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WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London

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WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 5 Empty Re: WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:47 pm

The wretched WI-FI!
Nearly home on the train , just woke up after a much needed power mini kip !
All that cheering took a lot out of me WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 5 650269930

Had a most brilliant time in every way.
So glad I went.

More later WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 5 650269930!

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Post by Veejay on Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:33 pm


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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:37 pm

Well, back home and hydrated (throbbing headache, but a happy one, though), I am surpised to say that I actually enjoyed the match.

The two look very different from the TV scenario: I didn't hear much groaning and grunting at all, and that was good.

First set was very, very good, Murray was not missing anything and was difficult to play.
My relentless cheering spirit was not quenched by the first set loss.
On the contrary, off for the second glass of white I went and got from Beck's, and the rest is history!

I even saw myself on TV WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 5 364988687 !

The pro Murray crowd was the usual British self, stiff-upper lip, not much help to poor Andy!

At one stage one woman mustered a limp :don't let us down Andy WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 5 2786941968
I felt sorry for the guy....with such a crowd no wonder he berates himself like he does...
That's why Nole was on fire and kept pressing Murray as per my advice: "Don't let him breath Nole!" and "Press him now!"...and a few other very special ones which I'll keep for myself WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 5 1071211947

All in all, Murray showed his limits tonight again, no all-court game and basically just pure baseline dictating at best, pushing Nole behind the baseline. Those were rare moments and took a lot out of him. Nole clearly a better player by quite a margin still.

Their similarity is actually very deceptive.

I met a lot of fans, spoke even to Murray's old coach, Maclagan , had to pull his leg and tell him that Nole is the best in the end, to which he dropped his head and winked wryly.

So, I'll be going to O2 on Monday for the final where I hope to carry Nole to his final win WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 5 2474380249

I stayed to the very end to see Fed receive his two trophies: Most popular Fans Award as well as Stefan Edberg Award, the crowd gave him a massive standing ovation, and it was lovely to see.
I added my personal message: Keep going Roger! which I believe he did hear WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 5 83870220

All in all a fabulous day I won't forget WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 5 151447854

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:11 pm

Just like against Nole on Monday, Tsonga showing lack of confidence.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:13 pm

Tenez wrote:Yes but be fun but you are missing on teh interesting comments from Henman.

what was he saying? I know Tim is a Nole man WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 5 4006036031

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:17 pm

Where did Tsonga from AO 2008 disappear? Where's that piercing attacking game.....

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:37 pm

Tsonga takes the match to the 3rd set in his trade-mark erratic style.

Whose weakness will prevail: Tsonga's being erratic or Berd being mentally fragile and losing focus?

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:11 pm

Good summary NITB. Not sure about the "nole still clearly better than Murray." He is better but it's close, especially if Murray could sustain the form of the first set.

I was just watching Tsonga play and it;s such a shame his shots have not structure. His footwork is all over the place when hitting a shot so he is never hitting the same shot and this is why he produces so many UEs.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:26 pm

Tenez wrote:Good summary NITB. Not sure about the "nole still clearly better than Murray." He is better but it's close, especially if Murray could sustain the form of the first set.

problem is, he can't. He can against Federer, but not Novak. Novak is just too good and relentless in his game, I have the impression he grinds Murray mentally down.
If Murray can't see Novak's giving up, then he starts giving up. He is always watching Novak's face like a hawk.
Nole stopped doing it a while ago, and Murray now knows that he really has to play like a nutcase the whole match in order to win.
He may win now and then in future, but those wins will be exception, rather than the rule.
Murray cannot sustain attacking game for the entire match, it's just not him and he physically can't pull it off, his shots, esp forehand sap too much energy out of him, which showed first with his serving, and that's when Nole sensed it and pounced on him like a cat.

Murray will not give up till the end, but his fight will be getting weaker and weaker as he'll have less energy to go for his forehand, like he does in the first set and when he plays tie-breakers.

Against Fed, it's easier for Murray as he just goes for his backhand, but I think that focused Fed will clean the floor with Murray in the O2.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:33 pm

Tenez wrote:

I was just watching Tsonga play and it;s such a shame his shots have not structure. His footwork is all over the place when hitting a shot so he is never hitting the same shot and this is why he produces so many UEs.

Tsonga's all over the place at the moment. The only decent thing in his game left is that forehand, everything else is just disorganised chaos. No wonder he looks lost in space most of the time.
On Monday he looked totally crushed and with no confidence at all, it was sad to see. I don't know what happened to him since his break-through in 2008 AO, but he's getting worse rather than better, he is not a rallying man and I don't know why he wants to be one.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:35 pm

noleisthebest wrote:problem is, he can't. He can against Federer, but not Novak. Novak is just too good and relentless in his game, I have the impression he grinds Murray mentally down.
Certainly physically.

Murray cannot sustain attacking game for the entire match, it's just not him and he physically can't pull it off, his shots, esp forehand sap too much energy out of him, which showed first with his serving, and that's when Nole sensed it and pounced on him like a cat.
Yes I agree with that.
Murray will not give up till the end, but his fight will be getting weaker and weaker as he'll have less energy to go for his forehand, like he does in the first set and when he plays tie-breakers.

THat why I was saying Nole beats Murray in the same way he beats Nadal...and even Federer. Squeezing the life and edge out of them.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:49 pm

Tenez wrote:
THat why I was saying Nole beats Murray in the same way he beats Nadal...and even Federer. Squeezing the life and edge out of them.

I can understand he does it in a 5 setter, not 3. Murray's edge is self-destructive. Majority of the points he won all took a lot of shots and they were all energy consuming ones from the baseline (except a few at the net, but that was more a fluke than a pattern).
He loves to build a point and that's the end of him as he wastes his own edge away, not so much the opponent.

He plays like that almost against all players, not just against Noel who is good defensively. That's just Murray.

Against Fed, depending what form he's in, Novak tries to win the first set with attacking game usually. He does give himself a breather after that, but that's becasue it's so hard playing Fed at his own A pace, when he is in full form.

I haven't seen him against Tipsarevic, but it seems like he's played really well, so the Monday final against Nole is definitely on the cards, would be fascinating as I'd say both of them are in similar form right now, and also similarly tired from the season

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Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:08 pm

No. It happens in bo3 as well. You don;t even need a set to get the edge out of a player. A few long rallies...that's all that is needed.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:17 pm

Tenez wrote:No. It happens in bo3 as well. You don;t even need a set to get the edge out of a player. A few long rallies...that's all that is needed.

can you think of any recent examples?

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:39 am

Tenez wrote:Yes I read that. Pretty good description. I wonder whether they'll really try to apply the 25s rule next year.This should change the dynamics of the game between those 2.
I can't wait for it!

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:43 am

Today, it was pretty clear though Murray was not gasping for air, his legs did not carry as fast in set 2 and 3. Nadal being simply dead at USO10 after 3 sets.

Bennetteau toying with Murray for a set and a half until a 53 shot rally killed him after which he did not win a game.

Federer in almost all his matches versus Nadal. Starting consistently strong and sharply with that sharpness disappearing end of first set.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:51 am

Djokovic- Murray:

Winner: UEs

Djokovic: 21:40
Murray: 23: 44

Their matches are always like this. I just enjoy Murray's game when he is abusing himself especially when he slaps himself on the forehead. He is quite an entertainer.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:30 am

Tenez wrote:Today, it was pretty clear though Murray was not gasping for air, his legs did not carry as fast in set 2 and 3. Nadal being simply dead at USO10 after 3 sets.

Bennetteau toying with Murray for a set and a half until a 53 shot rally killed him after which he did not win a game.

Federer in almost all his matches versus Nadal. Starting consistently strong and sharply with that sharpness disappearing end of first set.

I can understand that attacking players get their edge blunted, but not Murray. He blunts himself out by hitting the ball with all his might while running, and that's when he's dictating and fresh, he wastes at least 3 shots per every rally by finding the right position to safely put the ball away.
He is quite big and heavy at the moment and it's natural that he tires out before Nole who is light and also hits the ball more economically AND tries to attack more than Murray.
I would love to see how JJ handles top players next year as his game has the attacking edge but a more resilient brand thanks to his huge serve.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:14 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
Winner: UEs

Djokovic: 21:40
Murray: 23: 44


That is an interesting stat as well as surprising. But I do not think it tells the whole story. The question is what do they call winners?

a) Is it a ball that passes the opponent untouched (and I know they count aces as winners)

b) simply unreturned (touched but not sent back)

There is clearly a thin line between UEs and possible winners as defined by b and though I agree that Djoko might not be trying for winners, he tries overall to "stretch" Murray more than the other way around. Well at least in the last 2 sets as the first set probably saw a more aggressive Murray.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:29 am

noleisthebest wrote:I can understand that attacking players get their edge blunted, but not Murray.

We should add that is true when considering Murray against everybody else....but not Murray v Djoko. Just watch Murray in the first set and watch him in the last 2. Same thing happened in SHanghai except that he lasted a bit longer. Nadal also gets his shots blunted by Djokovic. He is forcing teh issue more often when playing Djoko than he does against everybody else.

The difference between Nadal and Murray is that Murray is actually much more muscular than Nadal nowadays as he needs to move a bigger body, he tires quicker. It's no luck that he now takes more time than Djoko between points. If you have to move 5 kilos extra of bones and muscles at the same speed as a lighter player, it really consumes considerably more energy and Murray does a lot of retrieving even when he dictates cause he doesn;t want to leave give any point away...that is his strength but also his weakness as the match drags on.

In that respect Djoko is very athletic cause he is not huge, very flexible and can even afford to play without taping his ankles. This to me is crazy and it's clear that he can only do that cause his frame is relatively light. Federer, Nadal, Murray and probably all other players tape their ankles.

He blunts himself out by hitting the ball with all his might while running, and that's when he's dictating and fresh, he wastes at least 3 shots per every rally by finding the right position to safely put the ball away.
He is quite big and heavy at the moment and it's natural that he tires out before Nole who is light and also hits the ball more economically AND tries to attack more than Murray.
THis actually says teh same thing as I do roughly.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:29 pm

Tenez wrote:
That is an interesting stat as well as surprising. But I do not think it tells the whole story. The question is what do they call winners?

a) Is it a ball that passes the opponent untouched (and I know they count aces as winners)

b) simply unreturned (touched but not sent back)


This stats only include balls that are untouched during a rally (i.e. excluding aces). The ones that are touched but un-returned are forced errors. Service winners are also counted in the stats given during slams. Those are the service points won simply where the receiver is able to touch the ball but unable to return it into play. But stats given on the slam website count service winners as winners.[/quote]

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:02 pm

HOw do you know it's excluding aces? Not so long ago winners included aces.

In anycase I woudl consider winners and forced errors as the same and those guys are so fast on the court that pure winners will be essentially the result of a previous aggressive shot coming back and easy to put away. For instance a FH unbalancing Murray but not good enough to prevent Murray from lobbing the ball back with Djoko smashing it. The smash will be seen at the "winner" whereas for me it woudl be the FH stretching and forcing Murray into a relatively easy lob to put away. Of course in that case there is no difference but let's say Murray's lob goes long, woudl that be an UE or Forced error? This is key here cause I am pretty sure that in the last 2 set Djoko was more agressive while those starts do not show it.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:04 pm

Another very important stat which they only showed shortly is about the distance ran against each other and versus their opponent.

I'll try to retrieve it cause that says so much about the style of a player and who takes the initiative more often.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:02 pm

Look forward to seeing how Fed handles tireless Daveed on the huge TV in the gym!

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:29 pm

Ferrer could have easily been 3/0 up but he is 0/3 down! Typical of Ferrer versus the top seeds.

Federer's srving pretty under average.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:32 pm

Ferrer's parents seem like very nice parents. They don;t look pushy, desperate ones you typically have for most other players'.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:36 pm

Federer should be happy to lead 3/2 when it should be 5/0 Ferrer.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:41 pm

Tenez wrote:

Federer's srving pretty under average.

I wonder why that is so with him. Last time I watched him I really admired it, esp the variety. At the moment , his timing is a bit fragile.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:44 pm

At least the match is a bit more "interesting" Run

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:45 pm

Not sure why but I certainly suspect some rustiness.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:50 pm

Tenez wrote:Not sure why but I certainly suspect some rustiness.
In which case the Ferru baseline drill should help him tune in the shots just right.
I saw a little bit of Delpo the other day and he looked really average, so I expect Ferrer and Federer in the semis.
Nole will make sure he beats Berd on Friday Winking

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:53 pm

What amazes mecis that Fed apparently played sublime on Tuesday.
Haven't seen that match but I suspect there can't have been much rust on display there.
Must've been Tipsarevic rolling over complex of inferiority...

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:56 pm

Yes, he played pretty well on Tues...but he had a week of rest prior to that.

He certainly plays a bit better now than at the beginning of the match.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:59 pm

Yes.....looks like he shook some of the rust.

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Post by SayonaRa on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:02 pm

2 old dogs. One runs and runs and runs;

the other doesn't run as much; he thinks and calculates, constructing his points with plenty of new tricks;

not surprised who got the first set! WORLD TOUR FINALS 2012, London - Page 5 364988687

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:10 pm

Indeed. I cannot believe how much running Ferrer does.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:12 pm

I hate it when Fed misfires the backhand.
I became quite protective of it. Definitely my most favourite shot of all time.

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Post by SayonaRa on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:15 pm

Tenez wrote:Indeed. I cannot believe how much running Ferrer does.

Seeing is believing. But where oh where did he get all that stamina from? He just fought like hell and won 2 titles back to back from Valencia to Paris. And now in LOndon he's still fresh like a daisy with all that running and hitting! WOW!

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:17 pm

Federer mouvement is not tip again. I said that on Tuesday but it was not as visible due to Tips being unewell. Today it's pretty obvious. I said then it may be down to laziness. Coudl be tiredness which is roughly the same thing after a long season.

The BH he missed just a few points ago was typically bad mouvement.

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Post by SayonaRa on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:19 pm

Tenez wrote:Ferrer could have easily been 3/0 up but he is 0/3 down! Typical of Ferrer versus the top seeds.

Federer's srving pretty under average.

Well below average. Overall not in championship form. Won't do for Murray or Djoko, I'm afraid.

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:21 pm

SR wrote:Seeing is believing. But where oh where did he get all that stamina from? He just fought like hell and won 2 titles back to back from Valencia to Paris. And now in LOndon he's still fresh like a daisy with all that running and hitting! WOW!

Not sure. It could be suspect of course but I have always had less doubt about him than others...essentially cause he is smaller and designed to run more than the taller versions. But certainly impressive running.

Federer looks tired and tireder.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:22 pm

He can't afford any sluggishness on Sunday:
Maybe he just can't be bothered as he knows he doesn't need more than 85% against Ferrer.
I'm sure he'll turn it up at 4 all

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Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:32 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Maybe he just can't be bothered as he knows he doesn't need more than 85% against Ferrer.

That's possible as he certainly ventures a lot at the net often in bad approaches but gets away with it.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:35 pm

4all. I can't wait for Ferrer's next service game

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:37 pm

Ferrer must be enjoying Nadal's absence and beinf Spain's number one at the moment. Will be interesting how he handles hat pressure in DC final against the Czechs.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:39 pm

Fed playing his forehand down the middle... Strange
Definitely lazy . Instead of being 30 15 up he gves the game away to Ferrer.

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:46 pm

Why is there no wolf-whistling when Federer changes the shirt like there is when Nadal does it . One of the great mysteries of life....

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Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:56 pm

Job done in straights. Not that anybody expected anything else....

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Post by SayonaRa on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:04 pm

Tenez wrote:
SR wrote:Seeing is believing. But where oh where did he get all that stamina from? He just fought like hell and won 2 titles back to back from Valencia to Paris. And now in LOndon he's still fresh like a daisy with all that running and hitting! WOW!

Not sure. It could be suspect of course but I have always had less doubt about him than others...essentially cause he is smaller and designed to run more than the taller versions. But certainly impressive running.



Point well taken.

VJ pointed
out to me that Ferrer didn’t do anything remarkable for most of his early
career. Then all of a sudden at the tail end, he surges to top5! Some posters
believe his late rise is due to the current trend winning points from baseline
rallies rather that suits ferrer’s style. I dunno.


Given Fed’s lack of form, he definitely has the game to beat Fed today, just relying on his
consistency. But he made more errors today that all the matches he played in Paris. I think he just didn’t believe in
himself vs RF.

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Post by SayonaRa on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:06 pm

@ NITB: "I'm sure he'll turn it up at 4 all"

Spot on!

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