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Aus open men's final

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Aus open men's final - Page 4 Empty Re: Aus open men's final

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:45 am

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:And who knows whether Nadal could be the bunny he was with the shot clock? That shot clock has reduced Nadal's time on court by 30% at least...thats a lot less breathing time he used to have, necessary for his gruelling game.

Not sure about that. Take the AO Final 2017. Nadal had to go for broke in that match because Federer's BH wasn't breaking down. Don't think the shot clock has driven the aggressive approach he has had to take. Look at his 1st round match against De Minaur. Played a guy who ran and ran. Nadal would've exhausted more in that match than yesterday's kicking.

I am not sure I understand your point. Nadal is certainly not going to play Federer the way he plays Djoko.

So you think Nadal's taking his time (and Djoko) in the past has nothing to do with needing more breathing time?

It's bloody obvious that's the reason.

At 32 Nadal is at an age when his stamina should be as good as ever. Look at cyclists and marathoniens. The older they get the longer the race they choose to enter. The problem is he is going to struggle with those 5 or 10s less on every point. Those add up to a lot of time. This is why in the past their matches lasted for ever.

And I am glad to note that once again Nadal fails to win a slam within the rules.

The reason you don't see the point is the woods for the trees. 

Let me contextualise.

You cite that Nadal's level of performance is hampered by the shot clock and that he'll succumb to it. I make the point in the first round that he faced a new roadrunner in De Minaur. If you read the match thread on day 1, you'd see the comments. The first 5 games of that match took near half hour to complete!!! So the point is if he is facing someone who is on par with his levels of fitness and with the pressure of the shot clock that he would struggle to maintain his fitness through the match. He bloody routed De Minaur! So to me stands the point the shot clock isn't going to be the thing that ends Nadal! 

He will take the same level of aggression in his play now like he did against Federer at the AO 17 like he did against Djokovic.  He lost both matches which shows when it's a straight shoot out on the racquet, he will succumb to better players. The point I was making is that the shot clock had no impact on Nadal moving to an aggressive game. Yes he might be hurried between points, however it's not having the big impact you are alluding to.

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Post by Daniel2 on Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:53 am

The current shot clock isn't enforced and has no effect.  If it were a true clock - against players like Fed in his prime - Nadal would be butchered.  But neither of those conditions are happening.  And I agree... Tenez attributing this loss to a non existent shot clock is fanciful.

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Post by legendkillar on Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:00 am

I'd like to know when the clock actually stops, whether they consider the server in motion as the serve? I keep seeing the clock run down and yet in most cases, the server not being in motion!! 

Fat lot of good that is!

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Post by luvsports! on Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:01 am

Daniel2 wrote:The current shot clock isn't enforced and has no effect.  If it were a true clock - against players like Fed in his prime - Nadal would be butchered.  But neither of those conditions are happening.  And I agree... Tenez attributing this loss to a non existent shot clock is fanciful.

Any idea why it is not properly enforced? 
It seems players have an eternity to serve. Maybe it starts too late?

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:55 am

legendkillar wrote:The reason you don't see the point is the woods for the trees. 

Let me contextualise.

You cite that Nadal's level of performance is hampered by the shot clock and that he'll succumb to it. I make the point in the first round that he faced a new roadrunner in De Minaur. If you read the match thread on day 1, you'd see the comments. The first 5 games of that match took near half hour to complete!!! So the point is if he is facing someone who is on par with his levels of fitness and with the pressure of the shot clock that he would struggle to maintain his fitness through the match. He bloody routed De Minaur! So to me stands the point the shot clock isn't going to be the thing that ends Nadal! 
I still cannot see your point. Did they play like that for 5 hours?
We know Nadal's tactics too well after watching him for 15 years. He is going to go full throttle at the beginning of the match to impress physically. I have not watched the match but I bet he gave his full and forced De Minaur to do most of the running. What does that prove about the shot clock? That he can of course go full throttle for 30 mn to impress and then run the junior down. I remember Nadal sweating like a pig and being breathless at the end of a first set v Fed in 2006-08 or 10 yet find enough seconds between points to refill the energy (O2) to play the next point like last. Now he is simply not allowed.

It's funny you cannot see the final was a physical match. Everybody (I believe) saw that Nadal was knackered....in spite of the short rallies. That's because he has to hit harder, run faster...yet within the rule.



He will take the same level of aggression in his play now like he did against Federer at the AO 17 like he did against Djokovic.  He lost both matches which shows when it's a straight shoot out on the racquet, he will succumb to better players.
That we always knew....except that in the past he was able to drag those guys into longer rallies thanks to the extra time.

The point I was making is that the shot clock had no impact on Nadal moving to an aggressive game. Yes he might be hurried between points, however it's not having the big impact you are alluding to.

And I disagree. He started to change his game when the shot clock was talked about. He has been taking the ball earlier in the last couple of years. He knew he could not afford to last as long as in the past. The other reason he changed his game most likely is that players were hitting harder and his suffering while retrieving was going to get greater.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:58 am

legendkillar wrote:I'd like to know when the clock actually stops, whether they consider the server in motion as the serve? I keep seeing the clock run down and yet in most cases, the server not being in motion!! 

Fat lot of good that is!

I saw a stat that Nadal was still averaging at 27s....but it is a lot less than he used to do. We even saw him throw a serve in the net to recover more breathing time.

That in itself, for the guy who was fighting every point, is the proof the shot clock is in his mind now.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:12 pm

I just saw the first 3 games of the final. Nadal was nervous. He has a clear mental block...mostly due to the fact he realises he is not hurting Djoko with his shots.

Funny to hear the 2 commentator mention how Nadal's game has changed since the clock. But I will listen to Daniel instead who probably knows much more.

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Post by legendkillar on Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:17 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:The reason you don't see the point is the woods for the trees. 

Let me contextualise.

You cite that Nadal's level of performance is hampered by the shot clock and that he'll succumb to it. I make the point in the first round that he faced a new roadrunner in De Minaur. If you read the match thread on day 1, you'd see the comments. The first 5 games of that match took near half hour to complete!!! So the point is if he is facing someone who is on par with his levels of fitness and with the pressure of the shot clock that he would struggle to maintain his fitness through the match. He bloody routed De Minaur! So to me stands the point the shot clock isn't going to be the thing that ends Nadal! 
I still cannot see your point. Did they play like that for 5 hours?
We know Nadal's tactics too well after watching him for 15 years. He is going to go full throttle at the beginning of the match to impress physically. I have not watched the match but I bet he gave his full and forced De Minaur to do most of the running. What does that prove about the shot clock? That he can of course go full throttle for 30 mn to impress and then run the junior down. I remember Nadal sweating like a pig and being breathless at the end of a first set v Fed in 2006-08 or 10 yet find enough seconds between points to refill the energy (O2) to play the next point like last. Now he is simply not allowed.

It's funny you cannot see the final was a physical match. Everybody (I believe) saw that Nadal was knackered....in spite of the short rallies. That's because he has to hit harder, run faster...yet within the rule.



He will take the same level of aggression in his play now like he did against Federer at the AO 17 like he did against Djokovic.  He lost both matches which shows when it's a straight shoot out on the racquet, he will succumb to better players.
That we always knew....except that in the past he was able to drag those guys into longer rallies thanks to the extra time.

The point I was making is that the shot clock had no impact on Nadal moving to an aggressive game. Yes he might be hurried between points, however it's not having the big impact you are alluding to.

And I disagree. He started to change his game when the shot clock was talked about. He has been taking the ball earlier in the last couple of years. He knew he could not afford to last as long as in the past. The other reason he changed his game most likely is that players were hitting harder and his suffering while retrieving was going to get greater.

Point 1. What does the time of the match matter? It's the style of the match up and manor the match was played. With the shot clock, it means he doesn't have those extra precious seconds you've crowed about and he won a match in 3 sets against someone who was chasing the points down he was. So if anything it weakens your argument significantly. Secondly the reasons 1) Lack of match practice, for sure (even though he reached the final) and 2) Djokovic had him on a rope in that whole match. He was always going to flag in that final. 

Point 2. Debatable. Merit, yet given how Nadal faired here, pardon the pun it needs more time to really analyse the true impact if any. 

Point 3. Nonsense. Remember he just came off a knee injury going into the AO 2017 and another injury going into this one. He has had to change or die effectively even before the shot clock was discussed seriously. Again everyone else sees it. Given the conds there, he has had to play aggressive because the long drawing out of points are all but dead at the AO. Clay he can still revert to his A game. The USO he might still have some success as it's all but a mudpit. Wimbledon still proving all but elusive (except last year with the lack of grass courters in the draw that allowed a safer passage). His adaptation will have mixed to no results at all. I doubt very much that he woke up one morning seeing the shot clock being introduced and thought "shit, the jig is up. I have to change" That change has been ongoing since he came back in 2017.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:33 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Point 1. What does the time of the match matter? It's the style of the match up and manor the match was played. With the shot clock, it means he doesn't have those extra precious seconds you've crowed about and he won a match in 3 sets against someone who was chasing the points down he was. So if anything it weakens your argument significantly. Secondly the reasons 1) Lack of match practice, for sure (even though he reached the final) and 2) Djokovic had him on a rope in that whole match. He was always going to flag in that final. 
That's not a valid argument. De Minaur may have done most of the running. So, it doesn;t prove Nadal could sustain as much running as in the past within 25s. You had a point if I could see it...but I have yet seen Nadal run as much as in the past (we are talking those many long rallies he had) for 3 sets and win. I have seen Nadal play shorter points, take the ball earlier and minimise his long rallies. SO I am afraid, I don;t think you have an argument here.



.. I doubt very much that he woke up one morning seeing the shot clock being introduced and thought "shit, the jig is up. I have to change" That change has been ongoing since he came back in 2017.
You may doubt that but we have proof that he (and Toni) woke up one morning and decided to have OCDs after Miami 06. like suddenly since the shot clock his OCDs have gone again.

His change of game might not be down to the clock only as he probably realised his 2 main opponents (and more others) could handle his spin nowadays and had to be more aggressive to save his body.

But the clock simply prevents him from playing his past A game.



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Post by Daniel2 on Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:28 pm

Answering Luvsports!

The answer to your question is the same as why the time rule wasn't enforced before this clock - and it's related to why the time rule is not enforced in snooker (it does exist).

The reason is:

1. Pressure from governing body to protect star players
2. Pressure from fans and pundits to protect star players (ever heard Castle and McEnroe commentating when a player like Nadal abuses the rule and the umpires give just ONE warning?  - They side with the player and attack the umpire.

3. Gutless umpires.

Did you see how the umpire was treated by the governing body when that gorgon, Serena, verbally attacked and libeled him?  Yeah  - they sided with Serena and threw him under a bus.  So much so that there was talk of a strike by other umpires. 

As usual, follow the money trail.  The sooner our race is gone, the happier Earth will be.  There's not enough people like me around.  Coz a few of these players would have received bans by now - ranging in short to long.  Serena would be off tour for at least a year.  Sharapova would have gotten a life ban.

Rules aren't being enforced because of MONEY and silly fanboy love-ins.  Remember Solkjaer being congratulated by United fans for blatant cheating?  No real punishment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1waQJ3dC5ro

He's seen as a hero for cheating.

People are stupid.  People are greedy.

I guarantee that a rank 500 who exceeded that clock of theirs would be thrown to the wolves.  But, oh no... we can't forfeit Djok or Nadal a game.

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Post by Slippy on Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:06 pm

legendkillar wrote:I'd like to know when the clock actually stops, whether they consider the server in motion as the serve? I keep seeing the clock run down and yet in most cases, the server not being in motion!! 

Fat lot of good that is!
The umpires seem to be pretty consistent in letting it go if the ball is being thrown up at 0. If the motion hasn’t started it will be a warning. 

It’s been well implemented and has served its purpose in speeding up the really slow players (specifically Rafa). The moaning on here is just because it’s not having the expected impact on the “roadrunners”.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:09 pm

Slippy wrote:..The moaning on here is just because it’s not having the expected impact on the “roadrunners”.
Really? the biggest moaner of all was actually Rafa himself.

And it has had a great effect on his style...for the benefit of all. he can't play his gruelling A game anymore.

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Post by Daniel2 on Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:07 pm

Slippy wrote:
legendkillar wrote:I'd like to know when the clock actually stops, whether they consider the server in motion as the serve? I keep seeing the clock run down and yet in most cases, the server not being in motion!! 

Fat lot of good that is!
The umpires seem to be pretty consistent in letting it go if the ball is being thrown up at 0. If the motion hasn’t started it will be a warning. 

It’s been well implemented and has served its purpose in speeding up the really slow players (specifically Rafa). The moaning on here is just because it’s not having the expected impact on the “roadrunners”.

The expected impact is that they can't abuse the time rule, which is what they ARE STILL DOING. Have you even watched a game since its introduction?  The clock regularly hits 0 (and no-one needs even 20-25 seconds to be frank, unless it's after a marathon point) with no warning.  ZIP.  And that's even when the player isn't in a  serve motion.  The umpire still has the option of CHOOSING when to warn a player - something the clock was meant to stop. 

It's a farce that you need to stop making excuses for.

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Post by Slippy on Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:37 am

The shot clock unfortunately was in a poor position for TV viewers to see. However, each time the TV chose to show it as it was ticking down to zero it was notable that warnings were given. It was also noticeable that Rafa particularly was having to speed himself up regularly to avoid going over time. It was apparent he was glancing at the clock to see how long he had left. He definitely missed a few first serves as a result. 

Can you give some examples where players were regularly letting the clock get to zero and then not being punished? The best example I saw was Tsitsipas against Fed, who picked up a warning and loss of first serve in the opening game. He then proceeded to play well within time after. 

It’s apparent that the slow players have had to speed up. They just haven’t had to speed up as much as you’d like.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:41 am

I agree with Slippy here (can happen). The clock works. And it's very easy to see that Nadal's games sets and matches are much quicker than before.

He is still abusing it by a couple of seconds on average....but not by 10secs like in the past.

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