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The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

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Post by laverfan Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:42 pm

Veejay wrote:Laverfan your arguments are becoming pathetic,what does that have to do with the argument about a particular type of physique?

You do not need to read such pathetic arguments and sound like a broken record. Winking

Veejay wrote:No marathon runners dont use their arms to wield 300+ gram rackets and hit 56 gm balls at 90+ mph,if you attribute this to the reasons why Nadal has such developed arms and biceps then why doesnt every single player in the draw have similar biceps or definition in their arms?
In fact looking at Federer,for someone who uses their arm to wield 300+ gram rackets whole hitting 56 gm balls at 90+ mph,his arms aren't that much more defined then someone who runs marathons.

Murray, Dabul and plethora of others, if you just look...

Veejay wrote:Now while I may say this I am not saying that automatically means a marathon runner has similar strength and skill in their arms as a tennis player

Good. We agree.

Veejay wrote:As for the distance covered,how much distance do you reckon a player covers from the start of a season to the end of the season if they are making the semi finals or better of every tournament they play is? If the answer doesnt equal long distance running then what would you classify that distance as instead?

Top 4 per slam roughly half a marathon on average because of Bo5. Masters would roughly be 70-90% (depends on specific matches).

Long distance running is a steady pace, unlike Tennis, with short sprints and stop and turn around the baseline. It is not the same as long distance running. Listen to Paganini on 'explosiveness' and then we can discuss the running aspect of Tennis again. Let us leave this virtual marathon stuff in limbo till then.

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Post by Veejay Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:44 pm

laverfan wrote:
Veejay wrote:
laverfan wrote:Catabolisation occurs because there is no alternative source of energy for the body to rely on. And steroids do not provide a source of energy, do they?

You havent given me a plausible explanation,asking me how we know Nadal doesnt do weight training doesnt give me a plausible explanation how someone can develop such a muscular physique without little to no weight training while doing that much cardio

You can continue this eternal search for a plausible explanation without me. I have nothing further to add to the muscle catabolisation topic. Bubbly

Veejay wrote:Your explanation to the other question holds no weight cause Nadal wasnt injured at the time his muscles atrophied,plus when he was injured his muscles didnt atrophy and the link Legendkiller posted suggest it could have in as little as 2 weeks

"Catabolisation occurs because there is no alternative source of energy for the body to rely on. And steroids do not provide a source of energy, do they?"

Not necessarily,catabolism can be attributed to the type exercise too.Even athletes who are using the right diet and nutrition will develop a body that is consistent with the kind of exercise youre doing

If you hit a ball with a racquet and do it repeatedly, I am pretty sure, arms build up, correct? I know of cases, where Tennis players can have asymmetrical muscular builds. Ambidextrous players develop slightly differently.

So then why doesnt every tennis players arms build up?

Not much bulk in this picture eh?

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=roger+federer&start=210&num=10&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1154&bih=513&addh=36&tbm=isch&tbnid=MRDpCSHN2PIgJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/roger-federer/&docid=FWkg4GUUmznKpM&imgurl=http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Roger-Federer-at-Wimbledo-006.jpg&w=460&h=276&ei=y1R4UMTeKI-U0QWbuIBI&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=387&sig=113819094801944464436&page=14&tbnh=148&tbnw=192&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:210,i:67&tx=102&ty=102


Not much bulk in this picture

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=djokovic&start=207&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1154&bih=513&addh=36&tbm=isch&tbnid=De4WKvuwJJ7F6M:&imgrefurl=http://www.ifood.tv/blog/novak-djokovic-diet&docid=N495-zlEmofstM&imgurl=http://thumbs.ifood.tv/files/images/editor/images/Novak%252520Djokovic%252520Diet.jpg&w=366&h=446&ei=SVV4UJevNIeo0QWEsoDYCQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=358&sig=113819094801944464436&page=14&tbnh=148&tbnw=124&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:207,i:58&tx=61&ty=68

or this one:

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=djokovic&start=238&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1154&bih=513&addh=36&tbm=isch&tbnid=FJdR1vUgGG-pDM:&imgrefurl=http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/galleries/g/8619873/the-world-s-sexiest-tennis-stars/8619976/&docid=6J59d7R0d-FXfM&imgurl=http://l.yimg.com/ea/img/-/110110/djokovic107336168_16ikmd4-16ikmib.jpg%253Fx%253D300%2526q%253D80%2526n%253D1%2526sig%253DesXgYZ8Rd.dRYreOL.0bWQ--&w=300&h=400&ei=SVV4UJevNIeo0QWEsoDYCQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=623&sig=113819094801944464436&page=16&tbnh=152&tbnw=105&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:238,i:200&tx=53&ty=47


lots of bulk in this picture


http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=rafael+nadal&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1154&bih=513&tbm=isch&tbnid=8VJ2L-DvqLTOJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.sportchalk.com/free-betting-tips/free-tip-australian-open-tennis-rafael-nadal-on-fire&docid=jMiDrKx7B-yl8M&imgurl=http://www.sportchalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Rafael-Nadal-Pictures-Latest-511.jpg&w=450&h=455&ei=lVV4UJzCMuTK0QXy3YDwCw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=110&vpy=26&dur=1221&hovh=226&hovw=223&tx=132&ty=113&sig=113819094801944464436&page=2&tbnh=148&tbnw=163&start=12&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:12,i:214


and in this one


http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=rafael+nadal&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1154&bih=513&tbm=isch&tbnid=p_a59NA2s2F8VM:&imgrefurl=http://www.tvsmacktalk.com/rafael-nadal-collapses-during-press-conf-goes-crazy-on-mom-video/&docid=tzgeqALjcWjbGM&imgurl=http://www.tvsmacktalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/635_RafaNadal.jpg&w=480&h=359&ei=lVV4UJzCMuTK0QXy3YDwCw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=114&vpy=134&dur=373&hovh=169&hovw=230&tx=134&ty=105&sig=113819094801944464436&page=5&tbnh=137&tbnw=192&start=62&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:62,i:354


and in this one

http://celestonews.com/sports-news/rafael-nadal-images-2012/1680.html


But they're probably all photoshopped... Laugh
Body builders must be idiots to be pumping iron when they can develop such arms by swinging a racket away and hitting balls Laugh

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Post by laverfan Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:44 pm

luvsports! wrote:what you don't know is that in the last 8 games of that match they clocked up another 15 miles or so Laugh

Is that why they needed chairs during the trophy ceremony, to rest their weary bodies, and Pascal Maria bringing them water bottles? Laugh

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Post by laverfan Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:55 pm

@Veejay... There is plenty on THASP if you like looking at ripped players. Winking One of my favourites, Sam Stosur is on there as well, IIRC.

Body Builders who do it for their own pleasure are welcome to what they like. If they do not need to compete in Mr/Mrs Universe, they can even rely on illegal enhancements. Laugh

Is Nadal a body-builder playing Tennis, or a Tennis player building body? I wonder who he lost to at AO 2012.

My recommendation is that any proof/suspicion you or others might have should be either made a skit on French Television, with an RFET logo, or a posting on THASP, or other like-minded internet places.

It is interesting to note the ITF doping program discussion has focussed on a single player, who is yet to be caught for any illegal enhancements, and has been around for the last seven years. I agree with the OP, the ITF program is a joke, it has been unable to catch Nadal, but has caught Kutrovsky, Kendrick, and others, like Hingis or Gasquet (who just kissed a girl and liked it).

There is more knowledge on this forum than ITF/WADA will ever dream to have. Laugh

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Post by Veejay Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:00 pm

laverfan wrote:
Veejay wrote:Laverfan your arguments are becoming pathetic,what does that have to do with the argument about a particular type of physique?

You do not need to read such pathetic arguments and sound like a broken record. Winking

Veejay wrote:No marathon runners dont use their arms to wield 300+ gram rackets and hit 56 gm balls at 90+ mph,if you attribute this to the reasons why Nadal has such developed arms and biceps then why doesnt every single player in the draw have similar biceps or definition in their arms?
In fact looking at Federer,for someone who uses their arm to wield 300+ gram rackets whole hitting 56 gm balls at 90+ mph,his arms aren't that much more defined then someone who runs marathons.

Murray, Dabul and plethora of others, if you just look...

Veejay wrote:Now while I may say this I am not saying that automatically means a marathon runner has similar strength and skill in their arms as a tennis player

Good. We agree.

Veejay wrote:As for the distance covered,how much distance do you reckon a player covers from the start of a season to the end of the season if they are making the semi finals or better of every tournament they play is? If the answer doesnt equal long distance running then what would you classify that distance as instead?

Top 4 per slam roughly half a marathon on average because of Bo5. Masters would roughly be 70-90% (depends on specific matches).

Long distance running is a steady pace, unlike Tennis, with short sprints and stop and turn around the baseline. It is not the same as long distance running. Listen to Paganini on 'explosiveness' and then we can discuss the running aspect of Tennis again. Let us leave this virtual marathon stuff in limbo till then.

So running half a marathon on average per grand slam is not enough to develop a physique thats consistent with doing that much running?
Doing that much running whether at a consistent pace or inconsistent explosive pace will not result in muscle catabolism over a period of time...?
Tennis isnt really an endurance sport?
If this is the case then what you attribute Nadals muscle atrophy at the end of the 09 season if he wasnt injured?
1 He wasnt injured and 2 it cant be because of endurance and cardio,so what is it then?

"You do not need to read such pathetic arguments and sound like a broken record. Winking"

Im still waiting for you to give me a plausible explanation for the questions I asked...Looks like Im going to wait forever...

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Post by Veejay Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:16 pm

laverfan wrote:@Veejay... There is plenty on THASP if you like looking at ripped players. Winking One of my favourites, Sam Stosur is on there as well, IIRC.

Body Builders who do it for their own pleasure are welcome to what they like. If they do not need to compete in Mr/Mrs Universe, they can even rely on illegal enhancements. Laugh

Is Nadal a body-builder playing Tennis, or a Tennis player building body? I wonder who he lost to at AO 2012.

My recommendation is that any proof/suspicion you or others might have should be either made a skit on French Television, with an RFET logo, or a posting on THASP, or other like-minded internet places.

It is interesting to note the ITF doping program discussion has focussed on a single player, who is yet to be caught for any illegal enhancements, and has been around for the last seven years. I agree with the OP, the ITF program is a joke, it has been unable to catch Nadal, but has caught Kutrovsky, Kendrick, and others, like Hingis or Gasquet (who just kissed a girl and liked it).

There is more knowledge on this forum than ITF/WADA will ever dream to have. Laugh


I thought you implied the pictures on THASP are photoshopped,but here I am using pictures from Google and youre telling me to
look at THASP lol whats wrong with the ones from Google?
What does who Nadal lost to have to do with whether he is a bodybuilder playing tennis or the other way around...once again trying to answer more questions by asking more questions.I said this before,stop beating around the bush and come out and say exactly what it is youre trying to imply..you want to attack others for their suspicions,you attack THASP for what some suspect there but then you keep making subtle digs and hinting at other players.Your comments are constantly filled with innuendo and hinting this and hinting that.Just man up and make some accusations,or shut up.Are you afraid youll end up looking like a hypocrite if you do?

This :
"My recommendation is that any proof/suspicion you or others might have should be either made a skit on French Television, with an RFET logo, or a posting on THASP, or other like-minded internet places. "

Doesnt answer the questions I posed to you

This:
"My recommendation is that any proof/suspicion you or others might have should be either made a skit on French Television, with an RFET logo, or a posting on THASP, or other like-minded internet places."

Doesnt answer the questions I posed to you

This:
"It is interesting to note the ITF doping program discussion has focussed on a single player, who is yet to be caught for any illegal enhancements, and has been around for the last seven years. I agree with the OP, the ITF program is a joke, it has been unable to catch Nadal, but has caught Kutrovsky, Kendrick, and others, like Hingis or Gasquet (who [i]just kissed a girl and liked it"

Also doesnt answer the questions I posed to you...



Last edited by Veejay on Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Tenez Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:27 pm

laverfan wrote:Is Nadal a body-builder playing Tennis, or a Tennis player building body? I wonder who he lost to at AO 2012.
I am sure you understand that this extra muscle mass consumes oxygen and though Nadal may be helped by a great training and diet, if his opponent is also on the same diet, Nadal will have no choice that to pull the trigger (shorten rallies) before Djoko. This is why in fact he lost 7 times in a row last year. Whether Nadal changed his diet again after the AO12 or Djoko started to eat gluten again, I am not sure but that is in my view what reverse the trend for a while.

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Post by Larry Ellison Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:39 pm

Tenez, in 2012 Nadal changed his tactics against Djokovic.
Instead of using the FH CC, he went DTL more often.
In the French Open final Nadal hit more forehand winners than Djokovic, he was exposing Djokovic's movement on clay with that FH DTL.
Back-hand wise Djokovic hit more winners in that match, (as is inevitable as Nadal uses the FH to finish the points of, rarely the BH), but Nadal kept the ball away from Djokovic's backhand for a lot of the time (opposite to his tactics against Federer).

Also the on the body serve worked well, in 2011 too often he tried to go for the serve outwide which works against Federer, on Eurosport they showed percentage points won for Rafa on serve, and it was much higher when he served into Djokovic's body.

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Post by Tenez Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:30 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:Tenez, in 2012 Nadal changed his tactics against Djokovic.
Instead of using the FH CC, he went DTL more often.
In the French Open final Nadal hit more forehand winners than Djokovic, he was exposing Djokovic's movement on clay with that FH DTL.
Back-hand wise Djokovic hit more winners in that match, (as is inevitable as Nadal uses the FH to finish the points of, rarely the BH), but Nadal kept the ball away from Djokovic's backhand for a lot of the time (opposite to his tactics against Federer).

Also the on the body serve worked well, in 2011 too often he tried to go for the serve outwide which works against Federer, on Eurosport they showed percentage points won for Rafa on serve, and it was much higher when he served into Djokovic's body.
What was obvious to me in 2012 was not the change of tactics from Nadal but the drop of physical level from Djokovic. It seemed the AO was his last physical prowess. From then on he has been unable to win those long physical battles.

As a Nadal fan you want to see the improvement from Nadal's side. But we could clearly observe Djoko being really out of shape (comparatively to 11) during most of the clay season. Djoko was playing far more aggressively than he did the previous year where he was just happy to tire Nadal down.

I am afraid, I do not buy at all the body serve, DTL FH, etc...as between those 2 its always going to be down to stamina on clay....whereas Djoko doesn't even need the stamina to beat Nadal on the other surfaces.

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Post by Larry Ellison Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:44 pm

I agree Djokovic's level dipped form 2012 to 2011, but as a close analyser of Nadal's game, I can see when he has changed his tactics, and how they are working.

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Post by Tenez Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:52 pm

Interesting reading!

Dick Pound, former International Olympic Committee vice president and former president of the World Anti-Doping Agency, estimates that a mere 20 percent of the dopers who were drug-tested at the London Olympics were actually caught. The majority used drugs at undetectable levels, or ones with chemical structures that had been tweaked beyond recognition. As Pound put it in a CNN interview, "If you're a sophisticated doper and you test positive, you fail two tests: a drugs test and an IQ test."

With testosterone, for example, athletes are allowed up to four times the average level, to account for natural variations between humans. The latest technique of pushing this allowable limit, Pound said, is to "inject a pellet into their butt, which will slow-release small doses of testosterone but won't go over the threshold." [How Powerful Is Willpower?]

As with blood doping in endurance sports, unbridled use of testosterone and similar drugs would boost performances beyond the realm of natural human variations in sports requiring brute strength. Consider baseball. According to 2007 research by Tufts University physicist Roger Tobin, a 10 percent increase in muscle mass through the use of anabolic steroids (which mimic the muscle-building effects of testosterone) translates into a 4 percent increase in the speed of a batted ball. That sounds marginal, but with all home runs happening at the margins, Tobin said the small speed boost increases home-run production by anywhere from 50 to 100 percent.

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Post by Tenez Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:56 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:I agree Djokovic's level dipped form 2012 to 2011, but as a close analyser of Nadal's game, I can see when he has changed his tactics, and how they are working.

Against a different Djokovic....but not v the 2011.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:01 pm

Tenez wrote:Interesting reading!

Dick Pound, former International Olympic Committee vice president and former president of the World Anti-Doping Agency, estimates that a mere 20 percent of the dopers who were drug-tested at the London Olympics were actually caught. The majority used drugs at undetectable levels, or ones with chemical structures that had been tweaked beyond recognition. As Pound put it in a CNN interview, "If you're a sophisticated doper and you test positive, you fail two tests: a drugs test and an IQ test."

With testosterone, for example, athletes are allowed up to four times the average level, to account for natural variations between humans. The latest technique of pushing this allowable limit, Pound said, is to "inject a pellet into their butt, which will slow-release small doses of testosterone but won't go over the threshold." [How Powerful Is Willpower?]

As with blood doping in endurance sports, unbridled use of testosterone and similar drugs would boost performances beyond the realm of natural human variations in sports requiring brute strength. Consider baseball. According to 2007 research by Tufts University physicist Roger Tobin, a 10 percent increase in muscle mass through the use of anabolic steroids (which mimic the muscle-building effects of testosterone) translates into a 4 percent increase in the speed of a batted ball. That sounds marginal, but with all home runs happening at the margins, Tobin said the small speed boost increases home-run production by anywhere from 50 to 100 percent.

It's a sobering and sickening read. Nothing I kind of didn't suspect, cover up has always thrived, just hype up the media beforehand and then keep going, like anyone would know. It's only when you hear the gory details it hits you in the face.

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Post by laverfan Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:03 pm

Veejay wrote:I said this before,stop beating around the bush and come out and say exactly what it is youre trying to imply..you want to attack others for their suspicions,you attack THASP for what some suspect there but then you keep making subtle digs and hinting at other players.Your comments are constantly filled with innuendo and hinting this and hinting that.Just man up and make some accusations,or shut up.Are you afraid youll end up looking like a hypocrite if you do?

Either I accuse the entire ATP/WTA or none. I have no desire to accuse anyone of doping unless there is public domain information which is available in this regard.

There is no hypocrisy on my part, unlike the singling out of Nadal (and a couple of others) that I have seen on this forum.

There is no manning up. I am not a paranoid spectator. I had much rather trust ITF/WADA authorities then discuss unfounded suspicions.

Veejay wrote:
This :
"My recommendation is that any proof/suspicion you or others might have should be either made a skit on French Television, with an RFET logo, or a posting on THASP, or other like-minded internet places. "

Doesnt answer the questions I posed to you

You can carry on with your question, I have no interest in repeating what I have said earlier, unlike you.

Veejay wrote:
This:
"My recommendation is that any proof/suspicion you or others might have should be either made a skit on French Television, with an RFET logo, or a posting on THASP, or other like-minded internet places."

Doesnt answer the questions I posed to you

You can carry on with your question, I have no interest in repeating what I have said earlier, unlike you.

Veejay wrote:
This:
"It is interesting to note the ITF doping program discussion has focussed on a single player, who is yet to be caught for any illegal enhancements, and has been around for the last seven years. I agree with the OP, the ITF program is a joke, it has been unable to catch Nadal, but has caught Kutrovsky, Kendrick, and others, like Hingis or Gasquet (who just kissed a girl and liked it")

Also doesnt answer the questions I posed to you...


You can carry on with your question, I have no interest in repeating what I have said earlier, unlike you.

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Post by Larry Ellison Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:20 pm

NITB, do you think Djokovic is doping?

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Post by Veejay Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:34 pm

Im not surprised to see you dont wish to repeat what you said earlier,as it doesnt 1 answer anything and 2 doesnt do you any favours in this argument

"
Either I accuse the entire ATP/WTA or none. I have no desire to accuse anyone of doping unless there is public domain information which is available in this regard.

There is no hypocrisy on my part, unlike the singling out of Nadal (and a couple of others) that I have seen on this forum.

There is no manning up. I am not a paranoid spectator. I had much rather trust ITF/WADA authorities then discuss unfounded suspicions. "

Then whats up with the constant subtle digs,constant innuendo hinting this and hinting that about other players? You keep asking questions about players,whats the point of raising any players name if you dont wish to voice your personal suspicions of them?The mere fact you even saying things like "what about Murray" or " what about Ferrer" and then the infamous wink there after clearly indicates that you have personal suspicions so why is it ok for you to have suspicions of anyone but attack anyone else who wishes to voice their suspicions?Whats up with the double standard?
No one is singling anyone out here,I have repeatedly said I keep an open mind all the players,several people on here can vouch for that,I have also seen several other posters say the same thing and I will vouch for them.I even told you I wont accuse anyone unless I am 100% certain.There are a few players I am certain about
I base this on my personal experience,if this isnt good enough for you tough luck but you havent given me anything to refute it apart from youd rather trust the ITF WADA...Im guessing this is the same ITF that kept Aggasi's failed drugs tests secret for how long? In fact if Agassi never admitted to it,it would still be a secret today

I was also one of those who was very vocal in claiming that I believed Lance Armstrong was doping,I based this on my experience too,even certain people can vouch for the backlash I received,I bet you would have been one of those who said I have no credibility without proof,well boy wouldnt you look like a muppet now?

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:34 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:NITB, do you think Djokovic is doping?

I have no reason to believe he is.

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Post by Larry Ellison Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:35 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:NITB, do you think Djokovic is doping?

I have no reason to believe he is.
Good to know.

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Post by luvsports! Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:37 pm

tenez sorry again to ask but where did you find that? more good stuff Thumbs Up

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:44 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:NITB, do you think Djokovic is doping?

I have no reason to believe he is.
Good to know.

Why?
Are you planning to write another article a la "Who's more talented Llodra or Djokovic?"

haven't you learnt the lesson.... doping - The doping program joke of the ITF!!! - Page 11 2786941968

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Post by Larry Ellison Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:46 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:NITB, do you think Djokovic is doping?

I have no reason to believe he is.
Good to know.

Why?
Are you planning to write another article a la "Who's more talented Llodra or Djokovic?"

haven't you learnt the lesson.... doping - The doping program joke of the ITF!!! - Page 11 2786941968
What lesson NITB?

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:56 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
What lesson NITB?

this one:"sphairistike wrote:Amri, what was the
<blockquote>intention of your OP? Was it to take a subject with the player NITB is a
fan of vs. a player Tenez considers really talented but from the wrong
tennis time, so that you can somehow stir things up between them? Then
you switched to Nadal vs. Dr Ivo as you thought it would show you are
open enough to put Nadal in the mix? doping - The doping program joke of the ITF!!! - Page 11 2033450363</blockquote>

How on earth did I not realise Amri's trick? doping - The doping program joke of the ITF!!! - Page 11 2786941968 "

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Post by Tenez Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:07 pm

laverfan wrote:There is no manning up. I am not a paranoid spectator. I had much rather trust ITF/WADA authorities then discuss unfounded suspicions.
So the suspicions for LA were unfounded before the USADA report?

USADA would do nothing if it had not had its own suspicions to start with.

So you prefer to trust WADA than unfounded suspicions? I am quite the opposite. USADA taught us once again to trust our suspicions more than WADA, UCI or ITF.

Dick Pound knows a bit more than me and you and I'd trust his suspicions more than the sport organisations and athletes cause unlike them he has no interest in see doping everywhere.

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Post by Tenez Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:10 pm

luvsports! wrote:tenez sorry again to ask but where did you find that? more good stuff Thumbs Up

I am not sure now...looking for it again....

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Post by Tenez Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:11 pm


Tenez

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Post by Larry Ellison Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:22 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:
What lesson NITB?

this one:"sphairistike wrote:Amri, what was the
<blockquote>intention of your OP? Was it to take a subject with the player NITB is a
fan of vs. a player Tenez considers really talented but from the wrong
tennis time, so that you can somehow stir things up between them? Then
you switched to Nadal vs. Dr Ivo as you thought it would show you are
open enough to put Nadal in the mix? doping - The doping program joke of the ITF!!! - Page 11 2033450363</blockquote>

How on earth did I not realise Amri's trick? doping - The doping program joke of the ITF!!! - Page 11 2786941968 "
So just because you and Tenez do not agree on whether Djokovic is doping or not, means I am not allowed to ask any questions about it?
Should I clarify everything with you two before-hand?

I'm asking whether you thought Djokovic dopes or not, it's a valid question, irrelevant of whether Tenez agrees with you or not.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:24 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
So just because you and Tenez do not agree on whether Djokovic is doping or not, means I am not allowed to ask any questions about it?
Should I clarify everything with you two before-hand?

I'm asking whether you thought Djokovic dopes or not, it's a valid question, irrelevant of whether Tenez agrees with you or not.

The question was fine, the reply to my answer from you which was : "Good to know" was a dead give-away, though.

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Post by Larry Ellison Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:26 pm

Well actually I was implying that you don't hold the same ground for Djokovic as you do for Nadal, hence the 'good to know' comment.
Personally I don't think either Nadal or Djokovic dopes, well certainly I don't really have much evidence suggesting this is the case.

Don't see how Tenez comes into this conversation at all though.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:27 pm

I was just watching an old clip of Sean Connery as a James Bond, and thought, no! No steroids in that body doping - The doping program joke of the ITF!!! - Page 11 1071211947

http://cdni.condenast.co.uk/320x480/g_j/JBond_GQ_13Apr12_rex_b_320x480_1.jpg

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:29 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:Well actually I was implying that you don't hold the same ground for Djokovic as you do for Nadal, hence the 'good to know' comment.

Why is that good?

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:32 pm

noleisthebest wrote:I was just watching an old clip of Sean Connery as a James Bond, and thought, no! No steroids in that body doping - The doping program joke of the ITF!!! - Page 11 1071211947

http://cdni.condenast.co.uk/320x480/g_j/JBond_GQ_13Apr12_rex_b_320x480_1.jpg

And to prove my point, compare him to Daniel Craig...I bet he visits his "health" shop regularly....

http://snarkerati.com/movie-news/files/2008/09/daniel-craig-james-bond-swimming-trunks.jpg

Since it's Friday night, ladies can feel free to express their quiet sigh of admiration in front of those computers, sorry gents doping - The doping program joke of the ITF!!! - Page 11 123628122


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Post by laverfan Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:33 pm

Veejay wrote:Im not surprised to see you dont wish to repeat what you said earlier,as it doesnt 1 answer anything and 2 doesnt do you any favours in this argument

"
Either I accuse the entire ATP/WTA or none. I have no desire to accuse anyone of doping unless there is public domain information which is available in this regard.

There is no hypocrisy on my part, unlike the singling out of Nadal (and a couple of others) that I have seen on this forum.

There is no manning up. I am not a paranoid spectator. I had much rather trust ITF/WADA authorities then discuss unfounded suspicions. "


Then whats up with the constant subtle digs,constant innuendo hinting this and hinting that about other players? You keep asking questions about players,whats the point of raising any players name if you dont wish to voice your personal suspicions of them?The mere fact you even saying things like "what about Murray" or " what about Ferrer" and then the infamous wink there after clearly indicates that you have personal suspicions so why is it ok for you to have suspicions of anyone but attack anyone else who wishes to voice their suspicions?Whats up with the double standard?

You do not seem to see the argument as a whole, if you suspect one, you suspect all, and vice-a-versa. I am unwilling to entertain conspiracy theories. You are the one who brought up Murray/Gilbert/Nadrolone, and when I asked about Lendl/Murray and stated that Lendl would disavow himself from Murray, if that was the case, I am being accused of innuendo. Laugh. Ferrer was a counter-example to the painting of the Spanish tennis players as a whole being on some kind of an illegal enhancement program. I saw a comment saying, since Ferrer has yet to win slams or even get close, he is being ignored, till he threatens the current Top 4. I wonder why Murray, who seems to have gained visible muscle mass in the last 12 months, is being suspected any less, or Federer, or Djokovic (the 2011 Energiser Bunny). My Innocent or Guilty article descended into a Nadal bash, as usual.

If ITF/WADA catch a player, once that information is public, then it warrants a discussion on what clues were available. If ITF/WADA is not trusted anymore, the spectators who think this way should not watch a tainted sport, but yet they do. The entire silent ban theory is based on ITF/WADA not making anything public, for reasons of their choice, privacy being one.

If Nadal comes back and starts winning he will be accused of cycling up during his break, if he comes looking less muscular and starts losing, he will be accused of cycling down. I also provided an example of sound-byte manipulation about Nadal hating gym work vs. Nadal weight training to get ripped look. Federer seems to be the favourite example for posters who say, Nadal is ripped yet Federer is not. My counter examples of Murray and others do not seem to agree with the world-view on this forum.

I have shown you examples of your virtual marathons notion being incorrect, so the last few posts have dropped that line of thinking. If you want to continue the debate, we can, but I have no desire to repeat this again. You have a set of views and opinions, and you are welcome to them.

Veejay wrote:No one is singling anyone out here,I have repeatedly said I keep an open mind all the players,several people on here can vouch for that,I have also seen several other posters say the same thing and I will vouch for them.I even told you I wont accuse anyone unless I am 100% certain.There are a few players I am certain about
I base this on my personal experience,if this isnt good enough for you tough luck but you havent given me anything to refute it apart from youd rather trust the ITF WADA...Im guessing this is the same ITF that kept Aggasi's failed drugs tests secret for how long? In fact if Agassi never admitted to it,it would still be a secret today

The Agassi case is just one. Generalising it and saying that that is the 'normal' modus operandi is incorrect. I even made fun of this notion it by stating that one needs to wait for Nadal to retire and write the second edition of his biography, to admit any wrong-doing, if any.

Veejay wrote:I was also one of those who was very vocal in claiming that I believed Lance Armstrong was doping,I based this on my experience too,even certain people can vouch for the backlash I received,I bet you would have been one of those who said I have no credibility without proof,well boy wouldnt you look like a muppet now?

Cycling, which has been rife with these issues has no equivalent in Tennis, does it? We have had arguments about LA specifically and the rest of his team. Not just an individual. There is a long list of cyclists involved, like Landis, TH, Valverde, Basso, Ullrich, Anderson, etc. Tennis is very unlike cycling from an organisational perspective. Yet the argument of equating the two sports, continues unabated.

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Post by Larry Ellison Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:53 pm

Laverfan Applause

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Post by laverfan Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:02 pm

Tenez wrote:
laverfan wrote:There is no manning up. I am not a paranoid spectator. I had much rather trust ITF/WADA authorities then discuss unfounded suspicions.
So the suspicions for LA were unfounded before the USADA report?

USADA would do nothing if it had not had its own suspicions to start with.

The same USADA who worked with Marion Jones, Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds, and the likes. USADA was sitting on it's proverbial ar$3 till the US Congress started it's own MLB investigation. USADA is worse than WADA. It allowed athletes who were known dopers to participate in Olympics. You can find the list on your own, if you like.

PS: Dick Pound's book has many references to the USADA and it's incompetence. USADA should be disbanded and a different organization, perhaps, under WADA direction should be created which is independent of the US Federal bureaucrats. He even alludes to an underground which helps athletes get away with challenges at Olympics. Read his Ben Johnson 1988 Seoul example.

Tenez wrote:So you prefer to trust WADA than unfounded suspicions? I am quite the opposite. USADA taught us once again to trust our suspicions more than WADA, UCI or ITF.

I am not suggesting outright paranoia either.

Tenez wrote:Dick Pound knows a bit more than me and you and I'd trust his suspicions more than the sport organisations and athletes cause unlike them he has no interest in see doping everywhere.

Which is good. If he was so passionate about this, why did he leave WADA in 2007 and not re-run for another term to continue his work? If he has already built the foundation in WADA, why is WADA so mistrusted (as the OP alleges)?


Last edited by laverfan on Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Updated for information.)

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:08 pm

laverfan wrote:
Cycling, which has been rife with these issues has no equivalent in Tennis, does it? We have had arguments about LA specifically and the rest of his team. Not just an individual. There is a long list of cyclists involved, like Landis, TH, Valverde, Basso, Ullrich, Anderson, etc. Tennis is very unlike cycling from an organisational perspective. Yet the argument of equating the two sports, continues unabated.

I wonder what your view on LA was 10 years ago?
Tennis has changed hugely in the last decade.
In order to "deliver" players have to be ultra fit.

Now, what made those cyclists dope: there was no natural way of getting fitter any more. A body has its limits. It plateaus. Then what do you do? Chuck 15 years of hard work down the drain, or just pop a pill, blood pellet in the but or whatever and be stronger and fitter. the doctor says it's fine and everyone else is doing it. Nobody cares. It happens in cycling only. Tennis is not an endurance sport. You'll be fine...

I bet they all do it without even blinking.

And if one or two are doing it, soon everyone will be doing it. We don't want it, do we?

A few small token fish have been caught and fried (Odesnik, Canas etc), they all have their story and motive (which always boils down to cash), so, it's there. And so it a lot of silence and lack of transparency.

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Post by Tenez Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:11 pm

laverfan wrote:The same USADA who worked with Marion Jones, Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds, and the likes. USADA was sitting on it's proverbial ar$3 till the US Congress started it's own MLB investigation. USADA is worse than WADA. It allowed athletes who were known dopers to participate in Olympics. You can find the list on your own, if you like.
Again how great USADA is or isn't is a different subject.

I am not suggesting outright paranoia either.
Am I suggesting it? More diversion?

Which is good. If he was so passionate about this, why did he leave WADA in 2007 and not re-run for another term to continue his work? If he has already built the foundation in WADA, why is WADA so mistrusted (as the OP alleges)?
I am not sure why he left. That's another diversion from the topic erm . Probably cause he is a genuine honest man who knew there was no way to stay at the top of the organisation without being corrupt.

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Post by Tenez Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:16 pm

I don;t understand how we can say tennis is different from Cycling.

It's a sport with "human" athletes and lots of money. Why would tennis players be more virtuous than cyclists?

The main difference I woudl say is that the UCI has tried to be a bit more open about doping. Well at least they invested much more in anti-doping tests...even if it was to hide the results in most cases.

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Post by laverfan Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:38 pm

Tenez wrote:I don;t understand how we can say tennis is different from Cycling.

Mike Cavendish was pushed by his team-mates to try and win. Cycling is a team sport in the field.

Tennis does not have Federer standing behind Wawrinka with a racquet to hit the ball that Stan might miss. It is a much more individualistic sport when players are on the court, unlike cycling. There is no Peloton in Tennis.

Tenez wrote:It's a sport with "human" athletes and lots of money. Why would tennis players be more virtuous than cyclists?

Why should posters be more virtuous? They can accuse any player they dislike. Winking

Tenez wrote:The main difference I woudl say is that the UCI has tried to be a bit more open about doping. Well at least they invested much more in anti-doping tests...even if it was to hide the results in most cases.

Openness does not necessarily mean doing a press release on dopers, does it? If they are hiding test results, it is a contradiction anyway. I can see a radical way of reducing doping, which, in cycling, seems to be more prevalent on long-distance races. Reduce the number of such races and not make them a test of endurance, but shorter races which test the cycling skills of individuals.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:43 pm

Endurance is a great skill in cycling, that's what you train for.
that's the whole beauty of it: pushing yourself to see how far your mind and body can take you.

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Post by noleisthebest Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:53 pm

Roddick testifies for a player in doping case:

"LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AP) -- On the day Andy Roddick announced his
retirement from tennis, he helped Bulgarian player Dimitar Kutrovsky
receive a reduced ban in a doping case.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport has published a ruling in Kutrovsky's appeal that reduced his two-year ban to 15 months.

CAS says Roddick "testified about Kutrovsky's character" by telephone with the Aug. 30 appeal hearing held in New York.

Roddick also called a news conference at Flushing Meadows that day, his
30th birthday, to say that the U.S. Open was his final tournament.

Kutrovsky tested positive in February for the banned stimulant
methylhexaneamine at the SAP Open in San Jose, Calif., where Roddick was
the No. 2 seed.

The CAS panel accepted that the 25-year-old Bulgarian did not intend to dope with an over-the-counter energy supplement."

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Post by Veejay Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:12 am

" if you suspect on then you suspect then all"
When have I ever said anything to the contrary?
You are willing to be suspicious of players but yet you wont entertain conspiracy theories?
So what are you basing your suspicions on?
Just the fact that if you suspect one then you should suspect them all? Is that not an outlandish conspiracy just like you claimed certain photographs are photoshopped?
Wheres your proof to back those claims up?
Lets get one things straight here,you asked me about Murray first,I didnt come out and say anything about Murray until you mentioned his name,why would you ask me about Murray if you werent suspicious of him and then why say "I wonder why Murray, who seems to have gained visible muscle mass in the last 12 months, is being suspected any less"
Surely you give the notion of "getting bigger" substance enough to consider that its plausible and enough of a reason for someone doping or why even say it?
I said I believed Murray used Nandrolone while he was being coached by Brad Gilbert,you then asked me about the recent seasons ( why??) I then went on to say that I havent seen any evidence to support the theory that has been using steroids recently but it doesnt rule out the possibility of any other PED's being used

You never said Lendl would disavow himself from Murray ( how do you even know this-pure speculation),you said nothing of the sort, you just asked me about Lendl once again implying something by asking some random question but not actually saying anything..now your trying to tell me thats what you implied all along.
Well if thats why you implied all along,why the hell didnt you just come out and say it instead of expecting us to read your mind?
Does it not occur to you that the possibilities of whats going on in your mind are endless,especially how you continually contradict yourself?

As for Ferrer,Spain have been involved in several doping scandals,more so any any other European country in recent history,the fact that their own prime minister could exonerate a drugs cheat like Contador casts a shadow over every Spanish athlete,you may call that being racist I call it being realistic
Ferrer was also one of the athletes who was linked to DR Luis Garcia who has been charged by the USADA for doping violations
If this isnt enough to be suspicious of him then theres no point on further discussing it,I mean why argue with someone who claims photographs are photoshopped but cant even give you a reason why you should believe that?


Ok so let me get this straight,we arent allowed to discuss the possibility of anyone doping until the WADA catch a player and that information is made public? This is the law according to who?? You? Give me one good reason why I should abide by it,if you want to thats fine but dont expect anyone else to and don't then render them incompetent by saying they shouldnt be watching a tainted sport.Who died and made you god Laverfan? People can watch whatever sport for whatever reason regardless of whether they think the sport is tainted or not plus you cannot expect people to not form any opinion because you feel its not kosher,people are going to do that.Its human nature just like you form your own opinions,if youre entitled to your opinions then so should everyone else


"If Nadal comes back and starts winning he will be accused of cycling up during his break, if he comes looking less muscular and starts losing, he will be accused of cycling down"
Is this another one of your infamous questions answering questions or are you actually trying to say something?
If youre asking me-my opinion will entirely be based the physical evidence and signs which are consistent with using PED's

You havent provided any "sound-byte manipulation about Nadal hating gym work vs. Nadal weight training to get ripped look. " Otherwise I wouldnt have missed it but seeing that you claim you have why not repeat it so I can address is


You havent shown me any examples of virtual marathons notions being incorrect as we have already said that Murray has doped before,therefore we remain suspicious about him.You have been voicing your own suspicion about him by pointing out that he has been "gained visible muscle mass in the last 12 months"
Does that not contradict what youre saying?
I said I havent seen any visible evidence of steroids being using,nor have I said Murray has gotten bigger in the last 12 months,so I wouldnt at all be contradicting my theory about cardio and muscle catabolism,I claimed he was on Nandrolone therefore he would have deflated when cycling down,how else would have gotten "bigger over the last 12 months" You cant get bigger if you werent smaller to begin with Laverfan
I merely stopped the conversation because you were going around in circles,not answering anything I asked and making no sense whatsoever,taking about nutrition which would play no real role in long distance running.Otherwise why do marathon runners have such lean bodies even if they were on a very high protein diet? Plus this goes back to how anyone can maintain a muscular physique while doing a lot of cardio if theres little to no weight training

Oh is that your excuse...Agassi case is just happened once...so you expect me to give them credibility because it only happened once? No one is generalising anything,we are just not trusting the ITF,how can you possibly expect us to otherwise? Are we not even allowed to consider what else they could possibly be hiding or would the opening ourselves up to conspiracy theories?
This argument is pointless as you said "I had much rather trust ITF/WADA authorities then discuss unfounded suspicions."
Who would do that after hearing how they covered up Agassis failed drugs test??
Has the unfounded suspicions been exposed to have absolutely no credibility to a 100% certainty like the ITF cause if thats the case Im still waiting see evidence of that...

Why do you think the argument of equating cycling and tennis continues unabated? Look anyone here can tell I have quite a reasonable knowledge of steroids,I have admitted many times before that I have used them and trained people who use them.Why would I be suspicious of anyone using steroids if Im not basing it on my own personal experience and knowledge to back my claims up?
Its like saying a plastic surgeon wouldnt be able to instantly tell if someone has had cosmetic surgery
Why would a cosmetic surgeon say someone has had cosmetic surgery if that havent? Could you give me one plausible explanation why? By the same token why would I accuse someone of using steroids and basing it on my personal experience if it wasnt true? What would I gain out of it and why would I place myself in a position to be exposed as fraud?
The biggest problem with this argument remains the fact that you have yet yo answer the questions I posed to you,you still havent given me a plausible explanation for anything
Answering questions by asking more questions doesnt answer anything
Just admit that you have no plausible explanation and I will stop "harassing" you

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Post by Tenez Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:16 am

laverfan wrote:Mike Cavendish was pushed by his team-mates to try and win. Cycling is a team sport in the field.

Tennis does not have Federer standing behind Wawrinka with a racquet to hit the ball that Stan might miss. It is a much more individualistic sport when players are on the court, unlike cycling. There is no Peloton in Tennis.
Right! And I hope you can also note the difference between a racquet and a bicycle. What has doping got to do with the fact one is a team and the other an individual sport? Oh I see...just some more....diversion!


Why should posters be more virtuous? They can accuse any player they dislike. Winking
So now talking about the posters. More diversion maybe?

Openness does not necessarily mean doing a press release on dopers, does it? If they are hiding test results, it is a contradiction anyway. I can see a radical way of reducing doping, which, in cycling, seems to be more prevalent on long-distance races. Reduce the number of such races and not make them a test of endurance, but shorter races which test the cycling skills of individuals.
Now I understand why you try to answer 99% of the time by asking some more irrelevant questions or simply making diversions cause when you actually try to answer a question your replies shows a clear lack of discernment, logic and understanding.

But thanks for trying. I am sure you have your own public so I will leave it as that.


Last edited by Tenez on Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:20 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Veejay Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:16 am

Amritia3ee wrote:Laverfan Applause


Im still waiting to hear from you too Amritia or have you conveniently forgotten?
Last I recall you were giving me a list of side effect and dangers/health risks involved in taking steroids but didnt address anything I asked you...
Why not?
If you agree with Laverfan,why could you have said the above yourself or at least make a case for yourself?
Are you just agreeing cause it took the heat off you for a while? Laugh

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Post by Larry Ellison Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:36 am

Laverfan Applause

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Post by luvsports! Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:05 am


thanks bud you wanna write it for me ? Laugh

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Post by laverfan Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:16 am

noleisthebest wrote:CAS says Roddick "testified about Kutrovsky's character" by telephone with the Aug. 30 appeal hearing held in New York.

I should write a note to Federer to testify about Nadal's character and any future bans (as and when he is found guilty, since all the evidence on this forum already points to Nadal being a doper) would reduce such a ban substantially, perhaps one month for each Federer-Nadal match at RG. Laugh

BTW, Kutrovsky trained at UofT in Austin, where Roddick has a home base.

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Post by laverfan Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:18 am

Veejay wrote:" if you suspect one then you suspect then all"
When have I ever said anything to the contrary?
You are willing to be suspicious of players but yet you wont entertain conspiracy theories?
So what are you basing your suspicions on?
Just the fact that if you suspect one then you should suspect them all? Is that not an outlandish conspiracy just like you claimed certain photographs are photoshopped? Wheres your proof to back those claims up?

I do not suspect anyone, unlike you. I said I am unwilling to entertain any conspiracy theories.


Veejay wrote:Lets get one things straight here,you asked me about Murray first,I didnt come out and say anything about Murray until you mentioned his name,why would you ask me about Murray if you werent suspicious of him and then why say "I wonder why Murray, who seems to have gained visible muscle mass in the last 12 months, is being suspected any less"
Surely you give the notion of "getting bigger" substance enough to consider that its plausible and enough of a reason for someone doping or why even say it?
I said I believed Murray used Nandrolone while he was being coached by Brad Gilbert,you then asked me about the recent seasons ( why??) I then went on to say that I havent seen any evidence to support the theory that has been using steroids recently but it doesnt rule out the possibility of any other PED's being used

You never said Lendl would disavow himself from Murray ( how do you even know this-pure speculation),you said nothing of the sort, you just asked me about Lendl once again implying something by asking some random question but not actually saying anything..now your trying to tell me thats what you implied all along.
Well if thats why you implied all along,why the hell didnt you just come out and say it instead of expecting us to read your mind?
Does it not occur to you that the possibilities of whats going on in your mind are endless,especially how you continually contradict yourself?

Please read my comment to Tenez on page 9.

Veejay wrote:As for Ferrer,Spain have been involved in several doping scandals,more so any any other European country in recent history,the fact that their own prime minister could exonerate a drugs cheat like Contador casts a shadow over every Spanish athlete,you may call that being racist I call it being realistic
Ferrer was also one of the athletes who was linked to DR Luis Garcia who has been charged by the USADA for doping violations
If this isnt enough to be suspicious of him then theres no point on further discussing it,I mean why argue with someone who claims photographs are photoshopped but cant even give you a reason why you should believe that?

Nadal was loosely linked to Fuentes as part of Operacion Puerto. Journal du Dimanche had no cojones to supply proof to ITF/WADA/RFET or the Spaniards unlike CONI and others asking specifically for details for cyclists. Why?

Federer was linked to Tony Galea via Tiger Woods. Be careful about guilt by association. Ted Forstmann of IMG was involved in a betting issue, and was the CEO of Federer's management firm IMG. Is Federer guilty? Laugh
The same train of argument was being applied to Hitler (and other Germans). Should I now connect Franco to all Spaniards, or Mussolini to all Italians, or Stalin to all Russians. Do you see the problem with your own logic?


Veejay wrote:Ok so let me get this straight,we arent allowed to discuss the possibility of anyone doping until the WADA catch a player and that information is made public? This is the law according to who?? You? Give me one good reason why I should abide by it,if you want to thats fine but dont expect anyone else to and don't then render them incompetent by saying they shouldnt be watching a tainted sport.Who died and made you god Laverfan? People can watch whatever sport for whatever reason regardless of whether they think the sport is tainted or not plus you cannot expect people to not form any opinion because you feel its not kosher,people are going to do that.Its human nature just like you form your own opinions,if youre entitled to your opinions then so should everyone else

laverfan wrote:You have a set of views and opinions, and you are welcome to them.


Veejay wrote:"If Nadal comes back and starts winning he will be accused of cycling up during his break, if he comes looking less muscular and starts losing, he will be accused of cycling down"
Is this another one of your infamous questions answering questions or are you actually trying to say something?
If youre asking me-my opinion will entirely be based the physical evidence and signs which are consistent with using PED's

This is providing you grounds to accuse Nadal whenever he comes back, whether he looks ripped or not of how he does not look 'right'.

Veejay wrote:You havent provided any "sound-byte manipulation about Nadal hating gym work vs. Nadal weight training to get ripped look. " Otherwise I wouldnt have missed it but seeing that you claim you have why not repeat it so I can address is

LK reiterated, and I stated, that there is no publicly documented Nadal weight-training program. You have made the assumption that he does not do weight training to get the so-called 'ripped' look. How many times do you want this repeated?


Veejay wrote:You havent shown me any examples of virtual marathons notions being incorrect as we have already said that Murray has doped before,therefore we remain suspicious about him.You have been voicing your own suspicion about him by pointing out that he has been "gained visible muscle mass in the last 12 months"
Does that not contradict what youre saying?
I said I havent seen any visible evidence of steroids being using,nor have I said Murray has gotten bigger in the last 12 months,so I wouldnt at all be contradicting my theory about cardio and muscle catabolism,I claimed he was on Nandrolone therefore he would have deflated when cycling down,how else would have gotten "bigger over the last 12 months" You cant get bigger if you werent smaller to begin with Laverfan
I merely stopped the conversation because you were going around in circles,not answering anything I asked and making no sense whatsoever,taking about nutrition which would play no real role in long distance running.Otherwise why do marathon runners have such lean bodies even if they were on a very high protein diet? Plus this goes back to how anyone can maintain a muscular physique while doing a lot of cardio if theres little to no weight training

Lendl becomes Murray coach (11 months ago) + Murray gets 'visible muscle mass' + Lendl was fanatical about physical fitness == My statement.

Muscle Catabolism == Nutrition + Training + Rest + Other sources of Energy.

Marathon runners are from a completely different sport. A Marathon runner at elite levels runs for 3-5 hours at a steady pace. A Tennis player is a sprinter with short sprints stops and turns. I have shown you a screen shot of a half marathon from the longest AO final, yet you keep comparing Marathon (virtual or real) to Tennis. Why?

Veejay wrote:Oh is that your excuse...Agassi case is just happened once...so you expect me to give them credibility because it only happened once? No one is generalising anything,we are just not trusting the ITF,how can you possibly expect us to otherwise? Are we not even allowed to consider what else they could possibly be hiding or would the opening ourselves up to conspiracy theories?

My excuse? There is a delay in public announcements and it has been discussed on this forum. In Agassi's case the explanation (as in Gasquet's case) was accepted by ITF. That was the procedural outcome, why would there be a need for a public announcement. When Gasquet was accused, the procedures in ITF/WADA required a public announcement. It is that simple, yet you make it sound like justice denied. I would suggest you read his biography and read ITF documentation. There is no point in repeating it here.

Veejay wrote:This argument is pointless as you said "I had much rather trust ITF/WADA authorities then discuss unfounded suspicions."
Who would do that after hearing how they covered up Agassis failed drugs test??
Has the unfounded suspicions been exposed to have absolutely no credibility to a 100% certainty like the ITF cause if thats the case Im still waiting see evidence of that...

Yet they announced Gasquet, Hingis, Canas, Kendrick, Odesnik. I understand the mistrust now, they have yet to announce anyone from Top 4, is that what you are saying?

Veejay wrote:Why do you think the argument of equating cycling and tennis continues unabated? Look anyone here can tell I have quite a reasonable knowledge of steroids,I have admitted many times before that I have used them and trained people who use them.Why would I be suspicious of anyone using steroids if Im not basing it on my own personal experience and knowledge to back my claims up?
Its like saying a plastic surgeon wouldnt be able to instantly tell if someone has had cosmetic surgery
Why would a cosmetic surgeon say someone has had cosmetic surgery if that havent? Could you give me one plausible explanation why? By the same token why would I accuse someone of using steroids and basing it on my personal experience if it wasnt true? What would I gain out of it and why would I place myself in a position to be exposed as fraud?

You are an anonymous poster on an internet forum. Under Free Speech, you can write and claim whatever you want. There is a doctor who claims that he can cure HIV by heating the blood to 45C+ and putting it back in a patient.

Do you think someone on this forum or elsewhere is going to take you to a court of law and ask you for information on how to catch Nadal doping? You have experiences with steroids and you can share them. You may even have a medical degree which can allow you practice medicine, but your anonymity on a forum does not provide any credibility. Why not take THASP's hundreds of postings and charge Nadal with doping? It is full of such claims against Nadal, Stosur, Monfils, Serena and many others.

The other question is this. If you have personal experience with such substances, are you assuming that others (including some who may work for ITF/WADA) do not have similar experiences and cannot discern what you claim to be true based on their own observations. Who should ITF/WADA trust - an anonymous blog or poster on an internet forum, or their own scientific bodies? As I said earlier, you have your opinions, you are welcome to them. I have seen these repeated over many fora. I am challenging your objectivity by asking you to look at a larger sample of players, not just one. Go look at a picture of Kendrick or Kutrovsky that you can rely on, and tell me honestly that you can state that they are on illegal substances.


Veejay wrote:The biggest problem with this argument remains the fact that you have yet yo answer the questions I posed to you,you still havent given me a plausible explanation for anything
Answering questions by asking more questions doesnt answer anything
Just admit that you have no plausible explanation and I will stop "harassing" you

You have a clear muscle catabolism explanation. There is no other. You are unwilling to accept non-steroid changes in musculature, which your experience probably precludes from being acceptable. You are only willing to accept a steroid (or illegal enhancement-based one) as an explanation.

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Post by laverfan Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:35 am

noleisthebest wrote:Endurance is a great skill in cycling, that's what you train for.
that's the whole beauty of it: pushing yourself to see how far your mind and body can take you.

Taking illegal enhancements is also pushing your body, is it not?

So the love for cycling and winning the TDF is so strong, that it makes a cyclist blind to the price?

This love is an obsession driving the cyclists madly like eels to the Sargasso. I think RC car racing is less detrimental to human health.

All human sport should be banned. Only mechanical robots should be allowed to play sport. Winking

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Post by legendkillar Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:37 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19930514

Hope for those who think doping is hard to resist.

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Post by noleisthebest Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:40 pm

legendkillar wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19930514

Hope for those who think doping is hard to resist.


It is hard to walk upright in this world, very few do. Mercier loved cycling more than money, that's the difference doping - The doping program joke of the ITF!!! - Page 11 4052418255.

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