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Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

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Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by DEC1M7 on Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:10 pm

With NITB having left the forum due to lobster-gate, and Tenez having grown so tired of Nadal's success that he's off to a remote French farm, many are worried that this forum will have a shortage of people to deliver expert analysis.

Need not worry.

With this article I will seek to answer the question all real tennis fans have been asking themselves: can Federer match Navratilova?

Martina Navratilova is currently the GOAT of Wimbledon, as she has won more Wimbledon titles than anyone else, 9. This is a picture of the current Wimbledon GOAT.



For Federer to achieve this too, he has an unenviable path ahead of him:
R4- Mannarino
Mannarino is known for his forehand slice, which could be dangerous for Federer, if Federer has a stroke.

QF- Anderson/Monfils
Anderson put up a heroic fight against Nadal in the US Open final last year, with 0 break points and once getting Nadal to deuce on his service game. Meanwhile Monfils is 31 years old, according to Tenez's theory he could be getting close to his peak. Could this tournament be the one for the enigmatic Frenchman?

SF- Raonic
Raonic has beaten Federer before in Wimbledon 2016, could he do it again? A scary thought for Federer fans.

F- Djokovic/ Nadal
Djokovic has managed to get past wonderkid Kyle Edmund in front of his home fans, and after this, he may feel unstoppable.
Meanwhile Nadal has beaten the likes of De Minaur and Kukushkin without losing a set, and will be hoping the Wimbledon ground staff don't water the grass like they did last year. Could we have a Fedal repeat 10 years on from the GMOAT?

I'm sorry if this article has alarmed Federer fans, but I'm sorry, the truth hurts.


Last edited by DEC1M7 on Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by Jahu on Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:30 pm

Good accurate & witty analysis, much better then the one a few weeks go where you analyzed that Nadal would lose RG.

So you saying Nadal will not reach Final?

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by summerblues on Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:01 pm

He is always saying that Nadal will not reach the final.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by DEC1M7 on Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:09 pm

Nadal could reach the final, but his chances are less than 50%. I will edit the article now to include this possibility- with NITB and Tenez gone I feel like there is huge responsibility on my shoulders to fill their shoes and satisfy the public.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by Jahu on Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:18 pm

I think you're feeling a little too much for shoes or public satisfaction  Laugh

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by naxroy on Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:27 pm

nadal can reach the final, and he can also be sent home today

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by Slippy on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:35 am

DEC1M7 wrote:Nadal could reach the final, but his chances are less than 50%. I will edit the article now to include this possibility- with NITB and Tenez gone I feel like there is huge responsibility on my shoulders to fill their shoes and satisfy the public.
Sounds fair. I’d say bottom half chances of making the final are about:

Djokovic 40%
Nadal 30%
Del Potro 20%
Other 10%

Top half is much more simple:

Federer 80%
Raonic 5%
Other 15%

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by summerblues on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:58 am

Slippy wrote:I’d say bottom half chances of making the final are about:

Djokovic 40%
Nadal 30%
Del Potro 20%
Other 10%

Top half is much more simple:

Federer 80%
Raonic 5%
Other 15%
I do not think this is crazy.  I have not seen any matches yet, but based on pre-Wimbledon form and on the scores + commentary, I would differ slightly:

I would give Nole less than 40% (maybe 20-30) and distribute the difference between Rafa/Delpo/field.

I would not give Fed quite 80%.  But still, I would clearly have him well above 50% (maybe around 70%?).  Rao at 5% seems about right smiley

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:58 am

Don’t forget Tsitsipas. The guy can play.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:49 am

Martina Navratilova is currently the GOAT of Wimbledon, as she has won more Wimbledon titles than anyone else, 9. This is a picture of the current Wimbledon GOAT. 

Haha... Laugh nice try, but you ignorance is showing up here Mr. expert.

 Navratilova doesn't play in the highest level of tennis. So her records doesn't count in the same league as Fed's. If someone wins 10-12 junior wimbledons, or wins 30 junior slams they don't feature in the GOAT debate.

ATP is the highest level of pro-tennis and unlike WTA ( which is only for women) it doesn't forbid women from competing in the league. So Navratilova or Serena all women can play and complete in ATP. But when they do not, their records will only stay within their league.

And what is this wimbledon GOAT thing? It seems like it hurts you that Nadal is only clay GOAT. ..  Nadal just won a slam..and that's why you are here, else you would be snoozing... so enjoy tennis and don't pretend to an expert.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by DEC1M7 on Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:29 am

Are you saying women are inferior to men ROTLA?
A mysogynistic argument from a bygone era, Tenez and NITB must be spinning in their OTF grave.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:39 am

DEC1M7 wrote:Are you saying women are inferior to men ROTLA?
A mysogynistic argument from a bygone era, Tenez and NITB must be spinning in their OTF grave.
Come on Amrit, this is barely Challenger level trolling. You can do better than this, you've learned from Masters!

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:35 pm

Dare I say Nadal fans are taking over the forum  Laugh Laugh Laugh 

The world's gone mad!

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:40 pm

Tell you what though, Martina sure looks like a bloke in that picture. We sure she only won in the women's draw?

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:42 pm

Mind you she won a stonking 344 career titles. 

Regardless of gender, that's insane!

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:44 pm

legendkillar wrote:Mind you she won a stonking 344 career titles. 

Regardless of gender, that's insane!
True, though with the womens game there's always room for someone who's physiology more closely resembles that of a man to dominate. That can't really happen with he men, not without chemical assistance  Run

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:48 pm

bogbrush wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Mind you she won a stonking 344 career titles. 

Regardless of gender, that's insane!
True, though with the womens game there's always room for someone who's physiology more closely resembles that of a man to dominate. That can't really happen with he men, not without chemical assistance  Run

The WTA for me is always decided by who has the strongest mentality. Shots are much of a likeness. 

Well Canas resembled Lou Ferrigno on a bad day! Can consider himself unlucky to miss out on the Marvel Cinema gravy train!

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by Slippy on Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:00 pm

Did I miss Expert Analysis 1-6 by the way?

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:41 am

DEC1M7 wrote:Are you saying women are inferior to men ROTLA?
A mysogynistic argument from a bygone era, Tenez and NITB must be spinning in their OTF grave.

Did you read my post? Do it again. I never mentioned anything about men or women. I am only trying to show the giant holes in your point about the number 9-wimbledon titles which you are bringing. Numbers don't matter. The GOAT debate will only be among the players playing at the highest level of tennis. 

Junior records, under-17 wins, only-women records and other restricted wins even if bigger than the records at the biggest stages of open tournaments, don't hold close. ATP players play in open circuit, WTA is closed women only circuit.

Let someone win 500 club titles, its not even equivalent to 1 ATP challenger title. Navratilova's 9 wimbledons count only where it was attained i.e. in women's circuit. When you start including mens, then they have NO value. Even Goran's 1 wimbledon is bigger open achievement than Navratilova's 9.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:17 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
DEC1M7 wrote:Are you saying women are inferior to men ROTLA?
A mysogynistic argument from a bygone era, Tenez and NITB must be spinning in their OTF grave.

Did you read my post? Do it again. I never mentioned anything about men or women. I am only trying to show the giant holes in your point about the number 9-wimbledon titles which you are bringing. Numbers don't matter. The GOAT debate will only be among the players playing at the highest level of tennis. 

Junior records, under-17 wins, only-women records and other restricted wins even if bigger than the records at the biggest stages of open tournaments, don't hold close. ATP players play in open circuit, WTA is closed women only circuit.

Let someone win 500 club titles, its not even equivalent to 1 ATP challenger title. Navratilova's 9 wimbledons count only where it was attained i.e. in women's circuit. When you start including mens, then they have NO value. Even Goran's 1 wimbledon is bigger open achievement than Navratilova's 9.

I understand your point (without necessarily agreeing - women can only sensibly compete against other women putting trans issues to one side), but is it even correct as a matter of the rules?  Are women permitted to play on the ATP if they are good enough?

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:28 am

Yes barry, ATP rule book doesn't state that one has to be a 'man' to play in ATP. I'm not sure has there ever been any woman who played or not. But its open across all genders.

WTA clearly states its 'women only' circuit. They have different point systems and also allow a coach on court during 90 sec break before change of ends ( WTA tournaments not Slams). 

So this women's only records stand only in women's only circuit. Open records claiming GOAT will have to be measured in open circuit. which is ATP.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:10 am

Very good points there and certainly highlights flaw in comparing men and women records side by side. 

Serena no doubt will have something to say on it.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:16 am

The records can't even be looked at together.

Clearly there are two classes of event.

1. The Open Tournament. Anyone can enter, it's open to all of humanity. This has always been won by a man.

2. The restricted tournaments, open only to boys, girls, old men, old women, disabled people, females. Entry to these is restricted in order to give people in those categories a fair chance.

I can think of two times when a person eligible for a restricted category entered the main event and won. The first was Boris Becker, when he was younger than that years Boys Champion, and the second was last year when Federer won while eligible to enter the older age event. Other posters may know of more.

I don't recall the records for any of these other events as they aren't really that important.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:59 am

bogbrush wrote:The records can't even be looked at together.

Clearly there are two classes of event.

1. The Open Tournament. Anyone can enter, it's open to all of humanity. This has always been won by a man.

2. The restricted tournaments, open only to boys, girls, old men, old women, disabled people, females. Entry to these is restricted in order to give people in those categories a fair chance.

I can think of two times when a person eligible for a restricted category entered the main event and won. The first was Boris Becker, when he was younger than that years Boys Champion, and the second was last year when Federer won while eligible to enter the older age event. Other posters may know of more.

I don't recall the records for any of these other events as they aren't really that important.

Are you really saying you don't recall who the most successful women players are?  Whilst accepting that they'd get nowhere on the men's tour, I think that the records of S. Williams, Evert, Graf, Navratilova &c &c are important and memorable.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by Slippy on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:12 am

Isn’t another way of looking at it that there is about a 50:50 split in the population between men and women. Surely it’s therefore just as impressive an achievement to be the best female tennis player on the planet as man? 

Of course, that isn’t justification for equal pay and doesn’t mean that it’s as good a product to watch. However, from a pure achievement perspective, it seems as good.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by DEC1M7 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:56 am

Slippy wrote:Isn’t another way of looking at it that there is about a 50:50 split in the population between men and women. Surely it’s therefore just as impressive an achievement to be the best female tennis player on the planet as man? 

Of course, that isn’t justification for equal pay and doesn’t mean that it’s as good a product to watch. However, from a pure achievement perspective, it seems as good.
Interesting perspective, I would add though that greater percentages of men take up tennis than women, which you have to take into account.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:37 pm

DEC1M7 wrote:
Slippy wrote:Isn’t another way of looking at it that there is about a 50:50 split in the population between men and women. Surely it’s therefore just as impressive an achievement to be the best female tennis player on the planet as man? 

Of course, that isn’t justification for equal pay and doesn’t mean that it’s as good a product to watch. However, from a pure achievement perspective, it seems as good.
Interesting perspective, I would add though that greater percentages of men take up tennis than women, which you have to take into account.

The way I see it is that the separation of men from women makes sense - there's no point making men and women compete on an equal footing.  Also, most sensible people want women to be as engaged in enjoyable and health-giving activities such as sport as men, so whilst everyone is entitled to personal preferences and we all know women cannot compete vs. men, there's no point in viewing women's sport as a less valid an endeavour per se than men's - tennis was perhaps the earliest sport to recognise this, and has most consistently done so since its foundation.

Since you can only beat what's in front of you so, and subject to the caveat that men and women are not comparable in terms of ability as well as my near consistent personal preference for watching the best men, I am happy to see an equivalence between the achievements of the women and the men at the top of the sport.

That's why I support equal pay at slams, but would not force equal exposure on the show courts onto a paying public and think that otherwise no free-lunch is owed to the WTA by the ATP and each branch outside the slams lives or dies on its own popularity.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by naxroy on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:45 pm

"€/point" shall be the same for both men and women

then, depending on how much you sell, sponsors will pay each one as much as they want, no matter the sex.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by Slippy on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:57 pm

What does “€\point” mean Naxroy?

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by DEC1M7 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:44 pm

barrystar wrote:
DEC1M7 wrote:
Slippy wrote:Isn’t another way of looking at it that there is about a 50:50 split in the population between men and women. Surely it’s therefore just as impressive an achievement to be the best female tennis player on the planet as man? 

Of course, that isn’t justification for equal pay and doesn’t mean that it’s as good a product to watch. However, from a pure achievement perspective, it seems as good.
Interesting perspective, I would add though that greater percentages of men take up tennis than women, which you have to take into account.

The way I see it is that the separation of men from women makes sense - there's no point making men and women compete on an equal footing.  Also, most sensible people want women to be as engaged in enjoyable and health-giving activities such as sport as men, so whilst everyone is entitled to personal preferences and we all know women cannot compete vs. men, there's no point in viewing women's sport as a less valid an endeavour per se than men's - tennis was perhaps the earliest sport to recognise this, and has most consistently done so since its foundation.

Since you can only beat what's in front of you so, and subject to the caveat that men and women are not comparable in terms of ability as well as my near consistent personal preference for watching the best men, I am happy to see an equivalence between the achievements of the women and the men at the top of the sport.

That's why I support equal pay at slams, but would not force equal exposure on the show courts onto a paying public and think that otherwise no free-lunch is owed to the WTA by the ATP and each branch outside the slams lives or dies on its own popularity.

I fully agree with this. No one is arguing women can beat men on absolute terms, but it's good for society if both men and women take up sport. Just because men can beat women doesn't make women's tennis pointless, by that argument when we have AI robots who can destroy all humans at tennis, will the ATP tour also become pointless?

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:46 pm

barrystar wrote:
DEC1M7 wrote:
Slippy wrote:Isn’t another way of looking at it that there is about a 50:50 split in the population between men and women. Surely it’s therefore just as impressive an achievement to be the best female tennis player on the planet as man? 

Of course, that isn’t justification for equal pay and doesn’t mean that it’s as good a product to watch. However, from a pure achievement perspective, it seems as good.
Interesting perspective, I would add though that greater percentages of men take up tennis than women, which you have to take into account.

The way I see it is that the separation of men from women makes sense - there's no point making men and women compete on an equal footing.  Also, most sensible people want women to be as engaged in enjoyable and health-giving activities such as sport as men, so whilst everyone is entitled to personal preferences and we all know women cannot compete vs. men, there's no point in viewing women's sport as a less valid an endeavour per se than men's - tennis was perhaps the earliest sport to recognise this, and has most consistently done so since its foundation.

Since you can only beat what's in front of you so, and subject to the caveat that men and women are not comparable in terms of ability as well as my near consistent personal preference for watching the best men, I am happy to see an equivalence between the achievements of the women and the men at the top of the sport.

That's why I support equal pay at slams, but would not force equal exposure on the show courts onto a paying public and think that otherwise no free-lunch is owed to the WTA by the ATP and each branch outside the slams lives or dies on its own popularity.

See I don't support equal pay at the Slams. Not because of commercial or marketing reasons, but because of the 3 and 5 sets argument. I don't blame the players for this, but the governing bodies and the Slams for not making the sets universal across the board. It would be the equivalent of someone being paid a 40 hour working week for doing 30 hours. It's my only gripe and yes might seem trivial or even petty, but men having to play more than women, where's the equality in that.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:51 pm

barrystar wrote:
bogbrush wrote:The records can't even be looked at together.

Clearly there are two classes of event.

1. The Open Tournament. Anyone can enter, it's open to all of humanity. This has always been won by a man.

2. The restricted tournaments, open only to boys, girls, old men, old women, disabled people, females. Entry to these is restricted in order to give people in those categories a fair chance.

I can think of two times when a person eligible for a restricted category entered the main event and won. The first was Boris Becker, when he was younger than that years Boys Champion, and the second was last year when Federer won while eligible to enter the older age event. Other posters may know of more.

I don't recall the records for any of these other events as they aren't really that important.

Are you really saying you don't recall who the most successful women players are?  Whilst accepting that they'd get nowhere on the men's tour, I think that the records of S. Williams, Evert, Graf, Navratilova &c &c are important and memorable.
I don't recall the wheelchair records either, and I think it's very discriminatory why we celebrate the special event for females while ignoring those for other marginalised groups.

Obviously I remember the open event records, these are very important.

I'm also a big fan of equal pay for all the specialised events; boys, wheelchair, womens, etc.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:58 pm

legendkillar wrote:
barrystar wrote:
DEC1M7 wrote:
Slippy wrote:Isn’t another way of looking at it that there is about a 50:50 split in the population between men and women. Surely it’s therefore just as impressive an achievement to be the best female tennis player on the planet as man? 

Of course, that isn’t justification for equal pay and doesn’t mean that it’s as good a product to watch. However, from a pure achievement perspective, it seems as good.
Interesting perspective, I would add though that greater percentages of men take up tennis than women, which you have to take into account.

The way I see it is that the separation of men from women makes sense - there's no point making men and women compete on an equal footing.  Also, most sensible people want women to be as engaged in enjoyable and health-giving activities such as sport as men, so whilst everyone is entitled to personal preferences and we all know women cannot compete vs. men, there's no point in viewing women's sport as a less valid an endeavour per se than men's - tennis was perhaps the earliest sport to recognise this, and has most consistently done so since its foundation.

Since you can only beat what's in front of you so, and subject to the caveat that men and women are not comparable in terms of ability as well as my near consistent personal preference for watching the best men, I am happy to see an equivalence between the achievements of the women and the men at the top of the sport.

That's why I support equal pay at slams, but would not force equal exposure on the show courts onto a paying public and think that otherwise no free-lunch is owed to the WTA by the ATP and each branch outside the slams lives or dies on its own popularity.

See I don't support equal pay at the Slams. Not because of commercial or marketing reasons, but because of the 3 and 5 sets argument. I don't blame the players for this, but the governing bodies and the Slams for not making the sets universal across the board. It would be the equivalent of someone being paid a 40 hour working week for doing 30 hours. It's my only gripe and yes might seem trivial or even petty, but men having to play more than women, where's the equality in that.

I don't want the men to drop to bo3, and if the women went to bo5 the scheduling would be a nightmare, particularly at Wimbledon on the live surface of grass, so I don't think it's a worthwhile argument to bring up because the only solutions are unacceptable (as well as not entirely consistent when you see some of the straight-sets massacres doled out by the likes of Fed).  Much better to leave things as they are.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:40 pm

barrystar wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
barrystar wrote:
DEC1M7 wrote:
Slippy wrote:Isn’t another way of looking at it that there is about a 50:50 split in the population between men and women. Surely it’s therefore just as impressive an achievement to be the best female tennis player on the planet as man? 

Of course, that isn’t justification for equal pay and doesn’t mean that it’s as good a product to watch. However, from a pure achievement perspective, it seems as good.
Interesting perspective, I would add though that greater percentages of men take up tennis than women, which you have to take into account.

The way I see it is that the separation of men from women makes sense - there's no point making men and women compete on an equal footing.  Also, most sensible people want women to be as engaged in enjoyable and health-giving activities such as sport as men, so whilst everyone is entitled to personal preferences and we all know women cannot compete vs. men, there's no point in viewing women's sport as a less valid an endeavour per se than men's - tennis was perhaps the earliest sport to recognise this, and has most consistently done so since its foundation.

Since you can only beat what's in front of you so, and subject to the caveat that men and women are not comparable in terms of ability as well as my near consistent personal preference for watching the best men, I am happy to see an equivalence between the achievements of the women and the men at the top of the sport.

That's why I support equal pay at slams, but would not force equal exposure on the show courts onto a paying public and think that otherwise no free-lunch is owed to the WTA by the ATP and each branch outside the slams lives or dies on its own popularity.

See I don't support equal pay at the Slams. Not because of commercial or marketing reasons, but because of the 3 and 5 sets argument. I don't blame the players for this, but the governing bodies and the Slams for not making the sets universal across the board. It would be the equivalent of someone being paid a 40 hour working week for doing 30 hours. It's my only gripe and yes might seem trivial or even petty, but men having to play more than women, where's the equality in that.

I don't want the men to drop to bo3, and if the women went to bo5 the scheduling would be a nightmare, particularly at Wimbledon on the live surface of grass, so I don't think it's a worthwhile argument to bring up because the only solutions are unacceptable (as well as not entirely consistent when you see some of the straight-sets massacres doled out by the likes of Fed).  Much better to leave things as they are.

They could manage it barry. God a tweak of the schedule wouldn't be catastrophic. I wouldn't have an issue with mens matches being a BO3, wouldn't in my mind impact on the quality element either. 

Sticking with tradition for the sake of it is rather lame. Adds nothing of noteworthy value to the event.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm

Look at some of the 5 set classics to see how it's been turned around from 0-2 or 1-2 down - chucking that out for the sake of justifying equal pay strikes me as taking a mighty sledgehammer to crack a nut.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:50 pm

How many classics are there though?? Borg/McEnroe, Federer/Nadal, Isner/Mahut. Come on. In what nearly 50 years of the pro am that's all most remember.

Thinking of 'classics' isn't vast and plentiful and is seemingly desperate when most would probably trot out those 3 if asked on the spot. 

It's not 5 setters that sell the Slams to the masses. We'll see that when Fedal departs.

And anyways, this was more of why I oppose "equal pay" at the Slams, rather than lets reset everything because of it.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:00 pm

legendkillar wrote:How many classics are there though?? Borg/McEnroe, Federer/Nadal, Isner/Mahut. Come on. In what nearly 50 years of the pro am that's all most remember.

Thinking of 'classics' isn't vast and plentiful and is seemingly desperate when most would probably trot out those 3 if asked on the spot. 

It's not 5 setters that sell the Slams to the masses. We'll see that when Fedal departs.

And anyways, this was more of why I oppose "equal pay" at the Slams, rather than lets reset everything because of it.

This is not a credible position to adopt -you say that women mustn't have 'equal pay' because of an historical anomaly that's not their fault.  You can't combine such a position with a statement that you don't want to reset.  Either you budge on equal pay or you cannot resist when women agitate for a change that will entitle them to equal pay in your eyes.

Which is it to be?

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:12 pm

barrystar wrote:
legendkillar wrote:How many classics are there though?? Borg/McEnroe, Federer/Nadal, Isner/Mahut. Come on. In what nearly 50 years of the pro am that's all most remember.

Thinking of 'classics' isn't vast and plentiful and is seemingly desperate when most would probably trot out those 3 if asked on the spot. 

It's not 5 setters that sell the Slams to the masses. We'll see that when Fedal departs.

And anyways, this was more of why I oppose "equal pay" at the Slams, rather than lets reset everything because of it.

This is not a credible position to adopt -you say that women mustn't have 'equal pay' because of an historical anomaly that's not their fault.  You can't combine such a position with a statement that you don't want to reset.  Either you budge on equal pay or you cannot resist when women agitate for a change that will entitle them to equal pay in your eyes.

Which is it to be?

It absolutely is a credible position. Again how is it a historical anomaly? It was by all accounts a contracted position. The terms. I stated it wasn't there fault earlier on. And yes I can combine a position which doesn't want reset to my view on the perceived 'equal pay'. I said why I didn't support 'equal pay' at the Slams for that reason and stated as much. I gave scenario's that could draw that gap closely to create the 'equal' playing field. 

My position is clear. You don't have to agree or like. That's your problem, not mine. 

And anyways, you stated earlier that women and men shouldn't compete on an equal footing, but support equal pay. That to me isn't a credible position.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by Slippy on Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:27 pm

I’d be very reluctant to lose bo5 in the men and I would have thought having bo5 in the women’s would be near impossible logistically. The compromise would be to have bo3 in the early rounds and bo5 from say QF onwards. 

As it is, my understanding is the WTA would be prepared to play best of 5 if required. However, it’s the slams which prefer to maintain the status quo. I struggle to therefore use the length of matches as a reason to justify a difference in pay.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:32 pm

Wouldn't be impossible. Just extend the Slams by a week. Grass might be cutting it fine given the nature of the surface for sure, but that could be something explored to extending the longevity of Grass. 

You are right. The WTA and many of the players have gone on record saying they would play BO5. 

Make it happen I say.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by naxroy on Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:30 pm

naxroy wrote:"€/point" shall be the same for both men and women

then, depending on how much you sell, sponsors will pay each one as much as they want, no matter the sex.


I meant same money for the same achievement in the same event or same category:

slam: same price money for women or men who get to semi finals... and so on

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:01 pm

legendkillar wrote:
barrystar wrote:
legendkillar wrote:How many classics are there though?? Borg/McEnroe, Federer/Nadal, Isner/Mahut. Come on. In what nearly 50 years of the pro am that's all most remember.

Thinking of 'classics' isn't vast and plentiful and is seemingly desperate when most would probably trot out those 3 if asked on the spot. 

It's not 5 setters that sell the Slams to the masses. We'll see that when Fedal departs.

And anyways, this was more of why I oppose "equal pay" at the Slams, rather than lets reset everything because of it.

This is not a credible position to adopt -you say that women mustn't have 'equal pay' because of an historical anomaly that's not their fault.  You can't combine such a position with a statement that you don't want to reset.  Either you budge on equal pay or you cannot resist when women agitate for a change that will entitle them to equal pay in your eyes.

Which is it to be?

It absolutely is a credible position. Again how is it a historical anomaly? It was by all accounts a contracted position. The terms. I stated it wasn't there fault earlier on. And yes I can combine a position which doesn't want reset to my view on the perceived 'equal pay'. I said why I didn't support 'equal pay' at the Slams for that reason and stated as much. I gave scenario's that could draw that gap closely to create the 'equal' playing field. 

My position is clear. You don't have to agree or like. That's your problem, not mine. 

And anyways, you stated earlier that women and men shouldn't compete on an equal footing, but support equal pay. That to me isn't a credible position.

Your position as I understand it is that equal pay is wrong when men play bo5 and women play bo3, but you accept that's not women's fault.  It is implicit in your position that if they paid teh same they could get the same - is that right?  If I am right, then you base your position on a historical anomaly that men play a different length game to women.  It is not a credible position if (and again I may be wrong) you wish to keep the status quo of unequal pay due to different match lengths by requiring women to continue to play under that regime which you accept is not of their making - your position is no answer to the response, "well, let's have men and women play the same length of game'.  The logical conclusion of your position is that you have to choose one of three alternatives: (i) you abandon your position on equal pay based on bo5 vs. bo3 (ii) you shorten the men's game (iii) you lengthen the women's.

It's not really anyone's problem that we disagree - this is supposed to be a discussion.


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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:04 pm

legendkillar wrote:Wouldn't be impossible. Just extend the Slams by a week. Grass might be cutting it fine given the nature of the surface for sure, but that could be something explored to extending the longevity of Grass. 

You are right. The WTA and many of the players have gone on record saying they would play BO5. 

Make it happen I say.

All this, requiring alterations reducing up to 4 weeks from the calendars of two different tours - possibly 16 lesser tournaments going just to meet your justification for equal pay?

Surely it's better just to pay men and women the same amount for equivalent achievements in their respective fields and accept that the bo3 vs. bo5 differential is not a very good reason for taking a 'principled' stance?

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:29 pm

If I might just interject with a little bit of basic common sense? It might help to focus on the issues.

Womens tennis is low standard rubbish that I wouldn’t cross the road to watch and any viewing of the crowd and prices at Wimbledon bears me out.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:30 pm

bb, with your incisive logic you are killing me Laugh

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:54 pm

barrystar wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
barrystar wrote:
legendkillar wrote:How many classics are there though?? Borg/McEnroe, Federer/Nadal, Isner/Mahut. Come on. In what nearly 50 years of the pro am that's all most remember.

Thinking of 'classics' isn't vast and plentiful and is seemingly desperate when most would probably trot out those 3 if asked on the spot. 

It's not 5 setters that sell the Slams to the masses. We'll see that when Fedal departs.

And anyways, this was more of why I oppose "equal pay" at the Slams, rather than lets reset everything because of it.

This is not a credible position to adopt -you say that women mustn't have 'equal pay' because of an historical anomaly that's not their fault.  You can't combine such a position with a statement that you don't want to reset.  Either you budge on equal pay or you cannot resist when women agitate for a change that will entitle them to equal pay in your eyes.

Which is it to be?

It absolutely is a credible position. Again how is it a historical anomaly? It was by all accounts a contracted position. The terms. I stated it wasn't there fault earlier on. And yes I can combine a position which doesn't want reset to my view on the perceived 'equal pay'. I said why I didn't support 'equal pay' at the Slams for that reason and stated as much. I gave scenario's that could draw that gap closely to create the 'equal' playing field. 

My position is clear. You don't have to agree or like. That's your problem, not mine. 

And anyways, you stated earlier that women and men shouldn't compete on an equal footing, but support equal pay. That to me isn't a credible position.

Your position as I understand it is that equal pay is wrong when men play bo5 and women play bo3, but you accept that's not women's fault.  It is implicit in your position that if they paid teh same they could get the same - is that right?  If I am right, then you base your position on a historical anomaly that men play a different length game to women.  It is not a credible position if (and again I may be wrong) you wish to keep the status quo of unequal pay due to different match lengths by requiring women to continue to play under that regime which you accept is not of their making - your position is no answer to the response, "well, let's have men and women play the same length of game'.  The logical conclusion of your position is that you have to choose one of three alternatives: (i) you abandon your position on equal pay based on bo5 vs. bo3 (ii) you shorten the men's game (iii) you lengthen the women's.

It's not really anyone's problem that we disagree - this is supposed to be a discussion.

I'll explain with the upmost clarity. Yes my belief is that men who play a BO5 and women who play BO3 is wrong. Think of it like this barry. It would be like women's major golf in which they play 9 holes instead of 18. Format. Forget time, because I see this potential counter (Well Federer could play 7 3 setters opposed to a Woman who could play the equivalent and spend more time on court) which I will say is flawed logic, because time isn't the issue, but the format. I stress again barry, forget the time, but focus on 'format' so thus my position is entirely credible as I have just gave an example of comparable scenario. Women's football they play 90 minutes, Women's golf 18 holes. I'd have no issue with 'equal pay' in those scenarios. You could argue they are held as standalone events and not held together, however we get to the crux of the matter if I suggested well give the ladies standalone events not held at the same time as men Winking 

To the 3 positions I'd be open to either. I'd probably go as far as to either select ii or iii. Either one doesn't bother me as I am not one for nostalgic crap which on the face of it, people who attend don't really give a fig about.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:00 pm

barrystar wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Wouldn't be impossible. Just extend the Slams by a week. Grass might be cutting it fine given the nature of the surface for sure, but that could be something explored to extending the longevity of Grass. 

You are right. The WTA and many of the players have gone on record saying they would play BO5. 

Make it happen I say.

All this, requiring alterations reducing up to 4 weeks from the calendars of two different tours - possibly 16 lesser tournaments going just to meet your justification for equal pay?

Surely it's better just to pay men and women the same amount for equivalent achievements in their respective fields and accept that the bo3 vs. bo5 differential is not a very good reason for taking a 'principled' stance?

For Christ's sake barry. You said couldn't be done for rather meaningless and unimaginative reasons. I proposed solutions. 4 weeks isn't going to break the tour is it? Other sporting events have made changes which incorporates more time and logistics. It's not difficult.

Honestly, I never knew pushing an event out would really cause that much aggro. 

It's all moot anyway. Because nothing will change. But for the record, paying people the same isn't making things all equal. It just helps silence and satisfy those who believe being paid the same is the be and end of all things equality which on the face of it really isn't and is limited in perspective.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:02 pm

bogbrush wrote:If I might just interject with a little bit of basic common sense? It might help to focus on the issues.

Womens tennis is low standard rubbish that I wouldn’t cross the road to watch and any viewing of the crowd and prices at Wimbledon bears me out.

Because me and barry would've debated for nothing  Wah 

And it destroys equality  Laugh

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

Post by summerblues on Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:06 am

Slippy wrote:Isn’t another way of looking at it that there is about a 50:50 split in the population between men and women. Surely it’s therefore just as impressive an achievement to be the best female tennis player on the planet as man?
I agree with the premise of this, i.e.,  the notion that the achievement on women's side may be no less than men's even though women would have no chance vs men.

This is not unlike in boxing, where it is not always the heavyweights that are deemed most impressive.

That said, I would not say that 50/50 split in population is enough to deem both equally impressive.  I suspect that a bigger portion of men than women take competitive tennis seriously and thus women's competition is probably thinner.

As you also say, none of this has any bearing on whether male and female players should be paid the same.

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Re: Expert Analysis 7: Can Federer emulate Navratilova at Wimbledon to win No.9?

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