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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:07 pm

I would invite anyone to watch Djoko and Nadal at 19 or 20 and compare it with those 2 to check how tennis changed in the last 12 years!

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:28 pm

If we calculate the average speed per length I suspect it is at least 12% faster between Shapo and Rublev than it was between Nadal and Djoko at Shanghai 2007.

To start with the new generation stands closer to base line and is much more aggresive from the BH and more or less equal to Nadal on the FH.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:30 pm

Shapo serves also much better than Djoko and Nadal at the same age.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:16 am

Actually Shap's FH is much better than Nadal's at the same age. faster and more depth.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:23 am

Even though Rub served for the second set, Shapo deservedly wins in 2.

He simply moves better than Rublev. Andrei needs to beef up his legs.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:23 am

Good match though.

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Post by BEL19VE on Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:18 am

The tour has honestly become so shit. 
Forget clashes between Fedal in their prime, back in the day even in the quarters of Masters and Slams you'd get exciting matches like Tsonga vs Fed, Berdych vs Murray, Nadal vs Soderling etc.


Last edited by DEC1M7 on Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:21 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by BEL19VE on Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:20 am

Now Nadal is injury prone, Federer has clearly declined, Djokovic still has no fans, and the rest of the tour are just uninspiring. 
Honestly I can't think of a single match which anyone has really had any anticipation for in all of Indian Wells and Miami. And the rest of Miami matches will also be crap, unless Fed improves to the level he can compete against Djokovic, or Kyrgios starts red lining.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:05 am

Tenez wrote:I like both Rub and Shapo's games even though they are very different. Shapo however gets on my nerve with his mojo sitting next to his mum. I keep saying but frankly it is so ridiculous.

Rublev is sadly thick and Shapovalov has got Oedipus complex, that means that only Shapo has a slight chance of becoming a champion if (and that's a big if) he sorts himself out.

In the meantime, I am quite happy with Tsits who seems to be the real deal in every department.

Should be a great match between him and Shapo.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:49 am

DEC1M7 wrote:Now Nadal is injury prone, Federer has clearly declined, Djokovic still has no fans, and the rest of the tour are just uninspiring. 
Honestly I can't think of a single match which anyone has really had any anticipation for in all of Indian Wells and Miami. And the rest of Miami matches will also be crap, unless Fed improves to the level he can compete against Djokovic, or Kyrgios starts red lining.

I admit that there is a gap between now and Djoko and Nadal. But I don't think we were excited when Djoko and Murray were 20. Nor when Hewitt and Ferrero were dominating and Federer was finding his way.

To get things interesting, players have to make a name of themselves and that take time. The problem is that the Nishi generation has the talent but a lack of professionalism and clearly mental strength have made them uninteresting.

I think the main culprits are actually Djoko , Murray and Nadal themselves. Neither have a great game but an outstanding fitness which has contributed in asphyxiating the generation just behind them. Those 3 have only raised an interest cause they have face the geniest player ever. Djoko Nadal only got interesting score wise....not really watchable. And their matches v Murray is even worse.

I however think that the Shapo/Tsi/Rub/Kyrgios are much more exciting to watch. They are making a name of themselves but even yesterday Shapo v Rub was very interesting for me cause you had 2 very different styles and both very aggressive. It is really refreshing! Frankly much more than a Berdych Murray!!!!

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:57 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:I like both Rub and Shapo's games even though they are very different. Shapo however gets on my nerve with his mojo sitting next to his mum. I keep saying but frankly it is so ridiculous.

Rublev is sadly thick and Shapovalov has got Oedipus complex, that means that only Shapo has a slight chance of becoming a champion if (and that's a big if) he sorts himself out.

In the meantime, I am quite happy with Tsits who seems to be the real deal in every department.

Should be a great match between him and Shapo.
I don;t think Rublev is stupid....he has the rare ability to hit hard from both wings consistently enough to be in the top 30 (before his elbow injury) and therefore that may look a bit one D I agree but his attacks are not just about power. This kind of game a a la Lendl take time to develop. when he gets 24 he might be quite difficult to handle though I agree his game is likely to be always up and down....too depend on form of the day.

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Post by sphairistike on Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:59 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:The conds look pretty slow. Miami has not learnt its lesson.
I don't think so.

Krajinovic's shots are flying through the court.
He is making Fed run and look slow.
There were some comments on Tennis Channel about the court pace index (Hawkeye) for Miami and it seemed to be around 38, so higher than IW and higher than Wimbledon (33). Technically, at least it seems Miami is medium fast this year. Maybe the humidity in the air makes it feel slower than it is (while the hot air in IW desert made it feel faster)...

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Post by sphairistike on Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:02 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:I like both Rub and Shapo's games even though they are very different. Shapo however gets on my nerve with his mojo sitting next to his mum. I keep saying but frankly it is so ridiculous.

Rublev is sadly thick and Shapovalov has got Oedipus complex, that means that only Shapo has a slight chance of becoming a champion if (and that's a big if) he sorts himself out.

In the meantime, I am quite happy with Tsits who seems to be the real deal in every department.

Should be a great match between him and Shapo.
I still think Tsi is overrated, esp. by you nitb  Winking Shapo will beat him in straight sets. Their H2H is 1-1 in ATP, but the 1 Tsi won was on clay. 2018 AO Shapo beat him in straight sets and Shapo is younger!! Also, in the juniors, Shapo beat him both times they met FO and Wimbledon...

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:41 pm

sphairistike wrote:
I still think Tsi is overrated, esp. by you nitb  Winking Shapo will beat him in straight sets. Their H2H is 1-1 in ATP, but the 1 Tsi won was on clay. 2018 AO Shapo beat him in straight sets and Shapo is younger!! Also, in the juniors, Shapo beat him both times they met FO and Wimbledon...
You say that, but who of the youngsters comes to the net most?
Who of the youngsters has the greatest belief?
Who's in top 10 and played a slam SF?


There is more to tennis than talent.
If it was all to talent, Fognini would've won slams.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:46 pm

Tenez wrote:

I admit that there is a gap between now and Djoko and Nadal. But I don't think we were excited when Djoko and Murray were 20. Nor when Hewitt and Ferrero were dominating and Federer was finding his way.

To get things interesting, players have to make a name of themselves and that take time. The problem is that the Nishi generation has the talent but a lack of professionalism and clearly mental strength have made them uninteresting.
You keep dragging Nole and Nadal out like they are some sort of plague.

I loved their AO 2012 match. It was an iconic, unparalleled battle of wills.
I grant you, it's not fun to watch every week but it's right up there with any "panache" final you can find in the past.

I sometimes admire heart more than grace, because grace is an undeserved gift.
Bartoli's shots were as ugly as sin, but her game was beautiful.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:25 pm

noleisthebest wrote:You keep dragging Nole and Nadal out like they are some sort of plague.
A plague you have detailed for the last decade.



I loved their AO 2012 match. It was an iconic, unparalleled battle of wills.
Sure but a battle of gutless will, neither having the guts or skills to shorten rallies.

I grant you, it's not fun to watch every week but it's right up there with any "panache" final you can find in the past.
Those matches are certainly not amongst those I revisit on youtube regularly. I don;t think many do...whereas I can enjoy a 3rd vision of Fed v Monaco USO 2012 even if it has much less drama.

I sometimes admire heart more than grace, because grace is an undeserved gift.
Bartoli's shots were as ugly as sin, but her game was beautiful.
That's your view. I don;t believe in luck.
Grit is not a choice for some. Thats why they have it.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:32 pm

quite impressive this Felix considering he is only 18!

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:44 pm

Shot for shot there is not much between Agut and Djoko...amazing there is 15 slams and bonkey TMS1000 difference between those 2.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:47 pm

If anything Agut has the better shots. But clearly doesn't move as well and as much as Djoko.


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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:52 pm

Agut is giving the same problem to Djoko than Simon. Long rallies with some pace (well Agut even pacier).

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:27 pm

Djokovic looks tired. Bizarre since he has not played much since the AO.

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Post by bogbrush on Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:36 pm

And that’s him out.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:41 pm

This is what experience is all about. Agut kept improving by learning how to play th etop players and Djoko in particular. It's not luck, he has beaten him 3 times in his last 5 matches and the 2 times he lost were relatively close.

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Post by Daniel2 on Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:50 pm

And if he lost, it's because Djok gets better with age and will dominate.

You basically have both positions and it's silly.

Still think Djok be reaching #slam 20?

lol.

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Post by sphairistike on Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:50 pm

Hehe, seems it is playing faster than you thought  Winking

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Post by summerblues on Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:21 am

Is Djoko's form gone, or is his mind on RG already?

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Post by summerblues on Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:24 am

noleisthebest wrote:There is more to tennis than talent.
noleisthebest wrote:I sometimes admire heart more than grace, because grace is an undeserved gift.
Am I reading this right?  Someone pinch me.  Did someone hack your account, or are you gaining wisdom with age?

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Post by BEL19VE on Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:16 am

Wouldn't read too much into it, Djokovic wasn't focused.

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Post by Daniel2 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:58 am

summerblues wrote:Is Djoko's form gone, or is his mind on RG already?

he's aging and the trend is sudden losses - especially for those who rely more on physique.  It will only get worse as time goes on.  Same for Nadull.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:46 am

summerblues wrote:Is Djoko's form gone, or is his mind on RG already?

The Sunshine double have proved very important tournaments for Djoko. The years when he does well on both, he gets into a great form for the Clay and even beyond. Not reaching even the QF in either of them is a set-back.

I really want 2019 to be the year for the changing of guards. Djoko/Nadal and even Fed to a good extent have had their times and now I want Tsitsi/Thiem/Shapo to take over in slams.

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Post by Jahu on Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:49 am

Agut thank you for this  Laugh

Sad to see Kyrgios loose, wanted him to do good here too, just for fun.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:04 am

Tenez wrote:Actually Shap's FH is much better than Nadal's at the same age. faster and more depth.  
 You make your conclusion just on a handful for those where he gets its all correct. His overfall FH is much weaker compared to a 19yo Nadal. 

 As of now, Shapo misses a lot of balls either long or on the net or shanks. His shot selections at times are wrong. His FH lacks the kind of short acute angles that Nadal hooked FH could generate even close to the net( the extra spin always helps). His CC forehand is miles behind what Nadal was doing back then.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:20 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
Tenez wrote:Actually Shap's FH is much better than Nadal's at the same age. faster and more depth.  
 You make your conclusion just on a handful for those where he gets its all correct. His overfall FH is much weaker compared to a 19yo Nadal. 

 As of now, Shapo misses a lot of balls either long or on the net or shanks. His shot selections at times are wrong. His FH lacks the kind of short acute angles that Nadal hooked FH could generate even close to the net( the extra spin always helps). His CC forehand is miles behind what Nadal was doing back then.

Shapo plays much closer to the BL so he is going to make more mistakes but Rafa has to play closer today as well cause if he were to stand as back as in the past he would be hammered nowadays by everybody. PLayers have had 10 years of training of heavy top spin and they don't have 90in racquets to handle it nowadays so Rafa has had to adapt.

I will show you soon with stats how the game plays faster now than 12 years ago. .

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:38 am

summerblues wrote:Is Djoko's form gone, or is his mind on RG already?

From what I saw he did not seem able to hit the ball too hard and that forced him to rally more than he could and was breathless after many long rallies.

Whether his elbow is flaring up again I don;t know but he looked like the 2017 version at times.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:40 am

sphairistike wrote:Hehe, seems it is playing faster than you thought  Winking

It's when I saw Shapo v Rub that I realised it was faster than thought. However we still have many long rallies! Typical of slowish courts .

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Post by Tenez on Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:48 am

Daniel2 wrote:And if he lost, it's because Djok gets better with age and will dominate.
I don;t have a theory that says players get "overall" better after 32. It's possible, especially on a given day but I don;t draw stupid conclusions on given days. One thing for sure Daniel is that 95% of players do not peak at 25/26. Time you switch your TV on and stop watching 1980s tennis.

You basically have both positions and it's silly.
It's not 2 positions. One explains the other. Players who were 25/26 are now getting better and learning to beat players they could not in the past. Experience is much more important than slight variation of physical form from 26 to 32.

You got it all wrong and stubbornly keep denying reality.

Whether Djoko will reach 20 or not it's not relevant. The fact is based on the last 3 slams, he could.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:55 am

Tenez wrote:
Shapo plays much closer to the BL so he is going to make more mistakes..

1. Those are not 'mistakes'as you are trying to put it mildly. The right words are 'lack of control'. Control on what one executes is the key to success. And control is what defines who has the better shots.

2. No one is forcing Shapo to play on the BL instead of being 10m behind it like Nadal. Players always choose the gameplan that they think works best for them. If standing 10m behind the BL worked better for Shapo, he would be doing it. 

He can play 10m behind BL, on the baseline, inside BL all the time... the playing position is irrelevant in the context of a better FH. For now he is behind a 18-19 yo Nadal.

 Rafa has to play closer today as well cause if he were to stand as back as in the past he would be hammered nowadays by everybody.

He plays closer against certain opponents. On most matches, he still stands way back and still, everyone is not able to hammer him. He is still ranked #2 and great slam results in the most recent years. 

PLayers have had 10 years of training of heavy top spin and they don't have 90in racquets to handle it nowadays so Rafa has had to adapt. 

Then all the new players who have had years of watching and learning training about Nadal's game should be having better success than they are having currently, right? But is that the case?


You want to bring a 2005 Nadal vs a 2019 Shapo/Tsitsi? Its impossible to say who will win. But as history goes, 2005 Nadal beat every single top-dog on clay and made space for himself. 

In 2018/19 the likes of Shapo/Tsitsi are still finding their range to be in top-20.

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Post by Daniel2 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:27 pm

You can't learn to have a left handed forearm (unless you literally started doing it during your early teens) or that much spin.  And most of talent is genetic.  It's not as simple as Tenez continually asserts.

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Post by bogbrush on Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:15 pm

Good quick one for Federer.

His to lose now really.

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Post by summerblues on Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:36 am

bogbrush wrote:His to lose now really.
Just like last week.

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Post by summerblues on Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:41 am

Surprised Tsitsipas lost to Shapo.  I watched the first set and Tsitsipas looked in control.  Comfortable on his serve, always threatening Shapo's serve.  He was much more consistent than Shapovalov.  Either his consistency dropped, or Shapovalov must have cut down errors or became more aggressive.  Overall, it was quite entertaining to watch two young good SHBHs.

One thing though, Shapovalov hits it a little bigger than Tsitsipas.  I still think he has more potential than Tsitsipas overall.

Another thing though, as good as they both are, neither of them is Fed.  Compared to Fed they both look a little pedestrian.

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Post by summerblues on Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:48 am

Very telling age composition of the quarterfinalists.  Four of them are 30+ and the remaining four are all 22 or younger:

oldies:  Fed (37), Isner (33), Anderson (32), Bautista-Agut (30)

youngsters:  Auger-Aliassime (18), Shapovalov (19), Tiafoe (21), Coric (22)

Notably absent anyone in the 25-30 age bracket. No Dimi, Nishi, Raonic, Goffin, Tomic, etc etc.  These guys not only failed to reach the hights of the big 4, they cannot even fill the shoes of Ferrer/Berdych/Tsonga.

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Post by summerblues on Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:55 am

I do not remember Fed ever playing anyone less than half his age.  Thus it would be nice to see him meet Auger-Aliassime.  But they would have to meet before August 8th.  On that day Roger turns 38 and Auger-Aliassime turns 19 (they share birthday).

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Post by summerblues on Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:04 am

Felix makes it to SF.  He looked quite solid.  He looks quite mature and focused for his age too.  I can see him possibly beating Isner and reaching final too.

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Post by summerblues on Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:06 am

Speaking of Isner, his scores in Miami so far:

7:6, 7:6
7:5, 7:6
7:6, 7:6
7:6, 7:6

smiley

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:30 am

summerblues wrote:Speaking of Isner, his scores in Miami so far:

7:6, 7:6
7:5, 7:6
7:6, 7:6
7:6, 7:6

smiley

This is his problem, especially in slams which are bo5. He has to be playing long matches from the 1st round. And by the time he generally reaches QF or SF, he runs out of gas.

He has done well for his limited on-court movement.

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Post by Slippy on Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:49 am

Great to see FAA, Shap and Tiafoe having a great run. Hopefully, we get a FAA v Shap/Tiafoe final which will really start to liven up the season. 

That said, the most likely scenario looks to be Isner v Fed in the final which has to be one of the outright dullest matches on tour. That will be a really depressing ending to a fairly poor quality first quarter of the year.

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Post by bogbrush on Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:50 am

summerblues wrote:
bogbrush wrote:His to lose now really.
Just like last week.
Indeed. And he did indeed lose it though it was obviously his to do so.

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Post by sphairistike on Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:43 pm

summerblues wrote:Surprised Tsitsipas lost to Shapo.  I watched the first set and Tsitsipas looked in control.  Comfortable on his serve, always threatening Shapo's serve.  He was much more consistent than Shapovalov.  Either his consistency dropped, or Shapovalov must have cut down errors or became more aggressive.  Overall, it was quite entertaining to watch two young good SHBHs.
I was actually surprised the match started like that and Shapo seemed to be playing worse than previous rounds as I really thought Shapo, despite younger, should beat Tsi relatively easily. I believe Tsi is overrated and both Canadian teenagers are better than him, especially future potential wise...

summerblues wrote:One thing though, Shapovalov hits it a little bigger than Tsitsipas.  I still think he has more potential than Tsitsipas overall.
Totally agreed here indeed! I think FAA too.

summerblues wrote:Another thing though, as good as they both are, neither of them is Fed.  Compared to Fed they both look a little pedestrian.
Totally agreed again. No comparison talent wise.

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Post by sphairistike on Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:47 pm

Slippy wrote:Great to see FAA, Shap and Tiafoe having a great run. Hopefully, we get a FAA v Shap/Tiafoe final which will really start to liven up the season. 

That said, the most likely scenario looks to be Isner v Fed in the final which has to be one of the outright dullest matches on tour. That will be a really depressing ending to a fairly poor quality first quarter of the year.

I think FAA can beat Isner as he can be quite good on serve (as long as he focuses) and is defo better on returns. So let's hope for FAA in F. I'd like to see Fed vs. Shapo and even though I think Shapo can win, I'll be rooting for Fed as I'd like to see also Fed vs. FAA.

FAA winning his first master 1000 a 18 years of age would be tremendous, who knows, maybe Fed will be in a generous mood again  Winking but it would be great for Fed to beat someone born in the 2000's as well and add one more master to make the count 28 and 101 for overall tournaments.

But first Fed has to beat KA, which normally should be easy but somehow since mid 2018, nothing has come easy to Fed even against people he should beat, especially in slams (Wimbledon vs. KA, USO vs. Millman, AO vs. Tsitsipas)  Sad

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