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Post by Tenez on Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:39 pm

The difference between Federer and Nadal when it comes to handling the new generation: Coric, Shapo, Kyrgios, etc....

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Post by summerblues on Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:42 pm

I almost feel sorry for Shapo.  He looks like a nice kid and he looks so uncomfortable - almost embarrassed - there.

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Post by Tenez on Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:47 pm

summerblues wrote:I almost feel sorry for Shapo.  He looks like a nice kid and he looks so uncomfortable - almost embarrassed - there.

He is not as far as you think. Shapo is already getting used to Fed's pace.

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Post by summerblues on Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:49 pm

Tenez wrote:He is not as far as you think.
Do I think he is far? I don't think so.  I think he can play far better than this, and if he finds his usual form the match will be much tighter.

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Post by Tenez on Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:59 pm

Strange match. Shapo is too young and Fed is too old, too experienced even.

Imagine those 2 if they played at their peak....

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:02 am

At 37 Fed was pretty close to winning another IW/Miami double.

It's crazy when I thought those kind of achievements were beyond him at 30.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:20 am

Federer showing as good net skills as a 40 year old doubles player!

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:22 am

I remember Lyndian who tried to convince us (or himself maybe) that at 19 Federer was closer to his peak than Pete at 29 when they faced in 201 Wimbledon. Doh

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Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:25 am

Nice match this.  One of them was playing really well.  I imagine Roger has enjoyed this better than Denis.

Slippy will not be happy with the final pairing. Sad

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Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:25 am

Sir, do you still stand by this from 12 days ago?

Tenez wrote:It doesn't look much but this match really ends Federer's carrer for me. He will not win anything significant from now on.

I think I prefer Jahu's:
Jahu wrote:He will win Miami smiley

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Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:28 am

Let's see if Isner can get another 7:6 7:6 win.  My money is on Federer.

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Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:32 am

If Fed were to win on Sunday, he would get to #1 in YTD race.  Amazing.  Also amazing that Djokovic/Nole/Rafa are once again top three in the race (and quite possibly soon again top three in the rankings), especially given that none of them had an absolutely spectacular start to the year:

Nole/Rafa did well at AO but really nothing since then, and Roger blew up in Australia and has been somewhat shaky thereafter too.

And yet, not one person can match any of them.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:32 am

[quote="summerblues"]Sir, do you still stand by this from 12 days ago?

Tenez wrote:It doesn't look much but this match really ends Federer's carrer for me. He will not win anything significant from now on.

I was thinking about that earlier....but how come Federer plays much better in Miami than he did in that IW final? he could not return and was snatching his BH then...here he is a different player...and I don't believe it was down to Thiem.

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Post by bogbrush on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:33 am

The young man looked a bit baffled by the variety there and contributed to his own downfall, but a nice match by Federer.

No chance of Federer being betrayed by fitness on Sunday.

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Post by Jahu on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:34 am

Good win, not so much work, anyway with Isner is not a tough match.

Shapo WTF happened!!! He looked lost all 1st set and half 2nd set, maybe tired or stressed a little from SF and Fed.

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Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:36 am

Tenez wrote:
summerblues wrote:Sir, do you still stand by this from 12 days ago?

Tenez wrote:It doesn't look much but this match really ends Federer's carrer for me. He will not win anything significant from now on.

I was thinking about that earlier....but how come Federer plays much better in Miami than he did in that IW final? he could not return and was snatching his BH then...here he is a different player...and I don't believe it was down to Thiem.
And he had to play three straight days here unlike in IW.  Anyway, fingers crossed for the rest of the season.  I am sure you will be fine if it turns out you were wrong and Fed wins some more big titles smiley.

I actually do think Thiem was difficult to play against on that particular day, but not going to argue about it now.  Just happy how good Fed looked today.  Who cares about IW if he can win maybe W this year?

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Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:38 am

Jahu wrote:Good win, not so much work, anyway with Isner is not a tough match.

Shapo WTF happened!!! He looked lost all 1st set and half 2nd set, maybe tired or stressed a little from SF and Fed.
I do think he was overawed.  You could see on his face how much respect he has for Fed.  I think he admired Fed's shots almost as much as we did, and that is not the right frame of mind for beating the old man.

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Post by Slippy on Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:34 am

summerblues wrote:Nice match this.  One of them was playing really well.  I imagine Roger has enjoyed this better than Denis.

Slippy will not be happy with the final pairing. Sad
Nope, not one I’ll be going out of my way to watch! Isner has about as much chance of breaking Fed’s serve as I would. Just a horrible match up. Fed to win 75 64.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:59 am

summerblues wrote:...I actually do think Thiem was difficult to play against on that particular day, but not going to argue about it now.  Just happy how good Fed looked today.  Who cares about IW if he can win maybe W this year?

But likewise you said Fed won in his first match in Miami v Albot by playing his worst tennis. So when it is dead obvious you can see Fed playing awful. Fed was playing very badly versus Thiem too. He had 2 or 3 consecutive matches between end of IW beginning of Mimai where he simply refused moving and rallying and his execution was abnormally poor (less 40% of serves returned!!!).

He is still trying to shorten rallies as much as possible but his mouvement looked certainly freer and his execution much better last night.




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Post by Emancipator on Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:02 am

summerblues wrote:Shame about Felix.  He was serving for each set, yet lost in straight.  I hear he served three (!) DFs while serving for the first set.  That is rough.  He is damaged goods now Sad

No he will learn. The moment was too big. But the second serve is a clear weakness - needs to work on it. 
WRT to who has more upside: him or Shap. Definitely Felix. Shap is a little bit more flashy but FAA has controlled aggression. I have no doubt which of the two will go further. He also exudes that winners mentality; i'm the boss and I believe in myself, completely the opposite of snowflakes like Dimi and Nishikori. However, Felix retired from last years USO with a heart condition, not the first time either, as yet undiagnosed, so that could also play a part. 

Of course, when you say mesmerised by him - that is not true. I just see potential for success. His game is ok to watch but there's nothing there that makes me want to support him. Similar to Djokovic - excellent game for the times and conditions to garner success. He's certainly not a Federer but then again no one is.

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Post by Emancipator on Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:05 am

Tenez wrote:Strange match. Shapo is too young and Fed is too old, too experienced even.

Imagine those 2 if they played at their peak....

Federer would win easily in str8 sets. I can confidently predict that w/o having even seen Shap's peak.

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Post by Emancipator on Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:14 am

Federer looks to have found his groove again. Not quite 2017 but not too far off. Probably as good as we can expect at this age. 

Not to blow my own trumpet but it's exactly what I expected. I said last year, if he can have a run of fitness (at least 6 months) the results will follow. 

But of course at this age, anything can happen at any time; a sudden injury or just a crap match out of nowhere. Like the loss to Goffin (Jesus.. Goffin - that weak pile of shit) at the WTF in 2017. That's definitely one that got away and probably would have secured that record against Nole.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:43 am

Tenez wrote:Strange match. Shapo is too young and Fed is too old, too experienced even.

Imagine those 2 if they played at their peak....

The two are an incompatible mismatch.
Tsits at his prime would suit Federer more.

Shapo is very unique.
I don't know if he'll ever grow up, but even as he is I adore his youthful bouncing around the court and that sheer energy and elan, he plays with the spirit of springtime.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:28 am

Shapo will become a better player than Fed by a mile. If Djoko and Nadal became as good as Fed....imagine those guys.

Whether Shapo would have got as good as Fed had Fed learnt to play tennis with Shapo generation and with a larger frame, that I agree is debatable. I like to think Fed's grace and mental strength would make him a better player than Shapo (and much better than Tsi).

But the fact is Fed learnt the game in a much lower level with antique tools than now and that is a bit unfair. It allowed some very terrestrial players like Nadal and Djoko to challenge him. Would have been a very different story otherwise.

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Post by bogbrush on Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:45 pm

I always found that using inferior equipment made me a better player. Sure, when you then pick up the superior tools the result is better but the intrinsic skill is best honed using smaller head, less power.for example, finding the sweet spot on a large head racquet is so easy there can be laziness in timing which then limits the ability to execute more demanding strokes.

Shapovalov will never be half the player Federer has been.

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Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:07 pm

bogbrush wrote:Shapovalov will never be half the player Federer has been.
+1

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Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:11 pm

Emancipator wrote:Of course, when you say mesmerised by him - that is not true. I just see potential for success.
All I meant to say I did not see as much potential as you did.  I did not mean to imply anything more by the word "mesmerized".  Not saying that I was correct - maybe he will prove me wrong and become another Nole.

Emancipator wrote:His game is ok to watch but there's nothing there that makes me want to support him. Similar to Djokovic - excellent game for the times and conditions to garner success.
Sort of agree with this.  Not a big fan of his game style, though I can see he may become successful.  At least he is quite aggressive.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:24 pm

bogbrush wrote:I always found that using inferior equipment made me a better player. Sure, when you then pick up the superior tools the result is better but the intrinsic skill is best honed using smaller head, less power.for example, finding the sweet spot on a large head racquet is so easy there can be laziness in timing which then limits the ability to execute more demanding strokes.
Yes using old tools can help but it is the very reason Fed lost so many matches v Rafa and Nole. In that very case, a larger frame gives you more sweet spots and therefore more options and above all more power which was crucially needed v Rafa in particular.

Shapovalov will never be half the player Federer has been.
That sounds to me a typical Daniel's comment. No real basis for it. It is way too early to say. What we know however is that he will (bar injury) reach a higher level in tennis than Federer even if he does not win as much.

You often mention McEnroe as having reached a perfection in tennis....yet he was beaten by many average players who became much better than him. In a few years we will look at Federer as we look at Borg or McEnroe now...they were unbeatable at their time but they would be beaten by everybody now.

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Post by Daniel2 on Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:45 pm

Laughable....

Tenez... you truly are bonkers.

You've got no basis for your comment other than you think players over the years improve and improve and improve as human evolution works differently in your dreamland.

You also know sod all about the physics of tennis - and think big racquet = better racquet.

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Post by Emancipator on Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:27 pm

Shapovalov is 6 ft tall. Physically already at a slight disadvantage given the ideal height for tennis players seems to be around 6ft 1-2 inches (Fedal, Djokovic, Sampras) and presuming he's stopped growing. 

Other than equipment, which is basically string tech now since racquets have hardly changed in the last 10 years, how do you envisage that he will be a better player than Federer. Does he look more talented? certainly not to me. Just watch Fed vs Sampras at the same age and despite playing with a much smaller racquet head and on faster conditions Federer played at a level over 5 sets that Shap can only dream about. 

The whole concept of linear progression in sport, which Tenez seems to advocate, is incorrect. It holds true for fledgling sports or sports in which technology has a massive impact (formula 1 etc) but progression over time is much slower in established sports. In fact there are probably periods of regression and certainly stagnation until the appearance of some phenom which then moves the sport on again a notch - Shap is definitely not that. 

At the end of that Fed/Samp match Flemming who was commentating sums it up perfectly. From memory he says sthing along the lines of 'that last return was the story of the match, Federer explosive on the returns off of both wings'. We all knew we were watching something new. Till then most players heavily favoured one side (nearly always FH). Federer had a more well rounded skill set than Sampras and it became more clear as time went on. Does Shap bring anything different? I can't see it. 

Sadly for Federer, the slower conditions blunted his offensive game and allowed Nadal and Djokovic, in particular, to even out the gap in talent and skillset.

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Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:51 pm

Tenez wrote:You often mention McEnroe as having reached a perfection in tennis....yet he was beaten by many average players who became much better than him.
I think this is an argument on terminology not substance.

Paavo Nurmi won 1928 10,000m Olympic gold with time 30:18.8.

On 14Dec17, Nicholas Earl finished outside top 10 at the Australian 10,000m championship with time of 29:45.80.

Who is better?  Paavo Nurmi or Nicholas Earl?  It all depends on what we mean by "better".  In terms of raw numbers, Nicholas Earl runs faster, but I suspect most people would view Nurmi as far "better".

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Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:55 pm

Emancipator wrote:The whole concept of linear progression in sport, which Tenez seems to advocate, is incorrect. It holds true for fledgling sports or sports in which technology has a massive impact (formula 1 etc) but progression over time is much slower in established sports. In fact there are probably periods of regression and certainly stagnation until the appearance of some phenom which then moves the sport on again a notch
This is very true.  And easily seen in vast majority of sports where performance is measurable.  They tend to advance over time (e.g., see my 10,000m example above) but not nearly as quickly as Tenez would have us believe.  I tried to point this out long ago but to no avail.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:29 pm

summerblues wrote:
Tenez wrote:You often mention McEnroe as having reached a perfection in tennis....yet he was beaten by many average players who became much better than him.
I think this is an argument on terminology not substance.

Paavo Nurmi won 1928 10,000m Olympic gold with time 30:18.8.

On 14Dec17, Nicholas Earl finished outside top 10 at the Australian 10,000m championship with time of 29:45.80.

Who is better?  Paavo Nurmi or Nicholas Earl?  It all depends on what we mean by "better".  In terms of raw numbers, Nicholas Earl runs faster, but I suspect most people would view Nurmi as far "better".
Better is better....It is pretty clear. Greater is probably the term you mean. Nurmi has achieved "greater" results but Earl was faster hence better.

When we are talking about Djoko and Nadal for instance. Many might consider Nadal as greater (arguably) yet it's pretty clear Djoko became better (not quite arguable). If someone tomorrow produces a clay game much better than Nadal, he will be straight away better but only dominating  over the years can make him greater.

Now regarding Shapo and Federer...there is of course a big age difference, yet they have played against each other. I would expect Shapo to become better than Federer but I do not expect many of his generation to become better than Federer was...but already in Fed's time, 2 players have beaten him more often than not over many matches. That simply shows that tennis is constantly moving on and it is gettinng harder and harder as more and more players enter competition.

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Post by Emancipator on Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:41 pm

Yes it will move on but not, I think, at such a rapid pace that Shap at his peak (probably within the next 6-7 years) is gonna be better than Federer ever was. No chance. 

I agree with Tenez regarding the difference between better and greater except of course tennis cannot be measured in simple metrics. It's subjective and obscured by playing considitions and competition.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:45 pm

summerblues wrote:
Emancipator wrote:The whole concept of linear progression in sport, which Tenez seems to advocate, is incorrect. It holds true for fledgling sports or sports in which technology has a massive impact (formula 1 etc) but progression over time is much slower in established sports. In fact there are probably periods of regression and certainly stagnation until the appearance of some phenom which then moves the sport on again a notch
This is very true.  And easily seen in vast majority of sports where performance is measurable.  They tend to advance over time (e.g., see my 10,000m example above) but not nearly as quickly as Tenez would have us believe.  I tried to point this out long ago but to no avail.

I know you won't like it but you are both very wrong cause unlike the sports you mention, tennis is played against a large array of opponents who are constantly developping new weapons and players have got to adapt to all those new weapons otherwise they won't win anything.

We saw very clearly how a whole generation was beaten suddenly cause Federer had skills no-one could handle. Fed came along and the level went up a few notches but it was not long before Fed had to keep improving to stay with Nadal, same happened when Djoko arrived. Hewitt, Roddick, and that promising generation were quickly overtaken.

When you race or play golf there is no way your opponents score or swing can make you a faster or better player. But in tennis it is different.

Tennis would evolve much more slowly if players for instance were only trained by a single coach and measured against that coach. If that was the case you would have a point. ...But it is not the case.

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Post by Emancipator on Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:50 pm

Slippy wrote:
summerblues wrote:Nice match this.  One of them was playing really well.  I imagine Roger has enjoyed this better than Denis.

Slippy will not be happy with the final pairing. Sad
Nope, not one I’ll be going out of my way to watch! Isner has about as much chance of breaking Fed’s serve as I would. Just a horrible match up. Fed to win 75 64.

Don't think you can ever completely discount Isner; he's beaten Fed twice including their last match in 2015.
But I think Fed will win in straight sets. Hopefully.

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Post by Emancipator on Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:54 pm

Tenez wrote:


We saw very clearly how a whole generation was beaten suddenly cause Federer had skills no-one could handle. Fed came along and the level went up a few notches but it was not long before Fed had to keep improving to stay with Nadal, same happened when Djoko arrived. Hewitt, Roddick, and that promising generation were quickly overtaken.

Yet Federer and Nadal have been at the top for nigh on 15 years, Djokovic for 13.
Why haven't they been overtaken?
It looks increasingly like the only thing that will overtake them is time. Or do you think 37 year old Federer is better than the 25year old version?

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:24 pm

Emancipator wrote:Or do you think 37 year old Federer is better than the 25year old version?
What is the 37yo version? The one who played terribly v Albot last Sunday or the one who played last night?

One thing for sure is that the 25yo version would not have won AO 2017. It is as simple as that.

25yo Fed lost 4 times out of 6 to Nadal, including one on fastish HC.

Fed has not lost a match v Nadal since he reached 34...in spite of Nadal being number 1 during that period!

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Post by bogbrush on Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:37 pm

You give 2006 Federer a big racquet, a lengthy video and coach report of Djokovic and Nadal, and 6 - 12 months to prepare and he’d clean up.

The guy hasn’t improved, it’s just that he’s adapted tactics to suit a different set of opponents. That’s not made him better, he’s just playing differently to what he did back then. 

He always had a great volley (look back to the Sampras match) and he would go over the backhand routinely. The clips are all over the internet. He moved to chipping the backhand because that was the killer tactic against Roddick, Gonzales, etc. and he played with a smaller head and was very reticent to change it.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:11 pm

bogbrush wrote:You give 2006 Federer a big racquet, a lengthy video and coach report of Djokovic and Nadal, and 6 - 12 months to prepare and he’d clean up.
Does it matter? The point is that federer in 2017 won a match he would have lost at 25. All you describe is actually the reasons why he played better in 2017. those 6-12 months to "prepare" is exactly the few hours on court he spent with nadal. Without that time fighting Nadal he would not have found the way and improved and this is why they keep saying they make each other better.


The guy hasn’t improved, it’s just that he’s adapted tactics to suit a different set of opponents. That’s not made him better, he’s just playing differently to what he did back then. 
SB would probably call that a nice piece of semantic. If you don;t adapt you don't improve, in fact you decline in terms of results and success. It's as simple as that. I am really puzzled at how you define better and improve in tennis.

He always had a great volley (look back to the Sampras match) and he would go over the backhand routinely. The clips are all over the internet. He moved to chipping the backhand because that was the killer tactic against Roddick, Gonzales, etc. and he played with a smaller head and was very reticent to change it.
yep but those guys were sending a much easier ball to volley. You don't volley a ball coming straight at you the way you volley a zippy ball deeping in your feet. Once again, volleying had to be reinvented cause all the great volleyers were getting destroyed by the new way of playing with new strings. So call it "adapting" if you wish but the result you had to learn a new way to come to the net and volley in order to become successful again at the net.

I simply call this improving.

Likewise Djoko could run a lot before 2011...he was flexible too. However he had to move better and be even more flexible after 2011 to adapt (or improve as ou wish) to get to outlast Nadal.

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Post by bogbrush on Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:23 pm

What I’m saying is that if Federer had picked up a big racquet and decided to, he’d have played his 2017 game in 2006, but better. He just didn’t play that way because he didn’t.

The difference is that Shapovalov will simply never be able to play that well. No matter what he does.

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Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:45 pm

bogbrush wrote:What I’m saying is that if Federer had picked up a big racquet and decided to, he’d have played his 2017 game in 2006, but better. He just didn’t play that way because he didn’t.

Yes but that is not really the point here. I am not arguing at how good Fed would or could have been. In 2006 his small racquet without having been coached by Nadal was good enough to make him world number 1. That 2006 federer with that old racquet would have struggled a lot in the last 4 years.

We can't also ignore the fact that 18yo Fed's "coaches" back then were players  like
Pete Sampras, Yevgeny Kafelnikov, Alex Corretja, Patrick Rafter, Richard Krajicek, Carlos Moya
Tim Henman, Marcelo Rios, Mark Philippoussis, Karol Kucera, Andre Agassi, Todd Martin, Greg Rusedski, Albert Costa, Felix Mantilla, Thomas Enqvist, Goran Ivanisevic, Thomas Johansson
..All good players but completely inept to train today's generation especially in view of changing conditions. What I mean by that is that today's top players are giving Shapo, Rublev and FAA a better base to reach even higher levels. Higher levels in the sense that today's level is higher than in the 30s for instance.

That is why I think a few of you underestimate the level Shapo, Tsi and other can and probably will reach and how fast tennis moves on compared to sports were the opponent has no direct influence.

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Post by summerblues on Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:39 am

Emancipator wrote:I agree with Tenez regarding the difference between better and greater
I think there is not much to agree or disagree on in substance here.  This is semantics.

We can have two guys both agreeing that Nicholas Earl runs faster but what Paavo Nurmi did was more impressive.  If one of them calls Nurmi better and the other one calls Earl better, they are not really disagreeing.  They are just saying the same thing using different language.

As a non-native speaker of English I am happy to concede that in English it may be more appropriate to reserve the term "better" for Earl, but that is really irrelevant as far as the substance of the discussion goes.


Based on how BB and Tenez are going about their argument, I am under the impression that they more or less agree with each other, but are both using different vocabulary to describe the same observation, and that their disagreement is more or less illusory.  Maybe I am wrong and they disagree in substance, but it is not clear to me they do.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:25 am

summerblues wrote:
Based on how BB and Tenez are going about their argument, I am under the impression that they more or less agree with each other, but are both using different vocabulary to describe the same observation, and that their disagreement is more or less illusory.  Maybe I am wrong and they disagree in substance, but it is not clear to me they do.
No, they do disagree on substance.
I think we're all agreed it's extremely unlikely Shap will be 'greater' than Federer, in a relative sense, adjusting for technology and quality of training. That isn't up for debate.
However Tenez thinks in an absolute sense that Shap's peak is likely to be higher than Federer's peak. BB doesn't:

bogbrush wrote:The difference is that Shapovalov will simply never be able to play that well. No matter what he does.
I agree with Bogbrush. The only way Shap will be able to play at a higher level than Fed is if radical new racket technology comes around which Shap adapts to. Otherwise, Denis doesn't have Federer's timing or accuracy, however much he trains with good coaches.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:49 am

Tenez wrote:
That is why I think a few of you underestimate the level Shapo, Tsi and other can and probably will reach and how fast tennis moves on compared to sports were the opponent has no direct influence.
As Emanci said earlier, I think you overestimate the speed at which the game improves without changes in racket tech.

Tenez, I can understand your logic: Players improve their level of play as they age. The current youngsters experience 'practice' in the form of matches vs older established players. These matches exposes them to a higher level of play compared to what older generations faced when they were younger. Thus the new generation start their career at a higher level than older generations started, and because everyone improves with age, they eventually raise level above peak of the generation before them. So you get an cyclical upward spiral.

It does make logical sense, but I'd question some of the assumptions.

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Post by summerblues on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:07 am

DEC1M7 wrote:However Tenez thinks in an absolute sense that Shap's peak is likely to be higher than Federer's peak. BB doesn't:

bogbrush wrote:The difference is that Shapovalov will simply never be able to play that well. No matter what he does.
Except that it is not obvious what BB means by "that well".  His full quote is:

bogbrush wrote:What I’m saying is that if Federer had picked up a big racquet and decided to, he’d have played his 2017 game in 2006, but better. He just didn’t play that way because he didn’t.

The difference is that Shapovalov will simply never be able to play that well. No matter what he does.
One possible, and to me the most natural, interpretation is that he means "as well as Fed would have played in 2006 if he had picked up a big racquet earlier".  And that to me sounds compatible with what Tenez is saying.

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Post by BEL19VE on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:14 am

summerblues wrote:
One possible, and to me the most natural, interpretation is that he means "as well as Fed would have played in 2006 if he had picked up a big racquet earlier".
He means that too, but also thinks Shap won't reach the level Fed actually did reach with his new racket. Trust my interpretative skills SB Whistle

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Post by BEL19VE on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:17 am

Rather than re-hash debates we've had on whether one gets better with age, Tenez consider this:

You believe that Shapavalov will reach a level higher than Fedal's peak (which you regard as past few years), even if we don't get technology change.
You believe Shap's key advantage is practice in the form of matches against higher quality opposition. However the top 3 will soon retire, and Shap's 'practice' will then be against players who are ostensibly at a lower level now than the current top 3.
So how would Shap's level ever catch up with Fedals?  They've had the advantage of improving by playing many matches against each other as well as Nole. Shap will have had very few matches against the top 3, and will be playing most matches against lower quality 'next-gen' players when the top 3 are retired. How would this enable him to raise his level beyond Fedal?
Even by your own logic, it's difficult to see how you reach conclusions with such certainty.

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Post by summerblues on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:28 am

DEC1M7 wrote:Trust my interpretative skills SB Whistle
Impressive indeed.  Speaking of which, I would say you owe me an apology for your "performance" a couple of weeks ago.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:06 am

DEC1M7 wrote:Rather than re-hash debates we've had on whether one gets better with age, Tenez consider this:

You believe that Shapavalov will reach a level higher than Fedal's peak (which you regard as past few years), even if we don't get technology change.
Correct. Federer who is a one in century genius was overtaken by Nadal and Nadal by Djokovic in less than a decade.

You believe Shap's key advantage is practice in the form of matches against higher quality opposition. However the top 3 will soon retire, and Shap's 'practice' will then be against players who are ostensibly at a lower level now than the current top 3.
It's your assumptions which are wrong I am afraid. No they are not at a lower level than the current top 3. They are at a very similar level. Agut is far from being a great, he is just a journey man ranked 25 like Davydenko was considered by some at the time, but those guys are/were very close to the top 3 levels. They may not have the nerves to make the difference on key points or that extra stamina to make the difference in slams but they are there or thereabout and keep on learning and improving. Same for the rest of the top 20 more or less. I remember back 15 years ago, people were telling me that Kafel was a "better" player than Davydenko (before davy became much better) but already a very young Davydenko was troubling and even beating Kafelnikov. Yet Davydenko became much better, reached levels that Kafel never reached.

So how would Shap's level ever catch up with Fedals?  They've had the advantage of improving by playing many matches against each other as well as Nole. Shap will have had very few matches against the top 3, and will be playing most matches against lower quality 'next-gen' players when the top 3 are retired. How would this enable him to raise his level beyond Fedal?
That's because your assumptions are wrong. To take my example, Agut has improved enough to make him a contender to Djokovic. Sure he won;t win 15 slams now but he can hit harder and as consitently as Djoko. Zverev is young, very young but he can hold his own v Nadal on clay. I suspect that without injury he will get back on track quickly to overtake Ndal's game there.

Now consider this (and this is for ROTLA too) . Look at the Miami 2006 match between Djokovic and Nadal. Those 2 "Greats" were hitting the ball at a bit more than 20% slower pace than Shapo v Rublev the other day. This is HUGE! I took the average of 5 rallies going over 8 court lengths or more for the 2006 match. Unfortunately I only had one rally going for the Shapo/Rub match,  as there was no decent summary of their match. But I guarantee you will not find a Nadal/Djoko 2006 or even 2011 match with a pace as high as the new gen. It means tennis has moved on and I am not even talking about the time those 2 were taking between points. Nowadays the pace is faster during and between points.

Even by your own logic, it's difficult to see how you reach conclusions with such certainty.
Now you know.

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