Re: NOVAK DJOKOVIC: The Fan Club

by paulcz Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:24 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Now that you've mentioned the elbow, I understand...

Also, people are all spinning the ball today so the wrist would not last long,either.

Nadal must have a unique technique where he doesn't stress the wrist too much and gets the muscle into the contact somehow otherwise it would have fallen off long time ago...

But I still think pros should not play with heads bigger than 90 or 95...what excuse do they have?
They all started playing when they were born kind of thing and hit the ball day after day, year after year for hours...

Nadal's mad ball lifting needs muscles and his light racket bakelite Babolat allows his elbow and shoulder to survive. He can't use much his wrist when lifting as opposed to the big flat hitting, when it is big tendency to use a wrist, which is the case of Delpo.

Longer rallies need more comfortable racket frames, it is just a need these days, as Fed's last change shows. Tbh I liked more his game before switching to the larger frame, but this change helped him.

by paulcz Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:39 pm

New Masters 1000 triple is done Bubbly

Congratulations to Nole Magic

Not easy, not nice match, but finally done.

by paulcz Fri May 15, 2015 2:00 pm

Czech best known sport physioterapist Dr. Kolar, who cares about best Czech sportsmen and also Novak Djokovic said following: people as Novak Djokovic have very good level so-called gnostic and related moving coordinating functions. They have very good abilities to evaluate infos from their body joints, muscles, tendons. They have better optical processing of informations also from other human sensors including acoustics. Therefore Novak sees a ball nearly in a slow motion, which is in a big contrast with normal mortals.

Novak has an exceptional optical processing. He sees a detail by far earlier than you and has better ability of deep sight. He can early recognize a ball speed, prognoses its trajectory and length. He also feels his body, muscle informatition and tendons, which gives him a feeling for his move. He can recognize 2 grammes on his racket.

The article looks a bit as writing about Nikola Tesla. I took it from Czech tennis forum.

by noleisthebest Fri May 15, 2015 2:46 pm

Interesting...

Nole is definitely a very fine athlete, I love the way he walks.

As for his visual abilities, I wonder how Kolar measures it.

Seeing the ball early and big is very useful, but anticipation and fast legs play a part, too.

As for being able to feel 2g difference...I don't think that's very rare, even I have that ability!

I won a few bets in my club by being able to tell which racquet is heavier Winking

by Tenez Fri May 15, 2015 3:49 pm

paulcz wrote:Czech best known sport physioterapist Dr. Kolar, who cares about best Czech sportsmen and also Novak Djokovic said following: people as Novak Djokovic have very good level so-called gnostic and related moving coordinating functions. They have very good abilities to evaluate infos from their body joints, muscles, tendons. They have better optical processing of informations also from other human sensors including acoustics. Therefore Novak sees a ball nearly in a slow motion, which is in a big contrast with normal mortals.

Novak has an exceptional optical processing. He sees a detail by far earlier than you and has better ability of deep sight. He can early recognize a ball speed, prognoses its trajectory and length. He also feels his body, muscle informatition and tendons, which gives him a feeling for his move. He can recognize 2 grammes on his racket.

The article looks a bit as writing about Nikola Tesla. I took it from Czech tennis forum.

I actually disagree....unless he is referring to Djoko as a high level athlete compared to us normal people. But Djoko is certainly nothing extraordinary in terms of eye/hand coordination when compared to the other talented players. Djoko's strength is his mouvement, certainly, but without it, he would win less than half his macth. The biggest challenge for all players when playing Djoko is to hit past him.....like Nishi is sadly experiencing now.

by paulcz Fri May 15, 2015 7:30 pm

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:Czech best known sport physioterapist Dr. Kolar, who cares about best Czech sportsmen and also Novak Djokovic said following: people as Novak Djokovic have very good level so-called gnostic and related moving coordinating functions. They have very good abilities to evaluate infos from their body joints, muscles, tendons. They have better optical processing of informations also from other human sensors including acoustics. Therefore Novak sees a ball nearly in a slow motion, which is in a big contrast with normal mortals.

Novak has an exceptional optical processing. He sees a detail by far earlier than you and has better ability of deep sight. He can early recognize a ball speed, prognoses its trajectory and length. He also feels his body, muscle informatition and tendons, which gives him a feeling for his move. He can recognize 2 grammes on his racket.

The article looks a bit as writing about Nikola Tesla. I took it from Czech tennis forum.
I actually disagree....unless he is referring to Djoko as a high level athlete compared to us normal people. But Djoko is certainly nothing extraordinary in terms of eye/hand coordination when compared to the other talented players. Djoko's strength is his mouvement, certainly, but without it, he would win less than half his macth. The biggest challenge for all players when playing Djoko is to hit past him.....like Nishi is sadly experiencing now.

I am quite convinced that Nole's with Fed are players, who see the ball in the most perfect way. They both can mark the ball bounce accurately after serves, both quickly react on serves / aces / balls close to lines. Nadal is also a player with supreme reflexes. But behind them is a gap.
If I should describe their moves, then Fed's footwork has been more dynamic, I'd say quicker and his forward move is really better. Nole's advantage is in his stretching, due to DHBH and sliding his lateral move looks extraordinary and that is supported his amazing reflexes. Nole can really return ball with exceptional feeling for a length and direction. His skinny body just can't generate so dynamic for a quick and heavy hitting, so that he must rely on his legs. But his reflexes / eyes look really excellent.

by Tenez Fri May 15, 2015 10:58 pm

Honestly, Quite a few players see the ball better thna Nole and Nole is not in teh league of federer. Just look at the volleys, serve and everything else. Do you really think that Nole coudl challenge Federer with a SHBH and a 90inch racquet? he woudl not get a single game.

Furthermore we saw today that Nishi has much better eye/hand coord than Djoko too....and he is not the only one.

You are underestimating Djoko's mouvement. It's everything in his game.

by paulcz Sat May 16, 2015 8:21 am

Tenez wrote:Honestly, Quite a few players see the ball better thna Nole and Nole is not in teh league of federer. Just look at the volleys, serve and everything else. Do you really think that Nole coudl challenge Federer with a SHBH and a 90inch racquet? he woudl not get a single game.

Furthermore we saw today that Nishi has much better eye/hand coord than Djoko too....and he is not the only one.

You are underestimating Djoko's mouvement. It's everything in his game.

If they could, why do they return by a level worse than Nole. Nole's reflexes are surely top at the current game.

You can't compare Nole's volleys and overal net game with Fed. That's a basic difference between SH and DHBH. Therefore nobody can't say what Nole's game would look like if he played SHBH. But as we know Nole's natural approach is not attacking player, but his improvement is striking from a period before a couple years ago.

Neither you can't say that Nishi has much better eye/hand coord. Nishi's body is shorter by 10cm, so his shorter hands gives him an advantage of taking a ball early and closer to BL. His body can generate more power from shorter swing. Nishi's net game is not good either.

As you say don't underestimate Nole's movement, that statement is absolutely valid for Fed's game. I remember when Fed's game was at the top, at that time all tennis experts and players used to say that his supreme tennis level is just based on his fantastic movement. Just SHBH needs to have a better movement and footwork than DHBH, that is just a basic tennis rule.

by Tenez Sat May 16, 2015 9:18 am

paulcz wrote:If they could, why do they return by a level worse than Nole. Nole's reflexes are surely top at the current game.

Because once again, returning has a lot to do with mouvement nowadays. And Nishi returns better than Djoko..despite a much smaller wingspan.

You can't compare Nole's volleys and overal net game with Fed. That's a basic difference between SH and DHBH. Therefore nobody can't say what Nole's game would look like if he played SHBH. But as we know Nole's natural approach is not attacking player, but his improvement is striking from a period before a couple years ago.

Even Murray has better volleys. I was just saying that had Djoko been trained with SHBH (lets say he was born 10 years earlier) no way he woudl have have been able to challenge Fed on the BH. It woudl be Fh plumelling Djoko's BH until an easy UE came. Even with 2 hands on his BH and a larger frame he makes a few UEs.....imagine with a shbh a smaller frame and much less confidence!

Neither you can't say that Nishi has much better eye/hand coord. Nishi's body is shorter by 10cm, so his shorter hands gives him an advantage of taking a ball early and closer to BL. His body can generate more power from shorter swing. Nishi's net game is not good either.

I think it is obvious Nishi has better eye'hand coord.....As he gets better depth and pace thna Djoko. Nishi chooses to do more with the ball than Djoko.

As you say don't underestimate Nole's movement, that statement is absolutely valid for Fed's game. I remember when Fed's game was at the top, at that time all tennis experts and players used to say that his supreme tennis level is just based on his fantastic movement. Just SHBH needs to have a better movement and footwork than DHBH, that is just a basic tennis rule.

yes Fed mouvement is great, especially the footwork but no way fed gets to balls Nole does....Fed doesn't even try on some Nole goes for.

We will have to agree to disagree here but I can tell you that Nole won't be remembered for his hands and reflexes....but for his amazing retrieving skills and one is labelled a "counter-puncher" for a very good reason: cause one can't punch first!

by paulcz Sat May 16, 2015 12:47 pm

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:If they could, why do they return by a level worse than Nole. Nole's reflexes are surely top at the current game.
Because once again, returning has a lot to do with mouvement nowadays. And Nishi returns better than Djoko..despite a much smaller wingspan.

You can't compare Nole's volleys and overal net game with Fed. That's a basic difference between SH and DHBH. Therefore nobody can't say what Nole's game would look like if he played SHBH. But as we know Nole's natural approach is not attacking player, but his improvement is striking from a period before a couple years ago.
Even Murray has better volleys. I was just saying that had Djoko been trained with SHBH (lets say he was born 10 years earlier) no way he woudl have have been able to challenge Fed on the BH. It woudl be Fh plumelling Djoko's BH until an easy UE came. Even with 2 hands on his BH and a larger frame he makes a few UEs.....imagine with a shbh a smaller frame and much less confidence!

Neither you can't say that Nishi has much better eye/hand coord. Nishi's body is shorter by 10cm, so his shorter hands gives him an advantage of taking a ball early and closer to BL. His body can generate more power from shorter swing. Nishi's net game is not good either.
I think it is obvious Nishi has better eye'hand coord.....As he gets better depth and pace thna Djoko. Nishi chooses to do more with the ball than Djoko.

As you say don't underestimate Nole's movement, that statement is absolutely valid for Fed's game. I remember when Fed's game was at the top, at that time all tennis experts and players used to say that his supreme tennis level is just based on his fantastic movement. Just SHBH needs to have a better movement and footwork than DHBH, that is just a basic tennis rule.
yes Fed mouvement is great, especially the footwork but no way fed gets to balls Nole does....Fed doesn't even try on some Nole goes for.

We will have to agree to disagree here but I can tell you that Nole won't be remembered for his hands and reflexes....but for his amazing retrieving skills and one is labelled a "counter-puncher" for a very good reason: cause one can't punch first!

Paragraphs by points:

- Nole's returning is one of the best ever. Some returning stats based on returned winning points can be found here
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/MatchFacts.aspx
Nole is the 1st and 4th, Nishi 7th and 16th - quite striking difference

- if, if  x player played with x racket, with x holding racket, then x player would play with x confidence and had x game and x ...... we can imagine a lot of thing, can't we :-)
Re Murray, although his body generate much more power and dynamics, he goes to the net less often than Nole even his body dispositions are better.

- with Nishi's body height 178cm he just needs to play faster and closer to lines, otherwise he has no chance to succeed with the best, that is his must. Then if he had so supreme eye-hand coordination as you say, then it is a big surprise and a waste of his talent  why he is not going to the net more often.

- I cited some MUDr. Kolar's perceptions from his experiences with Novak and I think that he can compare his body reflexes with other top players as Berdych and Step are. I can see superior reactions of Novak in the game even though he lacks fantastic body dynamics of Fed and his overal approach is not being an attacking killer.

by paulcz Sun May 17, 2015 5:55 pm

Congrats to Nole and also Fed and commiseraton to Fed's fans. I think that Nole's performance should convince Tenez and some Fed's fans that Nole can also outplay Fed by his aggressive allcourt game and not relying on his legs. Nole had better 5 shots winning balls 41 to 34 and without aces (5 to 3 in Fed's favor) winners were within 2 points. They both played brilliant tennis and there were not much between them. Nole has improved serve and forehand to his best level and added his brilliant return, which moved the scale to his side. That was the tennis match, well done Thumbs Up

by Tenez Sun May 17, 2015 10:55 pm

I am afraid, I am not convinced at all. Nole is benefitting immensely from his mouvement and DHBH. But again today it was so obvious who was by a mile more talented. Djoko was solid but far far from brilliant.

I am convinced that had Djoko been forced to adopt a SHBH he woudl be nowhere close to federer despite the age difference. It's just a bit unfortunate for Fed to be learning right when the conditions were changing....though he turned our sport into an art....and a lot of us can see clearly the huge gap between those 2 players. Djoko will be caught by a whole new generation soon....despite his "professionalism".

by paulcz Mon May 18, 2015 11:19 am

Tenez wrote:I am afraid, I am not convinced at all. Nole is benefitting immensely from his mouvement and DHBH. But again today it was so obvious who was by a mile more talented. Djoko was solid but far far from brilliant.

I am convinced that had Djoko been forced to adopt a SHBH he woudl be nowhere close to federer despite the age difference. It's just a bit unfortunate for Fed to be learning right when the conditions were changing....though he turned our sport into an art....and a lot of us can see clearly the huge gap between those 2 players. Djoko will be caught by a whole new generation soon....despite his "professionalism".

Ten, either you don’t read my posts properly or you are a politician Winking

There was nothing mentioned about talent or movement or backhand. I just saw the match, when Nole outplayed Fed by his game and not by relying on his legs and that was on the slow CLAY, the surface on which as you have always claimed, Nole beats his rivals only by outlasting. The main supportive stats for that is is a stat who won more balls under 5 shots. To a surprise, the clear winner is Nole (41 to 34). The other stat, which supports that fact was that in the 1st set Fed had more run distance in meters against Nole (680/610) or so and I don't think that it changed much in the second set. Just Nole was superior in their match.

by Tenez Mon May 18, 2015 12:34 pm

paulcz wrote:
Tenez wrote:I am afraid, I am not convinced at all. Nole is benefitting immensely from his mouvement and DHBH. But again today it was so obvious who was by a mile more talented. Djoko was solid but far far from brilliant.

I am convinced that had Djoko been forced to adopt a SHBH he woudl be nowhere close to federer despite the age difference. It's just a bit unfortunate for Fed to be learning right when the conditions were changing....though he turned our sport into an art....and a lot of us can see clearly the huge gap between those 2 players. Djoko will be caught by a whole new generation soon....despite his "professionalism".

Ten, either you don’t read my posts properly or you are a politician

There was nothing mentioned about talent or movement or backhand. I just saw the match, when Nole outplayed Fed by his game and not by relying on his legs and that was on the slow CLAY, the surface on which as you have always claimed, Nole beats his rivals only by outlasting. The main supportive stats for that is is a stat who won more balls under 5 shots. To a surprise, the clear winner is Nole (41 to 34). The other stat, which supports that fact was that in the 1st set Fed had more run distance in meters against Nole (680/610) or so and I don't think that it changed much in the second set. Just Nole was superior in their match.

But that's not due to Nole's special shot quality, it is of course due to mouvement and DHBHs. If you look at it it's so clear how Djoko manages to return those serves with his BH, and more so cause your rubber band player can get to those balls no-one can and his DHBH allows him to return with a purpose. Federer had no choice but to try to shorten those rallies hence take max of risk, hence bad stats on the short rallies as well. Djoko mouvement allows him also to have enough time to turn around his BH and dictate with his FH...cause Feds BH comes back slower.

I am afraid but Djoko is the new fitness benchmark on the tour. Nadal is an has-been in comparison.

Almost all shots from Fed had more purpose than Djoko, don't you think?

by paulcz Mon May 18, 2015 1:28 pm

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:
Tenez wrote:I am afraid, I am not convinced at all. Nole is benefitting immensely from his mouvement and DHBH. But again today it was so obvious who was by a mile more talented. Djoko was solid but far far from brilliant.

I am convinced that had Djoko been forced to adopt a SHBH he woudl be nowhere close to federer despite the age difference. It's just a bit unfortunate for Fed to be learning right when the conditions were changing....though he turned our sport into an art....and a lot of us can see clearly the huge gap between those 2 players. Djoko will be caught by a whole new generation soon....despite his "professionalism".

Ten, either you don’t read my posts properly or you are a politician

There was nothing mentioned about talent or movement or backhand. I just saw the match, when Nole outplayed Fed by his game and not by relying on his legs and that was on the slow CLAY, the surface on which as you have always claimed, Nole beats his rivals only by outlasting. The main supportive stats for that is is a stat who won more balls under 5 shots. To a surprise, the clear winner is Nole (41 to 34). The other stat, which supports that fact was that in the 1st set Fed had more run distance in meters against Nole (680/610) or so and I don't think that it changed much in the second set. Just Nole was superior in their match.

But that's not due to Nole's special shot quality, it is of course due to mouvement and DHBHs. If you look at it it's so clear how Djoko manages to return those serves with his BH, and more so cause your rubber band player can get to those balls no-one can and his DHBH allows him to return with a purpose. Federer had no choice but to try to shorten those rallies hence take max of risk, hence bad stats on the short rallies as well. Djoko mouvement allows him also to have enough time to turn around his BH and dictate with his FH...cause Feds BH comes back slower.

I am afraid but Djoko is the new fitness benchmark on the tour. Nadal is an has-been in comparison.

Almost all shots from Fed had more purpose than Djoko, don't you think?

No big improvement Ten, then definitely your role is in politics Big Grin

I did not mention something special about Nole's shot qualiy, but his overall aggressive approach in that match with Fed on CLAY.
You mention Fed's mistakes from shortening the rallies, but Nole was more succesfull in these short rallies, where is then relying on legs. Nole did not have to outlast Fed due to the fact, that he was just better than Fed in short points.

You keep bringing in movement here, but it is not what I say. Movement quality does not equal relying on his legs / stamina. It can't be so difficult to get it. Come on, cheer up! Winking

by Tenez Mon May 18, 2015 5:15 pm

Look how poor Djoko's reflexes are:

https://vine.co/v/eAZtjqXM5Dz

by noleisthebest Mon May 18, 2015 5:33 pm

I saw that! Yikes

I suppose that's contract with Moet as a sponsor gone out of the window now...

At least he's got a sparkling personality Winking

by paulcz Tue May 19, 2015 2:02 pm

Tenez wrote:Look how poor Djoko's reflexes are:

https://vine.co/v/eAZtjqXM5Dz

He looks like he did open the first time, he must have lost his contact lenses then.

He can be happy that his eyes survived. That is quite amateurish action from Nole, just he needs to take some practise in that. BB should advice him Winking

by paulcz Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:12 pm

-"Rafael, We have a situation."
- "What do you mean?" - He asked.
- "I'm saying that we have a problem" - I repeated. "His name is Novak Djokovic and he is playing against Juan Monaco on court 18 ".

It is a good time for this reminiscence from Wimbledon 2005. Even Toni can be right sometimes.

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Toni-Nadal-and-the-Prophecy-on-Novak-Djokovic-at-Wimbledon-2005-articolo24311.html

by Tenez Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:10 am

very good piece of information Paul.

I actually suspect that Toni had also foreseen the danger (situation as he says) of playing Nalbandian earlier in the rounds and managed to avoid Nalby for 2 years when both were number 2 and 3 ....no different than sending later Djoko on Federer's side for 4 year!!!

by gallery play Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:18 am

It would have been great to find some footage of that match, but too bad there isn't any.

This one's interesting too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0vAKePWLJg

It was a straight forward win for Marat but it's striking that Djoko dominates quite some rallies, against peak Marat!
Usually if you compare footage of recent clips and 10-15 year old clips, you see a completely different player. (like the very clumsy moving Federer of 1999) but in Djoko's case there is not much difference.

Well, there is one big difference: he plays much safer/patient now. Much to my regret..

by Tenez Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:40 am

t's funny when watching that clip I realised "how safe" Djoko was as well then actually. I remembered him being an agressive player but in fact certainly not very aggressive. Sure he goes for more shots cause the very one sided score invites him to go more more but already then he looked a retriever.

What's interesting in this link you provided GP is to see how much "better" the new youngsters - mouvement wise (Coric, Kokki,...) and have also more powerful shots - are than Djoko at the same age....yet....They don't go anywhere nowadays until they reach 25+!!!

by noleisthebest Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:47 am

I remember young Nole in Wimbledon...funnily, his game (on grass) then was better than now...he was so light on his feet and quick with the FH.
Everything ground to a halt after 2010, though when things slowed down and players started pumping themselves in the gym.

Nadal "raised the bar", and the rest had no choice but to follow.
Now, the young generation is quite good, just lacking in match experience and a bit of stamina.
My only sadness (and that is a very big sadness) is that SBH (i.e. Real tennis) will die after Fed.

by noleisthebest Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:02 am

Unfortunately, only one short clip of Nole in Wimbledon (2006), but even there you get the picture smiley

Quite unreal to see him play on a little side court now!

by paulcz Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:01 pm

Great win for Nole, but still one step to do Bubbly

It is unbelievable how Nole could handle with the pressure from absolute retrieving of Murray in the fifth set. Hat off to Nole.

Both my most favorite players in the final, but to be honest Novak would deserve that more. Going through such a terrible draw, to sweep out court with Nadal and demolish Murray, who are the best clay current players justifies Nole to take his missing great title. IDEMO NOLE Magic

by noleisthebest Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:04 pm

Yes Paul, a brilliant win for Nole!

I am so happy he did it!!!!
Especially as again he had the crowd against him.

But we know quality is always worth more than quantity! Bubbly

by noleisthebest Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:58 pm

Let others cheer the winning man,
There’s one I hold worthwhile;
‘Tis he who does the best he can,
Then loses with a smile.
Beaten he is, but not to stay
Down with the rank and file;
That man will win some other day,
Who loses with a smile. Rose

Thy will be done.

by legendkillar Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:59 pm

NITB I thought if you could shed any further light on the importance Riccardo Piatti had on Novak.

Mark Petchey recalled a story at Wimbledon at 2005 when he was coaching Andy and he was watching a practice session with Djokovic and Piatti in which Novak was hitting short ball after short ball and Piatti pulled Novak to one side and said "Look your strokes have to have longer length. It needs to be right on the baseline."

I thought it was a great insight that it was being drilled into Novak about the importance of length.

by paulcz Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:40 am

Big congrats to Nole and also Fed for their performance. I know that this loss is heavy for him and Fed’s fans, but let’s look at the things in the tennis perspective and stay positive, because we still have hungry Fed here. Fed, at nearly 34 years still plays level of tennis, who nobody at this age has been able to play.

My preferred player is Novak and must say I am really happy for his deserved win. He doesn’t play with Fed’s variability, flair (which with DBHB actually is not possible) and amazing volleying skill, but his domain is absolute rock solidness within all tennis aspects. He really grew up as a player as well as a man and he managed to improve his mindset on the game. and is able to adjust his game to the best players on the circuit.

From the final I saw that Nole focused on his serve, which was a key factor for his win. Nole knew that he mustn’t be pushed away far behind the BL. I think everybody who played tennis must have enjoyed how players fought for gaining more ground in order to open an opposite court for playing a winner. Although Novak was nervous in the first two sets, he still managed to hold his serve and fought out the key points. After he got more confidence and moved more to the net, Fed was rushed, which is a point, when he crushes mentally.

Nole is a player who likes the biggest challenges. I hope that he stays healthy for a couple of years and his fans will see him lift more big trophies.

by noleisthebest Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:55 pm

I suppose you are right Paul about DBH-ers not being able to be as creative as SBH-ers (though, Fognini is probably the most creative player on clay and he has a DBH).

What annoys me more than anything these days is watching that unfair physical advantage DBH-ers have, particularly if they use it to hammer the SBH.
That is easy and cowardly.

I know professional tennis is business, and they all want to win, but I can't respect it.
I like brave and chivalrous players.

Although I paid a lot more attention to how Federer played, I also noticed how much more physically powerful Nole was in the final (esp in 3rd and 4th sets) and that looked surprising, especially after seeing him spent and weak in RG final against Stan.
It would have been nice to see fresh Federer versus Nole yesterday.

I wanted Fed to win badly as he sums up everything I love in tennis and I admire the pain and heart he puts into it.

As as long as he continues to play I will support him.

Once he retires, tennis will never be the same. Never.

by paulcz Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:52 pm

Yes Nitb, SHBH vs. DBHB, that is the contrast of basic styles and the beauty can be recognized just in contrasts. SHBH’s have always better feel for volleys and therefore better transition to the net, play better slices, but DBHB’s advantages prevail on current conditions with today’s racket technology. The best matchup of these styles represents Nole playing Fed. I prefer seeing a war of contrasts, a tactical game between different styles against a S/V fest.

I like watching Nole’s tactical game, how he adjusts his game to the best players. His movement supported by his amazing reflexes gives him a great advantage against his opponents. I still think that his potential is not fully utilized and if a new challenge appears, he can still have something to add on the courts. We know that Nole likes the biggest challenges.

Nole have a trouble in matches, when he is not fully focused on the game, when he plays more passively and allows players dictate a game rhytm too much. Then it is really difficult to change the scale of the game. Rellying on legs with aggressive players like Stan, Berd, Dolgo, which can be tricky as it showed in this RF final. He can get through these players also by relying on his legs, but it has its consequences. RG’s draw together with his match scheduling was the worst, which Nole could get it. After beating Nadal and Murray it was a big question mark how he was able to recuperate his energy and be mentally ready for the final. Nole looked out of his sort and was drained in all aspects. I stopped watching the match after the second set. Nole’s body doesn’t just generate such a power on slow surfaces and with these damn slow balls he had troubles to go for the winners. On the other hand Stan chose a right tactics when he could speed up the ball by his projectiles after slowish baseline game. Nole’s very good serving and amazing returning is just bigger advantage on faster surfaces.

The GS draws have very important role and consecutive matches between top players take it’s a toll in a run for the title (like playing Murray in GS semi). RG was the most blatant case how the organizers can affect outcome of the event.

I hope that organizers will speed up the game, which brings in more contrasts into the game and also wish seeing Fed on the courts for a couple of good years.

by Tenez Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:07 pm

It's not the SBH v DBH the problem here, though clearly Djoko woudl go nowhere if tennis had to be played with one hand.

Do you remember the first point of the first set TB? It's the one which set the tone to the TB. It discouraged Federer.

Fed plays a gutsy shot (drop shot volley) but Djoko gets there in time and places in the corner. No-one woudl have got that angled drop shot bar Djoko.

It's Djoko's mouvement that is his strength, nothing else. His shots are ok but really nothing special....but they look better than they are cause he is there with time to spare.

I don;t think the scheduling affected Djoko much in that FO....Stan deserved it head and shoulders.

by noleisthebest Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm

paulcz wrote:Yes Nitb, SHBH vs. DBHB, that is the contrast of basic styles and the beauty can be recognized just in contrasts. SHBH’s have always better feel for volleys and therefore better transition to the net, play better slices, but DBHB’s advantages prevail on current conditions with today’s racket technology. The best matchup of these styles represents Nole playing Fed. I prefer seeing a war of contrasts, a tactical game between different styles against a S/V fest.

For me, Paul, DBH is not a style...it's the wrong way to play tennis.

It's like fake tan, silicone implants...a third eye in the forehead!

Just plain wrong.

It should have never been allowed. I just wish I knew who said the final yes to it so I could write him/her a letter...

But that's my personal moan and most people don't understand me.

Even those who play with a SBH!

Of course, I love tennis and I can't stop watching it because of DBH...but it's getting close.

Even this year, I had tickets for Centre court...I just couldn't be bothered to go so I sold them...walked around smaller courts and managed to see Thiem (lose to Verdasco!!!)...

by Tenez Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:34 pm

noleisthebest wrote:It's like fake tan, silicone implants...a third eye in the forehead!

.

At least I think it's natural for some (Nalby, Borg, Rios, etc...) But Djoko I agree, it;s manufactured like about everything in his game.

by paulcz Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:35 pm

Tenez wrote:It's not the SBH v DBH the problem here, though clearly Djoko woudl go nowhere if tennis had to be played with one hand.

Do you remember the first point of the first set TB? It's the one which set the tone to the TB. It discouraged Federer.

Fed plays a gutsy shot (drop shot volley) but Djoko gets there in time and places in the corner. No-one woudl have got that angled drop shot bar Djoko.

It's Djoko's mouvement that is his strength, nothing else. His shots are ok but really nothing special....but they look better than they are cause he is there with time to spare.

I don;t think the scheduling affected Djoko much in that FO....Stan deserved it head and shoulders.

It is the same song, Fed's BH side is his weakness. He spends a lot of energy by running around it and opening up the FH's side of the court, here is nothing to discuss.

That wasnt standard Nole in the final, he was highly subpar in this match. The draw with his later match scheduling must have had an effect on him in the final, altough the biggest effect had his long match with Murray. That drawned of him a lot of physical and mental energy. It was really good that it was Stan who won it and Nole took a lot from that final for sure. I look for their match a lot.

by Tenez Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:54 pm

Same as fed's BH is only a weakness against guys who can run so fast. And again, despite this weakness Fed was the first to hold the first set points.

I think you have often underestimated Stan's game. He beat him twice recently and was very close to beat him at the AO a couple of years ago. The reason is simple, Stan's power can outrun Djoko's legs.

by noleisthebest Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:13 pm

Tenez wrote:
At least I think it's natural for some (Nalby, Borg, Rios, etc...) But Djoko I agree, it;s manufactured like about everything in his game.

I'm afraid there is is nothing natural in a DBH.

Must be a fanboy talking in you... Laugh

by Tenez Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:44 pm

Not really. I have seen players looking natural with a DBH. Even Courier for instance, you could tell his DHBH was natural to him, like someone holding a baseball bat. But I can't think of a natural shot when it comes to Djoko.

A bit like Lendl.....but Lendl had the most natural FH.

by noleisthebest Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:58 pm

For me, DBH is not a natural shot, full stop.

Who ever played or is playing with it does it because their SBH is not good enough.
B grade players.

by Tenez Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:54 am

For some, like Santoro, it's even natural to play 2 hands from both sides.

by noleisthebest Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:48 am

I am sure Federer would have looked just as natural with two hands...but that's not the point, is it?

by Tenez Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:04 am

But you can say that Federer's game looks the most natural in the sense that it is the most efficient energy tennis played but other styles are also "natural".

A cheetah is as natural as an elephant. They just have different aims, or weapons.

It's true however that there is no DBH in other racquet sports...as far as I am aware.

by noleisthebest Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:11 am

Unlike men, animals are not greedy.

by Tenez Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:15 am

noleisthebest wrote:Unlike men, animals are not greedy.

Sorry I have lost the link with DHBH! Winking

by noleisthebest Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:34 am

Well, originally DBH was breaking a rule...or rather changing it...to gain unfair advantage, in order to win but - basically to make money, so just like cheetas and elephants, people are also natural and have their differences, but the one that sets them apart from animals is greed.

by Tenez Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:04 pm

That's one angle of seeing things. i'd say it's the constant quest of our species to improve. It's inherent to our nature.

But going back to tennis. We certainly have a battle of talent v fitness.....always been but that battle has been lost entirely to the fitness side since the arrival of the new roadrunners species.

by paulcz Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:47 pm

There was a question who is a superior grass player, Nole or Murray?

IMO Novak is much better player than Murray generally and I think that he is a superior player also on standard grass courts. He has done a big improvement on the grass since having BB on the bench on technical side, but the huge difference is in their mentality. Nole is much tougher player in this area. Sometimes just one bad ball from Murray and he collapses (Lendl helped enourmously in that area, but it got into the the same groove as before after they separated).
Murray uses much less swing on his FH side and hits it flatter against Nole. But due to the fact that he plays mostly from an absolute open stance with a minimum of forward move, it is not powerful and lacks of length. He just muscles the ball with an effort to give the ball a power from his body rotation. But that can’t be played as standard FH that way. He looks really passive and too heavy, like he would have a ten kilos weight on his feet. His BH is really ok and can play really nice flat winners and slices from that wing.
I will not mention the difference in the second serve and on the return and Nole’s improvent on volleys and smashes. The most striking thing is that Novak is able to see the ball much better than his opponents and can speed up the ball from both sides massively. I still see some Novak’s hitting of Fed’s hard hit forehands, when Novak was able to play them as half volleys. His move supported by super reflexes gives him a big advantage against his opponents even if he is not a natural attacking player. Murray’s move is not worse against Nole on grass and I am not affraid to say that it is even better. His powerful legs offset Nole’s flexibility and his court coverage is fully comparable with Nole.
Murray can play a very good efficient grass tennis, but I see Nole’s current grass game as superior due to Murray’s worse mental side with mentioned technical flaws.

by Tenez Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:25 pm

Paul...it's all about mouvement. Djoko's shots are actually not nice. If he was so amazing as you say he'd have the crowd behind him but the crowd is not buying it, despite loving number 1s.

Take a step out of Djoko....and you will see how mortal he is. However having great mouvement is certainly to his merit. But it's no different praying Nadal for a lot of things like his fans do but take 5% off nadal's power and again he is a poor player.

by Tenez Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:31 pm

Looks I just picked a clip on youtube meant to show how good he is:

Look at his shots.....ugly! but helped by amazing footwork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehfNra5K90I

by noleisthebest Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:32 pm

But Nole is better than Murray...on any surface.

Yes, the movement helps him no end.
Still, he keeps improving...I was almost taken aback with the pace he was able to get on his groundstrokes in the final. He has definitely improved his timing.

And against Murray, being lighter than him, he is simply more energy efficient so will always outlast him if nothing else.

The only time Murray has a chance against Nole/Federer is if he came exhausted from previous matches, like in Wimbledon final 2013.

A Stan-Nole match on grass would've been an interesting one to see, but it didn't come to it.

Nole-Murray are similar yet so different. Definitely belong to the same school of tennis, though.

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