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Post by Jahu on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:39 am

Tsi already making himself a bitch, complaining to judge that he is giving privileges to Bryan bros just like to Fed.


https://mobile.twitter.com/ProdigyRepV3/status/1112098128033910786

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Post by bogbrush on Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:38 pm

summerblues wrote:
DEC1M7 wrote:However Tenez thinks in an absolute sense that Shap's peak is likely to be higher than Federer's peak. BB doesn't:

bogbrush wrote:The difference is that Shapovalov will simply never be able to play that well. No matter what he does.
Except that it is not obvious what BB means by "that well".  His full quote is:

bogbrush wrote:What I’m saying is that if Federer had picked up a big racquet and decided to, he’d have played his 2017 game in 2006, but better. He just didn’t play that way because he didn’t.

The difference is that Shapovalov will simply never be able to play that well. No matter what he does.
One possible, and to me the most natural, interpretation is that he means "as well as Fed would have played in 2006 if he had picked up a big racquet earlier".  And that to me sounds compatible with what Tenez is saying.
No, just to clear that up, I am saying that if you give Federer 20006 the new racquet and explained to him what the next 12 years would look like, and six months to groove it in, he would play at a level to spatter 2017 Federer. He wouldn’t need to improve his shots, they were already there, just attend to a different set of tactics and practices.

Essentially, it’s a coaching job.

Shapolavov will never get anywhere near even if you handed him the script. And that’s no dishonour to him, he just isn’t Federer.

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Post by summerblues on Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:48 pm

BB, and when you say "will never get anywhere near", do you mean anywhere near Fed's 2017 level or anywhere near where 2006 Fed would have been with bigger racquet?

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Post by summerblues on Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:51 pm

I can only watch maybe first 45 minutes of the match today :-(. That is the problem with these US tournaments - the deciding matches are played at inconvenient times for me.

Cannot wait for the clay court season. Hopefully Thiem is practicing hitting his BH from 2m high.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:00 pm

bogbrush wrote:.....
Shapolavov will never get anywhere near even if you handed him the script. And that’s no dishonour to him, he just isn’t Federer.

I am indeed in complete disagreement with this. It;s like saying Shapo will never reach Wawrinka's level.

Stan never had the guile of Federer but when he won the french he was a better clay player than Federer cause he had enough firepower from both wings to beat the best players of the time. Federer did not have it. He was forced to do the running cause his BH was a liability.

If Stan can do it on clay, I am pretty sure Shapo (and others) will get to even higher levels. Guile is one weapon the sport doesn't really care it evolves to find a way to better it and this is exactly what we saw with Nadal and Djokovic getting better than Federer.

I don;t quite understand what is your basis to say such things. And btw "the script" doesn't really help....its the exposure which really helps. The script will never make you better at handling Nadal's spin.

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Post by Slippy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:26 pm

Jahu wrote:Tsi already making himself a bitch, complaining to judge that he is giving privileges to Bryan bros just like to Fed.


https://mobile.twitter.com/ProdigyRepV3/status/1112098128033910786
Poor umpiring to be honest. The Bryans waited to see if the lob return was in before challenging. Shouldn’t have been permitted.

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Post by Jahu on Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:34 pm

Exactly, but Fed is never late to challenge nor does he waste 30 sec looking at the line and than challenge, so Tsi was unreasonable and bitchy.

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Post by DEC1M8 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:48 pm

summerblues wrote:BB, and when you say "will never get anywhere near", do you mean anywhere near Fed's 2017 level or anywhere near where 2006 Fed would have been with bigger racquet?
Fed of both 2006 with old racket and 2017 with new racket will be beyond the level Shap will ever reach unless racket tech improves significantly during Shap's career. I think only Tenez disagrees with that.


Last edited by DEC1M7 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:29 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Slippy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:48 pm

Tenez - Davydenko beat Kafelnikov once, in the year Kafelnikov retired. Kafelnikov also, even at his best, had a reputation for losing matches at low level tournaments to lower ranked players from time to time. I think it’s fair to say that he didn’t beat peak Kafelnikov.

Similarly, RBA hasn’t improved so that he is playing at Djokovic’s level. Novak, in the events he’s lost to RBA, simply hasn’t played anywhere near the level he has sustained for a large portion of the last 10 years. I suspect, given his age, that he’s more concerned with the slams now (particularly given his chances to make history at RG) rather than racking up Masters series wins.

The truth is that, rather than tennis continuing to improve, we are going through a slightly stagnant period. The big 4 were so far ahead of the generation below them that, even now their level has diminished slightly (or they can’t sustain it as consistently), they are still able to dominate when fit. However, I don’t think there is much doubt that the tennis at the very highest level isn’t quite as strong as it was in, say, 2012.

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Post by DEC1M8 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:51 pm

Tenez wrote:No they are not at a lower level than the current top 3. They are at a very similar level. Agut is far from being a great, he is just a journey man ranked 25 like Davydenko was considered by some at the time, but those guys are/were very close to the top 3 levels.
...
To take my example, Agut has improved enough to make him a contender to Djokovic. Sure he won;t win 15 slams now but he can hit harder and as consitently as Djoko.
Alright, wow we really are on different planets.
That's the conclusion you got from watching Agut beating Djokovic? That their levels are close now?
I don't think Agut is in the same stratosphere as Djokovic. Djokovic can hit every shot better than Agut, with more pace, more depth, more accuracy, and is a better mover.
The only reason Agut has beaten him twice this year is because Djokovic didn't care in those tournaments, he was mentally all over the place and missing easy shots. Djokovic even said in his post match conference after Miami that he had been distracted by off-court issues which explains his performance.

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Post by Slippy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:31 pm

DEC1M7 wrote:
Tenez wrote:No they are not at a lower level than the current top 3. They are at a very similar level. Agut is far from being a great, he is just a journey man ranked 25 like Davydenko was considered by some at the time, but those guys are/were very close to the top 3 levels.
...
To take my example, Agut has improved enough to make him a contender to Djokovic. Sure he won;t win 15 slams now but he can hit harder and as consitently as Djoko.
Alright, wow we really are on different planets.
That's the conclusion you got from watching Agut beating Djokovic? That their levels are close now?
I don't think Agut is in the same stratosphere as Djokovic. Djokovic can hit every shot better than Agut, with more pace, more depth, more accuracy, and is a better mover.
The only reason Agut has beaten him twice this year is because Djokovic didn't care in those tournaments, he was mentally all over the place and missing easy shots. Djokovic even said in his post match conference after Miami that he had been distracted by off-court issues which explains his performance.
I’m amazed this surprises you. Tenez’s entire posting history is dedicated to a theme that Nadal and Djokovic are ordinary players not fit to lace Fed’s boots. The fact they have stellar careers is obviously problematic for his theory. Initially, he started from a premise that they were just fitter than Fed (unnaturally of course) and had also benefitted from changes in technology just as they were coming on to tour. He’s built on that with a theory that, gentleman that he is, Fed held himself back by using an inferior racquet for years - with a proper racquet he’d have smashed up even the steroid enhanced opposition. He’s just that damn good. 

However, there’s another problem with his theory. For 12 or so years, no other players have managed to reach Novak or Rafa’s level. In Tenez’s mind this can’t be because they are extraordinary players. He’s therefore hit on the idea that it’s because they timed their rise to the top, through sheer luck, perfectly. As players now get better with age, even though they aren’t better than the other guys on tour, Novak and Rafa are still able to beat the younger guys through “experience” (and fitness). If a player of a similar age manages to beat them, it’s because they’ve just improved to reach what (in Tenez’s mind) is the very ordinary level of play of Rafole, rather than it being a poor performance by them. In contrast, any such defeats for Roger will be due to injury or tiredness.

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Post by DEC1M8 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:43 pm

slippy wrote:If a player of a similar age manages to beat them, it’s because they’ve just improved to reach what (in Tenez’s mind) is the very ordinary level of play of Rafole, rather than it being a poor performance by them. In contrast, any such defeats for Roger will be due to injury or tiredness.
Laugh Laugh
Can't argue with that!

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Post by DEC1M8 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:54 pm

So what you're saying is Tenez concocted this theory in order to compute why his prediction of Nadal not winning any more slams past 2012 was wrong.
But then the theory like Frankenstein morphed into its own monster, and now Tenez is having to face the logical consequences of the idea, trying to defend why Shapavalov will soon be way better than Federer's peak level. Run

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Post by Slippy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:01 pm

Quite so but he has the fallback of saying that, if Fed was Shap’s age, he’d be way better.

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Post by bogbrush on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:07 pm

summerblues wrote:BB, and when you say "will never get anywhere near", do you mean anywhere near Fed's 2017 level or anywhere near where 2006 Fed would have been with bigger racquet?
I mean that for Shapovalov to become a higher level performer would require a quite dramatic level of enhancement through external effects, be they racquet or personal training.

My main point is that Federer reached his peak as a tennis player around his physical peak and any difference in result is simply down to equipment or tactics, not strokeplay.

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Post by summerblues on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:14 pm

bogbrush wrote:
summerblues wrote:BB, and when you say "will never get anywhere near", do you mean anywhere near Fed's 2017 level or anywhere near where 2006 Fed would have been with bigger racquet?
I mean that for Shapovalov to become a higher level performer would require a quite dramatic level of enhancement through external effects, be they racquet or personal training.

My main point is that Federer reached his peak as a tennis player around his physical peak and any difference in result is simply down to equipment or tactics, not strokeplay.
I hear that but that still does not answer my question.

Do you allow that Shapo's peak can reach Fed's 2017 (i.e. Fed's post-peak)?

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Post by Slippy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:27 pm

bogbrush wrote:
summerblues wrote:BB, and when you say "will never get anywhere near", do you mean anywhere near Fed's 2017 level or anywhere near where 2006 Fed would have been with bigger racquet?
I mean that for Shapovalov to become a higher level performer would require a quite dramatic level of enhancement through external effects, be they racquet or personal training.

My main point is that Federer reached his peak as a tennis player around his physical peak and any difference in result is simply down to equipment or tactics, not strokeplay.
Or difference in the opponents’ level? Arguably, Nadal and Novak were some way short of their own best in 2017/early 2018.

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:30 pm

Some good points Slippy.

I would contend one thing however. Not that you've explicitly said this, it is implied in your post. 

I actually believe Federer IS a better, more talented player than both Nadal and Djokovic. But the difference is only slight. All three are incredibly talented. But the preponderance of slower courts has greatly favoured the other two. Not so much Nadal - he's always had Fed's number and, at least until Federer switched to the larger racquet, it was just the worst possible matchup for him.

Djokovic is a different matter. He is probably the best baseliner out of the three but in the forecourt and around the net he is seriously deficient. His amazing defence on the generally slow courts makes it very difficult for an offensive player like Federer to hit through him and in that respect I certainly believe the prevailing conditions have benefitted Djokovic, and in particular against Federer who's more rounded game and skillset is blunted by these same conditions.

By extension the same conditions have also made it easier for Djokovic's one suit fits all game to flourish all year round. If the USO had remained a faster HC and W maintained a faster slicker grass I don't think he'd be sitting on 15 slams. He is far more prone to being upset in faster conditions than Federer.

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:32 pm

Slippy wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
summerblues wrote:BB, and when you say "will never get anywhere near", do you mean anywhere near Fed's 2017 level or anywhere near where 2006 Fed would have been with bigger racquet?
I mean that for Shapovalov to become a higher level performer would require a quite dramatic level of enhancement through external effects, be they racquet or personal training.

My main point is that Federer reached his peak as a tennis player around his physical peak and any difference in result is simply down to equipment or tactics, not strokeplay.
Or difference in the opponents’ level? Arguably, Nadal and Novak were some way short of their own best in 2017/early 2018.

I don't think Rafa was too far off his best. Especially at Oz. In years gone by that level probably would have done for Federer but the faster court and the new equipment, allied with the increased confidence of hitting through the BH early allowed Federer to turn the tables.

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Post by summerblues on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:06 pm

Good luck Roger.  I expect him to win this.  My biggest question mark about Roger is how steady his baseline game is.  Shapovalov did not really test it.  Luckily, I do not expect Isner will either.

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Post by summerblues on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:17 pm

Slippy, you don't know what you are missing.  Exciting start to the match!  Break already!

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Post by summerblues on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:36 pm

6:1 with three breaks of serve.  Very cool smiley

Sadly, I will miss the second (and possibly third) set.

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:36 pm

Wow, Fed looking pretty amazing

6-1 in 25 mins with 3(!) breaks of the Isner serve

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Post by DEC1M8 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:37 pm

Peak Shapavalov would have got a bagel

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:39 pm

Fed's BH looking razor sharp. Half volleying off the baseline with unreal timing.

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Post by Daniel2 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:39 pm

A procession...  Isner just a poor man's Del Po.  Always was.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:39 pm

Emancipator wrote:Wow, Fed looking pretty amazing

6-1 in 25 mins with 3(!) breaks of the Isner serve

Can't you see how his reflexes have got worse over the years? Ask Daniel, he will tell you.

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Post by Slippy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:39 pm

Thought this would be easy for Fed but wasn’t expecting a 61 set with three breaks! It’s 12 years since he managed a 62 set against him and he’s never before managed 61!

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:41 pm

Isner's baseline game has definitely improved.

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Post by Slippy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:42 pm

Daniel2 wrote:A procession...  Isner just a poor man's Del Po.  Always was.
That’s harsh on DP. I don’t particularly enjoy watching him but he’s a much more complete player than Isner and his movement is also far better. If anything, his serve should be better given his size. There isn’t really any similarity between them.

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:42 pm

Isner's actually not playing too bad.

Fed in TMF mode so far

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:45 pm

Slippy wrote:
Daniel2 wrote:A procession...  Isner just a poor man's Del Po.  Always was.
That’s harsh on DP. I don’t particularly enjoy watching him but he’s a much more complete player than Isner and his movement is also far better. If anything, his serve should be better given his size. There isn’t really any similarity between them.

Totally agree. Very different players. And pre-injury DP was a balanced player with the most fearsome FH on tour.
Isner has certainly improved his baseline game over the last 18 months

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:46 pm

Federer clearly has the greater support despite Isner being the 'home' player.

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Post by Daniel2 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:50 pm

Slippy wrote:
Daniel2 wrote:A procession...  Isner just a poor man's Del Po.  Always was.
That’s harsh on DP. I don’t particularly enjoy watching him but he’s a much more complete player than Isner and his movement is also far better. If anything, his serve should be better given his size. There isn’t really any similarity between them.

That phrase means Del Po is a good player and Isner isn't.  My comment is literally saying what yours is.

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:53 pm

That was sick from Federer - every shot from return to final put away was just class.

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Post by Slippy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:58 pm

Daniel2 wrote:
Slippy wrote:
Daniel2 wrote:A procession...  Isner just a poor man's Del Po.  Always was.
That’s harsh on DP. I don’t particularly enjoy watching him but he’s a much more complete player than Isner and his movement is also far better. If anything, his serve should be better given his size. There isn’t really any similarity between them.

That phrase means Del Po is a good player and Isner isn't.  My comment is literally saying what yours is.
Not really. “Poor mans DP...” implies that they play a similar style of game, otherwise you might as well have said “poor mans Ferrer” or “poor mans Djokovic”. My point was that DP, save for also being tall, has very little in common with Isner in terms of game style.

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Post by Daniel2 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:59 pm

You don't understand the phrase.

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/a+poor+man%27s



A less desirable substitute for the genuine item



- You could have checked that yourself instead of wasting my time.  Tired of this lazy generation.  Cheers


And, yes, they do play a similar game.

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Post by Slippy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:06 pm

I’m fully aware of what the phrase means. If you think DP plays a similar style then fair enough. He doesn’t but at least you are trying to use the phrase correctly.

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:09 pm

something wrong with Isner. Is it cramp? I have no commentary.

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:12 pm

This is over; Isner can barely move and serve speed down to a crawl.

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Post by Slippy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:13 pm

Emancipator wrote:This is over; Isner can barely move and serve speed down to a crawl.
Whilst I agree with you, it is quite funny that isner’s serve at a crawl is stil 115 mph!

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Post by Emancipator on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:15 pm

Slippy wrote:
Emancipator wrote:This is over; Isner can barely move and serve speed down to a crawl.
Whilst I agree with you, it is quite funny that isner’s serve at a crawl is stil 115 mph!
LOL yes. Just dropping them in.

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Post by Jahu on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:47 pm

Glad Fed won!!!

Sorry for Johnny boy, hope nothing serious, very nice and simple guy.

Next Madrid Open  Big Grin Big Grin

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Post by bogbrush on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:59 pm

Isner did something quite nasty there some time in the 2nd set. 

Until then Federer was in total command. I suspect Isner was a bit done in from all his 7-6 sets, he was very easy to move around and Federer clearly lengthened a few rallies to wear him down. Even the Man isn’t above a bit of that.

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Post by Daniel2 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:32 pm


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Post by Jahu on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:36 pm

Tsi for now is a twat, maybe in a few years he matures as a person, couple of days ago he goes and says needs a break from tennis, making Dinara Safina give him a good critique, git.

https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Tennis_Interviews/68599/nadal-djokovic-would-never-say-what-tsitsipas-said-safina/

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Post by Jahu on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:39 pm

So 5 weeks break for Fed to clay, lets see how those legs play into the dirt.

Would fancy a this weeks good form Fed with a Thiem final, and some payback and at least a SF at RG smiley

No:1 on 2019 ATP Finals Race now!!!

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Post by summerblues on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:34 am

Daniel2 wrote:And, yes, they do play a similar game.
Isner and Delpo?

What have you been smoking?

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Post by summerblues on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:36 am

Jahu wrote:Tsi for now is a twat, maybe in a few years he matures as a person, couple of days ago he goes and says needs a break from tennis, making Dinara Safina give him a good critique, git.

https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Tennis_Interviews/68599/nadal-djokovic-would-never-say-what-tsitsipas-said-safina/
I saw this earlier, was also a little surprised.  He is 20 and have not really done much yet.  Too soon for him to be too tired to play.

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Post by summerblues on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:37 am

Jahu wrote:No:1 on 2019 ATP Finals Race now!!!
Unreal.

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