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The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

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The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by socal1976 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:11 pm

Are these champions magnified in their brilliance due to the conditions and physiques or do they principally win as a result of their shotmaking ability? In my opinion it is the latter, all of the players I listed Nadal, Djoko, and Murray are widely rated in different technical aspects of the game as the best or near the best in the business.

For example:

Djokovic: best returner, one of if not best two handed backhands. Also easily a top 10 forehand on the ATP tour as well

Murray: one of the best returners, one of the best and most varied backhands, probably a top 5 or 10 volleyer.

Nadal: One of the top 5 forehands, and one of the top 5 returners in the game.

Now I don't want to get bogged down in just Nadal, I know you guys get a little twitchey when he comes up. I know Tenez you don't agree on the rankings of Nadal's skill set however would you at the least agree that ranking Nadal's forehand in the top 5 would at least be what the media or critical consensus is?

Get ready for 3 and 4 digit thread kids, I just waived some red meat for the lion.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:38 pm

Ok so for your returning is shot making? I woudl kind of agree if they were standing on the baseline like Federer. BUt they stand quite far back when the pace has droped quite a bit and that gives them time to use their leg power to get to the ball as opposed to anticipation and eye/hand coordination when standing close to teh baseline.

So I disagree with you that returning is such a great shot. Especially as teh aim is to put the ball back on court and not necessarily hit a winner. Though they hit winning returns, it's not what really bring them most points as they actually have usually got those long rallies following the returns.

Regarding those best FH ranking, I don;t quite agree either. There is too much spin and one really assesses the shot making ability of a FH by his winner ratio. If Murray and Djoko need to hit 6 FH per rally to pull a point, it;s not great shot making. Look at Dolgo's FH..everyone of his hurt.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by socal1976 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:48 pm

Returning most certainly is shot making and shot making of the highest order you only value attacking and counterpunching shot making but that certainly is part of it. You could argue Nadal just stands back on the return, but I do not think you can make that statement for Murray and Djoko. Both players do step inside and take a great many especially second serve returns well inside the baseline and hit them for winners. This is no easy feat off the first ball. Both guys vary their location on return based on the circumstances and on giving the server different looks. When they do step inside the court they both are great at going for the flat return.

As for the forehand Tenez, I know the Nadal forehand is not your favorite but the man when he does flat it out, and I have seen him do it can and does hit frightening flat forehands. A player that can hit 110 on the Fh when he goes flat and at the same time hit several thousand RPMs. This shows a player who has many different forehands and complete mastery f the shot.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by socal1976 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:50 pm

So Tenez if Djoko's forehand is too spiney and not that great of a technical shot where would you rate it on tour. I think it is top 10 for sure and when he is on match point it becomes even better somehow.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by ... on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:04 pm

Socal,

the thread is a bit pointless.
I don't know why you chose Nadal Djokovic and Murray to talk about shot-making.
You could have written a general article about what makes shotmaking in your books and give examples among all players,
Murray and Novak have excellent backhands, despite the fact they are DBH.
It comes across as an aggressive/defensive kind of something you are trying to prove, not really a genuine tennis discussion.
Shot-making is a dying art as it's difficult to execute game like that consistently across all slowed down conditions.
The game is bland and very limited to what base-line can offer, and it's not a lot when you compare it to 25 years ago when even women's tennis was really attractive to watch.
Players have discovered a safe formula called low percentage tennis, helped hugely by improved fitness, add a bit of good hand to eye coordination, and bob's your uncle.
This whole crop of players we have today would have been better to watch and able to show the shot-making abilities playing all-court tennis and sparing their bodies all the gruelling regimes they endure in the gym.
I think Novak and Murray are wasted like this., and their matches are blunt as they can't hurt each other...it's painful!

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Veejay on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:07 pm

Good comment NITB Applause

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by socal1976 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:12 pm

Nitb, why is it that whatever I choose to talk about is pointless, it is my suggestion of a topic. If people don't want to engage they don't have to. If you would have written it in a different manner or different style well that is fine that is your decision and when you write choose whatever you like to highlight.

Shot making is most certainly not a dying art by any stretch of the imagination. Where was the Nitb who used to post highlights of Novak's great shots and marvel at his shotmaking? Is Novak a talented shotmaker when compared with passed greats? I'd be interested to know at this point if you believe he is?

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by socal1976 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:13 pm

Veejay wrote:Good comment NITB

Great Post Smearjay, this is by far the most cogent, concise, and understandable post you have ever written. Now lets try to build from three words into whole paragraphs where each line is related in someway to the previous line.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by ... on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:24 pm

socal1976 wrote:Nitb, why is it that whatever I choose to talk about is pointless, it is my suggestion of a topic. If people don't want to engage they don't have to. If you would have written it in a different manner or different style well that is fine that is your decision and when you write choose whatever you like to highlight.

Shot making is most certainly not a dying art by any stretch of the imagination. Where was the Nitb who used to post highlights of Novak's great shots and marvel at his shotmaking? Is Novak a talented shotmaker when compared with passed greats? I'd be interested to know at this point if you believe he is?

All your questions have been answered in my first post.
I never liked v2 exactly for the Whose Dad is the Strongest mentality (yes, that thread was deleted at the time)
I have been Novak's fan and enjoyed his career a lot longer than most and don't need to prove myself to anyone.
You seemed to have joined the bandwagon (just like this forum) when times were good, so you are a fair-kind of weather guy.
This particular forum is more centred on covering tennis in general rather than the partisan support as it is a small forum.

All of us have a unique way of looking at things and contribute best we can in a friendly spirit and enjoy each other's company.

If you are really that keen on my writing about Novak, please go through the ones I have done here. I wrote a very good poem about him as well.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Veejay on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:34 pm

socal1976 wrote:
Veejay wrote:Good comment NITB

Great Post Smearjay, this is by far the most cogent, concise, and understandable post you have ever written. Now lets try to build from three words into whole paragraphs where each line is related in someway to the previous line.

Laugh
It comes as no surprise that someone so cocky would only have Viagra on the brian...sorry Socal I am still rolling on the floor about that...
I guess a mouth as big as yours does need to try and compensate for your obvious shortcomings Laugh

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by laverfan on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:51 pm

SoCal... why not include Federer, Nalbandian, Tsonga, Gonzo in your discussion?

Federer and Tsonga are current players, even if Nalbandian and Gonzo are not.

Del Potro's FH is not too shabby, as is Stan's or Gasquet's BH.

If the focus is on the current Top 4, Federer should be in this list, correct?

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by socal1976 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:55 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Nitb, why is it that whatever I choose to talk about is pointless, it is my suggestion of a topic. If people don't want to engage they don't have to. If you would have written it in a different manner or different style well that is fine that is your decision and when you write choose whatever you like to highlight.

Shot making is most certainly not a dying art by any stretch of the imagination. Where was the Nitb who used to post highlights of Novak's great shots and marvel at his shotmaking? Is Novak a talented shotmaker when compared with passed greats? I'd be interested to know at this point if you believe he is?

All your questions have been answered in my first post.
I never liked v2 exactly for the Whose Dad is the Strongest mentality (yes, that thread was deleted at the time)
I have been Novak's fan and enjoyed his career a lot longer than most and don't need to prove myself to anyone.
You seemed to have joined the bandwagon (just like this forum) when times were good, so you are a fair-kind of weather guy.
This particular forum is more centred on covering tennis in general rather than the partisan support as it is a small forum.

All of us have a unique way of looking at things and contribute best we can in a friendly spirit and enjoy each other's company.

If you are really that keen on my writing about Novak, please go through the ones I have done here. I wrote a very good poem about him as well.



So what i heard about you questioning my credentials as a Novak fan was true. Well its sad because we never had any issues with each other till you came here on OTF. Then out of the blue people start telling me that Nitb says you aren't a real djokovic fan etc. That is fine I was not questioning your credentials as a fan but apparently you are questioning mine. And I won't go down that childish path with you.

However, I do have one more question for you since you have made your views clear? What changed between are us as posters from the time you left 606v2. I don't remeber a single cross word being exchanged between the two of us. And let the record show you are the first one to throw shots and call me a fair weather fan. You started it Nitb when I did nothing to you and we got along for very well on V2. Either way, it is no bother to me why you have changed and become so aggressive and anti-tennis, maybe its the people you hang out with on this forum. Frankly, I don't care, but what is clear is that you don't know what you are talking about on host of issues and you choose to pick fights and name call with me. That is fine, I am equally adept at name calling and so I guess we know where we both stand.

It is funny I could tell how much animosity you held when you accused me FALSELY AND WRONGLY OF ATTACKING PAUL, or when accused me of having a role in getting you kicked off of V2. Clearly, you are deluding yourself if you believe I had a role in the ejection of anyone.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by socal1976 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:57 pm

Veejay wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
Veejay wrote:Good comment NITB

Great Post Smearjay, this is by far the most cogent, concise, and understandable post you have ever written. Now lets try to build from three words into whole paragraphs where each line is related in someway to the previous line.


It comes as no surprise that someone so cocky would only have Viagra on the brian...sorry Socal I am still rolling on the floor about that...
I guess a mouth as big as yours does need to try and compensate for your obvious shortcomings

How are the raisenettes doing Veej, have you injected any of your veiny buddies lately?

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by ... on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:20 pm

socal1976 wrote:


So what i heard about you questioning my credentials as a Novak fan was true. Well its sad because we never had any issues with each other till you came here on OTF. Then out of the blue people start telling me that Nitb says you aren't a real djokovic fan etc. That is fine I was not questioning your credentials as a fan but apparently you are questioning mine. And I won't go down that childish path with you.

However, I do have one more question for you since you have made your views clear? What changed between are us as posters from the time you left 606v2. I don't remeber a single cross word being exchanged between the two of us. And let the record show you are the first one to throw shots and call me a fair weather fan. You started it Nitb when I did nothing to you and we got along for very well on V2. Either way, it is no bother to me why you have changed and become so aggressive and anti-tennis, maybe its the people you hang out with on this forum. Frankly, I don't care, but what is clear is that you don't know what you are talking about on host of issues and you choose to pick fights and name call with me. That is fine, I am equally adept at name calling and so I guess we know where we both stand.

It is funny I could tell how much animosity you held when you accused me FALSELY AND WRONGLY OF ATTACKING PAUL, or when accused me of having a role in getting you kicked off of V2. Clearly, you are deluding yourself if you believe I had a role in the ejection of anyone.

So the experiment worked....

Don't be so vain thin-skinned Socal, enjoy tennis and Nole's career, as well as Nadal's when he returns.

As for attacking etc....you have somehow found yourself named and shamed. I mentioned no names.
As you already know well by now, I have no problem telling you what I think, so no need to read between the lines when it comes to me.

Try and have a good time here, by the manner you introduced yourself here, seems as if you expected us to bite your head off.

I would like to believe the reason you came here is to chat to Tenez, so you'll have a great time with him as he is a good listener and a patient debater.

Just try and relax and don't get involved in silly arguments about who said what. You should have worked out who's who by now.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by socal1976 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:30 pm

Yes I do enjoy talking to Tenez, I missed the guy I told him as much Nitb so I don't know why you would think I came to fight. But lets just say I was not warmly received, which is fine. I am actually not thin skinned, but it seems like i post reasonable threads that people might enjoy commenting on, and wondering why it seems you think everything I post is not worth conversation. Anyway now I am just a bit confused on the whole experimenting assertion, what are you experimenting?

Either way I am not out to start fights, and I am happy to talk about the issues, but you can't say that I am the one who came here just to provoke fights there have been quite a few pointed things thrown at me as well. I am not innocent but no one else is either.


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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by ... on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:31 pm

As I said Socal, just relax and enjoy yourself!

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:32 pm

socal1976 wrote:So Tenez if Djoko's forehand is too spiney and not that great of a technical shot where would you rate it on tour. I think it is top 10 for sure and when he is on match point it becomes even better somehow.

Look at the wrist work in Djoko's FH. That however allows him to find good angles and make his opponent run a fair share. Top 10? Maybe but not a certainty. If you look at his matches, he wins essentially thanks to his amazing retrieving and being able to turn defense into attack....thanks to the fact of being in the trameline. Dolgo, Monaco, Tsonga, Federer, Rao and I am sure a few others have a better FH.

You would not consider Ferrer being a great shot maker yet he is number 5 and has often very close matches with Djoko and Nadal.

The return is a very physical shot if you stand 2m or more behind the baseline but the pace drops quite a bit by then and the aim is to put the ball back not a winner so it's not quite as technical as a sharp FH or SHBH down the line.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by socal1976 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:43 pm

Tenez wrote:
socal1976 wrote:So Tenez if Djoko's forehand is too spiney and not that great of a technical shot where would you rate it on tour. I think it is top 10 for sure and when he is on match point it becomes even better somehow.

Look at the wrist work in Djoko's FH. That however allows him to find good angles and make his opponent run a fair share. Top 10? Maybe but not a certainty. If you look at his matches, he wins essentially thanks to his amazing retrieving and being able to turn defense into attack....thanks to the fact of being in the trameline. Dolgo, Monaco, Tsonga, Federer, Rao and I am sure a few others have a better FH.

You would not consider Ferrer being a great shot maker yet he is number 5 and has often very close matches with Djoko and Nadal.

The return is a very physical shot if you stand 2m or more behind the baseline but the pace drops quite a bit by then and the aim is to put the ball back not a winner so it's not quite as technical as a sharp FH or SHBH down the line.

See I don't get this last two lines. That is where I think you critique of the lack of shot making is a bit subjective and stops being objecive. You value 1st serve, flat forehand and the volley more, so you say that players who are strong in those areas have shotmaking ability. But the other shots all require their own timing and technique as well.

Also I disagree big time on Monaco, or Dolgo having as big a forehand as Djokovic. In terms of RAonic no way unless you ignore the return, passing shot, cross court FH and down the line FH. Raonic basically has a better inside out forehand than Djoko and I would rate Novak's forehand in the other forehand departments to be equal or better. Even Berdych, he has a monster forehand till he has to pull it up the line, Tsonga the same thing, no way are either as good as Djoko at going up the line with that shot or returning and passing. These are all aspects of forehand play are they not?

Additionally, I don't see how Ferrer's ranking has anything to do with the shotmaking of the three players I mention. In the late 80s Gilbert reached #4 in the world. There is always a guy on tour who doesn't have great power but is fast and a helluva fighter, people like chang and ferrer. But ferrer playing these guys close but always losing the big matches doesn't reflect poorly on anyone, the guy is a fighter and has become a better player.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by wilson_nxt on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:02 am

.


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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:03 am

socal1976 wrote:
See I don't get this last two lines. That is where I think you critique of the lack of shot making is a bit subjective and stops being objecive. You value 1st serve, flat forehand and the volley more, so you say that players who are strong in those areas have shotmaking ability. But the other shots all require their own timing and technique as well.

I value the return too but not all return. Shotmaking for me means taking a risk to unbalance the opponent by producing a risky technical shot. For instance a SHBH down the line rushing the net for a sharp risky volley for instance. Agassi for instance was standing close the baseline to return. It was risky. Nadal on the other extreme stands far back and has time to project himself every time in the right direction and just requires string legs to get to teh ball. It's a very physical return cause of the extra quick mouvement he has to make and to inject the additional pace on a slowing ball. All done with high clearence of the net and way enough sping to keep the ball in court. That is not shot making but is returning nowadays.

Djoko returns really well. I agree there but he stands between Nadal and Federer and again is helped considerably by his mouvement. How many winning returns does he make? not that many and certainly not what wins him the matches.


Also I disagree big time on Monaco, or Dolgo having as big a forehand as Djokovic. In terms of RAonic no way unless you ignore the return, passing shot, cross court FH and down the line FH. Raonic basically has a better inside out forehand than Djoko and I would rate Novak's forehand in the other forehand departments to be equal or better. Even Berdych, he has a monster forehand till he has to pull it up the line, Tsonga the same thing, no way are either as good as Djoko at going up the line with that shot or returning and passing. These are all aspects of forehand play are they not?
JUst watch a match v Djoko and Dolgo for instance. WHy not teh USO11?

It's just plain obvious.

Additionally, I don't see how Ferrer's ranking has anything to do with the shotmaking of the three players I mention. In the late 80s Gilbert reached #4 in the world. There is always a guy on tour who doesn't have great power but is fast and a helluva fighter, people like chang and ferrer. But ferrer playing these guys close but always losing the big matches doesn't reflect poorly on anyone, the guy is a fighter and has become a better player.

What I don;t understand is that LK and NITB for instance who are great fans of Murray and Djoko respectively won't be arguing about the quality of matches between Djoko and Murray. Despite being fans they are lucid enough to recognise that shotmaking is actually quite average. I feel you really want to up those guys and like you have done many years have always denied the physical exploit that is to engage in those long rallies and it is impossible, even for Federer to pull great shots if a match contains too many long rallies. Yes the balls they bring back on court are amazing but that is not shot making, it's athletism.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by ... on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:07 am

Tenez wrote:
Djoko returns really well. How many winning returns does he make? not that many and certainly not what wins him the matches.

I can definitely remember one really well.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:15 am

wilson_nxt wrote:Djokovic uses less wrist than Federer or Nadal. His FH is actually an old fashioned shot but what makes it spinny is the extreme Western grip he uses. Infact its more Western than Federer or Nadal.

That is not true. Federer has not got a western grip to start with. It has got an eastern one. Nadal and Djoko have indeed a western grip.

And if you look at Djoko's FH on video, you will see it particularly spinny. He uses the wrist a lot.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:16 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Djoko returns really well. How many winning returns does he make? not that many and certainly not what wins him the matches.

I can definitely remember one really well.

You mean the lucky one!

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Larry Ellison on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:17 am

No it was gutsy!
And it paid off!

Djoko has done it so many times, it can't be luck.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by ... on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:19 am

I actually tried playing with Federer's racquet on Sunday, my tennis fanatic friend's one, of course. That thing is SO HEAVY!!!!!!

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:20 am

Amritia3ee wrote:No it was gutsy!
And it paid off!

Djoko has done it so many times, it can't be luck.

Think about it. If it was not luck it woudl not have to pull it up at MP down!

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by wilson_nxt on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:21 am

.


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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:22 am

noleisthebest wrote:I actually tried playing with Federer's racquet on Sunday, my tennis fanatic friend's one, of course. That thing is SO HEAVY!!!!!!

It's a blade ...or a batt. How he plays with that is a mistery. He should play with Stan's Yonex, he'd be unbeatable. I am serious.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Larry Ellison on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:24 am

Yes Wilson, that's very similar to what Lydian says.
You are clearly very knowledgeable in tennis Wilson smiley

You should join us at http://www.606v2.com/f34-tennis it will be a pleasure to have you on there as well Winking

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Larry Ellison on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:25 am

Tenez wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:No it was gutsy!
And it paid off!

Djoko has done it so many times, it can't be luck.

Think about it. If it was not luck it woudl not have to pull it up at MP down!
How does that make it luck?

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:28 am

wilson_nxt wrote:Fed=SW
Nad=SW/W
Djo=W
They all use wrist but Djokovic pronates less on take back than Fed/Nad.
Hence far lower RPM seen from Djoko than the other 2.

RPM is a different thing. Djoko has a very circular wrist action but as it takes relatively early he doesn't inject the same spin. It's there on all his shots checkable on every youtube clip so I am not sure why this needs to be discussed. The difference is that Federer gets through the ball much more and this why his FH is more pacy. The grip is not semi western, it's pretty continental or eastern.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:30 am

Amritia3ee wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:No it was gutsy!
And it paid off!

Djoko has done it so many times, it can't be luck.

Think about it. If it was not luck it woudl not have to pull it up at MP down!
How does that make it luck?

Cause he himself says it. He goes for a shot when he has nothing else to lose. If he coudl do that 3 out of 5 times, he woudl have won that match in 3 straight sets.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by ... on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:39 am

Actually, that particular shot is what Nole's first coach was teaching him from a very young age.
She said it herself in a documentary they made after he won Wimbledon (and USO) and went to see her, it was cute how she tried to grab a piece of reflected glory.
Like any shot that paints the line, there's a bit of luck involved.
I don't think it was luck, more a dare-devil nature he has.
That's why he is different from Federer who would never do it and couldn't understand it.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by wilson_nxt on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:48 am

.


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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:45 am

I woudl still not call it a semi western as the top of his hand is over the grip when hitting the ball. Anyway his FH has also changed since 07 as he certainly puts more spin now than he used to. However check this and see...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y84dUk4VEzI

...and tell me who has the flatter and therefore pacier FH.

And no need to check the other site from Amri....Feel ay home here. Winking

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by ... on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:48 am

Tenez wrote:

...and tell me who has the flatter and therefore pacier FH.


you are so funny sometimes!

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:54 am

Always funny NITB...this is just a game.

BTW WIlson now that I understand what what is semi Western i agree Fed's FH is in between Estern and SW and that is very different than a western grip this is why I disagreed with you putting Federer and Nadal's grip in the same (western) basket.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by ... on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:59 am

Tenez wrote:Always funny NITB...this is just a game.


...with some brilliant shotmaking

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by socal1976 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:49 am

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Djoko returns really well. How many winning returns does he make? not that many and certainly not what wins him the matches.

I can definitely remember one really well.

You mean the lucky one!

No the historic one, his return ability to hit winners helped him turn that entire slam around Tenez yet you state that Djoko doesn't win matches with hitting return winners. That is on huge career defining win that was directly as result of hitting a winner on a return. I'll be it fed was just trying to get the 1st serve over and didn't quite get the serve wide enough but it was match point on fed's first serve, not his second.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by socal1976 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:59 am

wilson_nxt wrote:Fed=SW
Nad=SW/W
Djo=W
They all use wrist but Djokovic pronates less on take back than Fed/Nad.
Hence far lower RPM seen from Djoko than the other 2.



Exceptional post and I have to agree with wilson except fed is sort of in between semi and eastern. Fed is more western than Sampras, Djoko is the most western of the bunch he really brushes up and cups the ball. However Djoko does not have lower RPM numbers than fed at least not from what I remember seeing reported. But you are accurate in that his forehand is more as result of extreme grip and very early striking for that kind of a topspin swing. I really like Djoko's forehand I don't feel like it is lacking.

And Tenez it certainly isn't lacking in comparison to Dolgopolov, being flatter doesn't equate to being better. That is where your subjectivity comes in. I understand your criteria about playing balls that hurt your opponent I actually agree with that standard. But then I feel you don't apply that standard fairly to Novak and underate him while you over sell oher players simply because they play more in the manner that you prefer. Flatter is better some of the time, some of the time more spin is preffered, other times slice, other times extreme angle or pace. The supreme ball striker can do it all on any ball. You jut look at the gy who hits flatter and more aggressively and say he is the better ball striker divorced from actual real world results. That is what you do with your Dolgopolov comparison to Novak's forehand.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:51 am

socal1976 wrote:No the historic one, his return ability to hit winners helped him turn that entire slam around Tenez yet you state that Djoko doesn't win matches with hitting return winners. That is on huge career defining win that was directly as result of hitting a winner on a return. I'll be it fed was just trying to get the 1st serve over and didn't quite get the serve wide enough but it was match point on fed's first serve, not his second.

We have discussed that a 1000 times and clearly you want to make the most of that shot and ignore the fact that everytime before in the match there was pressure it was Federer who held his nerves and Djoko who crumbled even serving double faults on key points!!! and this is why he faced 2 MPs and played like someone who had nothing to lose....very different than playing like you have everything to lose. It's like saying Gasquet is strong and gutsy cause he turned a 1/4F v Roddick from 2 sets and a break down.

Djoko could not do it at Wimbldon nor at Cincy the following months so it proves that "return" was a nice piece fluke. He had chosen his side before Fed hit the serve. Even Djoko says it.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:57 am

socal1976 wrote:And Tenez it certainly isn't lacking in comparison to Dolgopolov, being flatter doesn't equate to being better.

It is cause it almost systematically puts Djokovic on teh back foot and if Djoko was not as mobile and flexible Djoko would not touch the ball. Problem is the conds favour someone who retrieve as opposed to someone who attacks. The last 12 or so slam finals just show that. Djoko doesn't hurt Dolgo with his FH but with his amazing retrievable skills and that is what every commentator says. It's an evidence. Djoko turns into an attacking player when facing Murray but even versus Nadal managed to beat him successfully 7 times in a row by keeping rallying with Nadal and he lost the last 3 times cause he was too agressive and unable to run as much. This is what tennis is about nowadays and honestly you must be the only one who doesn't see it this way nowadays.


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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by ... on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:58 am

Querrey hit exactly the same return winner against Novak yesterday. It wasn't on match point and it wasn't a slam semi-final, but it was a skilled shot nonetheless. Not as breathtaking and difficult as Fed's SBHDTL, but a good and pretty useful one to be able to execute esp in today's slow game, a great way to open up the court even if it does get returned.

The grandness of Novak's shot were the circumstances and the things that happened before and after it.

SO much so it has earnt itself its on name The Shot.

I love the fact it has taken a life of its own since because it's very inspirational to watch.

YOu can do what Novak did, make something out of nothing, or you can serve for the second set of a slam at 5:1 and stuff it up collossally like Cilic.



I"m sure Fed will remember it fondly for many years.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:04 am

noleisthebest wrote:Querrey hit exactly the same return winner against Novak yesterday. It wasn't on match point and it wasn't a slam semi-final, but it was a skilled shot nonetheless. Not as breathtaking and difficult as Fed's SBHDTL, but a good and pretty useful one to be able to execute esp in today's slow game, a great way to open up the court even if it does get returned..

Yes but it's like pulling a risky FH winner every now on then...bar that those kind of returns happen rarely. Remember what Federer said at Wimbledon....he served exactly at teh same spot on MP to see whether Djoko coudl do it again and that proves indeed that Federer will remember for a long time but not being an amazing shot but for having a big share of luck in it. Especially considering that Djoko doesn't typically take so much risk in his day to day tennis.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:08 am

And what's quite funny is that easier shots to pull in that last USO final v Murray but landed them out and cost him the 1st and 2nd set! ...and eventually teh match.

It reminds me the Nadal fans who get so excited cause Nadal pulls 4 great FH winners in his match and think this is why Nadal won the match but forget about the 57 UEs his opponent gave him cause they coudl not rally with him.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by legendkillar on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:11 am

I am with laverfan on this and the subject should be opened up to the whole field and not just a select few.

I used to think Murray, Djokovic and Nadal early in their careers were good shotmakers until rallies grew and grew in length and duration. Ten makes the good point about the player position on court. Those that stand behind the baseline are less likely to hit winners. Dolgopolov, Paire, Del Potro, Tsonga, Berdych, Gasquet, Federer, Wawrinka, Nalbandian, Davydenko all players that go for the shots despite the room for error they have. That's not to say that Nadal, Murray and Djokovic are not capable of playing some great shots, just not in the same frequency as some of the field.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:21 am

legendkillar wrote:That's not to say that Nadal, Murray and Djokovic are not capable of playing some great shots, just not in the same frequency as some of the field.

I would say more precisely, they are not interested in pulling great shots in the first place. That is not what will bring them securely the match at the end. In short we do not know how good or talented they are cause they don;t care about pulling those shots (unless I guess they have nothing to lose like at MP down). They don't bet their match on pulling great shots....it's far too risky. And nothing demonstrate it better than Djoko's last losses to Murray(USO) and Nadal (clay).

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by ... on Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:44 am

Tenez wrote:And what's quite funny is that easier shots to pull in that last USO final v Murray but landed them out and cost him the 1st and 2nd set! ...and eventually teh match.

Novak will have to play more aggressively against Murray in future, and I look forward to it.
I just don't know what Murray Nadal matches are going to look like.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by luvsports! on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:46 pm

Tenez wrote:
Look at the wrist work in Djoko's FH. That however allows him to find good angles and make his opponent run a fair share. Top 10? Maybe but not a certainty. If you look at his matches, he wins essentially thanks to his amazing retrieving and being able to turn defense into attack....thanks to the fact of being in the trameline. Dolgo, Monaco, Tsonga, Federer, Rao and I am sure a few others have a better FH.

COme on tenez surely you don't rate weaponless monaco, who i believe you said is a hitting partners dream and gets destroyed by fedal, as having a better forehand than novak??

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:33 pm

Monaco has not a huge FH, I completely agree but when playing versus Djoko he was the one trying to hurt Djoko with it...more than the other way around.

It was Monaco taking the risk on his FH. Watch this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbDWb4qLN84


Djoko wins convincingly but he hits 2 FH winners in the whole match and those winners are cross court so maximum security. What we see however is great retrieving skills and I cannot watch this clip conclude Djoko has a better FH than Monaco....and I agree Monaco's FH is not particularly strong.

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Re: The brilliant shotmaking of Andy/Novak/and Nadal

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