Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» Canada/Cincinnati Masters Series
Today at 10:14 pm by luvsports!

» Shot clock
Yesterday at 1:33 pm by bogbrush

» ATP 250/500 Tournaments 2018 Thread: Rio, Marseille, Delray
Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:37 pm by Jahu

» Wilander: On Federer’s Balls, Beating Nadal at RG And More....
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:17 pm by noleisthebest

» Tennis News
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:38 pm by luvsports!

» USO 2018 Talk
Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:46 pm by DEC1M7

» The doping program joke of the ITF!!!
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:32 am by Slippy

» Serena at it again!
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:05 am by legendkillar

» Djokovic's greatest triumph
Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:22 pm by bogbrush

August 2018
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
  12345
6789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
2728293031  

Calendar Calendar

Affiliates
free forum


The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Page 21 of 22 Previous  1 ... 12 ... 20, 21, 22  Next

Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:57 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
legendkillar wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/44440473

I am still trying to work out how it got in the pasta??

That’s why I like how Sharapova handled her case. She held the press conference and admitted the mistake.

The only athlete I’ve ever seen dignified in that tricky situation.

Granted she held the press conference. But that's where the dignity ends. The rest was misguided bullshit.

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:35 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
legendkillar wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/44440473

I am still trying to work out how it got in the pasta??

That’s why I like how Sharapova handled her case. She held the press conference and admitted the mistake.

The only athlete I’ve ever seen dignified in that tricky situation.
You clearly don’t understand the purpose of Sharapova’s press conference at all if you think it was to admit her mistake!

Slippy

Posts : 385
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:19 am

Sara Errani...another mindless moonballer...and for those fitness is everything as it is a very gruelling physical way of playing tennis. However it's the only way to have both powerful (enough) and safe shots!

If you don't get that you have no clue about tennis.

Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:59 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44562870

Sky’s absolute arrogance and ignorance is startling!

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:39 pm

Interesting.

I must say I find really weird that that Froome can keep competing. Whatever the reason why he got there.


Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:50 pm

I find it weird. So if his appeal isn't overturned, then the results when he is currently competing will be none and void. Which totally destroys further the reputation of the sport.

For me, quicker the UCI get rid of Team Sky the better. They've been nothing but dodgy, especially over the Wiggins debacle.

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:53 pm

Tenez wrote:Interesting.

I must say I find really weird that that Froome can keep competing. Whatever the reason why he got there.


He tested for too much of an otherwise legal substance.  The starting point is that he's allowed to take the substance up to a limit, and a finding that he had too much is treated differently as a matter of procedure to a test disclosing the presence of a completely unlawful substance.

You might think that there should be no distinction (in fact I'm sure you do), and I have some sympathy for such a point of view, but that is the reason and Froom is entitled to ride to the rules.  Mind you, he'd better have a pretty fancy argument to retrieve what, to my untutored eye, looks like a sticky situation.

As far as Hinault is concerned, my suspicion is that when one takes into account the era in which he rode he's more worried about the threat Froome poses to his records than about doping per se.

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:02 pm

It's amazing how you are bent on crediting your racer. It's inexecusable.

For me he has cheated twice. Once for taking an authorised substance which should clearly be banned (I am pretty sure it will be one day) and secondly for having taken twice teh legal amount.

It's not because taking a legal substance beyond the legal dose is different than taking an illegla substance that he still should not be banned.

Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:10 pm

I am not remotely bent on crediting Froome and don't regard him as my racer.  I am merely pointing out the basis for the rule and acknowledging that there is room for disagreement on whether the rule is a good one.  As others have said, allowing someone to compete in the Giro on the 'never-never' like that is a PR catastrophe.

I described his as a 'sticky situation' because I am struggling to see how he can explain the finding - as I have made clear on many previous posts on this forum .

All that said, I do think it's important that anyone facing a doping ban should receive 'due process' and not 'trial by Tenez'.  If the rule permits what has happened, then the UCI has to accept that and change the rules for next time.

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:30 pm

The case being "different" is just another excuse. If you don;t see it, fine, but that's why I think you are very partial.

One coudl say taking a drug which was not illegal a month before is "different" than taking a drug that has always been illegal. All cases are "different" in fact. Just that Froome is getting away with murder when we know others would not have. That's teh real difference here.

You can always hide behind the word "different", he is another obvious cheat. It's not me saying it....it is the conclusion we can all draw from the Anti-doping rule book!


Last edited by Tenez on Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by luvsports! on Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:07 pm

barrystar wrote:
Tenez wrote:Interesting.

I must say I find really weird that that Froome can keep competing. Whatever the reason why he got there.


He tested for too much of an otherwise legal substance.  The starting point is that he's allowed to take the substance up to a limit, and a finding that he had too much is treated differently as a matter of procedure to a test disclosing the presence of a completely unlawful substance.

You might think that there should be no distinction (in fact I'm sure you do), and I have some sympathy for such a point of view, but that is the reason and Froom is entitled to ride to the rules.  Mind you, he'd better have a pretty fancy argument to retrieve what, to my untutored eye, looks like a sticky situation.

As far as Hinault is concerned, my suspicion is that when one takes into account the era in which he rode he's more worried about the threat Froome poses to his records than about doping per se.

He had, I believe, 3 times more of this substance in him than Alessandro Petacchi (Italian cycling sprinter) did and he was banned for at least 6 months. Should that not be applied here?

luvsports!

Posts : 4473
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:33 pm

Tenez wrote:The case being "different" is just another excuse. If you don;t see it, fine, but that's why I think you are very partial.

One coudl say taking a drug which was not illegal a month before is "different" than taking a drug that has always been illegal. All cases are "different" in fact. Just that Froome is getting away with murder when we know others would not have. That's teh real difference here.

You can always hide behind the word "different", he is another obvious cheat. It's not me saying it....it is the conclusion we can all draw from the Anti-doping rule book!

FFS Tenez - can't you see the difference between (i) me attempting to explain why the UCI operate on the basis of a distinction they have drawn and (ii) me stating my own Opinion.  Just because I am capable of explaining the UCI's reasons and can see the distinction on which they base their approach without denouncing them as crooks that does not mean that I agree with them or am a patsy for Froome - I am a skeptic that he will be able to come up with an explanation, and I am also a skeptic about the whole TUE system as it currently works.  We've been here before - you are incredulous that I am not denouncing everyone as a cheat (bar the former Eastern Block), I prefer to see how things play out from a skeptical starting point.


Last edited by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : adding from 'patsy' on)

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:37 pm

luvsports! wrote:
barrystar wrote:
Tenez wrote:Interesting.

I must say I find really weird that that Froome can keep competing. Whatever the reason why he got there.


He tested for too much of an otherwise legal substance.  The starting point is that he's allowed to take the substance up to a limit, and a finding that he had too much is treated differently as a matter of procedure to a test disclosing the presence of a completely unlawful substance.

You might think that there should be no distinction (in fact I'm sure you do), and I have some sympathy for such a point of view, but that is the reason and Froom is entitled to ride to the rules.  Mind you, he'd better have a pretty fancy argument to retrieve what, to my untutored eye, looks like a sticky situation.

As far as Hinault is concerned, my suspicion is that when one takes into account the era in which he rode he's more worried about the threat Froome poses to his records than about doping per se.

He had, I believe, 3 times more of this substance in him than Alessandro Petacchi (Italian cycling sprinter) did and he was banned for at least 6 months. Should that not be applied here?

Unless he can advance medical evidence that Petacchi did not which explains his adverse finding or challenges the reliability of the test then you are right that he must be looking at a ban.  We'll see - the utterances from Sky so far suggest that they will be advancing a mountain of new medical evidence said to support a wide range of challneges.  We'll see what he comes up with - I am a skeptic as to whether he will be able to provide an explanation which flies.

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:39 pm

barrystar wrote:
FFS Tenez - can't you see the difference between (i) me attempting to explain why the UCI operate on the basis of a distinction they have drawn and (ii) me stating my own Opinion.  Just because I am capable of explaining the UCI's reasons and can see the distinction on which they base their approach without denouncing them as crooks that does not mean that I agree with them.

It's the "some" from your previous post that gave it away, Barry. Winking

barrystar wrote:
He tested for too much of an otherwise legal substance.  The starting point is that he's allowed to take the substance up to a limit, and a finding that he had too much is treated differently as a matter of procedure to a test disclosing the presence of a completely unlawful substance.
You might think that there should be no distinction (in fact I'm sure you do), and I have some sympathy for such a point of view, but that is the reason and Froom is entitled to ride to the rules.  Mind you, he'd better have a pretty fancy argument to retrieve what, to my untutored eye, looks like a sticky situation.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:46 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
barrystar wrote:
FFS Tenez - can't you see the difference between (i) me attempting to explain why the UCI operate on the basis of a distinction they have drawn and (ii) me stating my own Opinion.  Just because I am capable of explaining the UCI's reasons and can see the distinction on which they base their approach without denouncing them as crooks that does not mean that I agree with them.

It's the "some" from your previous post that gave it away, Barry. Winking

barrystar wrote:
He tested for too much of an otherwise legal substance.  The starting point is that he's allowed to take the substance up to a limit, and a finding that he had too much is treated differently as a matter of procedure to a test disclosing the presence of a completely unlawful substance.
You might think that there should be no distinction (in fact I'm sure you do), and I have some sympathy for such a point of view, but that is the reason and Froom is entitled to ride to the rules.  Mind you, he'd better have a pretty fancy argument to retrieve what, to my untutored eye, looks like a sticky situation.

I see - well perhaps I should be clear "some" in this instance is shorthand for being able to see both sides of the argument, but not having formed a clear view since I have not made the effort to get completely on top of it.  My key difference from Tenez is that whilst I think that the TUE regime is open to abuse and too widely abused, I think that there is room for some form of TUE exemption, so I think that getting it 'right' is complicated and if you have a TUE regime then logic dictates that there is a distinction between 100% illegal substances and an over-dose of a substance which is legal up to a limit.  Tenez thinks there is no distinction, that TUE is a doping loophole and he'd close it.  I respect that point of view, but it's a bit exhausting not being able to discuss it without being tarred as an Anglocentric supporter of Western dopers.  I'll stop taking the bait because it's going nowhere.

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:56 pm

They all talk about a "zero tolerance"...yet when it comes to excuses some are better than others.

Barry, You are right. I cannot see the other side of the argument. Cause there is none! Only where there is a will to innocent someone, can a a way be found.

I am pretty sure this is a silly mistake from Froome....but that I don;t care in view that a similar mistake cost Sharapova 9 months ban but more so, the reputation of being a cheat.

Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:12 am

I think one thing we can all agree on is that this is taking far too long. It looks like Froome will compete in a second Grand Tour since the results were published and it will be, at least, 9 months after the Vuelta before there is any outcome. The process needs to change going forwards.

Like Barry, I find it very difficult to see what Froome will come up with to exonerate himself completely. It will be very interesting to see what arguments they come up with but I think they’d have said more already if there was anything concrete. I’m expecting him to face some sort of ban but, if not, I hope there is total transparency over the reasoning. Either result to me has the potential to be extremely damaging to cycling’s reputation.

Slippy

Posts : 385
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:20 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44654688

Pathetic! 

If you know you are in over your head, remove yourself from the picture. 

Sick and tired of seeing people who fuck up or break and bend laws, get caught out and then cite "feeling like suicide because of stress" 

Too many spineless cowards out there.

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:14 pm

legendkillar wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44654688

Pathetic! 

If you know you are in over your head, remove yourself from the picture. 

Sick and tired of seeing people who fuck up or break and bend laws, get caught out and then cite "feeling like suicide because of stress" 

Too many spineless cowards out there.

Yes the victimisation card again!
"oh...poor me I have asthma",
"I was harassed and felt suicidal"
"I am hitting the ball harder and run more than anyone else so I need more time between points",
"I was pregnant and need special treatment"
etc...

Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:01 am

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44654688

Pathetic! 

If you know you are in over your head, remove yourself from the picture. 

Sick and tired of seeing people who fuck up or break and bend laws, get caught out and then cite "feeling like suicide because of stress" 

Too many spineless cowards out there.

Yes the victimisation card again!
"oh...poor me I have asthma",
"I was harassed and felt suicidal"
"I am hitting the ball harder and run more than anyone else so I need more time between points",
"I was pregnant and need special treatment"
etc...

Its a great way of blurring the lines. Look past the crime and paint a picture of ignorance and hope those sympathise with you. 

Excuse, excuse, excuse. It's about time people took some accountability for their actions.

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:28 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44679483

Fucking disgrace!  Grr Grr 

An embarrassment of a sport. It's not a sport. It's a shambolic steaming pile of shit!


Last edited by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by luvsports! on Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:44 am

This is such a crock of shit.

luvsports!

Posts : 4473
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:48 am

Can't wait for the shit show of rationale that follows to explain that abnormality!

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:57 am

Well, well, well - this has caught me by surprise, although there were v. confident noises coming from the Froome camp last week https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/02/chris-froome-cleared-by-uci-in-anti-doping-investigation

It's a mess, starting with the fact that followers of sport need to understand the reasons which lead to WADA's advice to the UCI that,
Mr Froome’s sample results do not constitute an AAF

Maybe we'll see that advice, and maybe it will go some way to help, but I doubt it.

Thus far this saga suggests that the TUE system and the testing around it (or at least in so far as it relates to salbutamol) is close to broken and we now have the worst of all worlds - skepticism and cynicism will increase with many believing it's a kicking over the traces of a cheat, others will believe that a good man has been unfairly traduced - whichever side one is nearer to of those, most of us are left even more bemused than before as to whether we can believe what we are seeing and still befuddled about the success enjoyed by so many asthmatics taking advantage of the TUE system.

I suspect that Froome/Sky were able to afford specialised expertise which challenged the testing in a fundamental way that has not been advanced before and which has not been discussed on the various blogs &c covering this subject.  Hopefully we'll find out - and one can only speculate until then, but I'm not confident that will really help sort it all out in most people's minds.

Some form of enhanced clarity has to come from this - the sport knows how damaging this looks.

Finally - for me, do I think he's clean, and perhaps before you ask yourself that question, what does 'clean' mean these days with the TUE system?  I don't have any idea - my starting point is to suspect that he's not a great deal different in what he does from many in the peleton, but I'm doubtful that I'd be happy with what they do at Sky if I knew the full story.

If you follow cycling I think you have to make your own judgment as to what it is you are seeing and where your breaking point is.

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by naxroy on Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:00 am

I dont watch ciclyng anymore

naxroy

Posts : 684
Join date : 2017-07-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:09 am

This is the UCI's statement of today's date:
 
The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) confirms that the anti-doping proceedings involving Mr Christopher Froome have now been closed.
On 20 September 2017, Mr Froome was notified that a sample collected during the Vuelta a España on 7 September 2017 was reported to contain a concentration of salbutamol in excess of 1000ng/ml.
The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Prohibited List provides that inhaled salbutamol is permitted subject to a maximum dose of 1600 micrograms over 24 hours, not to exceed 800 micrograms every 12 hours (the permitted use), and that a concentration in excess of 1000 ng/ml is an abnormal finding which is presumed not to be the result of a permitted use. The WADA Prohibited List further provides that the athlete can establish that his/her abnormal result was the consequence of a permitted use, in which case it will not be considered as an Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF).
The UCI instigated disciplinary proceedings in accordance with the UCI Anti-Doping Rules (ADR), during which Mr Froome exercised his right to prove that his abnormal result was the consequence of a permitted use. The proceedings started with an evidentiary phase, with the UCI and Mr Froome agreeing that the UCI Anti-Doping Tribunal would decide whether certain information could be provided to Mr Froome in preparing his defence. The UCI already sought WADA’s advice at that stage, during which a significant number of expert and scientific reports were submitted on behalf of Mr Froome.
After the evidentiary phase, Mr Froome requested additional information from WADA about the salbutamol regime. Following receipt of information from WADA, Mr Froome then filed his explanation for the abnormal result on 4 June 2018, together with significant additional expert evidence.
The UCI has considered all the relevant evidence in detail (in consultation with its own experts and experts from WADA). On 28 June 2018, WADA informed the UCI that it would accept, based on the specific facts of the case, that Mr Froome’s sample results do not constitute an AAF. In light of WADA’s unparalleled access to information and authorship of the salbutamol regime, the UCI has decided, based on WADA’s position, to close the proceedings against Mr Froome.
Whilst the UCI would have obviously preferred the proceedings to have been finalised earlier in the season, it had to ensure that Mr Froome had a fair process, as it would have done with any other rider, and that the correct decision was issued. Having received WADA’s position on 28 June 2018, the UCI prepared and issued its formal reasoned decision as quickly as possible in the circumstances.
The UCI understands that there will be significant discussion of this decision, but wishes to reassure all those involved in or interested in cycling that its decision is based on expert opinions, WADA’s advice, and a full assessment of the facts of the case. The UCI hopes that the cycling world can now turn its focus to, and enjoy, the upcoming races on the cycling calendar.

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:12 am

barrystar wrote:Well, well, well - this has caught me by surprise, although there were v. confident noises coming from the Froome camp last week https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/02/chris-froome-cleared-by-uci-in-anti-doping-investigation

It's a mess, starting with the fact that followers of sport need to understand the reasons which lead to WADA's advice to the UCI that,
Mr Froome’s sample results do not constitute an AAF

Maybe we'll see that advice, and maybe it will go some way to help, but I doubt it.

Thus far this saga suggests that the TUE system and the testing around it (or at least in so far as it relates to salbutamol) is close to broken and we now have the worst of all worlds - skepticism and cynicism will increase with many believing it's a kicking over the traces of a cheat, others will believe that a good man has been unfairly traduced - whichever side one is nearer to of those, most of us are left even more bemused than before as to whether we can believe what we are seeing and still befuddled about the success enjoyed by so many asthmatics taking advantage of the TUE system.

I suspect that Froome/Sky were able to afford specialised expertise which challenged the testing in a fundamental way that has not been advanced before and which has not been discussed on the various blogs &c covering this subject.  Hopefully we'll find out - and one can only speculate until then, but I'm not confident that will really help sort it all out in most people's minds.

Some form of enhanced clarity has to come from this - the sport knows how damaging this looks.

Finally - for me, do I think he's clean, and perhaps before you ask yourself that question, what does 'clean' mean these days with the TUE system?  I don't have any idea - my starting point is to suspect that he's not a great deal different in what he does from many in the peleton, but I'm doubtful that I'd be happy with what they do at Sky if I knew the full story.

If you follow cycling I think you have to make your own judgment as to what it is you are seeing and where your breaking point is.

Indeed. That can take many forms, from the sample not being correctly stored or being contaminated by poor storage to the testers not delivering the sample in a timely fashion to the labs to the analysing equipment missing a quarterly maintenance check or the analysers being deemed lower performing than new analysers. It's a murky and messy process to say the least. 

And I think your second to last point is so right. What is clean? I take the extreme view. If you test positive or take a banned substance, your not clean. It's as black and white for me. The moment excuses and explanations can be offered up, considered and then later accepted, the laws and rules become a mockery. No point having them in place.

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:24 am

legendkillar wrote:

Indeed. That can take many forms, from the sample not being correctly stored or being contaminated by poor storage to the testers not delivering the sample in a timely fashion to the labs to the analysing equipment missing a quarterly maintenance check or the analysers being deemed lower performing than new analysers. It's a murky and messy process to say the least. 

And I think your second to last point is so right. What is clean? I take the extreme view. If you test positive or take a banned substance, your not clean. It's as black and white for me. The moment excuses and explanations can be offered up, considered and then later accepted, the laws and rules become a mockery. No point having them in place.

Does that mean Froome is not clean for you - I think you'd say 'yes'?

But is this really as black and white as you say - if someone tests positive and proves that the sample has not been handled properly with a risk of contamination does he/she get banned for that?

If yes, then how fair is your system to spectators as well as the competitors? What if it's proven that the person handling the sample inadvertently wore gloves or clothing contaminated with the very banned substance they were testing for?  If you would accept that there is a situation where an initial positive sample might be challenged so that it would not lead to a ban, then where do you draw the line?

It sometimes seems easy to say where the line should be by reference to use of black and white words, or a partial understanding of a particular case, but when the rules are set they have to draw a line for every possible eventuality, many of them close to entirely unpredictable.  Bottom line is that setting rules that are both fair and robust are rarely as easy as it seems.

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:47 am

barrystar wrote:
legendkillar wrote:

Indeed. That can take many forms, from the sample not being correctly stored or being contaminated by poor storage to the testers not delivering the sample in a timely fashion to the labs to the analysing equipment missing a quarterly maintenance check or the analysers being deemed lower performing than new analysers. It's a murky and messy process to say the least. 

And I think your second to last point is so right. What is clean? I take the extreme view. If you test positive or take a banned substance, your not clean. It's as black and white for me. The moment excuses and explanations can be offered up, considered and then later accepted, the laws and rules become a mockery. No point having them in place.

Does that mean Froome is not clean for you - I think you'd say 'yes'?

But is this really as black and white as you say - if someone tests positive and proves that the sample has not been handled properly with a risk of contamination does he/she get banned for that?

If yes, then how fair is your system to spectators as well as the competitors? What if it's proven that the person handling the sample inadvertently wore gloves or clothing contaminated with the very banned substance they were testing for?  If you would accept that there is a situation where an initial positive sample might be challenged so that it would not lead to a ban, then where do you draw the line?

It sometimes seems easy to say where the line should be by reference to use of black and white words, or a partial understanding of a particular case, but when the rules are set they have to draw a line for every possible eventuality, many of them close to entirely unpredictable.  Bottom line is that setting rules that are both fair and robust are rarely as easy as it seems.

I would say yes barry as that for me would be the indication that the drug is in his system in high quantities. 

The thing is going by lab experience I've had, using your point for contamination, it depends on the thresholds that WADA and UCI set for being a "conclusive result" so if the bar was set at lets say 99% a result and say that Froome's was 100% to which then it's re-tested on grounds which may have had some form of contamination and then comes in at 98.9% factoring in potential contamination or the analyser functionality, that test would then be deemed an "inconclusive result" so, would that in your mind be fair? Or for example a lab technician not having GCSE's despite having the necessary training to run the test and then that being technical grounds for the test being void as the job description required GCSE's? Again is that fair, despite the evidence being there? Extreme examples barry, but in my experience I've seen some real shit reasons given and accepted for overturning abnormal findings whether it be sport or crime. So in essence it's not fair, it's finding a way of getting off the hook.

For contamination, mishandling or even an analyser being crap, you'd have to go very far for the abnormal findings to be way off.

What this highlights for me barry, what is the point of laws and rules if the very nature of those failing or breaking them seek to be cleared? 

I am all for fairness for both competitors and spectators and I take a risk approach. If you can terminate the risk eg not take a substance you know has the chance to get you banned, then don't take it. 

If the rules and laws contain such high levels of doubt, then they need revisiting.


Last edited by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:03 pm

legendkillar wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44679483

Fucking disgrace!  Grr Grr 

An embarrassment of a sport. It's not a sport. It's a shambolic steaming pile of shit!
Bloody Russians! Bunch of cheats!

Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:06 pm

naxroy wrote:I dont watch ciclyng anymore
That's interesting!

Are you accusing those cycling of cheating in spite of being "officially" clean?

Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:31 pm

legendkillar wrote:

And I think your second to last point is so right. What is clean? I take the extreme view. If you test positive or take a banned substance, your not clean. It's as black and white for me. The moment excuses and explanations can be offered up, considered and then later accepted, the laws and rules become a mockery. No point having them in place.
It's not an "extreme" view...it is simply the rule!

What is extreme is the measures some are taking to gain an advantage cause the gains are disproportionate. the difference in $$ making between being number 1 (yellow jersey) and in the peloton are huge! That's what is really extreme and that is why asthmatic champions are cheating twice....once for pretending being asthmatic, secondly managing to take the dose twice the level permitted and get away with it.

I suspect it is going to be an ugly TDF for Froome. He is going to be covered in spit for over 1.5k miles!

Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by naxroy on Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:33 pm

Tenez

That's interesting! Are you accusing those cycling of cheating in spite of being "officially" clean? 



not at all, but look at the number of official doping cases since 1996

it got to a point in which from last 30 podiums in tour the france just a handful of cyclists were officialy clean...

naxroy

Posts : 684
Join date : 2017-07-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:49 pm

So dehydration has been highlighted as one of the key causes of the AAF in relation to Salbutamol?

I predict all racers next year will be "asthmatic"

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:13 pm

I haven’t read any more than the statements above but it clearly isn’t sufficient. It doesn’t even seek to explain why WADA seems to have given a view that there was no case to answer. There is surely going to be huge pressure to provide the expert evidence and submissions relied upon.

Slippy

Posts : 385
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:23 pm

Slippy wrote:I haven’t read any more than the statements above but it clearly isn’t sufficient. It doesn’t even seek to explain why WADA seems to have given a view that there was no case to answer. There is surely going to be huge pressure to provide the expert evidence and submissions relied upon.

I have no doubt they'll reference a study conducted a couple of years ago which looked at levels of Salbutamol in athletes that competed and rested, competed and were dehydrated and I think the other was just competing. They found in that report that Salbutamol levels were inconsistent and prone to abnormalities in testing. Can't remember the chap who done it and exactly when, but it's out there somewhere. Remember a former colleague of mine a sporting enthusiast in the world of pharmacy referencing it. 

It was suggested that dehydration contributed to reading being almost double the result!

That's quite a leap.

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:05 am

Well if you’re going to damn peoples careers you better have impeccable credibility, and if you can’t defend the integrity of your tests you’re simply not up to it.

Froome is innocent unless shown to be guilty. He can’t be shown to be guilty so that must be the end of this matter. 

The article title is correct but not only, perhaps, as it was meant. The rush to right a wrong cannot be allowed to become villagers with pitchforks storming the home of anyone accused. Quite simple really, they have to test rigorously and reliably, and on that basis ban cheats for life.

bogbrush

Posts : 2277
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:25 am

I would say I would agree, if the rules of the game weren't designed for the game to fail smiley

I just say legalise drugs and have a register which states who is on what. Anything taken not registered, encounters a ban. Everything becomes transparent and reduces deception.

Saves money, hassle and everything else.

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:10 am

 by bogbrush Today at 7:05 am

Well if you’re going to damn peoples careers you better have impeccable credibility, and if you can’t defend the integrity of your tests you’re simply not up to it.

Froome is innocent unless shown to be guilty. He can’t be shown to be guilty so that must be the end of this matter. 

The article title is correct but not only, perhaps, as it was meant. The rush to right a wrong cannot be allowed to become villagers with pitchforks storming the home of anyone accused. Quite simple really, they have to test rigorously and reliably, and on that basis ban cheats for life.

Quite - it is perfectly acceptable to decide that you don't like what you see, or to dislike the whole concept of TUE - and then stop following the sport or campaign for a change, but it is not acceptable to say that XX is a cheat unless XX has had an opportunity to respond to a fair process.  A lot of the reaction is from people who feel deprived of a scalp.  I get why Sky is unpopular and I also understand why there is suspicion of TUE, but not at the cost of throwing fair procedure out of the window.

 by legendkillar Today at 8:25 am

I would say I would agree, if the rules of the game weren't designed for the game to fail 

I just say legalise drugs and have a register which states who is on what. Anything taken not registered, encounters a ban. Everything becomes transparent and reduces deception.

Saves money, hassle and everything else.

I am afraid this needs to be countered robustly:

(a) the rules are not designed for the game to fail - human physiology is not a straightforward science (from your posts you are probably more aware of that than I am), we are all different in subtle ways, and before someone is damned as a cheat they must be given the chance in a fair process to demonstrate that a test result does not indicate guilt to the required standard.  If they do, then the rules have worked - the fact they have deprived the disappointed of a scalp is not the basis on which to judge rules.  I know that there have been earlier precedents for excessive tests of the same substance who got punished - perhaps they did not mount a decent defence or Froome's circumstances are different. I do think WADA need to publish sufficient evidence for there to be clarity and to protect their own reputation.

(b) your register system does perhaps mean that we don't have the complexity as in Froome's case of working out how there was an excessive reading for a legal substance - but you still need procedures to ensure that test results for illegal substances are accurate and can be challenged.  You might save money - but perhaps at the risk of unfairness.  If you don't have a TUE system you may find that you prevent many people from competing with assistance which, if you were given time to consider the circumstances, you would be happy with.

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:51 am

barrystar wrote:Quite - it is perfectly acceptable to decide that you don't like what you see, or to dislike the whole concept of TUE - and then stop following the sport or campaign for a change, but it is not acceptable to say that XX is a cheat unless XX has had an opportunity to respond to a fair process.  A lot of the reaction is from people who feel deprived of a scalp.  I get why Sky is unpopular and I also understand why there is suspicion of TUE, but not at the cost of throwing fair procedure out of the window.
Nah....completely disagree with that. In an ideal world, yes it makes sense. But this is not an ideal world Barry, far from it. UCI is, historically, a corrupt organisation. They obey today to the same financial pressures of the past. They are just getting better (or worse imo actually) at protecting their sport.

You have got be so gullible to believe whatever comes out of it after their past.
That's what I find depressing with the human race, they never learn! Barry tomorrow Bush and Blair (or their successors) were to "legally" justify another invasion of a 3rd world country, you would bite again!
As smart and educated as one might be, if he/she has no discernement skills, he is pretty much a stuffed turkey!

Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:54 am

barrystar wrote:
 by bogbrush Today at 7:05 am

Well if you’re going to damn peoples careers you better have impeccable credibility, and if you can’t defend the integrity of your tests you’re simply not up to it.

Froome is innocent unless shown to be guilty. He can’t be shown to be guilty so that must be the end of this matter. 

The article title is correct but not only, perhaps, as it was meant. The rush to right a wrong cannot be allowed to become villagers with pitchforks storming the home of anyone accused. Quite simple really, they have to test rigorously and reliably, and on that basis ban cheats for life.

Quite - it is perfectly acceptable to decide that you don't like what you see, or to dislike the whole concept of TUE - and then stop following the sport or campaign for a change, but it is not acceptable to say that XX is a cheat unless XX has had an opportunity to respond to a fair process.  A lot of the reaction is from people who feel deprived of a scalp.  I get why Sky is unpopular and I also understand why there is suspicion of TUE, but not at the cost of throwing fair procedure out of the window.

 by legendkillar Today at 8:25 am

I would say I would agree, if the rules of the game weren't designed for the game to fail 

I just say legalise drugs and have a register which states who is on what. Anything taken not registered, encounters a ban. Everything becomes transparent and reduces deception.

Saves money, hassle and everything else.

I am afraid this needs to be countered robustly:

(a) the rules are not designed for the game to fail - human physiology is not a straightforward science (from your posts you are probably more aware of that than I am), we are all different in subtle ways, and before someone is damned as a cheat they must be given the chance in a fair process to demonstrate that a test result does not indicate guilt to the required standard.  If they do, then the rules have worked - the fact they have deprived the disappointed of a scalp is not the basis on which to judge rules.  I know that there have been earlier precedents for excessive tests of the same substance who got punished - perhaps they did not mount a decent defence or Froome's circumstances are different. I do think WADA need to publish sufficient evidence for there to be clarity and to protect their own reputation.

(b) your register system does perhaps mean that we don't have the complexity as in Froome's case of working out how there was an excessive reading for a legal substance - but you still need procedures to ensure that test results for illegal substances are accurate and can be challenged.  You might save money - but perhaps at the risk of unfairness.  If you don't have a TUE system you may find that you prevent many people from competing with assistance which, if you were given time to consider the circumstances, you would be happy with.


Barry







A) The game is designed to fail. Look away from science for a second. A flaw in the process, not the science, but the process means then the whole thing is discredited. So even if there was evidence, the science can’t be looked at from perspective in say the area wasn’t sterilized to high standards, despite samples potentially being sealed or from protective coverings on footwear not being worn. So I agree yes there needs to be a fair process, but with so many elements that could trip one up before we get to the science and looking at the test results, it would be deemed un-credible. If conclusive rates were not so high, no-one could ever get a decision overturned, however it’s one of ensuring accuracy and certainty, but if you do the math, 1% is easier to overturn than say 5%. I accept there are many exceptional cases and each one is unique due to our biology and chemical make-up, but in some cases some really push the thresholds of permitted levels.







B) I say legalise drugs. Controversial as it sounds, I think that’s the only way in my view a level playing field is better achieved (those with money no doubt would have better access to the best science) and nothing is not permitted. Get them to sign a central register that a trusted independent body holds and testing is to ensure that the drugs are on the register and anything in an athlete’s system not registered gets an automatic ban. No appeal as the register is there to ensure that all drugs are known and accounted for and anything else is just negligence and stupidity. So none of this I got kissed by cocaine lips or I put my mum’s cancer drugs into my dinner by mistake. Do away with TUE’s. Either make Salbutamol legal or don’t. Me, I’d make it legal.







I am not angry at Froome barry, I am angry at the system as I see more tests overturned than actually not overturned and because of that the system and process needs to be abolished. It doesn’t work. I know my idea might seem radical and gun ho, but I would rather an open system in whereby all athletes are held responsible for what goes in their system rather than far-fetched excuses and coincidental events.

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:28 am

Tenez wrote:
barrystar wrote:Quite - it is perfectly acceptable to decide that you don't like what you see, or to dislike the whole concept of TUE - and then stop following the sport or campaign for a change, but it is not acceptable to say that XX is a cheat unless XX has had an opportunity to respond to a fair process.  A lot of the reaction is from people who feel deprived of a scalp.  I get why Sky is unpopular and I also understand why there is suspicion of TUE, but not at the cost of throwing fair procedure out of the window.
Nah....completely disagree with that. In an ideal world, yes it makes sense. But this is not an ideal world Barry, far from it. UCI is, historically, a corrupt organisation. They obey today to the same financial pressures of the past. They are just getting better (or worse imo actually) at protecting their sport.

You have got be so gullible to believe whatever comes out of it after their past.
That's what I find depressing with the human race, they never learn! Barry tomorrow Bush and Blair (or their successors) were to "legally" justify another invasion of a 3rd world country, you would bite again!
As smart and educated as one might be, if he/she has no discernement skills, he is pretty much a stuffed turkey!

We've been round the houses on this one - your 'discernment skills' have lead you to the conlcusion that certain organisations and people are irredeemably dishonest and cheats, whilst others are not, (with a dose of anti-West contrarian) and that anyone who disagrees, even if they do so whilst expressing varying degrees of wariness and skepticism, is a naive fanboy.  I'd be happy to debate on tricky matters such as were various lines fall and how rules should address what happens in the penumbra, but it's not possible on this particular issue sadly.

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:35 am

Tenez wrote:
barrystar wrote:Quite - it is perfectly acceptable to decide that you don't like what you see, or to dislike the whole concept of TUE - and then stop following the sport or campaign for a change, but it is not acceptable to say that XX is a cheat unless XX has had an opportunity to respond to a fair process.  A lot of the reaction is from people who feel deprived of a scalp.  I get why Sky is unpopular and I also understand why there is suspicion of TUE, but not at the cost of throwing fair procedure out of the window.
Nah....completely disagree with that. In an ideal world, yes it makes sense. But this is not an ideal world Barry, far from it. UCI is, historically, a corrupt organisation. They obey today to the same financial pressures of the past. They are just getting better (or worse imo actually) at protecting their sport.

You have got be so gullible to believe whatever comes out of it after their past.
That's what I find depressing with the human race, they never learn! Barry tomorrow Bush and Blair (or their successors) were to "legally" justify another invasion of a 3rd world country, you would bite again!
As smart and educated as one might be, if he/she has no discernement skills, he is pretty much a stuffed turkey!
But that road takes you to abolishing Juries, trials and law and just going with the discernment skills of whoever is in charge. It's been tried and doesn't produce the least-harm outcome.

bogbrush

Posts : 2277
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:49 am



A) The game is designed to fail. Look away from science for a second. A flaw in the process, not the science, but the process means then the whole thing is discredited. So even if there was evidence, the science can’t be looked at from perspective in say the area wasn’t sterilized to high standards, despite samples potentially being sealed or from protective coverings on footwear not being worn. So I agree yes there needs to be a fair process, but with so many elements that could trip one up before we get to the science and looking at the test results, it would be deemed un-credible. If conclusive rates were not so high, no-one could ever get a decision overturned, however it’s one of ensuring accuracy and certainty, but if you do the math, 1% is easier to overturn than say 5%. I accept there are many exceptional cases and each one is unique due to our biology and chemical make-up, but in some cases some really push the thresholds of permitted levels.

I think that the point of the various requirements you are referring to is to give Labs something that they can stick to and avoid challenges to the procedure, to keep the focus on the substance - otherwise in each case you are left with identifying exactly what happened to the specimen and then deciding whether, weighing everything up in the balance, what happened was 'OK' - so you have to re-invent the wheel every time someone challenges a finding.  To avoid that you give the Lab a procedure they must follow - clothing, shoes, temperature &c &c - probably building in a good margin for error, and on the assumption they are competent and can do what is required of them, you reduce the areas of potential challenge.  If a Lab can't comply with the procedure they end up handing a technical defence to the athlete, perhaps not a very meritorious one.  That is hugely regrettable, but any other way is close to unworkable.  The Lab knows the stakes and it's up to them to play ball if they deserve accreditation.

B) I say legalise drugs. Controversial as it sounds, I think that’s the only way in my view a level playing field is better achieved (those with money no doubt would have better access to the best science) and nothing is not permitted. Get them to sign a central register that a trusted independent body holds and testing is to ensure that the drugs are on the register and anything in an athlete’s system not registered gets an automatic ban. No appeal as the register is there to ensure that all drugs are known and accounted for and anything else is just negligence and stupidity. So none of this I got kissed by cocaine lips or I put my mum’s cancer drugs into my dinner by mistake. Do away with TUE’s. Either make Salbutamol legal or don’t. Me, I’d make it legal.

That's a point worth discussing; I can see where you are coming from, but ultimately I don't think sports or the public will buy it - and as I currently stand that includes me.  I have a niece who is close to GB level in middle-distance running, she is in her teens.  She probably won't 'make it', but she still enjoys her running.  Others are beginning to stand out from the pack, inevitably some are more talented and she understands that, with others there are suspicion that they have given into temptation. Would you want your child to pursue a sport whereby he/she felt that they needed to take drugs that could wreck their future health for the sake of a few years of glory.  I wouldn't, and I'm not alone - if that feeling became widespread competitive sport would start to die or be left to the dopers (who most people would regard as 'cheats' whatever the rules), not just at the top level, all the way down.  In the end it's only a niche market that wants to watch or be associated with such stuff (i.e. body-building) - not enough to sustain these sports current.

I am not angry at Froome barry, I am angry at the system as I see more tests overturned than actually not overturned and because of that the system and process needs to be abolished. It doesn’t work. I know my idea might seem radical and gun ho, but I would rather an open system in whereby all athletes are held responsible for what goes in their system rather than far-fetched excuses and coincidental events.

We have similar frustrations - I think our main difference is that you want to try a 'simple' and radical approach, whilst I accept that these matters are going to be complicated and believe that 'radical' approaches create their own problems such that we need to strive to improve what we have incrementally and have to cope with setbacks and deal with the imperfections by calibrating our responses.


Last edited by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:49 am

bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
barrystar wrote:Quite - it is perfectly acceptable to decide that you don't like what you see, or to dislike the whole concept of TUE - and then stop following the sport or campaign for a change, but it is not acceptable to say that XX is a cheat unless XX has had an opportunity to respond to a fair process.  A lot of the reaction is from people who feel deprived of a scalp.  I get why Sky is unpopular and I also understand why there is suspicion of TUE, but not at the cost of throwing fair procedure out of the window.
Nah....completely disagree with that. In an ideal world, yes it makes sense. But this is not an ideal world Barry, far from it. UCI is, historically, a corrupt organisation. They obey today to the same financial pressures of the past. They are just getting better (or worse imo actually) at protecting their sport.

You have got be so gullible to believe whatever comes out of it after their past.
That's what I find depressing with the human race, they never learn! Barry tomorrow Bush and Blair (or their successors) were to "legally" justify another invasion of a 3rd world country, you would bite again!
As smart and educated as one might be, if he/she has no discernement skills, he is pretty much a stuffed turkey!
But that road takes you to abolishing Juries, trials and law and just going with the discernment skills of whoever is in charge. It's been tried and doesn't produce the least-harm outcome.

I don't offer a solution. There is no solution to people's credulity. The world has always been corrupt and always will be because people are gullible and the smarter ones know to exploit that credulity.

However as a human I learn to discern. Some are really slow and poor at that.

Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:51 am

I will still enjoy Froome being covered in spit and urine in that TDF. Those things will happen for a reason. Likewise those things won't happen to Federer for the same reasons.


Last edited by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total

Tenez

Posts : 19319
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:57 am

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
barrystar wrote:Quite - it is perfectly acceptable to decide that you don't like what you see, or to dislike the whole concept of TUE - and then stop following the sport or campaign for a change, but it is not acceptable to say that XX is a cheat unless XX has had an opportunity to respond to a fair process.  A lot of the reaction is from people who feel deprived of a scalp.  I get why Sky is unpopular and I also understand why there is suspicion of TUE, but not at the cost of throwing fair procedure out of the window.
Nah....completely disagree with that. In an ideal world, yes it makes sense. But this is not an ideal world Barry, far from it. UCI is, historically, a corrupt organisation. They obey today to the same financial pressures of the past. They are just getting better (or worse imo actually) at protecting their sport.

You have got be so gullible to believe whatever comes out of it after their past.
That's what I find depressing with the human race, they never learn! Barry tomorrow Bush and Blair (or their successors) were to "legally" justify another invasion of a 3rd world country, you would bite again!
As smart and educated as one might be, if he/she has no discernement skills, he is pretty much a stuffed turkey!
But that road takes you to abolishing Juries, trials and law and just going with the discernment skills of whoever is in charge. It's been tried and doesn't produce the least-harm outcome.

I don't offer a solution. There is no solution to people's credulity. The world has always been corrupt and always will be because people are gullible and the smarter ones know to exploit that credulity.

However as a human I learn to discern. Some are really slow and poor at that.

Ok - could you identify any result of your discernment process which has resulted in you trusting an organisation/person/procedure (other than Federer of course Winking) so we have an understanding of how it works beyond the field of your approach to drugs in sport, which I'd summarise as, the West, WADA, UCI, ITF, and TUE bad; Russia unfairly traduced?

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:00 pm

Tenez wrote:I still will enjoy Froome being covered in spit and urine. Those things will happen for a reason. Likewise those things won't happen to Federer for the same reasons.

Would you enjoy it if he was punched leading to injury and withdrawal (like Merkx); or do we draw a line at the sort of justice the mob is allowed to mete out? If a line needs to be drawn, how does your discernment process decide what is and what is not appropriate conduct for the administering of mob justice?

barrystar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:09 pm

barrystar wrote:


A) The game is designed to fail. Look away from science for a second. A flaw in the process, not the science, but the process means then the whole thing is discredited. So even if there was evidence, the science can’t be looked at from perspective in say the area wasn’t sterilized to high standards, despite samples potentially being sealed or from protective coverings on footwear not being worn. So I agree yes there needs to be a fair process, but with so many elements that could trip one up before we get to the science and looking at the test results, it would be deemed un-credible. If conclusive rates were not so high, no-one could ever get a decision overturned, however it’s one of ensuring accuracy and certainty, but if you do the math, 1% is easier to overturn than say 5%. I accept there are many exceptional cases and each one is unique due to our biology and chemical make-up, but in some cases some really push the thresholds of permitted levels.

I think that the point of the various requirements you are referring to is to give Labs something that they can stick to and avoid challenges to the procedure, to keep the focus on the substance - otherwise in each case you are left with identifying exactly what happened to the specimen and then deciding whether, weighing everything up in the balance, what happened was 'OK' - so you have to re-invent the wheel every time someone challenges a finding.  To avoid that you give the Lab a procedure they must follow - clothing, shoes, temperature &c &c - probably building in a good margin for error, and on the assumption they are competent and can do what is required of them, you reduce the areas of potential challenge.  If a Lab can't comply with the procedure they end up handing a technical defence to the athlete, perhaps not a very meritorious one.  That is hugely regrettable, but any other way is close to unworkable.  The Lab knows the stakes and it's up to them to play ball if they deserve accreditation.

B) I say legalise drugs. Controversial as it sounds, I think that’s the only way in my view a level playing field is better achieved (those with money no doubt would have better access to the best science) and nothing is not permitted. Get them to sign a central register that a trusted independent body holds and testing is to ensure that the drugs are on the register and anything in an athlete’s system not registered gets an automatic ban. No appeal as the register is there to ensure that all drugs are known and accounted for and anything else is just negligence and stupidity. So none of this I got kissed by cocaine lips or I put my mum’s cancer drugs into my dinner by mistake. Do away with TUE’s. Either make Salbutamol legal or don’t. Me, I’d make it legal.

That's a point worth discussing; I can see where you are coming from, but ultimately I don't think sports or the public will buy it - and as I currently stand that includes me.  I have a niece who is close to GB level in middle-distance running, she is in her teens.  She probably won't 'make it', but she still enjoys her running.  Others are beginning to stand out from the pack, inevitably some are more talented and she understands that, with others there are suspicion that they have given into temptation. Would you want your child to pursue a sport whereby he/she felt that they needed to take drugs that could wreck their future health for the sake of a few years of glory.  I wouldn't, and I'm not alone - if that feeling became widespread competitive sport would start to die or be left to the dopers (who most people would regard as 'cheats' whatever the rules), not just at the top level, all the way down.  In the end it's only a niche market that wants to watch or be associated with such stuff (i.e. body-building) - not enough to sustain these sports current.

I am not angry at Froome barry, I am angry at the system as I see more tests overturned than actually not overturned and because of that the system and process needs to be abolished. It doesn’t work. I know my idea might seem radical and gun ho, but I would rather an open system in whereby all athletes are held responsible for what goes in their system rather than far-fetched excuses and coincidental events.

We have similar frustrations - I think our main difference is that you want to try a 'simple' and radical approach, whilst I accept that these matters are going to be complicated and believe that 'radical' approaches create their own problems such that we need to strive to improve what we have incrementally and have to cope with setbacks and deal with the imperfections by calibrating our responses.

Apologies barry for my lack of patience with the multi quote function and that of my earlier post.

1) My point is that before a test and the science can be heard, the lab equipment or environments can nullify the test. So regardless of any findings or abnormalities, it's defunct. So my point is someone who may not be clean, can get away with it because of a technical irregularity. You would be surprised how many times that has caught out the police or army. Plus those who set the lab rules and procedures are not necessarily the ones who then follow it and that leads to a word I hate more than whatever and that is miscommunication! however, it does go to BB's point about fitness for purpose.

2) I think they can barry. Especially whereby transparency and self-regulation is evident. That for me would give athletes and the governing bodies more credibility in fact. If anything, drug taking then becomes a question to the athlete "do I have the edge from taking this drug alone" as it would be public and the competition can see. That's why for me it would work. It can even be seen as a deterrent because athletes might feel there is nothing to separate them from the field. for me enforcing transparency works a treat especially if you then have a punishment for drugs or substances not listed as the register (even retrospectively within a time frame) allows for athletes to be open. The current system does nothing but create confusion, uncertainty, ignorance and immorality. As Captain America said in Civil War "Sometimes the safest pair of hands are our own" and I feel that is the case with athletes with a central transparent register. Puts them in more control.

3) But I feel you are confident in the current system despite clearly shaken small doubts with current and previous cases which may have caused your frustration. I get a sense of it's not perfect, but it will do, where for me it's been tried and tested and I still feel the system doesn't do what it should.

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:12 pm

Tenez wrote:I will still enjoy Froome being covered in spit and urine in that TDF. Those things will happen for a reason. Likewise those things won't happen to Federer for the same reasons.


It's a bit much.

There are ways in which affinity to a person can be conveyed without being so primitive.

legendkillar

Posts : 2457
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 21 of 22 Previous  1 ... 12 ... 20, 21, 22  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum