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The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:06 pm

Veejay wrote:.....
while I would think that athletes in the u.k ( as an example) are very likely to be protected,or a massive cover up by the government with a far greater chance to get away with it because they are on the right side of things,i don't think its the same as state sponsored doping
It is exactly State sponsored doping too. If the governement is financing sports and is covering then it is state doping. I am not sure why you cannot see it. No different than Spain's law defending its athletes and allowing the destruction of blood samples of 200 athletes. You are playing with words but the result is the same. State supported doping programs.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:37 pm

Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:.....
while I would think that athletes in the u.k ( as an example) are very likely to be protected,or a massive cover up by the government with a far greater chance to get away with it because they are on the right side of things,i don't think its the same as state sponsored doping
It is exactly State sponsored doping too. If the governement is financing sports and is covering then it is state doping. I am not sure why you cannot see it. No different than Spain's law defending its athletes and allowing the destruction of blood samples of 200 athletes. You are playing with words but the result is the same. State supported doping programs.
both are crimes in my opinion but the word sponsored doesnt = cover up to me 
1 is just covering up...the other is sponsoring and covering up at the same time

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:58 am

Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:.....
while I would think that athletes in the u.k ( as an example) are very likely to be protected,or a massive cover up by the government with a far greater chance to get away with it because they are on the right side of things,i don't think its the same as state sponsored doping
It is exactly State sponsored doping too. If the governement is financing sports and is covering then it is state doping. I am not sure why you cannot see it. No different than Spain's law defending its athletes and allowing the destruction of blood samples of 200 athletes. You are playing with words but the result is the same. State supported doping programs.

It would be very daft of the UK government especially if they are funding doping given that any recorded document is in the public domain with a swift FOI put in.

If you really want to engage those conspiracy juices I can line this one up. The emergence of Sport England and Lottery funding which by definition spend activities do not have to be disclosed. Winking

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:24 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:.....
while I would think that athletes in the u.k ( as an example) are very likely to be protected,or a massive cover up by the government with a far greater chance to get away with it because they are on the right side of things,i don't think its the same as state sponsored doping
It is exactly State sponsored doping too. If the governement is financing sports and is covering then it is state doping. I am not sure why you cannot see it. No different than Spain's law defending its athletes and allowing the destruction of blood samples of 200 athletes. You are playing with words but the result is the same. State supported doping programs.

It would be very daft of the UK government especially if they are funding doping given that any recorded document is in the public domain with a swift FOI put in.

If you really want to engage those conspiracy juices I can line this one up. The emergence of Sport England and Lottery funding which by definition spend activities do not have to be disclosed. Winking

It's done in a smarter way. No gov is going to expose themselves like that. The govs, like in Spain, are not financing doping but they intently turn a blind eye to the issue.....even if they make sure that WADA and other agencies do their job.

It's done smartly. NO different than the UCL or other sport organisations which got bust but govs have a few more protecting layers.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:26 pm

And it's not conspiracy cause it's been exposed in Spain, Russia, Jamaic and I am sure all other countries do.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:41 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:.....
while I would think that athletes in the u.k ( as an example) are very likely to be protected,or a massive cover up by the government with a far greater chance to get away with it because they are on the right side of things,i don't think its the same as state sponsored doping
It is exactly State sponsored doping too. If the governement is financing sports and is covering then it is state doping. I am not sure why you cannot see it. No different than Spain's law defending its athletes and allowing the destruction of blood samples of 200 athletes. You are playing with words but the result is the same. State supported doping programs.

It would be very daft of the UK government especially if they are funding doping given that any recorded document is in the public domain with a swift FOI put in.

If you really want to engage those conspiracy juices I can line this one up. The emergence of Sport England and Lottery funding which by definition spend activities do not have to be disclosed. Winking

It's done in a smarter way. No gov is going to expose themselves like that. The govs, like in Spain, are not financing doping but they intently turn a blind eye to the issue.....even if they make sure that WADA and other agencies do their job.

It's done smartly. NO different than the UCL or other sport organisations which got bust but govs have a few more protecting layers.


What would be the smarter way? Thing is about government money and especially in the UK it is absolutely transparent on how it is spent. Even with organisations that are not government owned or run still have to be transparent on how that money is spent.

Now by all accounts these government bodies could easily not disclose certain transactions or areas of spend, however if it is documented in any way electronically they run the risk of an FOI request.

Other EU countries I am not aware have similar laws to the UK in data transparency.

When you talk about "state doping" you need to look at it from a economic perspective. Especially in the UK. From now until the next summer Olympics the total budget for all sports is £345M. It's unclear from their website how much is Lottery Funded, but in a time when the country is facing austerity measures and the increasing rate in which lower league football teams are asking Local Authorities for loans, I would wager that the government see more value in bailing out football teams than doping for events that will not provide any immediate return on investment.

I am not saying it's not going on, what I am saying it's not all coming from the government coffers!

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by ... on Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:20 pm

Bottom line is, most GB & US medal winning athletes were doped.

But it's the Russians that are called baddies, so that the masses who are slaving in order to pay mortgages can feel good about themselves and have someone to point their whiter than white finger at.

Now that is what I call racism par excellance.

Please tell me you are not expecting BBC journalists to expose dopers in this country.
Who is then?

What happened to the scientist who said Saddam had no weapons of destruction?

I feel sick when I see ex soldiers collecting money for "our heroes" who fight in Afghanistan, Iraq....and if they really insist, I stop and tell them what I think about their "heroism" and what they did in my country.

They usually have not much to say after that.

I know this is not directly linked to doping topic, but behind it all is the same principle: might is right.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:22 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:.....
while I would think that athletes in the u.k ( as an example) are very likely to be protected,or a massive cover up by the government with a far greater chance to get away with it because they are on the right side of things,i don't think its the same as state sponsored doping
It is exactly State sponsored doping too. If the governement is financing sports and is covering then it is state doping. I am not sure why you cannot see it. No different than Spain's law defending its athletes and allowing the destruction of blood samples of 200 athletes. You are playing with words but the result is the same. State supported doping programs.

It would be very daft of the UK government especially if they are funding doping given that any recorded document is in the public domain with a swift FOI put in.

If you really want to engage those conspiracy juices I can line this one up. The emergence of Sport England and Lottery funding which by definition spend activities do not have to be disclosed. Winking

It's done in a smarter way. No gov is going to expose themselves like that. The govs, like in Spain, are not financing doping but they intently turn a blind eye to the issue.....even if they make sure that WADA and other agencies do their job.

It's done smartly. NO different than the UCL or other sport organisations which got bust but govs have a few more protecting layers.


What would be the smarter way? Thing is about government money and especially in the UK it is absolutely transparent on how it is spent. Even with organisations that are not government owned or run still have to be transparent on how that money is spent.

Now by all accounts these government bodies could easily not disclose certain transactions or areas of spend, however if it is documented in any way electronically they run the risk of an FOI request.

Other EU countries I am not aware have similar laws to the UK in data transparency.

When you talk about "state doping" you need to look at it from a economic perspective. Especially in the UK. From now until the next summer Olympics the total budget for all sports is £345M. It's unclear from their website how much is Lottery Funded, but in a time when the country is facing austerity measures and the increasing rate in which lower league football teams are asking Local Authorities for loans, I would wager that the government see more value in bailing out football teams than doping for events that will not provide any immediate return on investment.

I am not saying it's not going on, what I am saying it's not all coming from the government coffers!
im still not convinced that doping in this country goes as far as government involved.sure the athletes are being sponsored and funded by the national lottery but i think the majority of dopers are doing it privately with money that is funded to them 
i think the corrupt side of government involvement is perhaps trying to cover for an athlete and allowing them to compete under very suspicious circumstances  i.e lizzie armistead

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:27 pm

NITB wrote:Bottom line is, most GB & US medal winning athletes were doped.

But it's the Russians that are called baddies, so that the masses who are slaving in order to pay mortgages can feel good about themselves and have someone to point their whiter than white finger at.

Now that is what I call racism par excellance.

Please tell me you are not expecting BBC journalists to expose dopers in this country.
Who is then?

What happened to the scientist who said Saddam had no weapons of destruction?

I feel sick when I see ex soldiers collecting money for "our heroes" who fight in Afghanistan, Iraq....and if they really insist, I stop and tell them what I think about their "heroism" and what they did in my country.

They usually have not much to say after that.

I know this is not directly linked to doping topic, but behind it all is the same principle: might is right.
as i pointed out before,WADA paid no attention to the whistleblowers,it was not until the video footage was aired on a german tv that basically forced them to take action
had the whistleblowers not exposed the scandal o german tv the russians would most likely still be carrying on with their state sponsored doping 
if there was hypotheticlly a similar program in the u.k that was exposed by whistleblowers and WADA were in a similar position where they had to act,would you still call it racism if the british athletes were banned from competing?

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by ... on Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:33 pm

Of course I would.

Can't you see it's never going to happen? Why is that?
And does it not frustrate you?

Or is it enough for you that Sharapova is caught and Serena is not and never will but not because she is clean.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:17 pm

sharapova dug her own grave,if she had just shut up she most likely would have gotten away with it like many other athletes who claimed ignorance.once she claimed ignorance she got off and the balme was placed elsewhere 
i have no sympathy for her case because shes been proven to be a liar of epic proportions 
did you miss the part where i said that if i ever had evidence of serena doping,that i would expose her? ..you should go back and read it again,its in a few post above
this wouldnt even be an issue if serena was russian,youd be saying how unfair it is that serena got caught while everyone else is getting away with it

so if the british athletes we banned from competing,who would it be racist against? or why would it be racist to ban them not because of doping but because of race? 
to answer your question,prior to the state sponsored doping scandal being exposed,i would have said that a scandal like that would never have been exposed anywhere in any country,but yet it was so what makes you think that it will never happen?
is it just because they are russian?
didnt russians blow the lid on their own doping scandal,so what makes you think athletes from other countries wouldnt do the same?
what makes you so sure that it will never happen when it just happened
youre making out like this is a personal attack on russia when russian athletes exposed the scandal and wada didnt even bother to take notice until they were forced to

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:44 am

Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:.....
while I would think that athletes in the u.k ( as an example) are very likely to be protected,or a massive cover up by the government with a far greater chance to get away with it because they are on the right side of things,i don't think its the same as state sponsored doping
It is exactly State sponsored doping too. If the governement is financing sports and is covering then it is state doping. I am not sure why you cannot see it. No different than Spain's law defending its athletes and allowing the destruction of blood samples of 200 athletes. You are playing with words but the result is the same. State supported doping programs.

It would be very daft of the UK government especially if they are funding doping given that any recorded document is in the public domain with a swift FOI put in.

If you really want to engage those conspiracy juices I can line this one up. The emergence of Sport England and Lottery funding which by definition spend activities do not have to be disclosed. Winking

It's done in a smarter way. No gov is going to expose themselves like that. The govs, like in Spain, are not financing doping but they intently turn a blind eye to the issue.....even if they make sure that WADA and other agencies do their job.

It's done smartly. NO different than the UCL or other sport organisations which got bust but govs have a few more protecting layers.


What would be the smarter way? Thing is about government money and especially in the UK it is absolutely transparent on how it is spent. Even with organisations that are not government owned or run still have to be transparent on how that money is spent.

Now by all accounts these government bodies could easily not disclose certain transactions or areas of spend, however if it is documented in any way electronically they run the risk of an FOI request.

Other EU countries I am not aware have similar laws to the UK in data transparency.

When you talk about "state doping" you need to look at it from a economic perspective. Especially in the UK. From now until the next summer Olympics the total budget for all sports is £345M. It's unclear from their website how much is Lottery Funded, but in a time when the country is facing austerity measures and the increasing rate in which lower league football teams are asking Local Authorities for loans, I would wager that the government see more value in bailing out football teams than doping for events that will not provide any immediate return on investment.

I am not saying it's not going on, what I am saying it's not all coming from the government coffers!
im still not convinced that doping in this country goes as far as government involved.sure the athletes are being sponsored and funded by the national lottery but i think the majority of dopers are doing it privately with money that is funded to them 
i think the corrupt side of government involvement is perhaps trying to cover for an athlete and allowing them to compete under very suspicious circumstances  i.e lizzie armistead

Again I don't see the benefit of the government defending its athletes should they face strong accusations of doping. In an age of political unrest, they don't need that level of involvement.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:06 am

neither do i,defending and covering a scandal up are 2 very different things in my opinion..
if an athlete is proven to be a doper then i seriously doubt that we will see a similar scenario where the athlete gets exonerated by the prime minister,like we have seen in spain with alberto contodor 
but if an athlete like murray were to fail a drugs test going into an intrnational event like the olympics,i could see the powers that be trying to cover that up to make sure that he gets to compete 
what do you make of the lizzie armistead case?
it seems to me like everything was being done to get her to rio so that she could compete ( under very very suspicious circumstances)

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:28 am

Armitstead was cleared by CAS - an independent global organisation. If the British government had sought to stop her competing, it would have been sued, she would have won and gone anyway. The government couldn't have done anything to stop her.

Overall, I agree with LK. I can't see a situation where the government becomes aware of a doping failure and covers it up. The reputation of any athlete isn't sufficient to deal with the risk if it ever became apparent the government had covered it up.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:37 am

Slippy wrote:Armitstead was cleared by CAS - an independent global organisation. If the British government had sought to stop her competing, it would have been sued, she would have won and gone anyway. The government couldn't have done anything to stop her.

Overall, I agree with LK. I can't see a situation where the government becomes aware of a doping failure and covers it up. The reputation of any athlete isn't sufficient to deal with the risk if it ever became apparent the government had covered it up.
cleared by cas like sharapova?  Laugh 
after sharapova's case im not convinced that any athlete who is cleared by CAS is 100% innocent but rather question the potential corruption behind clearing the athlete
im not saying that the british government would have sought to stop her from competing ,im saying the complete opposite 
it seems to me like a lot of strings were being pulled behind the scenes to get her there to compete cause she was a potential medal winner

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:43 am

Veejay wrote:neither do i,defending and covering a scandal up are 2 very different things in my opinion..
if an athlete is proven to be a doper then i seriously doubt that we will see a similar scenario where the athlete gets exonerated by the prime minister,like we have seen in spain with alberto contodor 
but if an athlete like murray were to fail a drugs test going into an intrnational event like the olympics,i could see the powers that be trying to cover that up to make sure that he gets to compete 
what do you make of the lizzie armistead case?
it seems to me like everything was being done to get her to rio so that she could compete ( under very very suspicious circumstances)

True defending and covering up are 2 different things, but given the culture of society today and Politics is a charisma game, I can't see that the government would want any of their bodies involved in covering up doping. Given historically that doping has been more associated with the Olympics, how many times do the general public look at a doping scandal and think "meh it's not in football so I'm not bothered" I know most on here care passionately about sport and it's athletes being clean, but to me the consensus no-one cares enough probably because it's the same sports and events being exposed time and time again and that to me has reinforced the don't give a fig brigade.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:53 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:neither do i,defending and covering a scandal up are 2 very different things in my opinion..
if an athlete is proven to be a doper then i seriously doubt that we will see a similar scenario where the athlete gets exonerated by the prime minister,like we have seen in spain with alberto contodor 
but if an athlete like murray were to fail a drugs test going into an intrnational event like the olympics,i could see the powers that be trying to cover that up to make sure that he gets to compete 
what do you make of the lizzie armistead case?
it seems to me like everything was being done to get her to rio so that she could compete ( under very very suspicious circumstances)

True defending and covering up are 2 different things, but given the culture of society today and Politics is a charisma game, I can't see that the government would want any of their bodies involved in covering up doping. Given historically that doping has been more associated with the Olympics, how many times do the general public look at a doping scandal and think "meh it's not in football so I'm not bothered" I know most on here care passionately about sport and it's athletes being clean, but to me the consensus no-one cares enough probably because it's the same sports and events being exposed time and time again and that to me has reinforced the don't give a fig brigade.
i think thats its more of a question of not wanting to be exposed in a cover up rather then not being involved in a cover up
just look at all the scandals our politicians get exposed for Yikes ... you cannot rule the possibility out

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:07 pm

Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:neither do i,defending and covering a scandal up are 2 very different things in my opinion..
if an athlete is proven to be a doper then i seriously doubt that we will see a similar scenario where the athlete gets exonerated by the prime minister,like we have seen in spain with alberto contodor 
but if an athlete like murray were to fail a drugs test going into an intrnational event like the olympics,i could see the powers that be trying to cover that up to make sure that he gets to compete 
what do you make of the lizzie armistead case?
it seems to me like everything was being done to get her to rio so that she could compete ( under very very suspicious circumstances)

True defending and covering up are 2 different things, but given the culture of society today and Politics is a charisma game, I can't see that the government would want any of their bodies involved in covering up doping. Given historically that doping has been more associated with the Olympics, how many times do the general public look at a doping scandal and think "meh it's not in football so I'm not bothered" I know most on here care passionately about sport and it's athletes being clean, but to me the consensus no-one cares enough probably because it's the same sports and events being exposed time and time again and that to me has reinforced the don't give a fig brigade.
i think thats its more of a question of not wanting to be exposed in a cover up rather then not being involved in a cover up
just look at all the scandals our politicians get exposed for Yikes ... you cannot rule the possibility out


I was meant to answer both points of your original post, but got caught up in a meeting.

In terms of Murray if he were doping and would there be great lengths gone to cover that up? He is a bit of a British sporting institute. I think you can only measure an athlete's influence by the take up levels in their respective sport, but also other areas they influence beyond sport. All of which is subjective.

I think in Murray's case I think it's fair to say he isn't one that is heavily involved in the sporting politics of this world and or even for that matter a sponsors wet dream. I think Murray invested in a hotel chain or starting one up in Scotland. So for me the strong message there is that he sees his business interests outside the sport and it's sponsors. You also have to factor in his frosty relationship with the LTA. He has on many occasions publicly criticised the LTA and it's existence. I can't see that they would move heaven and earth to protect him. Yes he plays Queens and Wimbledon, but not for love of the LTA.

For me too many factors would point to the opposite direction of the protectionism that might be afforded to Murray. If he is doping, he's doing it himself.

Now as for Lizzie Armistead. Isn't she the one who missed 3 tests? My view is that it is a massive failing of WADA. Should've been banned. Don't care who cleared her. Rio Ferdinand was banned for missing 1! Should be the same for all.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:48 pm

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/38663811

Wishing them a prompt recovery but why trying in Spain? ...like Murray did? In the past Athletes were training in altitude now they can create those extra red cells at ground 0.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:08 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:neither do i,defending and covering a scandal up are 2 very different things in my opinion..
if an athlete is proven to be a doper then i seriously doubt that we will see a similar scenario where the athlete gets exonerated by the prime minister,like we have seen in spain with alberto contodor 
but if an athlete like murray were to fail a drugs test going into an intrnational event like the olympics,i could see the powers that be trying to cover that up to make sure that he gets to compete 
what do you make of the lizzie armistead case?
it seems to me like everything was being done to get her to rio so that she could compete ( under very very suspicious circumstances)

True defending and covering up are 2 different things, but given the culture of society today and Politics is a charisma game, I can't see that the government would want any of their bodies involved in covering up doping. Given historically that doping has been more associated with the Olympics, how many times do the general public look at a doping scandal and think "meh it's not in football so I'm not bothered" I know most on here care passionately about sport and it's athletes being clean, but to me the consensus no-one cares enough probably because it's the same sports and events being exposed time and time again and that to me has reinforced the don't give a fig brigade.
i think thats its more of a question of not wanting to be exposed in a cover up rather then not being involved in a cover up
just look at all the scandals our politicians get exposed for Yikes ... you cannot rule the possibility out


I was meant to answer both points of your original post, but got caught up in a meeting.

In terms of Murray if he were doping and would there be great lengths gone to cover that up? He is a bit of a British sporting institute. I think you can only measure an athlete's influence by the take up levels in their respective sport, but also other areas they influence beyond sport. All of which is subjective.

I think in Murray's case I think it's fair to say he isn't one that is heavily involved in the sporting politics of this world and or even for that matter a sponsors wet dream. I think Murray invested in a hotel chain or starting one up in Scotland. So for me the strong message there is that he sees his business interests outside the sport and it's sponsors. You also have to factor in his frosty relationship with the LTA. He has on many occasions publicly criticised the LTA and it's existence. I can't see that they would move heaven and earth to protect him. Yes he plays Queens and Wimbledon, but not for love of the LTA.

For me too many factors would point to the opposite direction of the protectionism that might be afforded to Murray. If he is doping, he's doing it himself.

Now as for Lizzie Armistead. Isn't she the one who missed 3 tests? My view is that it is a massive failing of WADA. Should've been banned. Don't care who cleared her. Rio Ferdinand was banned for missing 1! Should be the same for all.
this has been my point all along,i seriously doubt that theres government involvement in this country,i think the dopers are doing it privately however murray may not love the LTA but they certainly have to love him.if he wasnt a grand slam winner and didnt end so many droughts in british tennis,i certainly dont think that they would move heaven and hell to try and protect him
but he is a double olympic gold medal winner,2 times wimbledon champion,world no1 and davis cup winner 
if murray were to fail a drugs test,or if someone at the LTA had proof that he was using illegal drugs,do you really believe that murray would be exposed and risk stripping him of all of the above? 
i dont.. hence the reason why i think he is likely to be an athlete who would be protected or covered up

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:38 am

Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:neither do i,defending and covering a scandal up are 2 very different things in my opinion..
if an athlete is proven to be a doper then i seriously doubt that we will see a similar scenario where the athlete gets exonerated by the prime minister,like we have seen in spain with alberto contodor 
but if an athlete like murray were to fail a drugs test going into an intrnational event like the olympics,i could see the powers that be trying to cover that up to make sure that he gets to compete 
what do you make of the lizzie armistead case?
it seems to me like everything was being done to get her to rio so that she could compete ( under very very suspicious circumstances)

True defending and covering up are 2 different things, but given the culture of society today and Politics is a charisma game, I can't see that the government would want any of their bodies involved in covering up doping. Given historically that doping has been more associated with the Olympics, how many times do the general public look at a doping scandal and think "meh it's not in football so I'm not bothered" I know most on here care passionately about sport and it's athletes being clean, but to me the consensus no-one cares enough probably because it's the same sports and events being exposed time and time again and that to me has reinforced the don't give a fig brigade.
i think thats its more of a question of not wanting to be exposed in a cover up rather then not being involved in a cover up
just look at all the scandals our politicians get exposed for Yikes ... you cannot rule the possibility out


I was meant to answer both points of your original post, but got caught up in a meeting.

In terms of Murray if he were doping and would there be great lengths gone to cover that up? He is a bit of a British sporting institute. I think you can only measure an athlete's influence by the take up levels in their respective sport, but also other areas they influence beyond sport. All of which is subjective.

I think in Murray's case I think it's fair to say he isn't one that is heavily involved in the sporting politics of this world and or even for that matter a sponsors wet dream. I think Murray invested in a hotel chain or starting one up in Scotland. So for me the strong message there is that he sees his business interests outside the sport and it's sponsors. You also have to factor in his frosty relationship with the LTA. He has on many occasions publicly criticised the LTA and it's existence. I can't see that they would move heaven and earth to protect him. Yes he plays Queens and Wimbledon, but not for love of the LTA.

For me too many factors would point to the opposite direction of the protectionism that might be afforded to Murray. If he is doping, he's doing it himself.

Now as for Lizzie Armistead. Isn't she the one who missed 3 tests? My view is that it is a massive failing of WADA. Should've been banned. Don't care who cleared her. Rio Ferdinand was banned for missing 1! Should be the same for all.
this has been my point all along,i seriously doubt that theres government involvement in this country,i think the dopers are doing it privately however murray may not love the LTA but they certainly have to love him.if he wasnt a grand slam winner and didnt end so many droughts in british tennis,i certainly dont think that they would move heaven and hell to try and protect him
but he is a double olympic gold medal winner,2 times wimbledon champion,world no1 and davis cup winner 
if murray were to fail a drugs test,or if someone at the LTA had proof that he was using illegal drugs,do you really believe that murray would be exposed and risk stripping him of all of the above? 
i dont.. hence the reason why i think he is likely to be an athlete who would be protected or covered up


I disagree. Again I don't see why the LTA would cover it up. Murray is a guy not developed through the LTA. He has always been highly critical. It would be easier for the LTA to completely distance themselves from Murray and questions not be raised given those 2 key elements. The LTA have nothing to gain whatsoever in protecting Murray in such a predicament. If anything it's the Wimbledon organisers who would probably feel the sting given Murray is one of the biggest draws if not the biggest draw for that event. Not look good if a home country champion failed a drugs test.

The LTA interests are solely participation numbers and any focus group survey would prove hard to how many play because of Murray. Murray doesn't endorse the LTA or even promote them. If anything I think it would be the ATP and it's sponsors who would be keen to protect him.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:42 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:neither do i,defending and covering a scandal up are 2 very different things in my opinion..
if an athlete is proven to be a doper then i seriously doubt that we will see a similar scenario where the athlete gets exonerated by the prime minister,like we have seen in spain with alberto contodor 
but if an athlete like murray were to fail a drugs test going into an intrnational event like the olympics,i could see the powers that be trying to cover that up to make sure that he gets to compete 
what do you make of the lizzie armistead case?
it seems to me like everything was being done to get her to rio so that she could compete ( under very very suspicious circumstances)

True defending and covering up are 2 different things, but given the culture of society today and Politics is a charisma game, I can't see that the government would want any of their bodies involved in covering up doping. Given historically that doping has been more associated with the Olympics, how many times do the general public look at a doping scandal and think "meh it's not in football so I'm not bothered" I know most on here care passionately about sport and it's athletes being clean, but to me the consensus no-one cares enough probably because it's the same sports and events being exposed time and time again and that to me has reinforced the don't give a fig brigade.
i think thats its more of a question of not wanting to be exposed in a cover up rather then not being involved in a cover up
just look at all the scandals our politicians get exposed for Yikes ... you cannot rule the possibility out


I was meant to answer both points of your original post, but got caught up in a meeting.

In terms of Murray if he were doping and would there be great lengths gone to cover that up? He is a bit of a British sporting institute. I think you can only measure an athlete's influence by the take up levels in their respective sport, but also other areas they influence beyond sport. All of which is subjective.

I think in Murray's case I think it's fair to say he isn't one that is heavily involved in the sporting politics of this world and or even for that matter a sponsors wet dream. I think Murray invested in a hotel chain or starting one up in Scotland. So for me the strong message there is that he sees his business interests outside the sport and it's sponsors. You also have to factor in his frosty relationship with the LTA. He has on many occasions publicly criticised the LTA and it's existence. I can't see that they would move heaven and earth to protect him. Yes he plays Queens and Wimbledon, but not for love of the LTA.

For me too many factors would point to the opposite direction of the protectionism that might be afforded to Murray. If he is doping, he's doing it himself.

Now as for Lizzie Armistead. Isn't she the one who missed 3 tests? My view is that it is a massive failing of WADA. Should've been banned. Don't care who cleared her. Rio Ferdinand was banned for missing 1! Should be the same for all.
this has been my point all along,i seriously doubt that theres government involvement in this country,i think the dopers are doing it privately however murray may not love the LTA but they certainly have to love him.if he wasnt a grand slam winner and didnt end so many droughts in british tennis,i certainly dont think that they would move heaven and hell to try and protect him
but he is a double olympic gold medal winner,2 times wimbledon champion,world no1 and davis cup winner 
if murray were to fail a drugs test,or if someone at the LTA had proof that he was using illegal drugs,do you really believe that murray would be exposed and risk stripping him of all of the above? 
i dont.. hence the reason why i think he is likely to be an athlete who would be protected or covered up


I disagree. Again I don't see why the LTA would cover it up. Murray is a guy not developed through the LTA. He has always been highly critical. It would be easier for the LTA to completely distance themselves from Murray and questions not be raised given those 2 key elements. The LTA have nothing to gain whatsoever in protecting Murray in such a predicament. If anything it's the Wimbledon organisers who would probably feel the sting given Murray is one of the biggest draws if not the biggest draw for that event. Not look good if a home country champion failed a drugs test.

The LTA interests are solely participation numbers and any focus group survey would prove hard to how many play because of Murray. Murray doesn't endorse the LTA or even promote them. If anything I think it would be the ATP and it's sponsors who would be keen to protect him.
ok not the LTA but the ATP
to me its all the same i.e  the powers that be

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:55 pm

Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Veejay wrote:neither do i,defending and covering a scandal up are 2 very different things in my opinion..
if an athlete is proven to be a doper then i seriously doubt that we will see a similar scenario where the athlete gets exonerated by the prime minister,like we have seen in spain with alberto contodor 
but if an athlete like murray were to fail a drugs test going into an intrnational event like the olympics,i could see the powers that be trying to cover that up to make sure that he gets to compete 
what do you make of the lizzie armistead case?
it seems to me like everything was being done to get her to rio so that she could compete ( under very very suspicious circumstances)

True defending and covering up are 2 different things, but given the culture of society today and Politics is a charisma game, I can't see that the government would want any of their bodies involved in covering up doping. Given historically that doping has been more associated with the Olympics, how many times do the general public look at a doping scandal and think "meh it's not in football so I'm not bothered" I know most on here care passionately about sport and it's athletes being clean, but to me the consensus no-one cares enough probably because it's the same sports and events being exposed time and time again and that to me has reinforced the don't give a fig brigade.
i think thats its more of a question of not wanting to be exposed in a cover up rather then not being involved in a cover up
just look at all the scandals our politicians get exposed for Yikes ... you cannot rule the possibility out


I was meant to answer both points of your original post, but got caught up in a meeting.

In terms of Murray if he were doping and would there be great lengths gone to cover that up? He is a bit of a British sporting institute. I think you can only measure an athlete's influence by the take up levels in their respective sport, but also other areas they influence beyond sport. All of which is subjective.

I think in Murray's case I think it's fair to say he isn't one that is heavily involved in the sporting politics of this world and or even for that matter a sponsors wet dream. I think Murray invested in a hotel chain or starting one up in Scotland. So for me the strong message there is that he sees his business interests outside the sport and it's sponsors. You also have to factor in his frosty relationship with the LTA. He has on many occasions publicly criticised the LTA and it's existence. I can't see that they would move heaven and earth to protect him. Yes he plays Queens and Wimbledon, but not for love of the LTA.

For me too many factors would point to the opposite direction of the protectionism that might be afforded to Murray. If he is doping, he's doing it himself.

Now as for Lizzie Armistead. Isn't she the one who missed 3 tests? My view is that it is a massive failing of WADA. Should've been banned. Don't care who cleared her. Rio Ferdinand was banned for missing 1! Should be the same for all.
this has been my point all along,i seriously doubt that theres government involvement in this country,i think the dopers are doing it privately however murray may not love the LTA but they certainly have to love him.if he wasnt a grand slam winner and didnt end so many droughts in british tennis,i certainly dont think that they would move heaven and hell to try and protect him
but he is a double olympic gold medal winner,2 times wimbledon champion,world no1 and davis cup winner 
if murray were to fail a drugs test,or if someone at the LTA had proof that he was using illegal drugs,do you really believe that murray would be exposed and risk stripping him of all of the above? 
i dont.. hence the reason why i think he is likely to be an athlete who would be protected or covered up


I disagree. Again I don't see why the LTA would cover it up. Murray is a guy not developed through the LTA. He has always been highly critical. It would be easier for the LTA to completely distance themselves from Murray and questions not be raised given those 2 key elements. The LTA have nothing to gain whatsoever in protecting Murray in such a predicament. If anything it's the Wimbledon organisers who would probably feel the sting given Murray is one of the biggest draws if not the biggest draw for that event. Not look good if a home country champion failed a drugs test.

The LTA interests are solely participation numbers and any focus group survey would prove hard to how many play because of Murray. Murray doesn't endorse the LTA or even promote them. If anything I think it would be the ATP and it's sponsors who would be keen to protect him.
ok not the LTA but the ATP
to me its all the same i.e  the powers that be


It's similar with the whole FA and Premier League. One is like a governing body (The FA) and the other a corporate whore! (The Premier League).

It's interesting in Tennis from the stand point that the Slams have their organisers and as they are ITF events, would never yield to the ATP given I would bet they make more in 2 weeks than the ATP in the entire season! The very moment the ATP becomes of a bigger commercial monster than the Slams, corruption would intensify massively overnight!

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:20 pm

I honestly think as a Country we're pretty straight. Look at how national hero Sir Bradley Wiggins has been discussed. I'm not saying there aren't British dopers (obviously there are) but I don't believe it's sanctioned at any serious level.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:08 pm

bogbrush wrote:I honestly think as a Country we're pretty straight. Look at how national hero Sir Bradley Wiggins has been discussed. I'm not saying there aren't British dopers (obviously there are) but I don't believe it's sanctioned at any serious level.

Think risk adverse would be the best way Winking

I do agree though that it's not sanctioned at the highest levels.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:01 pm

usian bolt stripped of gold medal after nesta carter tests positive 
could this be the start of another major doping scandal being exposed?
thoughts...??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/38744846

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:29 pm

No-one will go after Bolt. Not a chance

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:38 pm

legendkillar wrote:No-one will go after Bolt. Not a chance
what makes you think he is so untouchable?

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:51 pm

Agree...not before Bolt retires for good anyway.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:00 pm

Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:No-one will go after Bolt. Not a chance
what makes you think he is so untouchable?

The man is the face of world athletics. At the moment he is just associated with a doper. Let's see who else from that team gets fingered.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:12 pm

so do you think that if this led to a massive doping scandal being uncovered in jamaican athletics,that the olympic officials would cover it up if it happened to involve usain bolt?
remember the ben johnson saga where the entire canadian athletic team were eventually exposed to be a part of the doping scandal

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:15 pm

Well let's see if anymore Jamaican sprinters get busted. I know some female sprinters did, but if they all start to tumble I doubt Bolt would come out clean the other side.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:23 pm

well regardless of what happens,this is still a pretty massive blow to his legacy as he wont retire having won the triple gold in 3 different olympics
and sadly most people who follow sport casually will only ever remember the part where he was stripped of a gold medal through some doping scandal 

its rumoured that bolt told olympic officials that they can have the gold medal back if they can catch him  Laugh

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:46 pm

Jamaican sprinters have been caught in the recent past 2 big names....cant remember them though.

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