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WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 14 Empty Re: WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:08 am

noleisthebest wrote:Fed admirers have nothing to worry about, the full package is still there, will still be the man to beat in SW19 next summer.

He will be there or thereabout but I think this new technology is really tiring a player who coudl have had easily 2 or 3 years more at teh very top without this string technology.

I find it a robbery to be able to topspin the ball so easily and send players corner to corner while in the past that was a very risky shot to topspin with sharp angles. You will not see similar rallies in the past. This is teh difference between pre and post 2006. We may always say that Fed can also use those sharp angles so it evens out....but the answer is you can really use them and "stay" with them if you are young and fit enough.

I am not sure what's the solution but for now I can only think about faster and harder balls responding less to this new string technology.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:16 am

Tenez wrote:

That's the funny bit. How can you demonstrate he was tired "mentally" when you cannot even see he was tired physically? Once you play teh game other than recreational you may understand what being "Physically" tired really means...and then you will see how it affects your mental side of it if you see a young player jumping mad on the other side of the net.

I have played enough sport in my life to know what physically tired means, as well as mentally.
You seem to think that mental fatigue is exclusively a product of physical exhaustion, I don't.

In last night's match case, Federer made a tactical mistake of not being aggressive and playing in the court more. That court was not fast enough for him to beat Nole from the base-line last night.
The same Novak was across the net in Wimbledon semi-final and what happened there?

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Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:30 am

noleisthebest wrote:
I have played enough sport in my life to know what physically tired means, as well as mentally.
You seem to think that mental fatigue is exclusively a product of physical exhaustion, I don't.

If mental fatigue is not "exclusively" a product of physical exhaustion for an athlete where can it come from? Especially for Fed who is an instinctive player whose best tennis flows without thinking when physically fresh? Have you ever seen Fed or any other athlete being mentally fatigued when clearly physically fresh like after a 2 month rest?????


In last night's match case, Federer made a tactical mistake of not being aggressive
NOt at all. Look at the key points, They speak for themselves. they came from UEs made by Federer rushing his shots cause he tried to actually shorten rallies while unable to push on his legs to execute basic winners he typically delivers in buckets.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:34 am

I am not sure why we need to discuss this as even Djoko says it himself.

The difference between Murray and Djoko is really clear and defined by Federer. When Murray is on the back foot, he lifts the ball up and provides Federer with a smash or volley to put away. Djoko can still create pace and power even if outside the trameline send the ball with enough angle and force some more running.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:35 am

Tenez wrote:

If mental fatigue is not "exclusively" a product of physical exhaustion for an athlete where can it come from?

From the knowledge that the guy across the net is not going anywhere in a hurry and has what it takes to beat you.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:40 am

Tenez wrote:I am not sure why we need to discuss this as even Djoko says it himself.

The difference between Murray and Djoko is really clear and defined by Federer. When Murray is on the back foot, he lifts the ball up and provides Federer with a smash or volley to put away. Djoko can still create pace and power even if outside the trameline send the ball with enough angle and force some more running.

I know all that, but the tactics were wrong, he spent too much time on the base-line, O2 turned out to be a step too slow for Fed against Nole last night, Federer almost pulled it off, but didn't.
I'm sure if he could replay the match he'd go forward a bit more often. that's what brought him the win against Murray both in O2 and Wimbledon.
Novak is too good a mover and base-liner on slower hard-courts for anyone now.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:50 am

noleisthebest wrote:Novak is too good a mover and base-liner on slower hard-courts for anyone now.

The pace of teh court is something that coudl have helped but a fresh Fed is simply good enough to put Djoko away even on slow courts. He did it 2 years ago in brilliant fashion. All commentators were mentioning Fed's physical fatigue.

There is a reason why Fed started super strong and then quickly lost explosiveness...and being 3/0 up doesn't make you mentally tired!

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Post by laverfan on Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:05 am

Tenez wrote:It's like congratulating your banker cause he made lots of money thanks to the interest you are paying him back. Shall I say sour grapes cause you don't send your banker a Xmas card?

The conundrum of capitalism. If you do not get that loan, you do not need to pay the interest and you may never meet that banker. Winking

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:12 am

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Novak is too good a mover and base-liner on slower hard-courts for anyone now.

The pace of teh court is something that coudl have helped but a fresh Fed is simply good enough to put Djoko away even on slow courts. He did it 2 years ago in brilliant fashion. All commentators were mentioning Fed's physical fatigue.

There is a reason why Fed started super strong and then quickly lost explosiveness...and being 3/0 up doesn't make you mentally tired!

To be perfectly honest, the court this year looked slower than two years ago.
I have been in the O2 all 4 years it's been around, and saw the final two years ago, when Federer beat Nadal. The court definitely looked/played faster.
It's not as slow as AO, but I'd say it was medium slow enough to give everyone a chance.
I had no benefit of watching facial close-ups and deduce who was tired and when like that, I was only observing the actual tennis and how the match played.
And from what I could see, Novak's defence absorbed all Fed had to offer. Fed was attacking more and was pretty sharp, he certainly had Nole on the ropes more than once, just couldn't capitalise on it.
He lost focus (mental fatigue due to his attacking failing to overcome Novak's defence) briefly and that was enough.
It was only one point that separated them at the end of the match 96:95.

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Post by gallery play on Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:17 am

Tenez wrote:
The difference between Murray and Djoko is really clear and defined by Federer. When Murray is on the back foot, he lifts the ball up and provides Federer with a smash or volley to put away. Djoko can still create pace and power even if outside the trameline send the ball with enough angle and force some more running.

Just like Nadal..
He said he likes to hit passing shots, in fact he likes to hit one from nowhere land, which is why he's a counterpuncher in optima forma.

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Post by gallery play on Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:20 am

Tenez wrote:
If mental fatigue is not "exclusively" a product of physical exhaustion for an athlete where can it come from? Especially for Fed who is an instinctive player whose best tennis flows without thinking when physically fresh? Have you ever seen Fed or any other athlete being mentally fatigued when clearly physically fresh like after a 2 month rest?????

Good point.
Golf players are very fit these days. They know it helps them to get the right focus to put a clutch 4 footer after 4 days of golf

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Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:32 am

gallery play wrote:
Tenez wrote:
The difference between Murray and Djoko is really clear and defined by Federer. When Murray is on the back foot, he lifts the ball up and provides Federer with a smash or volley to put away. Djoko can still create pace and power even if outside the trameline send the ball with enough angle and force some more running.

Just like Nadal..
He said he likes to hit passing shots, in fact he likes to hit one from nowhere land, which is why he's a counterpuncher in optima forma.

Indeed and that MP passing shot for instance would have had much less pace with nat gut or would have had to be hit much flatter to get the same pace mking it a much risker shot....but more importantly woudl not have dipped away from Federer.

I tell you there is something weird with today's tennis that compensates the fastest/fittest at the expense of the risk taker.

They need to do something about it....unless the next generation of JJ and Rao can blast their way past those retrievers....but it might never look as nice to watch.

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Post by laverfan on Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:51 am

https://imgur.com/chXH9

https://imgur.com/TXQU9

Interesting bit of statistics.

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Post by gallery play on Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:19 pm

laverfan wrote:https://imgur.com/chXH9

https://imgur.com/TXQU9

Interesting bit of statistics.

Good back up there LF WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 14 3157886161

And a good part of Fed's mileage hides in his runs to the net
Who's the aggressive player here?

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Post by legendkillar on Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:50 pm

Very interesting that when Federer was having a practice earlier in the day, Petchers felt Federer looked "a bit sore" which does add to the perception that Federer was feeling the effects physically.

For me Federer looked physically spent. It has been a long intense year for him getting back to number 1. Winning Wimbledon and 3 Masters titles. The guy has played 83 matches this year which is the most in a year he has played since 2006! At 31 that is quite remarkable.

Kudos to Djokovic. Doing what he does best and that is outlasting the opponent.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:58 pm

legendkillar wrote:For me Federer looked physically spent. It has been a long intense year for him getting back to number 1. Winning Wimbledon and 3 Masters titles. The guy has played 83 matches this year which is the most in a year he has played since 2006! At 31 that is quite remarkable.


Yes but more importantly, it's teh 3 last macthes in a row without day rest: Delpo, Murray and Djoko is what really killed him. Add Ferrer and his long rallies, 4 matches in 5 days and then you see a Federer very "mentally" fatigued. Winking

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Post by Veejay on Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:17 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Fed admirers have nothing to worry about, the full package is still there, will still be the man to beat in SW19 next summer.
Totally agree,Im not at all upset,in fact I am surprised and he even made the final...thats 8 finals at the WTF now-incredible
He played some incredible tennis last night and showed he is still a force to be reckoned with
He has had a brilliant season,won the biggest title of them all and was no1 for a record 302 weeks...cant complain cause he came in second last night!!

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Post by legendkillar on Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:19 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:For me Federer looked physically spent. It has been a long intense year for him getting back to number 1. Winning Wimbledon and 3 Masters titles. The guy has played 83 matches this year which is the most in a year he has played since 2006! At 31 that is quite remarkable.


Yes but more importantly, it's teh 3 last macthes in a row without day rest: Delpo, Murray and Djoko is what really killed him. Add Ferrer and his long rallies, 4 matches in 5 days and then you see a Federer very "mentally" fatigued. WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 14 1071211947

Though I think the Del Potro match took more out of him. Just like the Olympics.

When you run the names off Tipsarevic, Ferrer, Del Potro, Murray, Djokovic. Quite the rallying and ball bashing fest Winking

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Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:28 pm

Veejay wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Fed admirers have nothing to worry about, the full package is still there, will still be the man to beat in SW19 next summer.
Totally agree,Im not at all upset,in fact I am surprised and he even made the final...thats 8 finals at the WTF now-incredible
He played some incredible tennis last night and showed he is still a force to be reckoned with
He has had a brilliant season,won the biggest title of them all and was no1 for a record 302 weeks...cant complain cause he came in second last night!!

I said a few months ago that I do not mind what Federer wins or loses from now on. However I certainly can see he is still good enough to beat the top players. I am not annoyed by him losing but annoyed (and only very relatively) at teh way this loss came. On one side we have someone concentrating on bringing the ball back and moving his opponent around helped by technology and amazing fitness, on the other an older player with great shots but too many matches in his legs having no choice but to go for broke as the match extends. Not something nice to watch.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:35 pm

laverfan wrote:https://imgur.com/chXH9

https://imgur.com/TXQU9

Interesting bit of statistics.

That says that Djoko runs 17% more per match...and as GP pointed, quite a bit of Federer moving is forward. It's a lot but it's only one side of the story. Because most of Djoko's opponent also try to shorten rallies. The real mileage is actually done when Djko, Nadal and Murray meet. As we saw the other day the running per match doubles then!!!! Something no other altheles could actually do....bar Ferrer maybe.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:17 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:For me Federer looked physically spent. It has been a long intense year for him getting back to number 1. Winning Wimbledon and 3 Masters titles. The guy has played 83 matches this year which is the most in a year he has played since 2006! At 31 that is quite remarkable.


Yes but more importantly, it's teh 3 last macthes in a row without day rest: Delpo, Murray and Djoko is what really killed him. Add Ferrer and his long rallies, 4 matches in 5 days and then you see a Federer very "mentally" fatigued. WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 14 1071211947

C'mon , he had no problem playing 4 matches in a row in Indian Wells and Cincy AND bagel Djokovic en route....you can't be selective and shrink a 17 GS champion to tiring after 3 games in a match.

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Post by luvsports! on Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:15 pm

maybe because it was at the end of the season?

tenez?

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Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:24 pm

The thing is everybody saw he was sluggish and commentators who typically do not want to find excuses all said so too.

I don't think there is much point digging down on this.

When he won IW he lost miserably v Roddick the following week despite having days of rest and took nearly 6 weeks of rest. Unlike Nadal, Djoko and Murray, Federer has never been very good at lining up long matches. Certainly not since this new style of grinding tennis dominated the game. Fed even had trouble with Hewitt on faster conds when he was younger.

I look forward to a few changes hopefully next year. This is suffocating tennis and I have had enough of it. Glad we have a long break of it actually. JJ brought a bit of fresh air in Paris even if his style is a bit "rough".

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:45 pm

Both players were sluggish, Tenez, Nole looked punch-drunk.
The way I'd describe Federer last night was that he was not his usual waspish self.
I saw Nole after the match, from very close, and he looked happy but really really thin and in need of a holiday.
As for the commentators, most of them actually look at a TV screen when they commentate. BBC box is quite high up and they also watch the match on the screen.
Your comments are usually a lot more insightful than theirs.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:04 pm

Tenez wrote:

They need to do something about it....unless the next generation of JJ and Rao can blast their way past those retrievers....but it might never look as nice to watch.

that's my main grief with tall big serving players. I just can't enjoy watching the game with massive people lumbering around. For me the real beauty is watching well-proportioned athletes and their movement and coordination when playing.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:49 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Both players were sluggish, Tenez, Nole looked punch-drunk.

No only mentally! Winking Imagine if he had to play tonight? which is what Fed had to do.



Your comments are usually a lot more insightful than theirs.
THank you! Winking BUt I have had very little to disagree with Tim Henman.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:51 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:

They need to do something about it....unless the next generation of JJ and Rao can blast their way past those retrievers....but it might never look as nice to watch.

that's my main grief with tall big serving players. I just can't enjoy watching the game with massive people lumbering around. For me the real beauty is watching well-proportioned athletes and their movement and coordination when playing.

Yes but the mouvement doesn't have to be over the distance. One can move well for 2 or 4 shot rallies....not 20, don;t you think.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:00 pm

Tenez wrote:

Yes but the mouvement doesn't have to be over the distance. One can move well for 2 or 4 shot rallies....not 20, don;t you think.

Well, that's how he used to play in 2007. Still, he is a baseliner at heart .He, too wants to move his game into the court, but the courts are slow for him, as well.
I have seen him play like that a few times and it was fantastic to watch. Even this week in O2 he moved in to the net and it was just very nice to see, the way he moved in particular.
I really have no fears for Nole on faster courts at all.

Spanish players would suffer most.

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Post by paulcz on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:42 pm

Something from my final observation. First of all thanks to both for such a final, great performanceWORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 14 3157886161

Nole, absolutely deserved winner, played with great focus and confidence. He showed a heart of real fighter again and also a good game participation. He was hungry, but with his cool head and determination as always. Although not so aggressive as he was last year, but having played according to a simple plan „ just start playing into Fed´s backhand“ and he did it unlike Cincinnati. Nole improved a service consistency, played with a sheer backhand control and good to see that he played only couple good low chops and showed that net game is not his weakness at all. He showed himself as a complete player without a weakness, which was a significant factor in this final.

Fed started very well, very aggressive, but when Nole got him into rallies his SHBH revealed his weakness and Nole got his confidence. That was a crucial point in that final. Nole knew how to play but Fed did not. That made a difference in their match. The crucial points which were longer rallies had the same pattern and Fed lost there. When he missed two set points in the second set, his game was totally broken. Fed could be happy that they did not play the BO5.




Congratulations to Nole WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 14 83870220and great honour to FedWORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 14 2084913611, who showed that he can still think about great wins. Not sure if he can resist such a physical game at BO5 as Nole and Murray play at the present, but till he plays then it is a great pleasure to watch him and with focus on GS next year, he still has a chance when draw will be on his side.




One perception from the final, Nole really served well in that final and faster than Fed, although Nole´s racket is much lighter. His lighter racket gives him a great control in the rallies especially with a great BH feeling. He can play great crosses, but can not hit so hard as Fed, who plays with one of the heaviest racket on the circuit. If they exchanged their rackets, then they would shorten their rallies to large extent WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 14 1071211947

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Post by Veejay on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:04 pm


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