Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» ATP 1000 Shanghai Masters.
Yesterday at 8:30 pm by Tenez

» Wimbleodn adopts final set TBs
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:34 pm by Daniel

» Guerrilla, not gorilla, warfare: Fired tennis analyst who nearly died to have his day in court
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:55 am by bogbrush

» How good is Stefanos Tsitsipas?
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:11 am by Tenez

» Murray and his future.....
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:15 pm by mcekovic

» Laver Cup - seriously?
Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:35 pm by DEC1M7

» Men's Final - USO 2018
Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:36 pm by legendkillar

» Ladies Final - USO 2018
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:48 am by bogbrush

» Why the big 3 Slam tally might never be matched
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:26 pm by Jahu

October 2018
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
1234567
891011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
293031    

Calendar Calendar

Affiliates
free forum


Djokovic's greatest triumph

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by luvsports! on Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:22 am

I honestly believe this one!

Please give it a read.

The hyperlinks I put in there have not come through but the serve and return bits are true!

https://www.theroar.com.au/2018/07/17/wimbledon-novak-djokovics-greatest-triumph/

luvsports!

Posts : 4563
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:59 am

It's a good article. One thing you say is spot on, that this is not the player of a few years ago, in fact I think he would struggle to get 3 games a set against his younger self; the serve is inferior for sure.

Now one aspect you might consider; what does that say about Nadal? He was bested by "this" Djokovic. Does that mean he'd have been handed his head by Djoko v2016?

bogbrush

Posts : 2422
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by luvsports! on Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:14 am

Thanks Bogbrush.

I never know with that stuff, but I would tend to agree with you. I still think there are too many intangibles over this stuff. 
Like players always do stuff to counteract the other player's strengths.

luvsports!

Posts : 4563
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by gallery play on Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:25 pm

bogbrush wrote:It's a good article. One thing you say is spot on, that this is not the player of a few years ago, in fact I think he would struggle to get 3 games a set against his younger self; the serve is inferior for sure.

Now one aspect you might consider; what does that say about Nadal? He was bested by "this" Djokovic. Does that mean he'd have been handed his head by Djoko v2016?
I doubt that. If you look at the stats of the H2H you'll find very few matches Nole won more than 68% (his winning ratio of their last encounter) of his servicepoints. Including 2016 when he completely dominated Nadal.
Nole's serve actually pulled him through last saturday. I would rather say the return is still not the weapon it once was. Many times Nadal saved himself by serving to Nole's FH. 

I think we've seen some of Nadal's best matches ever on grass this year. Had Nole not been -at least- close to his best, he never would have beaten this Nadal.

Perhaps, because of his lighter racquet Nole's shots may have lost some weight but i like to see the stats of that first.

gallery play

Posts : 2620
Join date : 2012-09-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:13 pm

My impressions haven't settled yet.

By all accounts this Wimbledon win (or any Wimbledon win for that matter) surely has to come with lot of pomp and glamour...but for some reason, for me it arrived quietly.

Some here will maybe remember this post after Nole's loss to Berd in Wimbledon 2016:

noleisthebest wrote:

As a poet, I felt that loss very deeply, almost outside of me...end even cried. (btw I've never ever cried about any of his losses before or after).

At the time, I was at war with Nole, annoyed with many of his ways and I didn't want to support him.

Yet when I saw him shake hands with Berd at the net as he retired, this powerful emotion came out of nowhere and totally overwhelmed me...and I really felt like he died in some way....and that it was somehow my fault...just like Lear with Cordela in his arms in that clip.

Needless to say, I was more than surprised by the whole "moment".

With the historic hindsight, I think Nole did die that day...and we know what followed; how he sacked his whole team, went into buddhism, survived a few major private earthquakes...

I knew that if there was one thing that could resurrect him it was tennis.
Nothing else.

Because that has always been the only place where he was able to be "himself".

Unlike most of his peers, he grew up on the tennis court almost literally, away from his family, parents, etc...that's where he learnt all his emotions, ways of dealing with life outside it.

And because he had big pressure from his parents, his ways were "linear" and secure...just like his tennis.

He simply never had the luxury to be free-range and organic, creative.

Everything was subjected to winning.

This is where I think he developed his single-mindedness and refusal to lie down.

His will to win is his single biggest weapon.

And that will was dead and buried in Wimbledon 2016.

In the meantime, he obviously worked a lot on his tennis, his shots are flatter (that itself took a looooot of work) elbow injury was real and tough...and a direct consequence of his spinny groundstrokes and the burnout that muscle group was subjected to with the relentless 2015-16 winning, ball-pounding machine phase...

But "he" was still dead.

Knowing some of the personal issues he had to deal with, tennis practice must have been an asylum for keeping him sane.

I believe just like swimming, you can never forget to play tennis.

In these comebacks we've seen from Federer, Nadal, Stan and now Nole, we can see how different those roads were.

Fed was back like duck to water as his only issue was his injury. The winning man inside him has always been intact. Plus there was the Mighty Mirka to remind him of that every day.

During his comeback, Nole was Robinson Crusoe with only the ball telling him he could be back.
(almost like "Wilson"  with Tom Hanks in "Castaway")...

For Fed to come back, he needed the NeoBH. Nole needed to be NeoHimself.

So, I think it's the tennis ball that's "saved" Nole. Nothing else.
And the warmth and irrational connection he has with Vajda and GG...his true tennis brothers/family.

The rest was and I believe still is (and in that I include fans, his wife and even children) just a muffled distant sound.

So is this latest Wimbledon his greatest moment...I actually don't think so.

Mainly because it's so bitter sweet.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:34 pm

luvsports! wrote:Thanks Bogbrush.

I never know with that stuff, but I would tend to agree with you. I still think there are too many intangibles over this stuff. 
Like players always do stuff to counteract the other player's strengths.

"This" Nole is better than any pre come-back ones. Wait for the confidence to come fully back to see the difference.

His shots are flatter and his attitude is more relaxed.

The fact he beat best-ever Nadal calmly without ripping shirts either outwardly or inwardly says a lot.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:01 pm

Oh God, we're back into everyone being best-ever territory are we?

bogbrush

Posts : 2422
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:01 pm

I would be inclined to say no this isn't his greatest triumph. The taste of winning never goes away, it just becomes a forgotten delicacy which drives gluttonous appetites for sure. 

For me his greatest triumph was his first Slam. It was right in the midst of a powerful duopoly in whereby Federer and Nadal had won 11 out of the 12 previous Slams. This before he even became the durable and limitless energy machine, before his serve became a powerful weapon and also during the time when he was struggling with his septum as well as his gluten intolerances. 

Yes this redemption story gives weight to this being Roger's AO2017 or Nadal's FO 2017, but the competition isn't there yet in terms of high quality. Which is why I'd be hesitant to rank this so highly.

legendkillar

Posts : 2506
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Jahu on Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:14 pm

Djoko sucks, anyone writing or commenting about him, should be banned from this Forum  Laugh Laugh

LS pretty spot on article, but surely you could of done with a line at the end that this will be Djokos last GS  Whistle

Jahu

Posts : 2935
Join date : 2016-02-23
Location : Egg am Faaker See

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by luvsports! on Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:46 pm

Laugh

luvsports!

Posts : 4563
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:00 am

Great to see Nole & Angie dance full of joy & life.
Way to go...carpe momentum! Bubbly


noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:26 am

For me he played his best in Wimbledon 2014 win against Fed.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark

Posts : 3171
Join date : 2012-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Daniel on Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:58 am

bogbrush wrote:Oh God, we're back into everyone being best-ever territory are we?

It's tedious, isn't it.  Some online are again banging on about him reaching 21 slams.  People are dumb.

Daniel

Posts : 3620
Join date : 2013-11-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by bogbrush on Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:08 pm

Daniel wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Oh God, we're back into everyone being best-ever territory are we?

It's tedious, isn't it.  Some online are again banging on about him reaching 21 slams.  People are dumb.
Super tedious, and super nonsensical.

Anyone watching Djokovic would know that version wouldn't get a set in 6 months against the infinite stamina, harder serving, relentlessly aggressive defending machine that won 4 Slams in a row. And by definition, Nadal who lost to him is a step behind. I mean, it's not really hard to get that is it?

bogbrush

Posts : 2422
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:17 pm

bogbrush wrote:Oh God, we're back into everyone being best-ever territory are we?

If you can't see how well Nadal played vs Nole in the semi, I can't help you.

That was by far the best Nadal I've ever seen.
His CC BH was faster than his FH, he went DTL on tap on both wings, he even played all-court tennis and mixed his game up with lots of very gutsy drop-shots.

Plus he defended amazingly, but he has always been good there.

His only weakness is his serve now...which is better and faster than in the past, just not as good as the rest of his game.


And for Nole to beat this Nadal....well he must have done something right...

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:05 pm

I also think Nadal's tactics were wrong vs Nole, he was the aggressor and ran out of steam in the fifth, he didn't bank on Nole being as confident and consistent. Nole simply rose to the occasion which is what I expected to happen.

So, I am sure Nadal will not play the same when they meet next.

Scary thing is Nadal has room for improvement...I can see him drilling flattened BHDTL in the off-season, he does not have that shot yet.

On the other hand, Nole has even more scope to get better...(in this semi, he really didn't have to play "anything special"...which is amazing when you think how well Nadal played...he just did to Nadal what Nadal does to all those who try to beat him with attacking tennis - brought everything back...and it is equally amazing what is required of a player to be able to to "only" that...and that Nole s the only player who can actually do it) esp when his confidence kicks properly into all of his shots.
I was impressed with some of his volleys in Wimbledon.

I just hope USO is not as slow as last year, and that Nole is not in Fed's half.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Daniel on Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:21 am

noleisthebest wrote:

That was by far the best Nadal I've ever seen.
  Laugh


Sure it was.  A step slower than his prime. Coming off 5 solid years of grass defeat after defeat.  And a piss easy draw until he met Del Potro who he owns - and Djokovic who he doesn't.

There was a lot of running and that was about it.  They were both better in the australian open they contested.

With every single Djok victory you elevate him to godhood.. and every defeat there must be an injury or a family crisis.  

It's bollocks.

Daniel

Posts : 3620
Join date : 2013-11-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by bogbrush on Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:14 am

Daniel wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:

That was by far the best Nadal I've ever seen.
  Laugh


Sure it was.  A step slower than his prime. Coming off 5 solid years of grass defeat after defeat.  And a piss easy draw until he met Del Potro who he owns - and Djokovic who he doesn't.

There was a lot of running and that was about it.  They were both better in the australian open they contested.

With every single Djok victory you elevate him to godhood.. and every defeat there must be an injury or a family crisis.  

It's bollocks.
I was going to reply directly but you've covered most of it.

If that was "by far" the best Nadal you've ever seen then it follows this was "by far" the best that Djokovic has ever been, which given he's playing with a compromised service is really saying something. Something crap, true, but saying something for sure.

I sometimes think we are either giving with goldfish, who have forgotten everything before the last performance, or people just fall into the hyperbolic media habit.

bogbrush

Posts : 2422
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Slippy on Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:29 am

Is Djokovic’s serve compromised? He banged down 20+ aces against Nadal. Centre court is very quick but I don’t recall him getting anywhere close to that number in any match in the past. I’m not saying it was better than before but I think it’s hard to coherently argue it was weaker given the stats. 

That said, wonderful match though it was, both players are clearly slightly off their peak. We were certainly not seeing the absolute best of both guys.

Slippy

Posts : 412
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by luvsports! on Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:21 pm

He did serve very well this tournament but the stats clearly show (visit the atp website for comparisons) that in 2018 he was not serving as well as in 2015.

luvsports!

Posts : 4563
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by gallery play on Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:33 pm

Slippy wrote:Is Djokovic’s serve compromised? He banged down 20+ aces against Nadal. Centre court is very quick but I don’t recall him getting anywhere close to that number in any match in the past. I’m not saying it was better than before but I think it’s hard to coherently argue it was weaker given the stats. 

That said, wonderful match though it was, both players are clearly slightly off their peak. We were certainly not seeing the absolute best of both guys.
Of course it wasn't. BB apparently thinks when he tells this lie a thousand times it becomes the truth.
The best option here is to check the stats. Not only his ace count was quite good, his winning % of servicepoints is right up there with his dominant years. It fact was now even better than when he beat Nadal easily at Wimbledon 2011. 
It's actually the % on return points where he lost a bit, and that's because of Nadal's better attacking game and Nole's weaker FH return

gallery play

Posts : 2620
Join date : 2012-09-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by gallery play on Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:04 pm

luvsports! wrote:He did serve very well this tournament but the stats clearly show (visit the atp website for comparisons) that in 2018 he was not serving as well as in 2015.


Here's a list of all of their matches at slams and the % of the points Nole won on serve:
RG 2006 46%
RG 2007 52%
W 2007 57%
RG 2008 58%
USO 2010 58%
W 2011 67%
USO 2011 58%
AUS 2012 66%
RG 2012 54%
RG 2013 61%
USO 2013  55%
RG 2014  60%
RG 2015 70%
W18 68%

So just once Djokovic won more points on serve than in their last match at Wimbledon. Ironically that was on clay but it was also the famous day Nadal was demolished

gallery play

Posts : 2620
Join date : 2012-09-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by luvsports! on Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:12 pm

Good find, GP. 
My point, however, was for the year as a whole.
Those stats back up my point.

luvsports!

Posts : 4563
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by bogbrush on Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:22 pm

Whatever. Everyone is moaning but everyone except nitb is agreed these guys are not "best ever".

It bores me stiff to hear this relentless "best ever" crap, it really does. On the basis on one match between the two guys in discussion it's argued both are better than ever because of their performance against each other. I guess when they're in their 90's we could still be saying Djokovic's serve is amazing because he's acing Nadal like mad, and Nadals groundstrokes are "best ever" because Djokovic is being passed for fun.

bogbrush

Posts : 2422
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by bogbrush on Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:23 pm

gallery play wrote:
luvsports! wrote:He did serve very well this tournament but the stats clearly show (visit the atp website for comparisons) that in 2018 he was not serving as well as in 2015.


Here's a list of all of their matches at slams and the % of the points Nole won on serve:
RG 2006 46%
RG 2007 52%
W 2007 57%
RG 2008 58%
USO 2010 58%
W 2011 67%
USO 2011 58%
AUS 2012 66%
RG 2012 54%
RG 2013 61%
USO 2013  55%
RG 2014  60%
RG 2015 70%
W18 68%

So just once Djokovic won more points on serve than in their last match at Wimbledon. Ironically that was on clay but it was also the famous day Nadal was demolished
So it looks like Nadals returning is worse than at almost any time in their head to head.

bogbrush

Posts : 2422
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by gallery play on Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:15 pm

Djokovic total service points won:
2018: 67%
Career: 67%

NAdal total return points won:
2018: 56%
Career: 54%


NAdal played a great Wimbledon, probably better than the last time he won it. That Nole must have done something right to beat NAdal is crystal clear.

gallery play

Posts : 2620
Join date : 2012-09-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:59 pm

gallery play wrote:
luvsports! wrote:He did serve very well this tournament but the stats clearly show (visit the atp website for comparisons) that in 2018 he was not serving as well as in 2015.


Here's a list of all of their matches at slams and the % of the points Nole won on serve:
RG 2006 46%
RG 2007 52%
W 2007 57%
RG 2008 58%
USO 2010 58%
W 2011 67%
USO 2011 58%
AUS 2012 66%
RG 2012 54%
RG 2013 61%
USO 2013  55%
RG 2014  60%
RG 2015 70%
W18 68%

So just once Djokovic won more points on serve than in their last match at Wimbledon. Ironically that was on clay but it was also the famous day Nadal was demolished

I read today that Nole's new 2018 racquet is now not only lighter, but that the head size is bigger. That means he's probably gone to 100" (from 95" previously, ouch!) and that may explain better serve (I am assuming a slightly bigger sweet spot - every little helps!)

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Slippy on Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:45 pm

luvsports! wrote:He did serve very well this tournament but the stats clearly show (visit the atp website for comparisons) that in 2018 he was not serving as well as in 2015.
Oh I agree - but I think we all know he was, by his standards, garbage up until the grass season, with his serve being particularly ordinary. The question is whether that serving continued during Wimbledon but he won regardless or whether his serving was much closer to his usual level. I would argue it was the latter.

Slippy

Posts : 412
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Daniel on Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:04 pm

% won on first serve isn't the same as serve speed or the first serve % in.

Work out why that matters.  I am tired of repeating why.


The opposition these days is also woeful.  

It's as if some of you guys think humans have no upper limit... like they will run 100m one day in 5 seconds.

Daniel

Posts : 3620
Join date : 2013-11-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by bogbrush on Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:15 pm

gallery play wrote:Djokovic total service points won:
2018: 67%
Career: 67%

NAdal total return points won:
2018: 56%
Career: 54%


NAdal played a great Wimbledon, probably better than the last time he won it. That Nole must have done something right to beat NAdal is crystal clear.
This is such a failure of logic I don’t know where to start.

bogbrush

Posts : 2422
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:47 pm

BB, admit it, you ain't got a clue how to compare players ability over the course of their career.

Daniel, too. And a few others. Honestly, you are all cracking me up with claiming Djokovic and Nadal are declining and a step slower....are you blind?

The problem is, those are the basics, so it's difficult to have any further tennis conversation.

I recommend you watch Wimbledon 2011 F and 2018 SF, and see if you can spot the difference.




noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by gallery play on Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:56 pm

bogbrush wrote:
gallery play wrote:Djokovic total service points won:
2018: 67%
Career: 67%

NAdal total return points won:
2018: 56%
Career: 54%


NAdal played a great Wimbledon, probably better than the last time he won it. That Nole must have done something right to beat NAdal is crystal clear.
This is such a failure of logic I don’t know where to start.
That's a relief

gallery play

Posts : 2620
Join date : 2012-09-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Daniel on Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:55 pm

NAdal played a great Wimbledon, probably better than the last time he won it. 

-------

Nope.  He had a ridiculously easy draw and still didn;t win it.

Daniel

Posts : 3620
Join date : 2013-11-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by gallery play on Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:41 am

Daniel wrote:NAdal played a great Wimbledon, probably better than the last time he won it. 

-------

Nope.  He had a ridiculously easy draw and still didn;t win it.
You have to admit Daniel, during the match you said Nole pulled off something way beyond human. It said something about the match you were looking at.

gallery play

Posts : 2620
Join date : 2012-09-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:46 pm

Daniel wrote:% won on first serve isn't the same as serve speed or the first serve % in.

Work out why that matters.  I am tired of repeating why.


The opposition these days is also woeful.  

It's as if some of you guys think humans have no upper limit... like they will run 100m one day in 5 seconds.

Skill, variety and timing keep improving. Fitness, too.
Pros have to find solutions to beat the opponent and the only way is to get better.

If nothing else, look how Fed transformed his BH in 2017.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:37 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Daniel wrote:% won on first serve isn't the same as serve speed or the first serve % in.
Work out why that matters.  I am tired of repeating why.
The opposition these days is also woeful.  
It's as if some of you guys think humans have no upper limit... like they will run 100m one day in 5 seconds.
Skill, variety and timing keep improving. Fitness, too.
Pros have to find solutions to beat the opponent and the only way is to get better.

If nothing else, look how Fed transformed his BH in 2017.

Speaking of Fed, I wonder if he has actually finally peaked. That thought crossed my mind during the "sunshine double"...mainly because he was not able to recreate the form/neoBH from 2017.

And today, I got hold of some great interviews Serbian journalists did during Wimbledon, one was with Mats who said that Fed has started ageing mentally, losing close matches in IW, Miami, now to Kev...(Coric?)

He may have a point.

Funny, I have always thought decline will affect a player physically first.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:04 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Daniel wrote:% won on first serve isn't the same as serve speed or the first serve % in.
Work out why that matters.  I am tired of repeating why.
The opposition these days is also woeful.  
It's as if some of you guys think humans have no upper limit... like they will run 100m one day in 5 seconds.
Skill, variety and timing keep improving. Fitness, too.
Pros have to find solutions to beat the opponent and the only way is to get better.

If nothing else, look how Fed transformed his BH in 2017.

Speaking of Fed, I wonder if he has actually finally peaked. That thought crossed my mind during the "sunshine double"...mainly because he was not able to recreate the form/neoBH from 2017.

And today, I got hold of some great interviews Serbian journalists did during Wimbledon, one was with Mats who said that Fed has started ageing mentally, losing close matches in IW, Miami, now to Kev...(Coric?)

He may have a point.

Funny, I have always thought decline will affect a player physically first.
Because he never lost close matches before.

Honestly, this whole topic is such a load of bull.

bogbrush

Posts : 2422
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Jahu on Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:19 pm

Topic was good (LS just trying to balance his writing with non-Fed articles Big Grin , and nitb as usual trying to keep it alive with mega long posts and useless youtube crap, no one reads/watches  Laugh

So back to this Djoko prick:

LaCoste contract which just kicked in now with W win - $9.4m (€8m) p/a.
Head - 7.5
Seiko - 5.0
Asics - 4.0


So in general 3 x less then Fed, while Fed is estimated that he would make $100m in 2018 after signing a $300m deal with Japanese fashion brand Uniqlo.


Guessing Nadal is inbetween somewhere.


https://www.verdict.co.uk/novak-djokovic-net-worth-sponsorship/

Jahu

Posts : 2935
Join date : 2016-02-23
Location : Egg am Faaker See

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by luvsports! on Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:21 pm

Haha, you have seen through me!

luvsports!

Posts : 4563
Join date : 2012-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:37 pm

Very insightful interview from Vajda:

https://www.b92.net/sport/tenis/vesti.php?yyyy=2018&mm=07&dd=23&nav_id=1422215

He basically says it was him or that Buddhist guru Pepe as a condition to come back...and that he had to have eye to eye talk with Nole and see if he was ready to be competitive again, not “philosophise” about tennis, because “tennis is not philosophy, it’s a battle between two men.”

Also, he had to include fish back into his diet, as before he went completely vegan...which explains why he looked like a skeleton in OZ/IW/Miami.

Personally, I couldn’t believe how thick Nole was to get with that Pepe...I know it was partly to calm the boat that was rocking in his provate life...but of all people a Soaniard!!!!

Anyway...he is out now, Nadal is finished. 🆒

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Emancipator on Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:13 pm

9
bogbrush wrote:Whatever. Everyone is moaning but everyone except nitb is agreed these guys are not "best ever".

It bores me stiff to hear this relentless "best ever" crap, it really does. On the basis on one match between the two guys in discussion it's argued both are better than ever because of their performance against each other. I guess when they're in their 90's we could still be saying Djokovic's serve is amazing because he's acing Nadal like mad, and Nadals groundstrokes are "best ever" because Djokovic is being passed for fun.

The funny part was all the gushing the commentators were doing over the Federer 1st set performance with All the usual tropes such as ‘he doesn’t look like he’s lost a step at all’ and ‘arguably playing the best tennis of his career’ which continued all the way into the third set even as he was clearly starting to look vulnerable and spraying the ball everywhere except in the court. Then he lost the third set and finally the penny dropped. Oh actually he’s not playing well at all today. 

For me that passage of play and the accompanying commentary summed up how ridiculous this whole notion has become. Here was an ageing player clearly struggling with his form and the commentators refused to see it until he was virtually out of the tournament.

Emancipator

Posts : 730
Join date : 2013-02-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Daniel on Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:54 am

^  this.  

They are doing what all the shit media is these days...  creating a narrative.  Using anything they can to back up a conclusion they've already reached.

Daniel

Posts : 3620
Join date : 2013-11-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:26 am


noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:04 pm

bogbrush wrote:
gallery play wrote:
luvsports! wrote:He did serve very well this tournament but the stats clearly show (visit the atp website for comparisons) that in 2018 he was not serving as well as in 2015.


Here's a list of all of their matches at slams and the % of the points Nole won on serve:
RG 2006 46%
RG 2007 52%
W 2007 57%
RG 2008 58%
USO 2010 58%
W 2011 67%
USO 2011 58%
AUS 2012 66%
RG 2012 54%
RG 2013 61%
USO 2013  55%
RG 2014  60%
RG 2015 70%
W18 68%

So just once Djokovic won more points on serve than in their last match at Wimbledon. Ironically that was on clay but it was also the famous day Nadal was demolished
So it looks like Nadals returning is worse than at almost any time in their head to head.
Quite striking how the proponents of "best ever", especially gp who cited these stats, never picked up on my observation that the data could argue both ways. If we assume Nadal is as good a returned as ever then Djokovic's serve might be better than before, but if we assumed Djokovic's serve was the same then Nadal's return must be worse. Neither can be proven from the data.

Of course, if Djokovic's serve was below historical levels (which I thought was common view until this semi-final), then Nadal's return has fallen even further.

Still if we start with the narrative of best ever then I guess we have to assume that since Nadal is returning better than ever, Djokovic's serve has now attained Ivo Karlovic / John Isner levels of impregnability. Feels like something M Night Shyamalan might build into the upcoming "Glass" film, superpowers and all that.

bogbrush

Posts : 2422
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by gallery play on Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:36 pm

bogbrush wrote:

Quite striking how the proponents of "best ever", especially gp who cited these stats, never picked up on my observation that the data could argue both ways. If we assume Nadal is as good a returned as ever then Djokovic's serve might be better than before, but if we assumed Djokovic's serve was the same then Nadal's return must be worse. Neither can be proven from the data.

Well, i did. That's why i showed you Nadal's return stats. Nothing can be proven, but data makes the one argument more reasonable than the other.

Of course, if Djokovic's serve was below historical levels (which I thought was common view until this semi-final), then Nadal's return has fallen even further.
No, you never mentioned "until this semi". You said: "this is not the player of a few years ago, the serve is inferiour for sure". Which was a badly timed statement because his serve helped him a lot to win that semi. On top of that: his serving stats of 2018 show that his serving isn't so bad after all.

And to get this straight, i'm totally uninterested in the "better than ever" debate. I've never joined that debate.
I'm just saying Nadal played very well that semi, I haven't seen him play that good on grass very often. Nole would never have won without great play and some solid serving.

gallery play

Posts : 2620
Join date : 2012-09-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:52 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Quite striking how the proponents of "best ever", especially gp who cited these stats, never picked up on my observation that the data could argue both ways. If we assume Nadal is as good a returned as ever then Djokovic's serve might be better than before, but if we assumed Djokovic's serve was the same then Nadal's return must be worse. Neither can be proven from the data.
Of course, if Djokovic's serve was below historical levels (which I thought was common view until this semi-final), then Nadal's return has fallen even further.
Still if we start with the narrative of best ever then I guess we have to assume that since Nadal is returning better than ever, Djokovic's serve has now attained Ivo Karlovic / John Isner levels of impregnability. Feels like something M Night Shyamalan might build into the upcoming "Glass" film, superpowers and all that.

You don't understand the basic concept that players simply get better with age. Nothing is static in tennis (and in life, in general, too)

You and many others think that Nadal, Djokovic and Federer (and others) were better players 5 years ago.

The whole debate started 6-7 years ago, when pundits etc were writing Federer off and sending him to retirement.

I don't need to point out how wrong everyone was then.

Whether you like it or not Federer played the best tennis of his life in AO17...and Nadal played his best ever match on grass vs Nole a few weeks ago.

I don't know why that simple observation hurts your ego so badly...



noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by bogbrush on Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:45 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Quite striking how the proponents of "best ever", especially gp who cited these stats, never picked up on my observation that the data could argue both ways. If we assume Nadal is as good a returned as ever then Djokovic's serve might be better than before, but if we assumed Djokovic's serve was the same then Nadal's return must be worse. Neither can be proven from the data.
Of course, if Djokovic's serve was below historical levels (which I thought was common view until this semi-final), then Nadal's return has fallen even further.
Still if we start with the narrative of best ever then I guess we have to assume that since Nadal is returning better than ever, Djokovic's serve has now attained Ivo Karlovic / John Isner levels of impregnability. Feels like something M Night Shyamalan might build into the upcoming "Glass" film, superpowers and all that.

You don't understand the basic concept that players simply get better with age. Nothing is static in tennis (and in life, in general, too)

You and many others think that Nadal, Djokovic and Federer (and others) were better players 5 years ago.

The whole debate started 6-7 years ago, when pundits etc were writing Federer off and sending him to retirement.

I don't need to point out how wrong everyone was then.

Whether you like it or not Federer played the best tennis of his life in AO17...and Nadal played his best ever match on grass vs Nole a few weeks ago.

I don't know why that simple observation hurts your ego so badly...


Why on Earth isn't Rod Laver cleaning up then?


Last edited by bogbrush on Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

bogbrush

Posts : 2422
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by bogbrush on Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:46 pm

gallery play wrote:
bogbrush wrote:

Quite striking how the proponents of "best ever", especially gp who cited these stats, never picked up on my observation that the data could argue both ways. If we assume Nadal is as good a returned as ever then Djokovic's serve might be better than before, but if we assumed Djokovic's serve was the same then Nadal's return must be worse. Neither can be proven from the data.

Well, i did. That's why i showed you Nadal's return stats. Nothing can be proven, but data makes the one argument more reasonable than the other.

Of course, if Djokovic's serve was below historical levels (which I thought was common view until this semi-final), then Nadal's return has fallen even further.
No, you never mentioned "until this semi". You said: "this is not the player of a few years ago, the serve is inferiour for sure". Which was a badly timed statement because his serve helped him a lot to win that semi. On top of that: his serving stats of 2018 show that his serving isn't so bad after all.

And to get this straight, i'm totally uninterested in the "better than ever" debate. I've never joined that debate.
I'm just saying Nadal played very well that semi, I haven't seen him play that good on grass very often. Nole would never have won without great play and some solid serving.
Yes, his returns AGAINST DJOKOVIC. The two variables were in play in all matches and so you can't use one to prove the other.

It might have been Nadals inferior return that helped him. It takes two to make a service winner.

bogbrush

Posts : 2422
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by gallery play on Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:46 pm

bogbrush wrote:
gallery play wrote:
bogbrush wrote:

Quite striking how the proponents of "best ever", especially gp who cited these stats, never picked up on my observation that the data could argue both ways. If we assume Nadal is as good a returned as ever then Djokovic's serve might be better than before, but if we assumed Djokovic's serve was the same then Nadal's return must be worse. Neither can be proven from the data.

Well, i did. That's why i showed you Nadal's return stats. Nothing can be proven, but data makes the one argument more reasonable than the other.

Of course, if Djokovic's serve was below historical levels (which I thought was common view until this semi-final), then Nadal's return has fallen even further.
No, you never mentioned "until this semi". You said: "this is not the player of a few years ago, the serve is inferiour for sure". Which was a badly timed statement because his serve helped him a lot to win that semi. On top of that: his serving stats of 2018 show that his serving isn't so bad after all.

And to get this straight, i'm totally uninterested in the "better than ever" debate. I've never joined that debate.
I'm just saying Nadal played very well that semi, I haven't seen him play that good on grass very often. Nole would never have won without great play and some solid serving.
Yes, his returns AGAINST DJOKOVIC. The two variables were in play in all matches and so you can't use one to prove the other.

It might have been Nadals inferior return that helped him. It takes two to make a service winner.
eh, i'm not that stupid..

Nadal has been returning very well this year, thats' why i showed you his return stats of 2018 in total, and not just against Djokovic. (Points won on return: Career 54%, 2018 56%). To suggest that Nadal returned not well specifically that day is not very plausible. 

So, in conclusion, according the stats it's fair to say that despite Nadal's recent improved returning, Nole benifited more from his serve than he usually does against Nadal.

Of course you can argue with that but  you don't have  stats to back it up which makes your argument shallow.

gallery play

Posts : 2620
Join date : 2012-09-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Daniel on Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:07 am

Never seen so much shit posted in one thread.

Honestly, Bogbrush usually has more sense than me than to indulge in this pure nonsense.

First, NITB...  Human biology and science are real.  I know you still believe in angels and gods... but learn that as we age, we lose a lot more than we gain.  That's why most players over 30 rarely win slams.

Second...  this talk of % 

%

%
%%%%%%%%
%%%

Will you please... FUCK OFF?

Or at the least... learn what a % is?  Or try?

If I play a game against my mate at our local club... I will win 72% of my service games.  And in 5 years... the figure on any given day could be the same.  We could both have improved.  Both stayed same. Both be worse. Both had a good day.  Both had a bad day (with him being worse).  But it tells you

NOTHING.  

REPEAT

NOTHING.  

About REAL TERM ABSOLUTES.

I may even win 90% + against my mate on every point...  So... I'm clearly ready to take on Federer, right?

How fast were we around the court on average.  How many 1st serves % in [not affected by opponent]. How fast were serves on average.  What were unforced error rate?

Players don't get better as they age.  They get worse.

Where were you weirdos when Nadal was getting caned 5 years on the trot at Wimbledon?  NITB... how does your logic work here?  Did Nadal... get worse for 5 years... then suddenly... get 10x better in a year?

You are talking so much fucking shit it's unreal.  And it's that much SHITE that even Bogbrush has been sucked in to it!  Doh

Bottom line, you are on Djok's cock. You want to elevate him to godhood, the same way Nadal fangirls cream their knickers over the balding, grunting, excuse making, injury feigning gargantuan twat.

Daniel

Posts : 3620
Join date : 2013-11-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Djokovic's greatest triumph

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum