at will!

It's only a reliever and not a proper way of controlling your condition but the one I use to achieve that has, I think, got some steroid involvement so I assume you'd frown on that.
Well even Salbutamol has some steroid effect apparently. And it's of course a reliever for those who have asthma but also an enhancer for those who haven't. Cause otherwise you would not have a greater list of sudden asthmatics in sport.

Asthma treatment restores the individual to the condition they normally are (if you're puffing the Salbutamol more than a couple of times a day your condition needs attention). For the great majority of the day you are like a normal person and the medicine brings you back. That's quite different from blades as the disabled runner never has legs.
The only difference is that one help is physic, the other is physiologic.

And if Salbutamol was not helping there woudl be no need to limit the dosage. The dosage is there to help those with "asthma" increase their blood flow. SO anyone who can have a doctor signing for asthma treatment will benefit from Salbutamol. It is as simple as that. And this is the very reason why you have so many asthmatic athletes in the UK and you don't have nearly as many in other countries and this is also why you have GB doing better than China at the Olympics.

gullible or biased you choose.

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:01 pm

legendkillar wrote:Froome should still get a ban. Harsh, but he still produced a positive test. Problem is where do you stop if you don't issue bans because of negligence?
Not harsh. He is a cheat....not because he has double the amount....that's probably a stupid mistake (I guess) but because he is using Salbutamol in the first place. I am pretty sure this drug will be banned one day.

The thing is if he was unwell and required increased doses that pushed beyond the permissible levels, don't compete. It's like with an injury. If you are not fit enough to participate, don't.
Completely agree with this logic...but would push it further. If you are asthmatic, too bad...compete as long as your natural ability allows you to...no different than a person with a food disorder wishing to lose weight is not allowed to use fat burning drugs. Maybe they should create another league for paralympics for asthmatics...but sport shoudl be drug free as simple as that.

UCI and WADA would make an even bigger rod for their own backs if they a lenient. Takes accountability away from the athlete.
The former UCI director (McQuin?) is virulent against his successor and rightly so.

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:09 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Just pretend/imagine Froome is Russian or Chinese...

Exactly. It is amazing how difficult it is for some to apply the law of relativity!

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:15 pm

bogbrush wrote:I wonder whether PEDs is or could be going the way of criminal offences, where they’ve become so hopeless at nailing the real baddies that all sorts of marginal offences become the focus.

It is the other way around. I know you do not believe in God and Evil but that maybe because as the expression says, they are in "the details"...and you can't see them.

No different than saying Nadal's 10s extra between point is a "marginal offence". It is simply key and has earned him many slams as sometimes he woudl have had the impossible task to run same distance with an hour to spare on a single match.

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:19 pm

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:I wonder whether PEDs is or could be going the way of criminal offences, where they’ve become so hopeless at nailing the real baddies that all sorts of marginal offences become the focus.

It is the other way around. I know you do not believe in God and Evil but that maybe because as the expression says, they are in "the details"...and you can't see them.

No different than saying Nadal's  10s extra between point is a "marginal offence". It is simply key and has earned him many slams as sometimes he woudl have had the impossible task to run same distance with an hour to spare on a single match.

Or as TESCO would say - every little helps... Whistle

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:49 am

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:I wonder whether PEDs is or could be going the way of criminal offences, where they’ve become so hopeless at nailing the real baddies that all sorts of marginal offences become the focus.

It is the other way around. I know you do not believe in God and Evil but that maybe because as the expression says, they are in "the details"...and you can't see them.

No different than saying Nadal's  10s extra between point is a "marginal offence". It is simply key and has earned him many slams as sometimes he woudl have had the impossible task to run same distance with an hour to spare on a single match.
God and evil are just handy ways of labeling what we know but some can't articulate. For "God" read "explanations for stuff I don't understand" and for "Evil" read "disruptive or dysfunctional instincts to the detriment of the group".

bogbrush

Posts : 2409
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:52 am

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:I've been a genuine asthmatic all my life and that's not correct. Salbutamol provides short term relief unless your condition has become critical (happened once to me and I was hospitalised).
Well this is what I mean. I don't need to be asthmatic to see the impact it has on those affected. And I do not believe those who have strong asthma crisis can have a full sporting career. For some reasons those athletes never miss great sporting events...but for some reasons perform best at will!

It's only a reliever and not a proper way of controlling your condition but the one I use to achieve that has, I think, got some steroid involvement so I assume you'd frown on that.
Well even Salbutamol has some steroid effect apparently. And it's of course a reliever for those who have asthma but also an enhancer for those who haven't. Cause otherwise you would not have a greater list of sudden asthmatics in sport.

Asthma treatment restores the individual to the condition they normally are (if you're puffing the Salbutamol more than a couple of times a day your condition needs attention). For the great majority of the day you are like a normal person and the medicine brings you back. That's quite different from blades as the disabled runner never has legs.
The only difference is that one help is physic, the other is physiologic.

And if Salbutamol was not helping there woudl be no need to limit the dosage. The dosage is there to help those with "asthma" increase their blood flow. SO anyone who can have a doctor signing for asthma treatment will benefit from Salbutamol. It is as simple as that. And this is the very reason why you have so many asthmatic athletes in the UK and you don't have nearly as many in other countries and this is also why you have GB doing better than China at the Olympics.

gullible or biased you choose.
No, you missed the point. I'm saying that asthma is a very broad condition ranging all the way from hospitalisation to discomfort. Obviously those at the more chronic end of the scale have no chance.

Regarding your last line, you directing that at me?

bogbrush

Posts : 2409
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:57 am

legendkillar wrote:Froome should still get a ban. Harsh, but he still produced a positive test. Problem is where do you stop if you don't issue bans because of negligence?

The thing is if he was unwell and required increased doses that pushed beyond the permissible levels, don't compete. It's like with an injury. If you are not fit enough to participate, don't.

UCI and WADA would make an even bigger rod for their own backs if they a lenient. Takes accountability away from the athlete.
It’s very unlikely, with the benefit of the Sky medical team, that Froome negligently overdosed. The options are either that he took it in line with the rules (as he says) but returned an adverse finding anyway or he deliberately took well over the usual amount, knowing he would be tested the next day. 

I agree though - it will be very difficult for Froome to prove his case and so he probably will get a ban.

Slippy

Posts : 408
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:01 am

noleisthebest wrote:Just pretend/imagine Froome is Russian or Chinese...
Then we would be having the same debate - why would a Chinese or Russian cyclist have deliberately taken twice the legal level of something which has questionable PE qualities, knowing they would be tested and caught the next day?

The only difference would be that Tenez would be informing us that the adverse result was all the result of Western persecution, rather than his anti GB stance.

Slippy

Posts : 408
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:18 am

Slippy wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Just pretend/imagine Froome is Russian or Chinese...
Then we would be having the same debate - why would a Chinese or Russian cyclist have deliberately taken twice the legal level of something which has questionable PE qualities, knowing they would be tested and caught the next day?

The only difference would be that Tenez would be informing us that the adverse result was all the result of Western persecution, rather than his anti GB stance.

Let’s cross that bridge when Froome or Woggins actually get banned and stripped of their titles.
Or when teams GB and US etc get stigmatised and almost collectively banned from Olympics.

In the meantime it’s the east Europeans that are getting banned.

Sharapova for taking medicine which was allowed previously and banned shortly before she tested positive (a drug widely used by east europeans)
Troicki (for taking a test day late and testing negative - one year ban, not being allowed even to watch Serbia’s DC match live)
Cilic (Croatian, catholic, hence a considerably a more lenient 3 month ban, despite him testing positive)

and so in and so on....


Last edited by noleisthebest on Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:19 am

Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Froome should still get a ban. Harsh, but he still produced a positive test. Problem is where do you stop if you don't issue bans because of negligence?

The thing is if he was unwell and required increased doses that pushed beyond the permissible levels, don't compete. It's like with an injury. If you are not fit enough to participate, don't.

UCI and WADA would make an even bigger rod for their own backs if they a lenient. Takes accountability away from the athlete.
It’s very unlikely, with the benefit of the Sky medical team, that Froome negligently overdosed. The options are either that he took it in line with the rules (as he says) but returned an adverse finding anyway or he deliberately took well over the usual amount, knowing he would be tested the next day. 

I agree though - it will be very difficult for Froome to prove his case and so he probably will get a ban.

You seem to have a lot of trust in Team Sky! If he was unwell and required increases in doses, any doctor with an ounce of sense would highlight the risk of going above the permissible levels. That is negligent. Froome would also know that it was a risk too.

It smacks of a calculated gamble which hasn't paid off. Regardless if he knew he was being tested. Logic tells you if you know you are being tested, you wouldn't risk increasing the dose of a banned substance!!

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:56 am

Like all drugs it must wear off. Does the timing of consumption affect the concentration of result?

bogbrush

Posts : 2409
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:24 am

legendkillar wrote:
Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Froome should still get a ban. Harsh, but he still produced a positive test. Problem is where do you stop if you don't issue bans because of negligence?

The thing is if he was unwell and required increased doses that pushed beyond the permissible levels, don't compete. It's like with an injury. If you are not fit enough to participate, don't.

UCI and WADA would make an even bigger rod for their own backs if they a lenient. Takes accountability away from the athlete.
It’s very unlikely, with the benefit of the Sky medical team, that Froome negligently overdosed. The options are either that he took it in line with the rules (as he says) but returned an adverse finding anyway or he deliberately took well over the usual amount, knowing he would be tested the next day. 

I agree though - it will be very difficult for Froome to prove his case and so he probably will get a ban.

You seem to have a lot of trust in Team Sky! If he was unwell and required increases in doses, any doctor with an ounce of sense would highlight the risk of going above the permissible levels. That is negligent. Froome would also know that it was a risk too.

It smacks of a calculated gamble which hasn't paid off. Regardless if he knew he was being tested. Logic tells you if you know you are being tested, you wouldn't risk increasing the dose of a banned substance!!
But his case is that he didn’t go above the permissible levels! He says that he increased from the usual amount he takes (presumably well below the maximum allowed) but still was within the permissible levels. It’s also not a banned substance - provided you don’t take more than the allowed dosage. If he was able to somehow prove he had done so, then the blood test would be deemed an anomaly and he wouldn’t face any ban.

Slippy

Posts : 408
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:20 am

Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Froome should still get a ban. Harsh, but he still produced a positive test. Problem is where do you stop if you don't issue bans because of negligence?

The thing is if he was unwell and required increased doses that pushed beyond the permissible levels, don't compete. It's like with an injury. If you are not fit enough to participate, don't.

UCI and WADA would make an even bigger rod for their own backs if they a lenient. Takes accountability away from the athlete.
It’s very unlikely, with the benefit of the Sky medical team, that Froome negligently overdosed. The options are either that he took it in line with the rules (as he says) but returned an adverse finding anyway or he deliberately took well over the usual amount, knowing he would be tested the next day. 

I agree though - it will be very difficult for Froome to prove his case and so he probably will get a ban.

You seem to have a lot of trust in Team Sky! If he was unwell and required increases in doses, any doctor with an ounce of sense would highlight the risk of going above the permissible levels. That is negligent. Froome would also know that it was a risk too.

It smacks of a calculated gamble which hasn't paid off. Regardless if he knew he was being tested. Logic tells you if you know you are being tested, you wouldn't risk increasing the dose of a banned substance!!
But his case is that he didn’t go above the permissible levels! He says that he increased from the usual amount he takes (presumably well below the maximum allowed) but still was within the permissible levels. It’s also not a banned substance - provided you don’t take more than the allowed dosage. If he was able to somehow prove he had done so, then the blood test would be deemed an anomaly and he wouldn’t face any ban.

Eh? He failed a test!! So he clearly did go above the permissible levels.

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:24 am

bogbrush wrote:Like all drugs it must wear off. Does the timing of consumption affect the concentration of result?


With all drugs it does, however it also depends on the "signature" as they call it which is left behind and it's level of potency. Usually a rule of thumb is 8 hours for concentration levels to decrease.

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:54 am

Slippy wrote:
But his case is that he didn’t go above the permissible levels! He says that he increased from the usual amount he takes (presumably well below the maximum allowed) but still was within the permissible levels. It’s also not a banned substance - provided you don’t take more than the allowed dosage. If he was able to somehow prove he had done so, then the blood test would be deemed an anomaly and he wouldn’t face any ban.
Hehe what a propension to believe his heros and then throw the stone at Sharapova. You are so biased it's a joke.

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:24 pm

Some Gems from Slippy on the Sharapova case...I just replaced her name and events by Froome and his events so we can all see how "the law of relativity" is not always applied......to say it mildly:

"Disappointing that the TDF has given "him" a wildcard.  Would have been good if the tours had given a consistent message that main draw wild cards aren't given out to players returning from drugs bans."

"I'm surprised you think the TDF is more likely to grant a wildcard Veejay. La Vuelta needs "Froome" a lot less than the TDF would do and the "Brits are generally pretty harsh on players convicted of drugs violations" Laugh . I'd expect Him to get one for TDF but I'd say her prospects are much lower for La Vuelta."

"Love Andy's comments by the way. Froome will surely he pushing for direct entry to the main draw and his response is all about a qualifying wildcard. He makes it sound like a direct entry just isn't an option."


"One accepted He took Salbutamol twice above the limit, the other one didn't. Not difficult to explain. "(how funny how Slippy tries to explain the ins and outs of Froome's case)

"The real point to note there is that Lepchenko, presumably without the benefit of a large support team, was able to realise it was on the banned list. Perhaps Froome could stop trying to blame everyone else for his failure to read the amendments to the prescriptions?"

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:00 pm

legendkillar wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Like all drugs it must wear off. Does the timing of consumption affect the concentration of result?


With all drugs it does, however it also depends on the "signature" as they call it which is left behind and it's level of potency. Usually a rule of thumb is 8 hours for concentration levels to decrease.
Yeah, so if he took a puff close to the test or one 8 hours previously would that not mess things up? I thought PED testing was usually about finding stuff that straight out shouldn't be there but doesn't this complicate matters or are they able to match level against time and somehow track back to what he took in?

bogbrush

Posts : 2409
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:03 pm

Tenez wrote:Who was ever in doubt about Froome?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/42335916

I am sorry to say gents but there are a growing list of suspicious top GB athletes. Maybe GB should be banned from the Olympics with the Russians.

Don't be dorky Tenez.  

I'd be the first to accept that merely being British does not make an individual athlete more likely to be clean than an athlete taken at random from any other country; I also accept that our media covers this sort of thing differently for British athletes in a way that can border on nausea-inducing.  However, that's a world apart from state-sponsored doping unearthed in the case of Russia; and even in your obvious delight at Froome's disaster you surely have the ability to accept that?

It's always necessary to be wary about cyclists - that said I have been on the side of thinking Froome is probably one of the clean ones.  I'll await what transpires with interest here - Sky's great selling point has been attention to detail and marginal gains, so the precise explanation for how this happened will be very important, as will an ability to back it up with independent corroboration which will no doubt be taxing Sky's finest as we speak.  Precedents for other riders and salbutamol suggests that it's likely to be held to be an offence which results in a ban and the removal of the Vuelta title.  We'll see - I rather liked the insights in this post https://sportsscientists.com/2017/12/brief-thoughts-froomes-salbutamol-result/.

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:15 pm

bogbrush wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Like all drugs it must wear off. Does the timing of consumption affect the concentration of result?


With all drugs it does, however it also depends on the "signature" as they call it which is left behind and it's level of potency. Usually a rule of thumb is 8 hours for concentration levels to decrease.
Yeah, so if he took a puff close to the test or one 8 hours previously would that not mess things up? I thought PED testing was usually about finding stuff that straight out shouldn't be there but doesn't this complicate matters or are they able to match level against time and somehow track back to what he took in?


I don't know exactly the testing protocol. If I take in example what they would do say for testing police for example, they use tests that detect a substances signature as it were. So even if you smoked weed say a week go, they would be able trace the residual remains.

In terms of this, depending how many 'puffs' he had up until the test, it would be unknown how much his levels were up by at that time (topping up on existing levels). I would be astonished if it were just an accumulation over one day. So if he wasn't a daily puffer, chances are he may well have become one during this period in which he was unwell. The permissible levels for Salbutamol according to WADA is no more than 1600 mg over a 24 hour period. If I recall my BNF days, there is 100mg per puff off a Salbutamol inhaler. 200mg for intense sufferers. I am led to believe he was twice over the permissible level, so that's 3200mg!!! Which would equate to 32 puffs!! I am no doctor, but I can't see this being adverse!

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:48 pm

barrystar wrote:
Don't be dorky Tenez.  

I'd be the first to accept that merely being British does not make an individual athlete more likely to be clean than an athlete taken at random from any other country; I also accept that our media covers this sort of thing differently for British athletes in a way that can border on nausea-inducing.  However, that's a world apart from state-sponsored doping unearthed in the case of Russia; and even in your obvious delight at Froome's disaster you surely have the ability to accept that?
I totally disagree with that. I am neither Russian nor British....so I do not have any interest to support or discredit either. If anything I feel much closer in my way of life (and thinking) to the Brits than the Russians. I am just stunned how, and you may have not followed previous OPs,  the media here are so biased when it comes to Russia that even yourself think GB atheltes are whiter than white or at least whiter than the Russian when everything, and I insist, everything tends to show the contrary. GB is the new RDA. It  outperforms everybody when it comes to stamina. You even produce more gold medals than the so called doping sponsor states China and Russian in spite of being a fraction of the number athletes. And I am surprised than having 30% of the Sky team and 70% of GB swimmers as asthmatic doesn't make you doubt about the integrity of British athletes.?!?!So in summary GB athletes are cleaner, yet win more medals than 2 state sponsored nations? C'mon Barry!

Just imagine what the Russian and the Chinese must be thinking about GB athletes and their asthma and TUEs....

And to make it clear, I am even more virulent about the French media and their way of handling politics in our countries. However sport wise, the French were bloody cheaters in the 90s (probably no more than the rest though) but the French  anti doping authorities in France have been chasing and testing extremely intensely our athletes in order not to repeat 90s TDF scandals....and it shows in their results.


Last edited by Tenez on Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:00 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Froome should still get a ban. Harsh, but he still produced a positive test. Problem is where do you stop if you don't issue bans because of negligence?

The thing is if he was unwell and required increased doses that pushed beyond the permissible levels, don't compete. It's like with an injury. If you are not fit enough to participate, don't.

UCI and WADA would make an even bigger rod for their own backs if they a lenient. Takes accountability away from the athlete.
It’s very unlikely, with the benefit of the Sky medical team, that Froome negligently overdosed. The options are either that he took it in line with the rules (as he says) but returned an adverse finding anyway or he deliberately took well over the usual amount, knowing he would be tested the next day. 

I agree though - it will be very difficult for Froome to prove his case and so he probably will get a ban.

You seem to have a lot of trust in Team Sky! If he was unwell and required increases in doses, any doctor with an ounce of sense would highlight the risk of going above the permissible levels. That is negligent. Froome would also know that it was a risk too.

It smacks of a calculated gamble which hasn't paid off. Regardless if he knew he was being tested. Logic tells you if you know you are being tested, you wouldn't risk increasing the dose of a banned substance!!
But his case is that he didn’t go above the permissible levels! He says that he increased from the usual amount he takes (presumably well below the maximum allowed) but still was within the permissible levels. It’s also not a banned substance - provided you don’t take more than the allowed dosage. If he was able to somehow prove he had done so, then the blood test would be deemed an anomaly and he wouldn’t face any ban.

Eh? He failed a test!! So he clearly did go above the permissible levels.
As i understand it, there is an amount of salbutamol you are allowed to take (presumably a number of puffs per day effectively). If you could somehow prove that was all you took then the test results would be seen as an anomaly. Apologies- that’s just my understanding from various articles - it probably is simplistic. However, effectively Froome’s case is that he only took the permitted amount and that the test result is an anomaly. Basically, I think he’s stuffed and will get a ban but we will see!

Slippy

Posts : 408
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:09 pm

Tenez - my stance on Sharapova is not inconsistent with that on Froome. They are completely different situations. Nice try though!

Slippy

Posts : 408
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:33 pm

Slippy wrote:Tenez - my stance on Sharapova is not inconsistent with that on Froome. They are completely different situations. Nice try though!

Yes they are completely different situations and you wish Froome made the stupid mistake to take a drug which had just been banned and was genuinely not aware of it. Unfortunately he has been caught with a PED perfectly knowing it was a PED at that level.

But for some reasons you don't have the right approach to those cases. I wonder, whether being biased may be the reason?

Tenez

Posts : 19414
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:47 pm

Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Froome should still get a ban. Harsh, but he still produced a positive test. Problem is where do you stop if you don't issue bans because of negligence?

The thing is if he was unwell and required increased doses that pushed beyond the permissible levels, don't compete. It's like with an injury. If you are not fit enough to participate, don't.

UCI and WADA would make an even bigger rod for their own backs if they a lenient. Takes accountability away from the athlete.
It’s very unlikely, with the benefit of the Sky medical team, that Froome negligently overdosed. The options are either that he took it in line with the rules (as he says) but returned an adverse finding anyway or he deliberately took well over the usual amount, knowing he would be tested the next day. 

I agree though - it will be very difficult for Froome to prove his case and so he probably will get a ban.

You seem to have a lot of trust in Team Sky! If he was unwell and required increases in doses, any doctor with an ounce of sense would highlight the risk of going above the permissible levels. That is negligent. Froome would also know that it was a risk too.

It smacks of a calculated gamble which hasn't paid off. Regardless if he knew he was being tested. Logic tells you if you know you are being tested, you wouldn't risk increasing the dose of a banned substance!!
But his case is that he didn’t go above the permissible levels! He says that he increased from the usual amount he takes (presumably well below the maximum allowed) but still was within the permissible levels. It’s also not a banned substance - provided you don’t take more than the allowed dosage. If he was able to somehow prove he had done so, then the blood test would be deemed an anomaly and he wouldn’t face any ban.

Eh? He failed a test!! So he clearly did go above the permissible levels.
As i understand it, there is an amount of salbutamol you are allowed to take (presumably a number of puffs per day effectively). If you could somehow prove that was all you took then the test results would be seen as an anomaly. Apologies- that’s just my understanding from various articles - it probably is simplistic. However, effectively Froome’s case is that he only took the permitted amount and that the test result is an anomaly. Basically, I think he’s stuffed and will get a ban but we will see!


There is and I referenced it in my post to BB.

I would imagine if they felt there was an anomaly, they would've asked for the same sample to be tested again. Now I haven't heard either, whether they have or haven't.

The permitted amount is 1600mg. His results are double that amount I believe. If it was by 50-100mg, an anomaly might be most likely, but we are talking double the amount! The only excuse I believe he could come out with to defend that was using the wrong inhaler.

The one thing we can agree on is, he is stuffed!

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:42 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Froome should still get a ban. Harsh, but he still produced a positive test. Problem is where do you stop if you don't issue bans because of negligence?

The thing is if he was unwell and required increased doses that pushed beyond the permissible levels, don't compete. It's like with an injury. If you are not fit enough to participate, don't.

UCI and WADA would make an even bigger rod for their own backs if they a lenient. Takes accountability away from the athlete.
It’s very unlikely, with the benefit of the Sky medical team, that Froome negligently overdosed. The options are either that he took it in line with the rules (as he says) but returned an adverse finding anyway or he deliberately took well over the usual amount, knowing he would be tested the next day. 

I agree though - it will be very difficult for Froome to prove his case and so he probably will get a ban.

You seem to have a lot of trust in Team Sky! If he was unwell and required increases in doses, any doctor with an ounce of sense would highlight the risk of going above the permissible levels. That is negligent. Froome would also know that it was a risk too.

It smacks of a calculated gamble which hasn't paid off. Regardless if he knew he was being tested. Logic tells you if you know you are being tested, you wouldn't risk increasing the dose of a banned substance!!
But his case is that he didn’t go above the permissible levels! He says that he increased from the usual amount he takes (presumably well below the maximum allowed) but still was within the permissible levels. It’s also not a banned substance - provided you don’t take more than the allowed dosage. If he was able to somehow prove he had done so, then the blood test would be deemed an anomaly and he wouldn’t face any ban.

Eh? He failed a test!! So he clearly did go above the permissible levels.
As i understand it, there is an amount of salbutamol you are allowed to take (presumably a number of puffs per day effectively). If you could somehow prove that was all you took then the test results would be seen as an anomaly. Apologies- that’s just my understanding from various articles - it probably is simplistic. However, effectively Froome’s case is that he only took the permitted amount and that the test result is an anomaly. Basically, I think he’s stuffed and will get a ban but we will see!


There is and I referenced it in my post to BB.

I would imagine if they felt there was an anomaly, they would've asked for the same sample to be tested again. Now I haven't heard either, whether they have or haven't.

The permitted amount is 1600mg. His results are double that amount I believe. If it was by 50-100mg, an anomaly might be most likely, but we are talking double the amount! The only excuse I believe he could come out with to defend that was using the wrong inhaler.

The one thing we can agree on is, he is stuffed

I think Froome is probably stuffed, but the way the rule works is more complex than you say.  The is a limit on the amount of the stuff that can be found in your Urine - 1000ng/ml, and Froome apparently had 2000ng/ml.  In order to stay under the limit, WADA recommend not exceeding an input via inhaler of 1600mcg for every 24hrs.  This blog explains it in a bit more detail https://sportsscientists.com/2017/12/brief-thoughts-froomes-salbutamol-result/ The blog points out that inhaler input does not translate directly to urine levels in a linear fashion - it will differ for different people in different circumstances, but you would expect that Froome and his Doctor would have a pretty good idea of how it works for him.  Yuu'd expect them to have built up a fairly detailed picture - like a blood passport if you like.

As the blog says, Froome's was a big miss.  The blog also says that someone's 'resting' level of the stuff in the urine might be very important - if it is low, say 200ng/ml, then a reading of x10 resting would be more difficult to explain than if it were higher.  The blog anticipates what Froome's line of defence might be and also points out that if this sort of thing was very difficult to get right we'd have experienced a lot of adverse results, which it seems we have not.  The blog looks at some of the points raised on here of whether the stuff is performance enhancing, or whether the rule is a fair one, but reading between the lines he thinks Froome is up against it and he's surprised that the urine level is so high - the "final thoughts" section is... interesting.

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Tenez wrote:
barrystar wrote:
Don't be dorky Tenez.  

I'd be the first to accept that merely being British does not make an individual athlete more likely to be clean than an athlete taken at random from any other country; I also accept that our media covers this sort of thing differently for British athletes in a way that can border on nausea-inducing.  However, that's a world apart from state-sponsored doping unearthed in the case of Russia; and even in your obvious delight at Froome's disaster you surely have the ability to accept that?
I totally disagree with that. I am neither Russian nor British....so I do not have any interest to support or discredit either. If anything I feel much closer in my way of life (and thinking) to the Brits than the Russians. I am just stunned how, and you may have not followed previous OPs,  the media here are so biased when it comes to Russia that even yourself think GB atheltes are whiter than white or at least whiter than the Russian when everything, and I insist, everything tends to show the contrary. GB is the new RDA. It  outperforms everybody when it comes to stamina. You even produce more gold medals than the so called doping sponsor states China and Russian in spite of being a fraction of the number athletes. And I am surprised than having 30% of the Sky team and 70% of GB swimmers as asthmatic doesn't make you doubt about the integrity of British athletes.?!?!So in summary GB athletes are cleaner, yet win more medals than 2 state sponsored nations? C'mon Barry!

Just imagine what the Russian and the Chinese must be thinking about GB athletes and their asthma and TUEs....

And to make it clear, I am even more virulent about the French media and their way of handling politics in our countries. However sport wise, the French were bloody cheaters in the 90s (probably no more than the rest though) but the French  anti doping authorities in France have been chasing and testing extremely intensely our athletes in order not to repeat 90s TDF scandals....and it shows in their results.

I implicitly acknowledged that I don't believe British athletes are whiter than white.  I entirely accept that the GB Swimming and Cycling teams may have decided to push the TUE rules as part of their marginal gains in the chase for Government funding - I would regard that as unethical and unsportsmanlike, cheating if you like, even if it is within the letter of the law.  I think that Sky has almost completely lost its credibility - and there are plenty of UK journalists who have chased the story about the package hard, and are prepared to express doubts and criticise Sky  (David Walsh and Marina Hyde are just two good examples off the top of my head).  It has also recently been reported that there are serious worries about how athletes are assigned to categories or selected for Team GB in relation to UK Paralympic sport (where the pressure for funding is probably even greater).  So, whilst much of the UK press, and sometimes the BBC, act like cheerleaders who give our 'heroes' a soft ride, there are plenty of decent UK journalists and others who regularly express their doubts, even disdain, whose views get regular coverage in the mainstream press, and who need not fear for their livelihoods let alone their lives as a result.

The UK position is not satisfactory (I did not say that it is), but it is a world apart from using state security services to tamper with and switch samples of 00's or 000's of athletes to hide planned PED use, or where skeptical scientists, whistleblowers, and journalists who are brave enough to raise this dying in suspicious circumstances or living in hiding fearing for their lives - let alone their livelihoods.

You ask what the Russians and Chinese think - I imagine that the Russians think we are slightly hypocritical, but naive amateurs at cheating.  I have no idea what the Chinese think.  To alter Jesus's analogy in Matthew 7:3 a little, whilst there is a definitely a mote in our eye, we have correctly noticed a huge beam in the Russian state's eye and whilst there is room for improvement in the way we look at ourselves, we are certainly entitled to point out the problems with Russia.  And with Russia, the media are mostly reporting on WADA's own report.

I'd say that only in a world of baseless hyperbole is it possible not to see the difference.

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Daniel on Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:32 pm

When Athletes who dope start going to jail, we'll get somewhere.  Until then, this is all poppycock.

Daniel

Posts : 3614
Join date : 2013-11-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:43 pm

Thanks Barry - that was the distinction I was trying and failing to explain without finding an appropriate article.

Slippy

Posts : 408
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:37 pm

Daniel wrote:When Athletes who dope start going to jail, we'll get somewhere.  Until then, this is all poppycock.

I totally disagree.  The main reason is that we, the taxpayer, end up funding the failure of professional sports to sort out their own credibility.  Sport is really an offshoot of the entertainment industry, and a lack of integrity should be their cost and concern, not ours - because ultimately the losers are the athletes and the sports who don't get income from a sceptical public.  

If we truly care, the best way we can stop doping is to stop watching, stop buying products the sportsmen and women endorse, and to let advertisers know that they are a turn-off.  Much better that we take responsibility via decisions we make about our commercial and leisure time than taxes and resources of a hard-pressed state.  

Furthermore, some of these issues are technical and difficult, so the trials would be long and expensive, and Juries are far more likely to acquit in a technical trial than a specialist tribunal like CAS, especially if the suggestion can be made that the doping rules are harsh and unfair and difficult to comply with.

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 18 of 22 Previous  1 ... 10 ... 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum