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The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:57 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
legendkillar wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/44440473

I am still trying to work out how it got in the pasta??

That’s why I like how Sharapova handled her case. She held the press conference and admitted the mistake.

The only athlete I’ve ever seen dignified in that tricky situation.

Granted she held the press conference. But that's where the dignity ends. The rest was misguided bullshit.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:35 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
legendkillar wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/44440473

I am still trying to work out how it got in the pasta??

That’s why I like how Sharapova handled her case. She held the press conference and admitted the mistake.

The only athlete I’ve ever seen dignified in that tricky situation.
You clearly don’t understand the purpose of Sharapova’s press conference at all if you think it was to admit her mistake!

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:19 am

Sara Errani...another mindless moonballer...and for those fitness is everything as it is a very gruelling physical way of playing tennis. However it's the only way to have both powerful (enough) and safe shots!

If you don't get that you have no clue about tennis.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:59 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44562870

Sky’s absolute arrogance and ignorance is startling!

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:39 pm

Interesting.

I must say I find really weird that that Froome can keep competing. Whatever the reason why he got there.


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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:50 pm

I find it weird. So if his appeal isn't overturned, then the results when he is currently competing will be none and void. Which totally destroys further the reputation of the sport.

For me, quicker the UCI get rid of Team Sky the better. They've been nothing but dodgy, especially over the Wiggins debacle.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:53 pm

Tenez wrote:Interesting.

I must say I find really weird that that Froome can keep competing. Whatever the reason why he got there.


He tested for too much of an otherwise legal substance.  The starting point is that he's allowed to take the substance up to a limit, and a finding that he had too much is treated differently as a matter of procedure to a test disclosing the presence of a completely unlawful substance.

You might think that there should be no distinction (in fact I'm sure you do), and I have some sympathy for such a point of view, but that is the reason and Froom is entitled to ride to the rules.  Mind you, he'd better have a pretty fancy argument to retrieve what, to my untutored eye, looks like a sticky situation.

As far as Hinault is concerned, my suspicion is that when one takes into account the era in which he rode he's more worried about the threat Froome poses to his records than about doping per se.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:02 pm

It's amazing how you are bent on crediting your racer. It's inexecusable.

For me he has cheated twice. Once for taking an authorised substance which should clearly be banned (I am pretty sure it will be one day) and secondly for having taken twice teh legal amount.

It's not because taking a legal substance beyond the legal dose is different than taking an illegla substance that he still should not be banned.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:10 pm

I am not remotely bent on crediting Froome and don't regard him as my racer.  I am merely pointing out the basis for the rule and acknowledging that there is room for disagreement on whether the rule is a good one.  As others have said, allowing someone to compete in the Giro on the 'never-never' like that is a PR catastrophe.

I described his as a 'sticky situation' because I am struggling to see how he can explain the finding - as I have made clear on many previous posts on this forum .

All that said, I do think it's important that anyone facing a doping ban should receive 'due process' and not 'trial by Tenez'.  If the rule permits what has happened, then the UCI has to accept that and change the rules for next time.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:30 pm

The case being "different" is just another excuse. If you don;t see it, fine, but that's why I think you are very partial.

One coudl say taking a drug which was not illegal a month before is "different" than taking a drug that has always been illegal. All cases are "different" in fact. Just that Froome is getting away with murder when we know others would not have. That's teh real difference here.

You can always hide behind the word "different", he is another obvious cheat. It's not me saying it....it is the conclusion we can all draw from the Anti-doping rule book!


Last edited by Tenez on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by luvsports! on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:07 pm

barrystar wrote:
Tenez wrote:Interesting.

I must say I find really weird that that Froome can keep competing. Whatever the reason why he got there.


He tested for too much of an otherwise legal substance.  The starting point is that he's allowed to take the substance up to a limit, and a finding that he had too much is treated differently as a matter of procedure to a test disclosing the presence of a completely unlawful substance.

You might think that there should be no distinction (in fact I'm sure you do), and I have some sympathy for such a point of view, but that is the reason and Froom is entitled to ride to the rules.  Mind you, he'd better have a pretty fancy argument to retrieve what, to my untutored eye, looks like a sticky situation.

As far as Hinault is concerned, my suspicion is that when one takes into account the era in which he rode he's more worried about the threat Froome poses to his records than about doping per se.

He had, I believe, 3 times more of this substance in him than Alessandro Petacchi (Italian cycling sprinter) did and he was banned for at least 6 months. Should that not be applied here?

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:33 pm

Tenez wrote:The case being "different" is just another excuse. If you don;t see it, fine, but that's why I think you are very partial.

One coudl say taking a drug which was not illegal a month before is "different" than taking a drug that has always been illegal. All cases are "different" in fact. Just that Froome is getting away with murder when we know others would not have. That's teh real difference here.

You can always hide behind the word "different", he is another obvious cheat. It's not me saying it....it is the conclusion we can all draw from the Anti-doping rule book!

FFS Tenez - can't you see the difference between (i) me attempting to explain why the UCI operate on the basis of a distinction they have drawn and (ii) me stating my own Opinion.  Just because I am capable of explaining the UCI's reasons and can see the distinction on which they base their approach without denouncing them as crooks that does not mean that I agree with them or am a patsy for Froome - I am a skeptic that he will be able to come up with an explanation, and I am also a skeptic about the whole TUE system as it currently works.  We've been here before - you are incredulous that I am not denouncing everyone as a cheat (bar the former Eastern Block), I prefer to see how things play out from a skeptical starting point.


Last edited by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : adding from 'patsy' on)

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:37 pm

luvsports! wrote:
barrystar wrote:
Tenez wrote:Interesting.

I must say I find really weird that that Froome can keep competing. Whatever the reason why he got there.


He tested for too much of an otherwise legal substance.  The starting point is that he's allowed to take the substance up to a limit, and a finding that he had too much is treated differently as a matter of procedure to a test disclosing the presence of a completely unlawful substance.

You might think that there should be no distinction (in fact I'm sure you do), and I have some sympathy for such a point of view, but that is the reason and Froom is entitled to ride to the rules.  Mind you, he'd better have a pretty fancy argument to retrieve what, to my untutored eye, looks like a sticky situation.

As far as Hinault is concerned, my suspicion is that when one takes into account the era in which he rode he's more worried about the threat Froome poses to his records than about doping per se.

He had, I believe, 3 times more of this substance in him than Alessandro Petacchi (Italian cycling sprinter) did and he was banned for at least 6 months. Should that not be applied here?

Unless he can advance medical evidence that Petacchi did not which explains his adverse finding or challenges the reliability of the test then you are right that he must be looking at a ban.  We'll see - the utterances from Sky so far suggest that they will be advancing a mountain of new medical evidence said to support a wide range of challneges.  We'll see what he comes up with - I am a skeptic as to whether he will be able to provide an explanation which flies.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:39 pm

barrystar wrote:
FFS Tenez - can't you see the difference between (i) me attempting to explain why the UCI operate on the basis of a distinction they have drawn and (ii) me stating my own Opinion.  Just because I am capable of explaining the UCI's reasons and can see the distinction on which they base their approach without denouncing them as crooks that does not mean that I agree with them.

It's the "some" from your previous post that gave it away, Barry. Winking

barrystar wrote:
He tested for too much of an otherwise legal substance.  The starting point is that he's allowed to take the substance up to a limit, and a finding that he had too much is treated differently as a matter of procedure to a test disclosing the presence of a completely unlawful substance.
You might think that there should be no distinction (in fact I'm sure you do), and I have some sympathy for such a point of view, but that is the reason and Froom is entitled to ride to the rules.  Mind you, he'd better have a pretty fancy argument to retrieve what, to my untutored eye, looks like a sticky situation.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:46 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
barrystar wrote:
FFS Tenez - can't you see the difference between (i) me attempting to explain why the UCI operate on the basis of a distinction they have drawn and (ii) me stating my own Opinion.  Just because I am capable of explaining the UCI's reasons and can see the distinction on which they base their approach without denouncing them as crooks that does not mean that I agree with them.

It's the "some" from your previous post that gave it away, Barry. Winking

barrystar wrote:
He tested for too much of an otherwise legal substance.  The starting point is that he's allowed to take the substance up to a limit, and a finding that he had too much is treated differently as a matter of procedure to a test disclosing the presence of a completely unlawful substance.
You might think that there should be no distinction (in fact I'm sure you do), and I have some sympathy for such a point of view, but that is the reason and Froom is entitled to ride to the rules.  Mind you, he'd better have a pretty fancy argument to retrieve what, to my untutored eye, looks like a sticky situation.

I see - well perhaps I should be clear "some" in this instance is shorthand for being able to see both sides of the argument, but not having formed a clear view since I have not made the effort to get completely on top of it.  My key difference from Tenez is that whilst I think that the TUE regime is open to abuse and too widely abused, I think that there is room for some form of TUE exemption, so I think that getting it 'right' is complicated and if you have a TUE regime then logic dictates that there is a distinction between 100% illegal substances and an over-dose of a substance which is legal up to a limit.  Tenez thinks there is no distinction, that TUE is a doping loophole and he'd close it.  I respect that point of view, but it's a bit exhausting not being able to discuss it without being tarred as an Anglocentric supporter of Western dopers.  I'll stop taking the bait because it's going nowhere.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:56 pm

They all talk about a "zero tolerance"...yet when it comes to excuses some are better than others.

Barry, You are right. I cannot see the other side of the argument. Cause there is none! Only where there is a will to innocent someone, can a a way be found.

I am pretty sure this is a silly mistake from Froome....but that I don;t care in view that a similar mistake cost Sharapova 9 months ban but more so, the reputation of being a cheat.

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Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:12 am

I think one thing we can all agree on is that this is taking far too long. It looks like Froome will compete in a second Grand Tour since the results were published and it will be, at least, 9 months after the Vuelta before there is any outcome. The process needs to change going forwards.

Like Barry, I find it very difficult to see what Froome will come up with to exonerate himself completely. It will be very interesting to see what arguments they come up with but I think they’d have said more already if there was anything concrete. I’m expecting him to face some sort of ban but, if not, I hope there is total transparency over the reasoning. Either result to me has the potential to be extremely damaging to cycling’s reputation.

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