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Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

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Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by legendkillar on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:55 pm

This past couple of months post the WTF I have toyed with a romantic idea. That was that Federer's last Slam should be the US Open. The 10's have taught us one thing. Roger despite his age now is still a consistent force at the Slams. His record reads:

AO: W, SF, SF

FO: QF, F, SF

W: QF, QF, W

USO: SF, SF, QF

Any player in the top 10 past or present would kill for such form and would take that if offered before their careers begun. However in most corners, tennis purests and Fed supporters would feel that such a record for a player like Federer is short of the mark. There is no doubt that Roger will hit a decline. We are talking small margins, but with today's players and the punishing physical boundaries they play in are even too much for the most talented of them all. It is strange however that his most consistent Slam below Wimbledon is now proving the most difficult for him to succeed in. Strange given his record is Lendl-esq except there are more titles. 6 straight finals. Similar to him and Wimbledon. 7 straight finals. However after a barren spell on the Grass he succeeded once more at Wimbledon to equal Sampras's record. Many fans feel that may well be his last taste of Slam success. For me that doesn't sit so well. I feel he has 1 more in him and importantly I would love for it to be the US Open. Fitting end to such a fitting career. However it is proving more difficult. Take Sampras. Post his 1996 succes he made a SF and 2 finals before triumphing for his final Slam victory. Question remains can Federer win a 6th US Open and stand alone with the most titles at New York? His career deserves at least a Slam event that he conquers by himself. The US Open poses many problems to Federer at this moment in time.

1) The courts. Without a doubt Arthur Ashe is the slowest court at Flushing Meadows. It does make you wonder how many he could've won had Louis Armstrong remained the main show court for the US Open. All the time conditions are slower, makes it less likely of a Federer success.

2) Novak Djokovic. At this moment in time he his the best HC player. Results outside the Slams vary slightly. Federer winning at IW, Cinncy, Paris, London. However since the 10's Djokovic has appeared in 5 of the 6 HC Slam finals and won 3 of them. Also he has won 6 out of 18 HC Masters Events which is the most of the current crop with Federer only winning 4.

3) Scheduling. With the US Open being the backdrop of the tennis calendar, being in tip top condition is paramount and the conditioning and scheduling that Federer mastered between 2004-2007 is something just about every tennis pro has replicated. Nadal hasn't replicated 2010 and Djokovic failed to live up to 2011. Form is something so difficult to maintain and keep on top of that it is not surprising more have not done the 3 Slam a year feat more than once.

I do have a question. If Federer wins at Flushing Meadows in 2013 or 2014, will we see the great man walk away in true champion form?

Discuss

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by ... on Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:13 pm

I have rewatched WTF final during the Christmas break carefully.
I don't think Federer has the answer for Novak on hard courts any more.

I have watched the highlights of Novak's match against Ferrer today and noticed he's really worked on his inside in forehand, he was so sharp with it, same shot Federer was hurting him with in that O2 final.

Novak has not yet reached his peak, but he's getting close. His approach shots are now where they should be, and most of his volleys.
Once he gains confidence at the net, he'll be even more difficult to beat.
The area that's left for him to work on is his backhand slice, but that particular shot is not that pivotal for his game, anyway, however, it would be good if he could add it to his arsenal in the attacking department, although I did see him use it very well in 2012 occassionally.

For me, Fed is the second best player on hard courts at the moment and I expect him in the AO final playing Nole.

Having said all this, miracles do happen (Murray winning USO this year), so a set of favourable circumstances could happen for Federer although I see his best slam chances in Wimbledon.

True tennis glory has never been wrought in Flushing Meadows but SW19 Centre Court, and that's where we'll probably see Federer ride off into the sunset one day....

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by ... on Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:24 pm

legendkillar wrote:This past couple of months post the WTF I have toyed with a romantic idea. That was that Federer's last Slam should be the US Open.

BTW, what makes you think Federer's last slam should be USO?

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by Tenez on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:45 pm

Good post LK. NOt sure what to add reallly but I am convinced that the win of a slam will not determine the end of Fed's career. If anything teh opposite, a win might just extend his career further than planned. However early exits will have big impacts on his motivation and more likely to push him over retirement.

I think Pete retired at teh right time but in his case he knew USO02 was a one off and that he was most unlikely to repeat that. He was thrashed the year before by Safin and Hewitt and thrashed at Wimby 02 by Bastle.

Fed will not have that luck to win a slam cause everything clicks in. He is fighting gladiators and there is no easy win and winning a slam will simply tell him he can win more.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by paulcz on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:57 pm

How long will Fed play and when he walks away will in my opinion depend only on if he still believes that is able to win a GS. When he learns that it is not in his hands, then he will ride off definitely. He is not and can not be a player to play the second league on pro tour. His best chance to win a GS is Wimbledon. If he stays healthy he has a chance, but I do not believe that Fed will win another GS except Wimby, unless the draw or circumstances will go with him. Nole and Andy are stronger than before and youth will want to beat him as they will know that there will be no many chances to meet him.

I would appreciate if his last won GS could be in the final with Morybundus, but that one is able to go only to FO final if he does not retire before Fed.

Fed will struggle more and more with his SHBH against big hitters, the timing and speed will grind his BH in a larger extent. Faster surface and balls would help him a lot.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by legendkillar on Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:44 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
legendkillar wrote:This past couple of months post the WTF I have toyed with a romantic idea. That was that Federer's last Slam should be the US Open.

BTW, what makes you think Federer's last slam should be USO?

I just think being the last Slam in the calendar year and one which would put him outright as the most successful male player there would be fitting.

Looking through your earlier analysis I agree with just about all of it.

I do think Djokovic is certainly more than a match for Federer. However he does employ the Nadal treatment in wearing the great man down, however he is the best mover on the HC by a country mile and on quicker surfaces this allows Djokovic for me to be a much the nightmare with returning. It is no surprise he is the best returner in the game and that even in rallies he can regain position much better than the rest of the field. Nadal can't produce the slide he does on Clay and thus is much more exposed on the HC. Whilst Federer has had Djokovic at the knell awaiting the final death stroke and Djokovic has managed to turn it around put the foot down.

I agree Federer is much better than Murray on the HC even now despite Andy's USO success. I think the trade off is Federers groundstrokes v Murray's retreiving and every time I go with the Fed groundstrokes.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by ... on Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:58 pm

In the O2 final, Novak didn't get the chance to wear Federer down. Federer was all over him like rash during the enitre match, Novak was barely able to contain him, let alone have the chance of wearing him down.
It was just a few mishits that cost Federer the match.
The indoor scenario is still on Fed's racquet.

The last game in which he breaks Fed was an unbelievable effort from Novak.

Both players played the entire match full on, and the momentum shifted several times as Fed was not able to maintain his insane level of attacking non-stop due to Novak's fantastic movement and ability to attack from a defending position.
To me that was the best match of the year, followed very closely by Rosol defeating Nadal.

Fed really wanted the title, but Nole's returning at a few crucial points was outstanding.

It really was a few points here and there.

Outdoors, in AO, def in favour of Nole, USO more even.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by legendkillar on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:08 pm

Well the O2 is quicker than Rod Laver Arena and Armstrong Court. Take Cinncy which is faster than Miami or IW. Federer is much more in the match and the game more so on his racque so to speak and for Djokovic he has to become the aggressor. He has the game to do so, though it is not one I think Djokovic could play each and every match.

I think all the time Djokovic is in Federer's half of the draw really limits the chance he has of winning a Slam at AO or USO.

Be interesting to see the AO draw in 2013 Big Grin

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by luvsports! on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:16 pm

i always think feds will beat novak at the US but not at Aus

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by ... on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:23 pm

legendkillar wrote:

I think all the time Djokovic is in Federer's half of the draw really limits the chance he has of winning a Slam at AO or USO.

Be interesting to see the AO draw in 2013

he,he, LK, those dark ages are gone FOR EVER.
Firstly, Nole is number one, so he can't be in anyoneone's half any more, only other players can be in HIS half
Secondly, Fed is number tow, which means he heads the bottom half, i.e. they can't meet before the final and long may it continue.

The tricky one is Murray, who if he makes it to semis should be difficult for either of the two as his style of play is energy sapping and would be a disadvantage for either Nole and especially Fed.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by ... on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:24 pm

luvsports! wrote:i always think feds will beat novak at the US

It's been a long time since that happened

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by luvsports! on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:44 pm

still leads their US meetings 3-2 Winking

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by ... on Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:08 pm

luvsports! wrote:still leads their US meetings 3-2


USO is where their chances are most evenly balanced, that's for sure, I have enjoyed all their matches there.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by luvsports! on Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:15 pm

good point, i mean at aus novak is 6-0 in sets despite both times being fairly close. I feel novak's strongest surface is a slow hard court 2bh, feel free to disagree.

At the US, feds in 07 could of easily lost that match in 3 sets!

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by ... on Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:22 pm

luvsports! wrote:good point, i mean at aus novak is 6-0 in sets despite both times being fairly close. I feel novak's strongest surface is a slow hard court 2bh, feel free to disagree.

Why would I disagree? Medium slow (not completely slow) hard courts are Novak's bread and butter, that's why he's been so good and successful at AO!
On faster courts he has to attack more (which I prefer btw) against fast players.

I do wish hard courts played a bit faster anyway, they would certainly cut out the dross and Nadal would have never won USO that way. To me it's a complete travesty!

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by luvsports! on Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:25 pm

ok if his fav is medium slow, does that mean novak would have won at a fast US open? I think i can guess the answer but i think its a noteworthy point.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by ... on Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:29 pm

Novak can win on ANY fast court because of his phenomenal movement.
His game is made for hard courts, just like Fed's is for grass.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by paulcz on Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:48 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Novak can win on ANY fast court because of his phenomenal movement.
His game is made for hard courts, just like Fed's is for grass.

Agree. I think Nole is the absolutely the most versatile player on the circuit at the moment. Hard courts are his favourite, no doubts. But he has practically the same chance to win FO against Morybundus as at Wimbledon against Fed. As to Wimbledon, that depends on serves. If Nole can serve more consistently, then he has a good chance due to that his returning is better of Feds. If Fed does not serve very well then I give Nole a better chance to win it. The game just unwinds from the serve there.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:37 am

Good article LK. Out of the 3 points you brought out, the 1st one is the most crucial for him. We can now see his disappointment clearly from his interviews after the WTF final loss. Though US open officials may not agree that there has been any deliberate change in the court and its pace has remained consistent since 2003, but I don't believe it. There are far too many players noticing significant change in court pace to believe the officials.


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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:43 am

noleisthebest wrote:In the O2 final, Novak didn't get the chance to wear Federer down. Federer was all over him like rash during the enitre match, Novak was barely able to contain him, let alone have the chance of wearing him down.
It was just a few mishits that cost Federer the match.
The indoor scenario is still on Fed's racquet.


But Djokovic himself would agree to LK's point. The strategy is all the same ala Nadal-esq. All the time.

"He's somebody that is very aggressive, that likes to finish points very quickly," Djokovic said. "But I managed to get a lot of shots back into the court, being passive, a couple meters behind the baseline. ... That was one of the goals tonight, to always try to get him into the longer rallies where I think I had the better chance."


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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:59 am

paulcz wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Novak can win on ANY fast court because of his phenomenal movement.
His game is made for hard courts, just like Fed's is for grass.

Agree. I think Nole is the absolutely the most versatile player on the circuit at the moment. Hard courts are his favourite, no doubts. But he has practically the same chance to win FO against Morybundus as at Wimbledon against Fed. As to Wimbledon, that depends on serves. If Nole can serve more consistently, then he has a good chance due to that his returning is better of Feds. If Fed does not serve very well then I give Nole a better chance to win it. The game just unwinds from the serve there.

How do you say that? Most of his good playing career has been when the courts have been slowed down. This year the fast courts of Dubai, he couldn't even contain Murray and was very comprehensibly beaten, got a bagel at Cincinnati ( not even as fast as Dubai this year ). Djokovic's movement is phenomenal, but that's in defensive play behind the baseline. I don't see he gets "phenomenally" quickly into position for attacking play. Its good, but it thats not what he primarily wins him matches.

If the traditionally fasts courts had remained fast, the face of tennis would have been completely different.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by Tenez on Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:16 am

Agree Rotla. With such a poor BH slice, grip, loopy FH and volley Djoko has not the talent to win on faster surfaces nowadays.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by luvsports! on Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:26 am

is murray a better fast court player? does that mean he is more talented Winking

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by Tenez on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:18 am

No. I do not see Murray as a particularly talented player. WIthout his retrieving skills he woudl be nowhere the top 4 either.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by luvsports! on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:28 am

but if we go by raiders comment that he was comprehensively beaten by murray on a fast dubai court, does that not make him a better fast court player? or just a one off?

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by ... on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:31 am

First , I have to apologise as I made a typo in the qote Paul used, I didn't mean to use the adjective "fast" but "hard" for courts there.
As I said earlier, Novak's best surface for playing are medium slow courts.
By that I certainly don't mean he can't beat anyone incl Fed on FAST courts, after all, he beat him in O2, which before Nole won it, seemed to be considered Fed's ideal hard court (i.e. fast)

Rotla, regarding Dubai, Nole has won it THREE TIMES IN A ROW before this year, and he demolished Federer in straight sets final there last year.

I would recommend you to watch his transition game more closely from now on as his forward movement is actually brilliant. He only needs to polish a few types of volley and he'll be off and away.


The faster hard courts become more attacking Nole plays and that's what I like when I watch him anyway.

As for the loopy forehand, I don't see it as such. I agree about bH slice, but it's not as horrid as you like to make it out Tenez.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by gallery play on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:46 am

On a fast court Murray usually wins. Just check the h2h.
Imo Djoko depends as much as Murray on his retrieving skills, even though he appears to attack more often.
As for talent: Murray has better hands but Djoko is a better athlete, which is why he topples him in the ranking

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by gallery play on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:49 am

noleisthebest wrote:

Rotla, regarding Dubai, Nole has won it THREE TIMES IN A ROW before this year, and he demolished Federer in straight sets final there last year.


Nitb: Nole won it when it was slow, this year it was surprisingly fast

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by Tenez on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:51 am

gallery play wrote:Murray has better hands but Djoko is a better athlete, which is why he topples him in the ranking
And I ave to agree with that too.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by Tenez on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:55 am

noleisthebest wrote:First , I have to apologise as I made a typo in the qote Paul used, I didn't mean to use the adjective "fast" but "hard" for courts there.
As I said earlier, Novak's best surface for playing are medium slow courts.
By that I certainly don't mean he can't beat anyone incl Fed on FAST courts, after all, he beat him in O2, which before Nole won it, seemed to be considered Fed's ideal hard court (i.e. fast)

Rotla, regarding Dubai, Nole has won it THREE TIMES IN A ROW before this year, and he demolished Federer in straight sets final there last year.

I would recommend you to watch his transition game more closely from now on as his forward movement is actually brilliant. He only needs to polish a few types of volley and he'll be off and away.


The faster hard courts become more attacking Nole plays and that's what I like when I watch him anyway.

As for the loopy forehand, I don't see it as such. I agree about bH slice, but it's not as horrid as you like to make it out Tenez.

t's not loopy a la Nadal but there is a lot of wrist action...and teh proof is in the pudding. If he had a flatter FH his rallies woudl be much shorter...however he is the player who covers most ground per match on average and that can only be done by "keeping the ball in court". Even he admitted in the WTF that keeping the ball in court is what he had to do.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by gallery play on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:03 am

Tenez wrote:
gallery play wrote:Murray has better hands but Djoko is a better athlete, which is why he topples him in the ranking
And I ave to agree with that too.

Cheers T

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:17 am

luvsports! wrote:is murray a better fast court player?
Now, its difficult to know given how rare are the times when a court is actually fast. Both Djokovic and Murray have played mostly in times when most courts were slowed down, some to ridiculous limits. Naturally they have moulded their games to slow condition with defensive play. Hard to know who would do better on faster courts.

It was one occasion this year and there Murray looked absolutely dominant. Could be just one match. Need to see more to draw any conclusions. But looking at how close his matches are against Djokovic irrespective of the outcome, I do see Murray won't at least be poor fast court player compared to Djokovic.

My reply was for nitb's point that "Novak can win on ANY fast court because of his phenomenal movement.".

does that mean he is more talented

I don't know, both of them use mostly use their defensive skills to win. Murray has improved his game, more so his mind which was often a deciding factor in their encounters.



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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by paulcz on Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:58 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
paulcz wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Novak can win on ANY fast court because of his phenomenal movement.
His game is made for hard courts, just like Fed's is for grass.

Agree. I think Nole is the absolutely the most versatile player on the circuit at the moment. Hard courts are his favourite, no doubts. But he has practically the same chance to win FO against Morybundus as at Wimbledon against Fed. As to Wimbledon, that depends on serves. If Nole can serve more consistently, then he has a good chance due to that his returning is better of Feds. If Fed does not serve very well then I give Nole a better chance to win it. The game just unwinds from the serve there.

How do you say that? Most of his good playing career has been when the courts have been slowed down. This year the fast courts of Dubai, he couldn't even contain Murray and was very comprehensibly beaten, got a bagel at Cincinnati ( not even as fast as Dubai this year ). Djokovic's movement is phenomenal, but that's in defensive play behind the baseline. I don't see he gets "phenomenally" quickly into position for attacking play. Its good, but it thats not what he primarily wins him matches.

If the traditionally fasts courts had remained fast, the face of tennis would have been completely different.

Nole is a different player than he used to be two years ago. He has improved his transition and net game a lot recently. Except Fed from the top players he comes to the net more often (incl. Murray, Ferrer, Delpo, Berdych, Morybundus). It shows his amount net approaches and his winning ratios on the net are about 70-75%, which is really good (Fed is about 80-85%). So, despite his superb defensive job he is a player who comes with Fed more often to the net from the TOP6. No doubts, he is the most complete player at the present, for sure. If he can serve consistently (not the case of Cincinnati), he is the biggest threat for Fed on the fast surfaces atm. His improved transition to the net is really visible these days. Not only Berd says that to play with Nole is a brain teaser.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by paulcz on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:16 pm

Tenez wrote:
gallery play wrote:Murray has better hands but Djoko is a better athlete, which is why he topples him in the ranking
And I ave to agree with that too.

Seemingly yes, but I can not agree that Murray´s hand are better of Nole´s. Andy understood well, that if he has a chance against Fed and Nole, he needs to step up more into the court and play faster. That is right, but it is still very passive. His hitting is more or less the same, i.e. without any higher swing with minimum approaches to the net. He plays the most stereotype defensive game on the circuit atm. Nole in comparison with him changes the game rhytm pretty often, he gives a variable swing from both wings and also plays big hits, but what is the most striking he goes more often at the net. So, Nole has more game variabilities, which goes in hand with hands.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by ... on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:20 pm

Paul,
Murray is more talented than Nole, has softer hands, better backhand and return....all the tennis pundits have said so
I'll just keep enjoying Nole's great game and variety and let Murray win all blog and pundit debates.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by paulcz on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:39 pm

Tenez wrote:
t's not loopy a la Nadal but there is a lot of wrist action...and teh proof is in the pudding. If he had a flatter FH his rallies woudl be much shorter...however he is the player who covers most ground per match on average and that can only be done by "keeping the ball in court". Even he admitted in the WTF that keeping the ball in court is what he had to do.

Yes Ten, Nole´s FH uses his wrist quite a lot, which can be a trouble sometimes, but also an advantage. I have read that Nole´s FH is just due to his variability one of the most effective FH ever (of course with Fed´s FH ). When you want to play heavy crosses then you need to use a wristle to speed it up the pace of the ball with a fast bounce, so we can not say that Nole´s wrist usage is bad thing for his FH.

Fed is one of the fastest player with the sharpest FH and the best net game ever, so there is no player who could outplay him at the net. There is nothing secret to hear from players how to beat Fed, so Nole is no exception by saying this.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by paulcz on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:45 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Paul,
Murray is more talented than Nole, has softer hands, better backhand and return....all the tennis pundits have said so
I'll just keep enjoying Nole's great game and variety and let Murray win all blog and pundit debates.

Of course I do not know if some tennis fans look on TV with opened or closed eyes

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by luvsports! on Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:01 pm

paulcz wrote:
Tenez wrote:
t's not loopy a la Nadal but there is a lot of wrist action...and teh proof is in the pudding. If he had a flatter FH his rallies woudl be much shorter...however he is the player who covers most ground per match on average and that can only be done by "keeping the ball in court". Even he admitted in the WTF that keeping the ball in court is what he had to do.

Yes Ten, Nole´s FH uses his wrist quite a lot, which can be a trouble sometimes, but also an advantage. I have read that Nole´s FH is just due to his variability one of the most effective FH ever (of course with Fed´s FH ). When you want to play heavy crosses then you need to use a wristle to speed it up the pace of the ball with a fast bounce, so we can not say that Nole´s wrist usage is bad thing for his FH.

Fed is one of the fastest player with the sharpest FH and the best net game ever, so there is no player who could outplay him at the net. There is nothing secret to hear from players how to beat Fed, so Nole is no exception by saying this.

I don't agree that his fh is one of the most effective ever, far from it.
I think llodra is a better volleyer than feds and over the years there have been better volleyers.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:16 pm

paulcz wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Paul,
Murray is more talented than Nole, has softer hands, better backhand and return....all the tennis pundits have said so
I'll just keep enjoying Nole's great game and variety and let Murray win all blog and pundit debates.

Of course I do not know if some tennis fans look on TV with opened or closed eyes

Closed eye of course. In fact I have never ever seen a tennis match.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by summerblues on Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:57 pm

Ah, after a month of hibernation, tennis is back, boards are coming alive. AO part of the season - going to bed by 10pm so I can get up at 2am to watch Rafa thrash Cilic (maybe not that particular one this year, but you get the point). And yes, some of it is done with eyes (almost) closed.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by paulcz on Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:59 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
paulcz wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Paul,
Murray is more talented than Nole, has softer hands, better backhand and return....all the tennis pundits have said so
I'll just keep enjoying Nole's great game and variety and let Murray win all blog and pundit debates.

Of course I do not know if some tennis fans look on TV with opened or closed eyes

Closed eye of course. In fact I have never ever seen a tennis match.

Hey Rotla, that was just a friendly banter

Today´s tennis is so tough that a talent plays minimal role in it. I remember that Ivan Lendl said that the talent plays role abt 10% or so and everything else is only work.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by paulcz on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:19 pm

luvsports! wrote:
paulcz wrote:
Tenez wrote:
t's not loopy a la Nadal but there is a lot of wrist action...and teh proof is in the pudding. If he had a flatter FH his rallies woudl be much shorter...however he is the player who covers most ground per match on average and that can only be done by "keeping the ball in court". Even he admitted in the WTF that keeping the ball in court is what he had to do.

Yes Ten, Nole´s FH uses his wrist quite a lot, which can be a trouble sometimes, but also an advantage. I have read that Nole´s FH is just due to his variability one of the most effective FH ever (of course with Fed´s FH ). When you want to play heavy crosses then you need to use a wristle to speed it up the pace of the ball with a fast bounce, so we can not say that Nole´s wrist usage is bad thing for his FH.

Fed is one of the fastest player with the sharpest FH and the best net game ever, so there is no player who could outplay him at the net. There is nothing secret to hear from players how to beat Fed, so Nole is no exception by saying this.

I don't agree that his fh is one of the most effective ever, far from it.
I think llodra is a better volleyer than feds and over the years there have been better volleyers.

Luv, found Nole´s FH

http://www.optimumtennis.net/novak-djokovic-forehand.htm

Re Llodra and Fed volleying is hardly comparable. Fed plays more often against better and faster oponents and needs to be much careful for passing.One thing is a volley beauty and second one is the efficiency. If you compare their winning net approaches Fed rules for sure.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by luvsports! on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:26 pm

we shall agree to disagree smiley

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by ... on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:53 pm

Problem with dissecting a player by comparing shots, it really is a waste of time as it proves nothing.
It's the game I look at as a whole and what a player does with his shots.
Look at Dolgopolov's briliant forehand and what's he done with it?

Same for the argument that Nole is a "better athlete" than Murray BUT Murray has softer hands....I mean what does that argument prove

As far as I can see, Murray's athleticism is more useful to him than Novak's is to Novak.
Murray's scrapping is better than Novak's and he uses it more than Novak, that's a crucial part of his game. In that respect he is very similar to Nadal and it's a matter of time before he starts getting more regularly injured, too esp with the weight he is carrying around.

Murray is as good with his backhand gets as Nole, plus has a bigger upper body.
Nole is a natural athlete and that's the main difference between the two, he is lighter and less prone to injury and his movement is natural rather than learnt and practised as is the case with Murray.

They all try to do the best with what they've got, and as far as I can see Murray his forehand is his weakest link as it's not a natural shot to him and is very worked. Without that forehand he'll always struggle and play the second fiddle.
He has improved it a lot, esp his CC one, but it's just a drop in the ocean in a match compared to how balanced and natural forhehand is in Federer's, Nole's and even Nadal's game.

As for soft hands....it's just a myth, pushed by pundits and commentators.
Modern tennis has cut soft hands out for good, and if you like seeing those, you'd best watch McEnroe's old clips....

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by paulcz on Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:04 pm

luvsports! wrote:we shall agree to disagree



I like one sentence from the Czech famous comedy where one soldier said about a dog „he is so ugly up to he looks so lovely“

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by paulcz on Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:22 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Problem with dissecting a player by comparing shots, it really is a waste of time as it proves nothing.
It's the game I look at as a whole and what a player does with his shots.
Look at Dolgopolov's briliant forehand and what's he done with it?

Same for the argument that Nole is a "better athlete" than Murray BUT Murray has softer hands....I mean what does that argument prove

As far as I can see, Murray's athleticism is more useful to him than Novak's is to Novak.
Murray's scrapping is better than Novak's and he uses it more than Novak, that's a crucial part of his game. In that respect he is very similar to Nadal and it's a matter of time before he starts getting more regularly injured, too esp with the weight he is carrying around.

Murray is as good with his backhand gets as Nole, plus has a bigger upper body.
Nole is a natural athlete and that's the main difference between the two, he is lighter and less prone to injury and his movement is natural rather than learnt and practised as is the case with Murray.

They all try to do the best with what they've got, and as far as I can see Murray his forehand is his weakest link as it's not a natural shot to him and is very worked. Without that forehand he'll always struggle and play the second fiddle.
He has improved it a lot, esp his CC one, but it's just a drop in the ocean in a match compared to how balanced and natural forhehand is in Federer's, Nole's and even Nadal's game.

As for soft hands....it's just a myth, pushed by pundits and commentators.
Modern tennis has cut soft hands out for good, and if you like seeing those, you'd best watch McEnroe's old clips....

Murray lacks a natural attacking instict, he just waits for an oponent UE and punches a ball and thinks that it will come. It works in a certain extent with players who do not have stamina and great hitting. I can see him to be blown out when he is running out and his game is broken up. Then he is not able to keep focus on game and lose his nerves from control. But he has improved this recently due to Ivan.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by gallery play on Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:18 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Nole is a natural athlete and that's the main difference between the two, he is lighter and less prone to injury and his movement is natural rather than learnt and practised as is the case with Murray.
You mean: Nole is the better athlete, what is what i said too..


As for soft hands....it's just a myth, pushed by pundits and commentators.
Modern tennis has cut soft hands out for good, and if you like seeing those, you'd best watch McEnroe's old clips....

Actually, sometimes Murrays' "hands" and posture does remind me of McEnroe.

Nitb, i really think you shouldn't be so upset if someone has a different view than yours on Djoko. It's Woolfie talk, seriously.

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Re: Can Roger Still Conquer Flushing Meadows?

Post by legendkillar on Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:43 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Good article LK. Out of the 3 points you brought out, the 1st one is the most crucial for him. We can now see his disappointment clearly from his interviews after the WTF final loss. Though US open officials may not agree that there has been any deliberate change in the court and its pace has remained consistent since 2003, but I don't believe it. There are far too many players noticing significant change in court pace to believe the officials.


Thanks Raiders.

I watched every Murray match and even he commented that Armstrong and the outer courts were quicker than Ashe. When he went into his matches against Lopez and Cilic it was seen that he was vulnerable to the heavier grounstrokes. Cilic literally was pasting Murray off the court until mentally and physically he got worn down. It isn't a tactic that is new.

I can't see how the organisers can say the courts have played the same since 2003.

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