Should Doping Be Allowed In Sport?

Tenez wrote:I believe than any tennis athlete being serious about making a living of playing tennis is considering doping if not doped already.

Amateurs turned to pro to make a better living off of Tennis. Take the money out and the sport will become Curling.

Tenez wrote:THat's how bad I see the game now.

Rather a subjective view.

Tenez wrote:Speeding conds could change that those it is likely to change the drugs used.

Even on clay? There is nothing to stop steroid use to become stronger and taller and serve at 300kmph, is there?

Tenez wrote:A good dosage of Meth could be considered to increase reactions.

The after-effects are rather painful though. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/body/

I don't think Bgdha is lazy at all actually. He left teh comfort of his family as a child to be trained in France and it was terrible for him. It looks like someone who has energy and enthusiasm if anything.

I think he is one of those players who woudl be more highly ranked if doping was not rampant cause he certainly has some talent.

In fact bar Nalbandian, I woudl not know any lazy tennis player in the top 100. There is no room for them nowadays. As I said McEnroe woudl not make the top 100 in this generation working as hard as he did.

laverfan wrote:

paulcz wrote:Fortunately they are too lazy anyway.

Pretty certain you do not have any Greek friends, do you Paul?

I had my a classmate friend at the University, her name was Anastacia Cocota. Northern Moravia welcomed many Greeks after second war, so there still live many Greeks and they keep their tradion in Czech republic You seem to have some Greek friends, so what is your idea about Greece?

laverfan wrote:Rather a subjective view.

Are your views more objective?

That's a very subjective statement.

Even on clay? There is nothing to stop steroid use to become stronger and taller and serve at 300kmph, is there?

Yes there is. You reach a plateau with technology meaning added power will not automatically translate into more pace. Plus you'd lose precision.

Tenez wrote:The after-effects are rather painful though. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/body/

If you are an addict yes, but well dosed, it;s very efficient. Soldiers have been using it for years on battle field and they would not take anything that could endenger more their lives unecessarily. I have read enough on it to know how beneficial it can be when well dosed. It's not banned for no reason.

paulcz wrote:You seem to have some Greek friends, so what is your idea about Greece?

I know a couple of restaurant owners, very hard working. Doctors and Engineers that I know are very hard working too. And these are immigrants. BTW, you may not want to put full names of people on an anonymous forum.

Tenez wrote:Yes there is. You reach a plateau with technology meaning added power will not automatically translate into more pace. Plus you'd lose precision.

Raonic, Isner, Karlovic and Roddick are serving at very high speeds and practice can make the serves precise. From wooden racquets to graphite, carbon fiber, basalt and plates, luxilon, etc. has already changed the game. It is hard to predict how technology will change the game.

Tenez wrote:Soldiers have been using it for years on battle field and they would not take anything that could endenger more their lives unecessarily. I have read enough on it to know how beneficial it can be when well dosed. It's not banned for no reason.

Soldiers already have endangered lives anyway. Tennis may not be as 'do-or-die' situation compared to a battle-field. Traditional opium use is much more prevalent compared to synthetic meth in battle theaters.

laverfan wrote:

paulcz wrote:You seem to have some Greek friends, so what is your idea about Greece?

I know a couple of restaurant owners, very hard working. Doctors and Engineers that I know are very hard working too. And these are immigrants. BTW, you may not want to put full names of people on an anonymous forum.

LF, it is already 20 years and she is surely married, so it is not sensitive anymore and the spelling of the name was not correct.

I do not know if Greek doctors work more than Czech, but I know that the average salary in |Greece is higher by about 60% against Czech, but on the other hand Greek state deficit is 160% of GDP against 40% in Czech. I can not generalize that all Greeks are lazy on the base of this info, but it proves that Greeks live beyond their income and this surely make people lazy.

paulcz wrote:LF, it is already 20 years and she is surely married, so it is not sensitive anymore and the spelling of the name was not correct.

Just being cautious.

paulcz wrote:I do not know if Greek doctors work more than Czech, but I know that the average salary in |Greece is higher by about 60% against Czech, but on the other hand Greek state deficit is 160% of GDP against 40% in Czech. I can not generalize that all Greeks are lazy on the base of this info, but it proves that Greeks live beyond their income and this surely make people lazy.

Joining the EU does put additional burden on countries. Many countries seem to have financial difficulties and maintaining fiscal discipline. Italy, Ireland, Portugal and many others also have different living standards. It is difficult to generalise, salaries are just one aspect of the overall financial picture.

Very interesting list since you mentioned it.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TG.VAL.TOTL.GD.ZS

http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-database/economic-data/10395-public-deficit-by-country-2006-2013.html#axzz2AKmGWpJb

speaking of Greeks, I'll never forget my first holiday there as a student on the ultra shoe-string budget.
It was in a place called Metamorphosis, in Halikidiki.
we got there by coach with no air-conditioning, all sticky and desperate for a shower after a 15 hour long journey.
There was no water in the hotel.
Not for three days.
I kept pestering the manager EVERY day about it as the only problem seemed to have been a pump that needed to be bought. I'd find him asleep during all parts of the day, at his desk, with a dusty little vase with even dustier plastic rose in it.
Every day he'd promise the next day.
so I'd sit at the balcony of the hotel "Paradise" ( ) only to see an old man water his little vegetable patch regularly. Every day. For hours.
The pump arrived on the fifth day.
On the fourth day there was water for about an hour. Same for the rest of the 10 day stay.
Yes, the pump was fitted the day we left.
And the road to the hotel laid the day before, hot and fresh enough to ruin my only decent pair of Dunlop trainers I had at the time.....

Funny thing, I have always remembered that holiday so fondly just for all those reasons. The food in home-style little tavernas was second to none, though, and so cheap. Million times better than what I got fleeced for in the glammy 5 star Santorini full of snobby tourists years later....

Just realised the topic should doping be allowed in sport, how I got to talking about my first holiday in Greece, I don't know, sorry!

laverfan wrote:Raonic, Isner, Karlovic and Roddick are serving at very high speeds and practice can make the serves precise. From wooden racquets to graphite, carbon fiber, basalt and plates, luxilon, etc. has already changed the game. It is hard to predict how technology will change the game.

Hard to predict but the speed gun is not moving much. It has plateaued a lot since the 90s.

Soldiers already have endangered lives anyway. Tennis may not be as 'do-or-die' situation compared to a battle-field. Traditional opium use is much more prevalent compared to synthetic meth in battle theaters. [/quote]

Anyway do some more research and you will find out that meth, well dosed, can be an excellent PED and I also read that the side effects are not that bad either. It's all substanciated in the old 606 threads.

Tenez,
I did not follow it closely at the time, but what really happened to Gasquet and that cocaine kiss? Was he doped with cocaine, or just used it casually and it showed in the test?

That's the thing. Cocaine is not a very good product. It would have similar effect than Meth but much shorter and therefore no guarantee you will be able to finish a match on a high. Gasquet probably took some but pretty sure not for doping purpose.

Apparently a few players including Becker used quite a bit of it in his matches according to Noah (1982).

To the OP:

Doping should never be legalized in any sports, even if some athletes are already doping and getting away. There is no limit to how wrong things can get if one wrong thing is legalized.

If doping is allowed thinking it will be an even playing field, then there will be demands for legalization of other wrong practices which are currently being done keeping it hidden. E.g. Some cricketers for many years now have been favoring the legalization of ball tampering. Their say is it evens the contest between the ball and bat especially in the Indian subcontinent pitches where the ball hardly swings. They say every team already tampers the ball hiding it from the umpire or the cameras. So why not legalize it?

But imagine if this is legalized, what will happen? Bowlers will tamper the ball, now they can do anything with it. Stick a nail into it, cut it into half and what not. Will that remain a cricket match?? NO. Where can one draw a line beyond which it becomes illegal. Even if there is, there will always be cases of players crossing the line. So how will that situation be any different from what it currently is where the line is already drawn that prevents any kind of ball tampering.


Doping in sports is just like that. If its legalized there is no limit to what a player will do to win. Then there will be questions raised why not legalized other things commiting fouls in football. Why not remove other rules which are the very backbone of the a sport. It will still be a level playing field. Where does one draw the line now? If there is no line will it remain a sport? It will turn into an anarchy, and I certainly would not want to watch it.

noleisthebest wrote:Tenez,
I did not follow it closely at the time, but what really happened to Gasquet and that cocaine kiss? Was he doped with cocaine, or just used it casually and it showed in the test?

IIRC Gasquet had a small quantity found in his sample. He did immediately come and protest his innocence and was quick to say that he himself did not indgest the drug willingly or knowingly. Yes the excuse seemed 'far-fetched' but clearly he was certain because as I understand it he was in Miami when the incident occured. I can only assume he was tested at the Miami Masters event. Recreational drugs tend to be quite difficult to really understand why they are banned why they carry the same levy as someone using performance enhancers which for me do more damage to the sport than recreational.

I recall Hingis testing positive for Cocaine in 2007 and denying it, but also refusing to fight the charges and the claims. Strange that was. Sure duly retired soon afterwards.

We call them recreational but they are not if yuo are an athlete. I know we have had that discussion with Agassi and his meth and we differed there.

Cocaine and meth sharpen your senses and boost your confidence. As far as I know they are allowed outside competition but not in competition. Though I'd need to check on that.

I don't know Ten. When I played a soccer match many years ago our striker took 2 lines of cocaine before the match. He was in on goal with just the goalkeeper when our winger slotted the ball through and instead of kicking the ball, he kicked the advancing goalkeeper in the head in a deliberate act of trying to hurt someone.

The experiences of being around the people who have used it makes me think it is evil

Yes this agressivity can be very useful when there is a net separating the players.

Steroids also increase aggressivity.

Those junky who use it must have existing problems pushing them to abuse the substabce and lead them further to hell. It's very different when yuo are a healthy athlete using meth with smart doses to give you the confidence and reflexes key in a tennis match.

I don;t think you can compare the junkies in teh council flats with international athletes. It will be different doses, different reactions.

Agreed. I do think something like Cocaine encourages more reactive responses to emotions than logical thinking. Yes Cocaine can used in treatment as I have seen it issued in solutions.

Cocaine in very small doses would have the similar effect as caffeine. Why risk cocaine when caffeine in a slighter higher dose can generate the same effect. I would be very surprised if an athlete used a small dose for that purpose given the legal stimulants available.

legendkillar wrote:Why risk cocaine when caffeine in a slighter higher dose can generate the same effect.

Yes but meth is even better. I wish I coudl retrieve all the info I posted on beeb 606. It was pretty telling....and certainly more powerful than coffee.

But to go back to the subject, yes I would love to see all top 10 players play a full summer without any supplement. Just orange juice, meat and pasta.

I think we woudl be extremely surprised by the end result and one thing for sure we would not have those long rallies for 4 or 5 hours, especially if we cut it back to 20 or 25s.

Caffeine they can manipulate it and mix it with other stimulants.

I would like to see players diets revert to the meat and potatoes kind

Many would fall by the wayside!

I know there is gluten-free pasta, so Nole should be fine!

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Why risk cocaine when caffeine in a slighter higher dose can generate the same effect.

Yes but meth is even better. I wish I coudl retrieve all the info I posted on beeb 606. It was pretty telling....and certainly more powerful than coffee.

But to go back to the subject, yes I would love to see all top 10 players play a full summer without any supplement. Just orange juice, meat and pasta.

I think we woudl be extremely surprised by the end result and one thing for sure we would not have those long rallies for 4 or 5 hours, especially if we cut it back to 20 or 25s.

You forgot wooden rackets, gut strings and grass courts.

And this would prove what? How talented a particular player is? Talent itself is the only virtue? Everything else is cheating?

And why am I still able to post here?

Johnnn wrote:
And why am I still able to post here?

Because no one here likes to ban any posters. Its no iron fist ruling in here. You have your second chance, now up to you to do what you want to do with it.

What S.Tignor thinks on the topic :

"The Report Shows, Again, Why Doping Should Not Be Legalized

In 1999, Lance Armstrong had a new goal: He wanted to win the Tour de France. How did he go about it? He fired his old doctor, Pedro Celaya because, according to a teammate, Celaya “had not been aggressive enoughfor Armstrong in providing banned products.” Lance replaced him with Johan Bruyneel and Luis Garcia del Moral, who had been associated with another racing team that was known for “its organized team doping.” Armstrong would win the next seven Tour de Frances.

It wasn’t improved training or skill that won Armstrong those titles; it was improved drug taking. Some have argued that hiring a better doctor is not much different than hiring a better coach or trainer. But the job of a coach or trainer is to get the most out of your natural abilities. Doping changes your nature, what’s in your blood, artificially. You get more stamina simply by injecting it."

The power of doping can make an average cyclist win 7 TDFs on the trott. It's huge.

The second paragraph is such a succinct & depressing read.

noleisthebest wrote:It wasn’t improved training or skill that won Armstrong those titles;

Yes...that is what always made me laugh when I read people defending today amazing physical performances: "They work harder, they have better diets, better training sessions." ...yeah....right!

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:It wasn’t improved training or skill that won Armstrong those titles;

Yes...that is what always made me laugh when I read people defending today amazing physical performances: "They work harder, they have better diets, better training sessions." ...yeah....right!

I can understand them because they have never played any sports or tried to be fit, so have no idea about body's limits.
I don't believe in 100m sprint record breaking. It's a myth.

interesting video on this topic for london 2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPRAvi6kmO4

Well this Julian is right when he says that the few names caught are just the tip of the iceberg and that probably the huge majority if not all dope.

Dpoing is about gaining an unfair advantage.....though I am sure the vast majority dope not to be unfairly disadvantaged by those having access the latest doping techniques.